What are your views on Multiculturalism in Ireland? - Threadbanned User List in OP

fantaiscool

Deleted User wrote: »

Except, that's not what he said. You could consider the context that he provided, as being relevant to his statement.

I don't think you grasped what he was getting at in that post.

ollkiller

I grew up in and lived in castlebar till I was 35. Lived beside 4 different traveller families in that time. 2 families were rough as feck, and 2 were bang on sound. Kinda of the same experience I had with settled families. Would I live beside a halting site. No. But they're not all bad.

RobbieTheRobber

Deleted User wrote: »

Except, that's not what he said. You could consider the context that he provided, as being relevant to his statement.

I didn't say he said it. I said it!
I think you need to take my post in the context of the words in the post I was quoting.

fantaiscool

fantaiscool wrote: »

I don't think you grasped what he was getting at in that post.

Oh, I understood it quite well... I don't necessarily agree with him, but. I don't see the need to misrepresent what he posted, or reinterpret it.

RobbieTheRobber wrote: »

I didn't say he said it. I said it!
I think you need to take my post in the context of the words in the post I was quoting.

I can see you're struggling to understand what context means. Simply repeating it back to me doesn't make your point any better.

ollkiller

ollkiller wrote: »

I grew up in and lived in castlebar till I was 35. Lived beside 4 different traveller families in that time. 2 families were rough as feck, and 2 were bang on sound. Kinda of the same experience I had with settled families. Would I live beside a halting site. No. But they're not all bad.

And.. I grew up in Athlone in the 70s/80s, and spent a fair bit of time in both Longford, Mullingar, and Roscommon. Later, I lived in Tipperary, and Limerick.

Plenty of experience with Travellers throughout my youth and adulthood. Most of it was actually quite neutral since my family (as teachers) were well respected by most of them. Went to school with them, had my share of fights with them, and got pissed drunk/stoned with a variety of them. I've also taught them, myself, as part of adult literacy courses. Some are great, many are little different from other Irish people, and quite a few should never be allowed outside of a jail cell.

I honestly don't know what point you're trying to make... beyond perhaps the suggestion that since some are fine, the remainder shouldn't be judged? That we should simply support that culture because some turned out okay, in spite of all the odds stacked against them in doing so?

As a culture, Traveller culture shouldn't be supported, and should be allowed to fade away, because without government supports, it's simply not viable for success in a modern nation. As a people, Travellers themselves, should be encouraged to move away from that culture and embrace the same modern culture we all live in... again.. without the expectation that others will continue to bail them out for their chosen lifestyle. (I know a few successful Travellers who have split from the pack.. so there is a choice involved, and they're not completely stuck in living a certain way).

RobbieTheRobber

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Oh, I understood it quite well... I don't necessarily agree with him, but. I don't see the need to misrepresent what he posted, or reinterpret it.



I can see you're struggling to understand what context means. Simply repeating it back to me doesn't make your point any better.

I didn't repeat it. I typed it, emboldened it and even underlined it.
And I certainly didn't struggle to understand it. In fact I meant exactly this meaning as returned by Google when looking for the definition of the word context.

the parts of something written or spoken that immediately precede and follow a word or passage and clarify its meaning

That is the exact meaning I intended when I used the word.

Go back and read the post. That's posters personal limited experience trumps other people limited experience. Im not sure if it wasn't meant in sarcasm as it was such a self contradictory post. Maybe jmayo will comeback and explain his joke post for us all.

RobbieTheRobber

RobbieTheRobber wrote: »

Go back and read the post..

I did. No change in opinion.

RobbieTheRobber

[Deleted User] wrote: »

I did. No change in opinion.

The interesting thing about that is I don't really care about your opinion.

The facts are there to see the hilarity of JMayos post. I made my comment on it and I'm done. You can deny things he said being there but they are there and I even quoted it for ease.
So ho hum.

RobbieTheRobber

[Deleted User] wrote: »

I honestly don't know what point you're trying to make... beyond perhaps the suggestion that since some are fine, the remainder shouldn't be judged?

Probably something similar to what Martin luther King was suggesting here.

"I look to a day when people will not be judged by the color of their skin, but by the content of their character."

RobbieTheRobber

RobbieTheRobber wrote: »

Probably something similar to what Martin luther King was suggesting here.

"I look to a day when people will not be judged by the color of their skin, but by the content of their character."

Except that Travellers are essentially the same race as Irish people. They just have a different culture.

In any case, I find that people are very willing to be judged on their race/group when it involves receiving benefits, but when there's any manner of criticism, then, we shouldn't. Awfully convenient that.

RobbieTheRobber

RobbieTheRobber wrote: »

The interesting thing about that is I don't really care about your opinion.

Oh, I'm not surprised, and wouldn't consider it particularly interesting. Your manner of posting on the thread has shown you have little respect for others opinions.

Still.. little point in continuing this line of conversation. I said my piece on it. Moving on.

[Deleted User]

[Deleted User] wrote: »

In any case, I find that people are very willing to be judged on their race/group when it involves receiving benefits, but when there's any manner of criticism, then, we shouldn't. Awfully convenient that.

