What are your views on Multiculturalism in Ireland? - Threadbanned User List in OP

olestoepoke

Tony EH wrote: »

There are lots of people that aren't "represented" in the cartoon. There are no old people for example.

As for "imagining", IMO there are too many people imagining things, instead of just getting on with it.

You don't need to see yourself represented in every image you view.

Look, I'll hazard a guess at to what's happened here, because I've seen things like this before. This is, more than likely, a quick image rattled off by a 20 something female designer who, more often than not, doesn't include men or old folk in her design considerations and doesn't get enough of a deadline to give a crap.

I thought the poster is for returning to childcare and thus aimed at people with young kids so kind of makes sense there are no old people in it.

Tony EH

olestoepoke wrote: »

I thought the poster is for returning to childcare and thus aimed at people with young kids so kind of makes sense there are no old people in it.

There are plenty of grandparents bringing their grandkids to childcare and school every morning.

biko

Swedish economists have stated that India, Jordan and Bangladesh are among the least tolerant countries in the world, while Britain is among the most accepting.


https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/10061025/Worlds-most-racially-intolerant-countries-mapped.html

Slowyourrole

Wibbs wrote: »

This old chestnut. Again. A) the US is a former colony that was born and bred on immigration. It quite simply couldn't have existed without it. 2) Even so note today now they have enough people how much harder it is to get into the place and they don't like illegals too much and that attitude is hardening in some quarters. 3) The Irish in America had their fair share of negatives as well as positives attached(like many other groups). 4) America is and certainly was a "White" European nation and culture and the Irish being of that hue found it much easier to assimilate over the generations when compared to Blacks and Hispanics, even Italians to some degree(Asians tended to do their own thing, without generating much in the way of attention for the most part). 5) America is hardly a good example to hold up of social issues along ethnic and race lines. 6) When the Irish and others arrived in America there were no "free lunches" and the only social welfare was charity. Comparing an Irish immigrant to the US in the 1840's and a Nigerian illegal immigrant to Ireland in 2000 who is living in a taxpayer council house today. Well there is little comparison.

I figured you wouldn't give a direct answer to the question. You claimed small numbers fit in but large numbers didn't. This is completely discounted by our own ancestors. They went to the States in big numbers with their own culture and integrated into US society in a way which appears to have benefited both. So much so that they celebrate our national holiday in a big way every year.

Kaybaykwah

Wibbs wrote: »

This old chestnut. Again. A) the US is a former colony that was born and bred on immigration. It quite simply couldn't have existed without it. 2) Even so note today now they have enough people how much harder it is to get into the place and they don't like illegals too much and that attitude is hardening in some quarters. 3) The Irish in America had their fair share of negatives as well as positives attached(like many other groups). 4) America is and certainly was a "White" European nation and culture and the Irish being of that hue found it much easier to assimilate over the generations when compared to Blacks and Hispanics, even Italians to some degree(Asians tended to do their own thing, without generating much in the way of attention for the most part). 5) America is hardly a good example to hold up of social issues along ethnic and race lines. 6) When the Irish and others arrived in America there were no "free lunches" and the only social welfare was charity. Comparing an Irish immigrant to the US in the 1840's and a Nigerian illegal immigrant to Ireland in 2000 who is living in a taxpayer council house today. Well there is little comparison.

As Tony notes it's likely much "more to do with trying to head off the mouthy types at the pass" and the types you reference are more likely to take umbrage and complain than pretty much anyone and the government and government bodies are sensitive to that. Too bloody sensitive in my humble. Then again we have had an African woman living here attached to some NGO or other(it's hard to keep track of them) lecturing the UN and by extension the Irish on "our" culture of multiculturalism so there's that. It's beyond farcical in a lot of ways.

The United States were not populated by White Europeans from the start. The Blacks who were enslaved experienced their own brand of council housing, and many of them still do. There are people like you who will never want to admit change, but still look at the lore of Irish people having had a hard time of it, surmounting the odds, fitting in naturally when it is convenient to their narrative. We are all human, and everybody brings something to the table, not just knives and bad behavior.

