What are your views on Multiculturalism in Ireland? - Threadbanned User List in OP

Doctor Roast

DelaneysMule wrote: »

I'll keep it short and simple..... He's a scumbag.

Hey you never came back to me with that overwhelming evidence... Could it be you were talking pony

DelaneysMule

DelaneysMule wrote: »

I'll keep it short and simple..... He's a scumbag.

So, it's nothing to do with his insights, and only about your judgment about him.. ok. That's clear.

DelaneysMule

Deleted User wrote: »

So, it's nothing to do with his insights, and only about your judgment about him.. ok. That's clear.

Perhaps a lying murderer might not be honest and forthright when he speaks on a subject? The insights of a scumbag are usually only being said because they are self serving. I don't have the patience to siphon through his interviews. I'm afraid when you murder people in cold blood people can lose trust in the integrity of any so called "insights" you may have.

stefanovich

DelaneysMule wrote: »

Perhaps a lying murderer might not be honest and forthright when he speaks on a subject? The insights of a scumbag are usually only being said because they are self serving. I don't have the patience to siphon through his interviews. I'm afraid when you murder people in cold blood people can lose trust in the integrity of any so called "insights" you may have.

If a person speaks the truth but they secretly don't mean it or are doing it for selfish reasons is it still the truth?

stefanovich

stefanovich wrote: »

If a person speaks the truth but they secretly don't mean it or are doing it for selfish reasons is it still the truth?

Most of the accusations I see from progressives consist of "this is what I think the person really means" rather than actually taking them at face value. Leftism and psychic abilities must go hand in hand.

DelaneysMule

DelaneysMule wrote: »

Perhaps a lying murderer might not be honest and forthright when he speaks on a subject? The insights of a scumbag are usually only being said because they are self serving. I don't have the patience to siphon through his interviews. I'm afraid when you murder people in cold blood people can lose trust in the integrity of any so called "insights" you may have.

Again... just as you led with respect... honesty/being fortright has little relevance. You're not going to listen to him, and instantly believe what he says. Very few people are.. because again, he's a politician. You're going to do your own research, read unaligned articles, and should your own opinions draw comparisons with his own insights, then there's relevance.

You've decided that he's a scumbag, a murderer, whatever, and based on that, he's not worth listening to.

Whereas, for me, I don't really care. He speaks clearly, logically, and is very knowledgeable on a wide variety of topics. I don't particularly like him, as a person, but if that was a necessary requirement, the list of insightful/intelligent speakers would be extremely short.

For example, I've read a lot from Malcolm X over the years. He produced some very interesting and intelligent ideas, even though, I don't like what he promoted within civil rights, or what he allowed himself to be involved in. Same with Mao, who was a bit of a monster, but incredibly intelligent on issues relating to China. You should, as should anyone, be able to appreciate the viewpoints of others, irrespective of whether you like them, or like what they've done in their lives. This is more about what you do with their insights.

jmreire

Like / dislike or hold any view you like on Putin, but where would Russia be today without him? A mismatch collection of warring states at the mercy of the world??? Russia is huge, and relations between the states is not always harmonious. Putin keeps the peace, albeit with a heavy hand. See Chechny for example, and how Putin handled that.

biko

Russia is very diverse with over 100 minority languages spoken in the country, and with over 180 ethnic groups.

jmreire

biko wrote: »

Russia is very diverse with over 100 minority languages spoken in the country, and with over 180 ethnic groups.

Yes it is. I've lived there for a nr of years. And that is why I asked the question about what it would be like now, if some one else other than Putin had taken control....just as a matter of interest. There are some states that have two distinct and seperate identity's , who have their own language's and will not intermarry. Add the clan system to that mix, and you will for sure have "Diversity" but not always amicable.

jmreire

jmreire wrote: »

Yes it is. I've lived there for a nr of years. And that is why I asked the question about what it would be like now, if some one else other than Putin had taken control....just as a matter of interest. There are some states that have two distinct and seperate identity's , who have their own language's and will not intermarry. Add the clan system to that mix, and you will for sure have "Diversity" but not always amicable.

Agreed. I've spent a fair bit of time there too, although, I haven't committed to living there. Amazing people. Just wow.

You can't really apply western political thought, social morality, etc to Russia... well, you could, but it would explode violently within a few months. Some cultures simply crave a strong and somewhat brutal leadership.

The Chinese are similar. Democracy, western democracy, wouldn't work very well with them, and they'd likely revert to a totalitarian system within a few years (after a few subsequent civil wars).

Sand

Real Donald Trump wrote: »

Putin nails it, on this topic anyway, regardless of other issues, he's spot on here

He makes a couple of indisputably true statements, the primary one of interest for this thread being that 'The ruling elites have broken away from the people'. No one, if they are being honest, can deny that. European politicians are utterly unconcerned if the European peoples disappear tomorrow. The only thing that concerns them is that 'European' (i.e. neoliberal) values prevail amongst whatever people then inhabit Europe. Even so called 'nationalist' parties like SF or the SNP are against any concept of an Irish or Scottish nation respectively.