This doesn't really make sense........what do you mean by this?

RobbieTheRobber

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Oh, I'm not surprised, and wouldn't consider it particularly interesting. Your manner of posting on the thread has shown you have little respect for others opinions.

Still.. little point in continuing this line of conversation. I said my piece on it. Moving on.

I had my fun and that's all that matters.

bubblypop

bubblypop wrote: »

This doesn't really make sense........what do you mean by this?

It's obvious enough. TBH I can't see how to make it a simpler statement.

[Deleted User]

[Deleted User] wrote: »

It's obvious enough. TBH I can't see how to make it a simpler statement.

Well the way it reads, you seem to think people receive benefits based on their race, but you know that's not the case, so it must mean something else.

bubblypop

bubblypop wrote: »

Well the way it reads, you seem to think people receive benefits based on their race, but you know that's not the case, so it must mean something else.

"Taoiseach Enda Kenny has announced formal recognition for Travellers as a distinct ethnic group within the State".

From 2010, but still relevant to the discussion"The first examination of funding for Traveller groups in several years has revealed that last year the State provided more than €130m for a variety of projects. This is aside from the social welfare and unemployment benefits paid out to the estimated 30,000 Travellers in the country"

"A total of €14.5 million was allocated for local authorities to spend on Traveller accommodation for 2020, and almost €15 million has been spent."

There's a lot of other areas of funding, and benefits which are directed at Travellers as a distinct ethnic group... ie their race.

Also.. my previous statement was not about them receiving funding based on their race, but rather the perspective that it's bad to criticise Travellers because individuals are sometimes different from the group, but it's perfectly fine to assess them as a group when it comes to providing benefits.

So, they get a free pass as a group because of group circumstances, but can't be criticised as a group because of individual circumstances.

[Deleted User]

[Deleted User] wrote: »

So, they get a free pass as a group because of group circumstances, but can't be criticised as a group because of individual circumstances.

Ok.
There is not much a traveller can do about being born a traveller. So they are part of a group through birth, and no action in their part.
Also, there's not much a traveller can do about the behaviour of other travellers. So again, no action in their part.

So yes, it is wrong to criticise individuals based on others behaviour, and at the same time it is ok for them to receive whatever funding the government decides, because of the group they find themselves born into.

bubblypop

bubblypop wrote: »

Ok.
There is not much a traveller can do about being born a traveller. So they are part of a group through birth, and no action in their part.
Also, there's not much a traveller can do about the behaviour of other travellers. So again, no action in their part.

So yes, it is wrong to criticise individuals based on others behaviour, and at the same time it is ok for them to receive whatever funding the government decides, because of the group they find themselves born into.

A group that they are not restricted from leaving, nor are there any requirements on that group living in a particular manner. Also it's a group that is not in any way different from being born poor in Ireland... except that the poor don't gain any special recognition beyond being poor and being a 'normal' Irish citizen. (and in many cases, Travellers can have quite a reasonable income, all things considered)

I'll stand by my original statement, rather than the paragraphs you've been slowly evolving towards a different meaning.

"In any case, I find that people are very willing to be judged on their race/group when it involves receiving benefits, but when there's any manner of criticism, then, we shouldn't. Awfully convenient that."

You cannot leave what you are born into. You know that.
It's not a group meeting at the scout hall. If you are born a traveller, then you are a traveller. No matter what you do in life.
Whether they get educated and settle down with a job, or stay living in a halting site, they are still travellers.

bubblypop

bubblypop wrote: »

You cannot leave what you are born into. You know that.

When it comes to a distinct race, with physical differences, yes.. I agree with you.

However. Travellers are white. No real genetic difference from other Irish people. It's a cultural group as opposed to a biological one.

"Although they are often referred to as "Gypsies", Irish Travellers are not genetically related to the Romani. Genetic analysis has shown Travellers to be of Irish extraction, and that they likely diverged from the settled Irish population in the 1600s, during the time of the Cromwellian conquest of Ireland."

It's not a group meeting at the scout hall. If you are born a traveller, then you are a traveller. No matter what you do in life.
Whether they get educated and settle down with a job, or stay living in a halting site, they are still travellers.

Nope. That's you assigning a fixed identity to them.

I know people who were born into Traveller families. They chose to educate themselves, took speech and language therapy, and moved away from the local areas where their families are from, are fully employed and have since had children with no connection to the Traveller culture. They're indistinguishable from other Irish people. You couldn't look at them, and say, "They're Travellers".

Well, you could, but you'd be relying on pure luck as opposed to any physical or other signs to give their heritage away.

[Deleted User]

[Deleted User] wrote: »

When it comes to a distinct race, with physical differences, yes.. I agree with you.

However. Travellers are white. No real genetic difference from other Irish people. It's a cultural group as opposed to a biological one.

"Although they are often referred to as "Gypsies", Irish Travellers are not genetically related to the Romani. Genetic analysis has shown Travellers to be of Irish extraction, and that they likely diverged from the settled Irish population in the 1600s, during the time of the Cromwellian conquest of Ireland."



Nope. That's you assigning a fixed identity to them.