Kaybaykwah

Besides, Ireland needed badly to improve on its narrative of the poor bloke category. The Celtic Tiger brought a sense of renewal, of a resourceful nation that chose to grow by getting new input, without bleeding generations of educated to profit other countries.

stinkypinky

Kaybaykwah wrote: »

everybody brings something to the table, not just knives and bad behavior.

How would you feel if this was happening in Irish cities?

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-50339977

When three explosions took place in one night across different parts of Stockholm last month, it came as a shock to residents. There had been blasts in other city suburbs, but never on their doorstep.

Swedish police are dealing with unprecedented levels of attacks, targeting city centre locations too. The bomb squad was called to deal with 97 explosions in the first nine months of this year.

"I grew up here and you feel like that environment gets violated," says Joel, 22.

The front door of his apartment block in the central Stockholm neighbourhood of Sodermalm was blown out and windows were shattered along the street.

"It's very new in Sweden, and we are looking for knowledge around the world," says Mats Lovning, head of the National Operations Department.

For criminologist Amir Rostami, who has researched the use of hand grenades in Sweden, the only relevant comparison is Mexico, plagued by gang violence.

"This is unique in countries that pretty much don't have a war or don't have a long history of terrorism," he says.

Kaybaykwah

stinkypinky wrote: »

How would you feel if this was happening in Irish cities?

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-50339977

When three explosions took place in one night across different parts of Stockholm last month, it came as a shock to residents. There had been blasts in other city suburbs, but never on their doorstep.

Swedish police are dealing with unprecedented levels of attacks, targeting city centre locations too. The bomb squad was called to deal with 97 explosions in the first nine months of this year.

"I grew up here and you feel like that environment gets violated," says Joel, 22.

The front door of his apartment block in the central Stockholm neighbourhood of Sodermalm was blown out and windows were shattered along the street.

"It's very new in Sweden, and we are looking for knowledge around the world," says Mats Lovning, head of the National Operations Department.

For criminologist Amir Rostami, who has researched the use of hand grenades in Sweden, the only relevant comparison is Mexico, plagued by gang violence.

"This is unique in countries that pretty much don't have a war or don't have a long history of terrorism," he says.

You also have the same kind of gun, bombing violence in Irish suburbs, among whites, not to mention that little spat up North that is a white as snow, series of events.

Sweden also has had extreme violence from biker gangs for years, all native ****.

In Canada, especially where I live, gangs like the Rizutto Mafia Clan, The Hells Angels, the West End Gang (Irish) are the more powerful organized crime groups, all overwhelmingly white. There are bound to be ****kickers from other ethnicities. France has experienced violence in the rough suburbs, but also a lot of clashing between the police forces and the gilets jaunes, all predominantly white.

ExMachina1000

Kaybaykwah wrote: »

Besides, Ireland needed badly to improve on its narrative of the poor bloke category. The Celtic Tiger brought a sense of renewal, of a resourceful nation that chose to grow by getting new input, without bleeding generations of educated to profit other countries.

The Celtic tiger was down to multinationals setting up base here. The tax windfall. Ireland was the poor man of Europe before that and will return to that role of they ever left.
We have no industry here nor do we have a substantial amount of natural resources.

Generation emigration is never too far away

Kaybaykwah

ExMachina1000 wrote: »

The Celtic tiger was down to multinationals setting up base here. The tax windfall. Ireland was the poor man of Europe before that and will return to that role of they ever left.
We have no industry here nor do we have a substantial amount of natural resources.

Generation emigration is never too far away

It's the same wherever you are. If you were living in what were American industrial powerhouses and looked around you, you could point a finger to so many factors in the demise of industry in such cities, in spite of the proximity to relatively abundant resources. Heck, look at what they have done to Pennsylvania, sucking up every ounce of oil they couldn't get to at the turn of the 20th Century. It's the same for any industry, aeronautics, auto manufacturing, pharma; they can pick up and leave at the drop of a hat.

Tony EH

Slowyourrole wrote: »

I figured you wouldn't give a direct answer to the question. You claimed small numbers fit in but large numbers didn't. This is completely discounted by our own ancestors. They went to the States in big numbers with their own culture and integrated into US society in a way which appears to have benefited both. So much so that they celebrate our national holiday in a big way every year.

That's hardly the same thing though, is it?