We live in an era which calls to mind Bertolt Brecht's old joke that the people have lost the confidence of the government so that the people must be dissolved so that the government could elect another. For European governments, ideological purity is far more important than the people. That is why the Irish government introduces policies to end direct provision and open borders. It doesn't help Irish people. But it serves neoliberalism. And this is ultimately where the policy comes from. NGOs and lobbyists have direct access to governments. People do not.

So many European governments now hold it a higher priority to be the best open economic zone in Europe, as opposed to being the political representation of a European nation.

DelaneysMule wrote: »

Perhaps a lying murderer might not be honest and forthright when he speaks on a subject? The insights of a scumbag are usually only being said because they are self serving. I don't have the patience to siphon through his interviews. I'm afraid when you murder people in cold blood people can lose trust in the integrity of any so called "insights" you may have.

I don't think Putin rates your "insights" either.

Arthur Daley

Excellent diagnosis

jmreire

Deleted User wrote: »

Agreed. I've spent a fair bit of time there too, although, I haven't committed to living there. Amazing people. Just wow.

You can't really apply western political thought, social morality, etc to Russia... well, you could, but it would explode violently within a few months. Some cultures simply crave a strong and somewhat brutal leadership.

The Chinese are similar. Democracy, western democracy, wouldn't work very well with them, and they'd likely revert to a totalitarian system within a few years (after a few subsequent civil wars).

One of the biggest ( if not the biggest ) mistakes made in modern society is that "Democracy Works"... and so it does, but not everywhere for sure!! And no where worse than in Country's that do not even know what the word means, never mind having actually experienced it. Most of the places I lived in while in Russia, would be ruled by a local strong family, well connected with Moscow. Under the Communists, the Red Rule law book was something not unlike Britainica Encyclopedia ......and every check point would have copy, just in case of argument. But everyone there understands how to play the game,,and so it works. And it comes as a surprise, to many ( as it did to me) that in all the Republics, the most unpopular visitor is the ethnic Russian. They really don't feel at home outside of Moscow....Fascinating Country, and even more fascinating people. Might return there for a visit when the World settles down a bit again.

jmreire

jmreire wrote: »

One of the biggest ( if not the biggest ) mistakes made in modern society is that "Democracy Works"... and so it does, but not everywhere for sure!!

TBH I'm not so sure that it does work. The US isn't much of a democracy, in spite of all the propaganda, being driven by the Rich, and the lobby groups (or corporations). In Europe, it's debatable just how much influence the electorate has over their politicians, since in most cases, democratic systems are limited to rather narrow selections for parties. Then if you look at the southern European nations, corruption and greed is commonplace throughout the democratic systems.. so, I'd be wary of saying it's working as advertised.

I've read a wide variety of books explaining what democracy is.. and considering how it's been implemented, we don't have it. Not really, if people are honest with themselves. We've, once again, established various elites who give the impression that the common person has a voice, but.. that voice is routinely ignored when inconvenient.

And no where worse than in Country's that do not even know what the word means, never mind having actually experienced it. Most of the places I lived in while in Russia, would be ruled by a local strong family, well connected with Moscow. Under the Communists, the Red Rule law book was something not unlike Britainica Encyclopedia ......and every check point would have copy, just in case of argument. But everyone there understands how to play the game,,and so it works. And it comes as a surprise, to many ( as it did to me) that in all the Republics, the most unpopular visitor is the ethnic Russian. They really don't feel at home outside of Moscow....Fascinating Country, and even more fascinating people. Might return there for a visit when the World settles down a bit again.

All the "former" communist countries operate similarly... the Red Rule book is still in play. The network of older people with influence, the family networks, the "social" connections that result in favors, etc.

Yup. I'm due a return to Russia. Haven't been there in four years.. although Vietnam is next on my list of places to stay for a while. Which is another Red book nation, from what my Asian friends tell me.

Sand

Deleted User wrote: »

TBH I'm not so sure that it does work. The US isn't much of a democracy, in spite of all the propaganda, being driven by the Rich, and the lobby groups (or corporations). In Europe, it's debatable just how much influence the electorate has over their politicians, since in most cases, democratic systems are limited to rather narrow selections for parties. Then if you look at the southern European nations, corruption and greed is commonplace throughout the democratic systems.. so, I'd be wary of saying it's working as advertised.

I've read a wide variety of books explaining what democracy is.. and considering how it's been implemented, we don't have it. Not really, if people are honest with themselves. We've, once again, established various elites who give the impression that the common person has a voice, but.. that voice is routinely ignored when inconvenient.

Very true. If democracy is defined by power of the people, then European countries are certainly not democracies. There is no democratic support for open borders, yet it is implemented. Its routinely the case that the voters do not get what they voted for. US voters certainly didn't get border security in 2016. And despite Biden campaigning on ending student debt and establishing a $15 minimum wage...well, that isnt going to happen either. What gets accomplished is items that elite interests want. The people get little or nothing. People in Russia get to vote too, so the difference between democracy and oligarchy seems to be more about style than substance.