I know people who were born into Traveller families. They chose to educate themselves, took speech and language therapy, and moved away from the local areas where their families are from, are fully employed and have since had children with no connection to the Traveller culture. They're indistinguishable from other Irish people. You couldn't look at them, and say, "They're Travellers".

Well, you could, but you'd be relying on pure luck as opposed to any physical or other signs to give their heritage away.

Travellers are a recognised ethnic group.
I also know travellers who were educated and have jobs.
They are still travellers. They are still part of an ethnic minority. They are entitled to live their life completely separately to other travellers.
They are still part of that group. It really doesn't matter if you can't tell by looking!

When you mean 'distinct race with physical differences ' what do you mean exactly?

[Deleted User]

[Deleted User] wrote: »

When it comes to a distinct race, with physical differences, yes.. I agree with you.

However. Travellers are white. No real genetic difference from other Irish people. It's a cultural group as opposed to a biological one.

"Although they are often referred to as "Gypsies", Irish Travellers are not genetically related to the Romani. Genetic analysis has shown Travellers to be of Irish extraction, and that they likely diverged from the settled Irish population in the 1600s, during the time of the Cromwellian conquest of Ireland."



Nope. That's you assigning a fixed identity to them.

I know people who were born into Traveller families. They chose to educate themselves, took speech and language therapy, and moved away from the local areas where their families are from, are fully employed and have since had children with no connection to the Traveller culture. They're indistinguishable from other Irish people. You couldn't look at them, and say, "They're Travellers".

Well, you could, but you'd be relying on pure luck as opposed to any physical or other signs to give their heritage away.

Travellers are a recognised ethnic group.
I also know travellers who were educated and have jobs.
They are still travellers. They are still part of an ethnic minority. They are entitled to live their life completely separately to other travellers.
They are still part of that group. It really doesn't matter if you can't tell by looking!

When you mean 'distinct race with physical differences ' what do you mean exactly?

bubblypop

bubblypop wrote: »

Travellers are a recognised ethnic group.

I know. I posted the link to when they became such.

You might want to reread what you posted, and what I responded to. Remember your claim that they didn't receive any benefits for being Travellers?

I also know travellers who were educated and have jobs.
They are still travellers. They are still part of an ethnic minority. They are entitled to live their life completely separately to other travellers.
They are still part of that group. It really doesn't matter if you can't tell by looking!

Nah. I see little point in repeating myself.

When you mean 'distinct race with physical differences ' what do you mean exactly?

Seriously? You want everything spelled out to you? Racially different. Different skin color. There being genetic differences as a group vs another group. Distinct.

Travellers receiving their distinct ethnic status was a political stunt, rather than anything backed up by hard science. As I have said before, the difference is cultural rather than biological.

Hell, the English are more different to Irish people than Travellers are to Irish people.

[Deleted User]

[Deleted User] wrote: »

I know. I posted the link to when they became such.

You might want to reread what you posted, and what I responded to. Remember your claim that they didn't receive any benefits for being Travellers?



Nah. I see little point in repeating myself.



Seriously? You want everything spelled out to you? Racially different. Different skin color. There being genetic differences as a group vs another group. Distinct.

Travellers receiving their distinct ethnic status was a political stunt, rather than anything backed up by hard science. As I have said before, the difference is cultural rather than biological.

Hell, the English are more different to Irish people than Travellers are to Irish people.

So.
People who have a different skin colour are different?

WrenBoy

bubblypop wrote: »

So.
People who have a different skin colour are different?

You may have answered your own question.

People with different hair colour are also different.

RobbieTheRobber

Deleted User wrote: »

I know. I posted the link to when they became such.

You might want to reread what you posted, and what I responded to. Remember your claim that they didn't receive any benefits for being Travellers?



Nah. I see little point in repeating myself.



Seriously? You want everything spelled out to you? Racially different. Different skin color. There being genetic differences as a group vs another group. Distinct.

Travellers receiving their distinct ethnic status was a political stunt, rather than anything backed up by hard science. As I have said before, the difference is cultural rather than biological.

Hell, the English are more different to Irish people than Travellers are to Irish people.

Our bodies have 3 billion genetic building blocks, or base pairs, that make us who we are. And of those 3 billion base pairs, only a tiny amount are unique to us, making us about 99.9% genetically similar to the next human.

[Deleted User]

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Seriously? You want everything spelled out to you? Racially different. Different skin color. There being genetic differences as a group vs another group. Distinct.

From your wiki link

'The centuries of separation has led to Travellers becoming genetically distinct from the settled Irish.'

bubblypop

bubblypop wrote: »

So.
People who have a different skin colour are different?

Good lord...

Okay. You've convinced me. Permanent ignore. I'm done.

yaknowski

Tis ulitmately about cheap labour for business isn't it. Drove down to McDonalds for some breakfast. Three Mid-40s South-Asian lads sitting outside in their cars waiting for delivery.
Good luck to them earning a crust, but really it's only for big business' benefit and the taxpayer is on the hook for the rest of the costs associated with living here.

RobbieTheRobber

Deleted User wrote: »

Good lord...

Okay. You've convinced me. Permanent ignore. I'm done.

If I go on holiday to Spain and get a tan am I a different person?