When you're talking about America, you have to remember that the original people and their cultures were exterminated and everybody going there in their stead, were immigrants, whether they were black, white, yellow or whatever you're having yourself.

stinkypinky

Kaybaykwah wrote: »

You also have the same kind of gun, bombing violence in Irish suburbs, among whites, not to mention that little spat up North that is a white as snow, series of events.

Sweden also has had extreme violence from biker gangs for years, all native ****.

In Canada, especially where I live, gangs like the Rizutto Mafia Clan, The Hells Angels, the West End Gang (Irish) are the more powerful organized crime groups, all overwhelmingly white. There are bound to be ****kickers from other ethnicities. France has experienced violence in the rough suburbs, but also a lot of clashing between the police forces and the gilets jaunes, all predominantly white.

It's a bit disingenuous to allude to existing crime - of course crime exists already in pretty much every country in the world,it would nonsensical to say it doesn't. The question is why voluntarily add to it, we have enough problems already. Ignoring crime, cultural and societal issues are a big problem too.

Wibbs

Slowyourrole wrote: »

I figured you wouldn't give a direct answer to the question.

I gave you six, but you quite simply don't want to hear them because it doesn't fit your narrative.

You claimed small numbers fit in but large numbers didn't.

Yep, which is reflected in every society which has inward migration. Even Ireland. 30 years ago we had Italians, Chinese, quite a few from the Middle East, even a few Africans, but they were small in number and there were no enclaves and no talk of inclusion or any of that. Now there are and there is and watch and see what kicks off, just like everywhere else.

This is completely discounted by our own ancestors. They went to the States in big numbers with their own culture and integrated into US society in a way which appears to have benefited both. So much so that they celebrate our national holiday in a big way every year.

Again, and like everyone who wheels out this trite "argument", you are completely ignoring the simple fact that America is a colony that was built on immigration, forced or voluntary and couldn't have survived without it and often on the bones and blood of those who built it, the Africans, the Chinese, even a fair number of Irish. You can't compare a nation built on and directly dependent on immigration to an existing nation with a largely stable population of locals. What happened to the largely stable population of local Americans when Europeans rocked up?

Kaybaykwah wrote: »

The United States were not populated by White Europeans from the start.

Unless you speak of Native Americans, or the very earliest African slaves it was run and populated by European settlers. Indeed indentured European servants were greater in number than Africans in the early days.

The Blacks who were enslaved experienced their own brand of council housing, and many of them still do.

Are we talking of the Projects and other American public housing initiatives? Yep, the American authorities did the oul slum clearances in the early 20th century, which in turn often led to more slums, but what's your point? They were Americans living in same. They weren't newly minted immigrants.

There are people like you who will never want to admit change, but still look at the lore of Irish people having had a hard time of it, surmounting the odds, fitting in naturally when it is convenient to their narrative.

I have no problem with change. I like change, when it's a positive. However looking around at our European neighbours and the decades of social fracture and continuing problems with the multicultural fantasy land, one that most brought on themselves because of earlier colonialism, I quite simply don't want to import that nonsense here, because we didn't need to. We have one of the highest birthrates in the EU(if not the highest), so that demographic shift excuse peddled out elsewhere holds no water(though it's been applied here, which speaks volumes about the dishonesty around this matter). We didn't operate colonies, well not since the early medieval, so we don't "owe" ex colonies a thing. We have enough social problems as it is, hell, we have one totally Irish ethnic group that are more distanced from the mainstream by the day and we've seen centuries of strife over ethnic divisions, again all Whiteys. Why import the naive idiocy of others and add to our woes? Just so some can feel virtuous from less "white guilt" and have a wider choice of cafes in D4?

Again I have zero issue with legal and qualified people coming to Ireland, or EU residents for that matter. However a large proportion of our influx before the law was overturned by a large majority of Irish voters were not legal and many if not most were under or non qualified and are more likely to be on social welfare than background. Indeed since the law changed and immigration got tighter we've turned the vast majority of those from the same nations away, because they're not refugees and don't qualify for legal entry into this country. If that same criteria was in play twenty years ago our demographics would be a little different. Oh and not just Africans BTW, Romanians and Ukrainians among others are in that mix. All White last time I looked.

We are all human, and everybody brings something to the table, not just knives and bad behavior.

And that's a lovely sentiment, but that's all it is; sentiment. The facts are some cultures fit in more than others and some - and sadly yes it is often even mostly down to racism - don't. Put it another way: Go anywhere in the western world and who of these groups are more likely to be college educated professionals: Asians, Europeans, Africans? In the US Asian Americans are on average more educated and earn more than White Americans and America is hardly colour blind and proactively Asian positive. It's not even down to "race". Take the UK. Those of Pakistani Muslim heritage are less likely to be in the middle and the top than Indian Hindus. Swedish Americans were more successful on average than Irish or Italian Americans. Same "race". It's not religion either. Other Muslim groups in new countries can to be more successful on average.

Wibbs

stinkypinky wrote: »

It's a bit disingenuous to allude to existing crime - of course crime exists already in pretty much every country in the world,it would nonsensical to say it doesn't. The question is why voluntarily add to it, we have enough problems already. Ignoring crime, cultural and societal issues are a big problem too.

Apparently they want more "diversity" in crime and social unrest. Even crime is too "White" it seems.

And again would any of these so into diversity and multiculturalism say that what Black African nations really need to be "evolved" and "civilised" and "liberal" is more White or Asian faces? Does Japan need more White faces? Does Pakistan? This diversity only seems to be a one way street. For the craic rock up to Kinshasa and tell a local that the place isn't diverse or multicultural enough and would really benefit from an influx of low qualified White people who can't speak French very well, if at all, oh and social welfare will be provided to them as if they were local. See what they say. They'll think you were dropped on your head as a baby. Rightfully.

ILoveYourVibes

It saved Ireland culturally and economically.

Kaybaykwah

Wibbs wrote: »

And that's a lovely sentiment, but that's all it is; sentiment. The facts are some cultures fit in more than others and some - and sadly yes it is often even mostly down to racism - don't. Put it another way: Go anywhere in the western world and who of these groups are more likely to be college educated professionals: Asians, Europeans, Africans? In the US Asian Americans are on average more educated and earn more than White Americans and America is hardly colour blind and proactively Asian positive. It's not even down to "race". Take the UK. Those of Pakistani Muslim heritage are less likely to be in the middle and the top than Indian Hindus. Swedish Americans were more successful on average than Irish or Italian Americans. Same "race". It's not religion either. Other Muslim groups in new countries can to be more successful on average.

You are hammering the same tired old beat-up rusty nail. It hasn't occured to you that when the Irish came to Canada or the US, sent to Australia, their pedigree of Papist ****kickers was a very strong point of denial by the nativists, know-nothings, and jingoists at the very same time First Nations were being pounced on for more land.

Religion has a lot to do with it, skin color has too, in fact, just about anything that distinguishes us from each other is fair game. We all have our little zones of comfort and it is all part of living in a more or less cosmopolitan world. It is also more dynamic and int.eresting to be exposed to various cultures.I am a mix of Irish and French Canadian, and in Quebec, it is estimated at least one third of people are of Irish descent. It is in the music, the way we humor one another and plenty of other things that drives our lifestyle. I welcome new influences, and don't have a wholesale view of a group of people solely on their differences. I think that if it starts with a new cafe in Ballsbridge or even Crumlin, it is worth it

Wibbs

ILoveYourVibes wrote: »

It saved Ireland culturally and economically.

I'll have whatever you're smoking. Economically Ireland was already growing before any number of immigrants were rocking up to our shores. Particularly illegal immigrants. It was our "boom" that attracted them. Not so many showing up in the early 80's. I wonder why. Culturally? How so? Again we were knocking the oul Catholic Oireland shackles off long before the numbers of immigrants were coming here. Name one cultural improvement. And no, Kazakh restaurants in Blackrock don't count.

I think supporters of this politic a) have not much of an argument for the positive beyond sentiment and vagueness and b) want it to work regardless of any evidence or debate against it.

Clarence Boddiker

Kaybaykwah wrote: »

The Celtic Tiger brought a sense of renewal, of a resourceful nation that chose to grow by getting new input, without bleeding generations of educated to profit other countries.

Eh? Thats exactly what the result of the Celtic Tiger was...Two hundred and fifty thousand of our best and brightest emigrated after the collapse of the economy.

Clarence Boddiker

ILoveYourVibes wrote: »

It saved Ireland culturally and economically.

Please explain how it saved Ireland culturally?

Wibbs

Kaybaykwah wrote: »

You are hammering the same tired old beat-up rusty nail.

Pot, may I introduce you to kettle. But at least I'm making points beyond "ah sure it's great isn't it". You're just wilfully ignoring any points that don't fit your narrative. I'm open for changing my mind, clearly you're not.

It hasn't occured to you that when the Irish came to Canada or the US, sent to Australia, their pedigree of Papist ****kickers was a very strong point of denial by the nativists, know-nothings, and jingoists at the very same time First Nations were being pounced on for more land.

And why in god's name would any nation not dealing with that kind of nonsense want to import it? You in Canada, and other ex European colonies have no choice. It's what your nations are built upon. We have that choice.

Religion has a lot to do with it, skin color has too, in fact, just about anything that distinguishes us from each other is fair game. We all have our little zones of comfort and it is all part of living in a more or less cosmopolitan world. It is also more dynamic and int.eresting to be exposed to various cultures.I am a mix of Irish and French Canadian, and in Quebec, it is estimated at least one third of people are of Irish descent. It is in the music, the way we humor one another and plenty of other things that drives our lifestyle. I welcome new influences, and don't have a wholesale view of a group of people solely on their differences.

And yet you avoid my point and question:The facts are some cultures fit in more than others and some - and sadly yes it is often even mostly down to racism - don't. Put it another way: Go anywhere in the western world and who of these groups are more likely to be college educated professionals: Asians, Europeans, Africans? Can you answer that one please?

I think that if it starts with a new cafe in Ballsbridge or even Crumlin, it is worth it

And yep, there's both barrels of the multicultural gun fired; restaurants and vague references to "influences".

Kaybaykwah

The Zionist wrote: »

In Sweden most rapes are now committed by migrants. In England muslims are allowed rape white girls with impunity. I don't need this kind of diversity, thanks.

You have long had monsignors order their surplices ironed out by young cloistered girls they had impregnated, beneficently.

Kaybaykwah

Wibbs wrote: »

Pot, may I introduce you to kettle. But at least I'm making points beyond "ah sure it's great isn't it". You're just wilfully ignoring any points that don't fit your narrative. I'm open for changing my mind, clearly you're not.

And why in god's name would any nation not dealing with that kind of nonsense want to import it? You in Canada, and other ex European colonies have no choice. It's what your nations are built upon. We have that choice.

And yet you avoid my point and question:The facts are some cultures fit in more than others and some - and sadly yes it is often even mostly down to racism - don't. Put it another way: Go anywhere in the western world and who of these groups are more likely to be college educated professionals: Asians, Europeans, Africans? Can you answer that one please?

And yep, there's both barrels of the multicultural gun fired; restaurants and vague references to "influences".

When the Irish people didn't have much to hope for in terms of higher education in their own country, before emancipation, say, you would have cheered on the fact that it was hopeless.

ILoveYourVibes

Clarence Boddiker wrote: »

Please explain how it saved Ireland culturally?

Irish culture was incredibly static.There was zero evolution. Anyone who wanted to be anything had to leave.

Things like classical music/Ballet never found roots here. While i love Irish music and dance...and it gave great imput into Irish pop music...this was becoming stagnant.


It wasn't evolving. It wasn't reflecting enough colour and nuance for a modern world. Our television etc is still pretty bad.

The best Irish film in recent years has been things like Breakfast on Pluto The Lobster Closure of Catharsis (amazing if you have not seen it). They have all had immigrant influences in either script acting or production.

Cultures become enriched from broader experiences and ideas. Without these they become stale and stagnant often the collective narrative within that culture becomes something the younger generation in that culture cannot relate to.

It becomes like an ill fitting shirt.

This coupled with the fact that a lot of young people tend to leave Ireland hasn't helped. We have perhaps entire decades of a huge outward migration of young people.

When talking about our cultural networks ..or your cultural network ..i am using it really to refer to your friend group ....it might seem an odd phrase but its the only one i can think of.Exposure to a wider group of people ..often brings wisdom ..an openness to new ideas and acceptance. I think this crosses over into how we think about people who might also be more like us or look more like us.

When people who look like us ..start to do new things or behave in a way ..we think of as 'unacceptable or weird' we can ostracize them. I think having a wider cultural network actually makes people more flexible and less rigid.


Cultural rigidity occurs in highly homogeneous places. It results in suppression of the alternative. Now you might ask...why does our culture need to contain everything? Well it doesn't ..but the less and less it contains ...the more primitive it will become. Island culture. The more narrowly defined things will be. The less nuance there is. And this will be reflected in everything from novels to films to songs to the way people talk.

People become afraid of things that cannot be narrowly defined. Like transpeople or fluid sexuality. OMG they are trying to change GENDER! :eek:

Why does our culture need to contain everything? Because such cultural rigidity harms progression.When you are rigid towards the different ....you are usually rigid towards the NEW. Society cannot evolve in anyway that is authentic when you only hear one voice or many voices that are just the same.

Etiquette is often defined by culture ....but who sets these rules that set the parameters of how we should live? Are they to be set wide or narrow ? Are they to be set rigidly or in a flexible way? Studies have shown the more rigid a culture is ..the more extreme it can be. Jihadists are hardly known for being flexible with their ideas.

So think ....are extremists of the LEFT or the RIGHT ...flexible? Or is their thinking more rigid?


And why do you think that might be? Do you think maybe their cultural network is too much like them? Or is it diverse?

The less diverse your network is ..the less you understand.

Cultures cannot evolve in an authentic way with only one voice.

Now cultural rigidity cannot be solved by multiculturalism alone. But it can help ..Overly rigid cultures EVEN companies can become codified overly ritualistic and disconnected ...think of the catholic church.

Also if people in a culture don't have to compete ..they lose their edge. If irish music doesn't have to compete with other music ....it won't be as good.

Ireland evolved more in the last 15 yrs than it had probably in the previous 50. that was not incidental.

When organizations ...like govt or companies try to evolve ...its in a ritualistic codified way ..that seems inauthentic ...if a company puts in gender policy ...its often scoffed at ...and when think about it that company is STILL often maybe 80% white men at the top. So you can't blame people for thinking this is silly. Whereas if it were truly diverse ...people would have no option but to evolve.

Dyr

ILoveYourVibes wrote: »

Cultural rigidity occurs in highly homogeneous places. It results in suppression of the alternative. Now you might ask...why does our culture need to contain everything? Well it doesn't ..but the less and less it contains ...the more primitive it will become. Island culture. The more narrowly defined things will be. The less nuance there is. And this will be reflected in everything from novels to films to songs to the way people talk.

Yeah, like those insular Japanese, sooooo culturally homogenous, soo primitive, sooo little nuance in their culture. I feel sorry for them, cultural backwater that they are.
Nuance is a by product of homegenity, it's why so the Japanese have a culture where so much can be conveyed by implication and nuance and the Yanks are as a subtle as a brick.


This is what really drives this chattering class justification for multiculturalism: a fear of appearing unsophisticated.

biko

The Icelanders must feel left out not having hordes of newcomers chasing through the streets burning cars and beating the natives up.

ILoveYourVibes

biko wrote: »

The Icelanders must feel left out not having hordes of newcomers chasing through the streets burning cars and beating the natives up.

Immigrants make up 15% of the population there.

I also don't like your representation of human beings that look different to you.

We Irish are also immigrants. Are hordes of Irish people chasing people through the streets and burning cars in london?

ILoveYourVibes

The Zionist wrote: »

Open borders for Israel please.

Why are you addressing this towards me?

ILoveYourVibes

The Zionist wrote: »

Btw, when is Israel opening it's borders?

Why are you addressing this question towards me?

You have 11 posts. You are new around here or not perhaps.

Yet you seem to have a very clear agenda from the get go of why you are here.

ILoveYourVibes

The Zionist wrote: »

Because you're Jewish.

And???

I almost wish no one knew now!

Kaybaykwah

The Zionist wrote: »

Such condensending BS in that above post. So Ireland was producing nothing of value until we started importing the third world?

Btw, when is Israel opening it's borders?

Israel sucks in Jewish people from the diaspora and that is the bigger part of what makes it vibrant.