Perhaps the Russian oligarchy is less sophisticated than their western counterparts. They forget to change the actors from round to round to keep up appearances of choice.

Doctor Roast

I don't think Russia has ever been what you would call a normal country, is it worth a visit?

ExoPolitic

Sand wrote: »

Very true. If democracy is defined by power of the people, then European countries are certainly not democracies. There is no democratic support for open borders, yet it is implemented. Its routinely the case that the voters do not get what they voted for. US voters certainly didn't get border security in 2016. And despite Biden campaigning on ending student debt and establishing a $15 minimum wage...well, that isnt going to happen either. What gets accomplished is items that elite interests want. The people get little or nothing. People in Russia get to vote too, so the difference between democracy and oligarchy seems to be more about style than substance.

Perhaps the Russian oligarchy is less sophisticated than their western counterparts. They forget to change the actors from round to round to keep up appearances of choice.

it's not often I see a post that changes my mind, but this one did. Thank you. Closest they got to democracy was Trump, who was blocked at every corner by the people with the real power.

jmreire

Doctor Roast wrote: »

I don't think Russia has ever been what you would call a normal country, is it worth a visit?

Yes, Definitely, if you have never been in an ex-communist country before , or even if you have. Make a list of what you want to see, Art, Music, sight seeing etc etc and where you want to go.Plenty to see and do even if you only go to Moscow and ramble around, or travel to Petersburg,,,like I said see what your interests are, and plan accordingly. It has become a bit more "Used Friendly" due to increasing tourist industry and the cash it brings in. But one bit of advice, never, and I mean never,. go anywhere without your passport.They are still a little bit paranoid about who is walking around their streets, especially foreigners, and random stops by the Police are normal, but nothing to worry about once your documentation is OK. Quite a lot speak English ( and other languages too) and you can strike up casual conversations with complete strangers. A good tolerance of Vodka is a decided asset.:) And you will find it very different from Ireland.

Kivaro

Denmark was once one of the most liberal countries in the world with their asylum policies, but now they have done a complete reversal e.g. Denmark just stripped approximately 100 Syrian refugees of their residency, saying they must return home as Damascus is now deemed safe.

Why did this happen; why the very sudden change of mind?
Quite clearly the people of Denmark experienced a negative impact of sudden migration of large amounts of people from areas of the world that had no cultural similarities to them; in fact many times there was a complete culture clash with the indigenous population expected to abide by the culture of the new arrivals. This type of multiculturalism definitely did not work in Denmark.

So it seems that Denmark do not suffer fools lightly, and with their no-more asylum seekers message broadcasted to the world, it has turned off their beacon of welcome to them. On the other hand, Ireland has just lit the biggest bonfire in Europe in order to attract economic/climate migrants from all over the planet with their free housing after 4 months guarantee. We are obviously not learning from other countries' experiences with non-EU mass inward migration; in fact we deliberately only made the situation a great deal worse with these new asylum policies.

biko

jmreire wrote: »

Yes, Definitely, if you have never been in an ex-communist country before , or even if you have.

I have been in Moscow a long time ago and would like to go again some day.

It's be great to do the Trans-Siberian Railroad with the family.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=54YlwcnF0fA

ExMachina1000

DelaneysMule wrote: »

I'll keep it short and simple..... He's a scumbag.

We could do with a lot more Putin types and far less Ryan and Donnelly types

biko

Why are middle-aged European women so pro Afghani unaccompanied children immigration? Hmmm?

Doctor Roast

Doctor Roast wrote: »

I don't think Russia has ever been what you would call a normal country, is it worth a visit?

I'd highly recommend it. Moscow is awesome.. and I mean you will feel awe at times. Great nightlife too. Can be quite expensive though if you don't do your research beforehand. St Petersburg is a gem. Wonderful city.

TBH one of the things I love most about Russia is the variety of food. Definitely consider going.

Kivaro wrote: »

Denmark was once one of the most liberal countries in the world with their asylum policies, but now they have done a complete reversal e.g.

The problem is that Denmark is still a very "liberal" nation, and they've implemented a wide variety of 'enlightened' policies. Birth rates are a major concern for them, because with their implementation of extremely pro-female policies, men are no longer getting married and having children (only something like 20% do in recent years). The laws on child support for a wide range of situations can be extremely unfair to men, and as such, a large percentage of men have just sworn off having children.

Combined with their past Asylum policy, and surge of immigration, they're a nation that could easily see the indigenous population being a minority in their own country within a few decades.

Western culture has been going through a period of implementation of ideas without any real consideration for what will happen afterward. The focus is on the most obvious of changes. Like here, they want more immigration, because it promotes a more diverse society, but ignore the creation of an underclass, and the generation of social friction/unrest. For Denmark, it was the range of policies that marginalised men vs women, falling birth rates resulting from it, and the shock of immigration.

Denmark just stripped approximately 100 Syrian refugees of their residency, saying they must return home as Damascus is now deemed safe.

Which I agree with wholeheartedly. Asylum should never, except in some very select cases, be permanent. The vast majority of Asylum seekers should be sent back to their home countries, or encouraged to migrate elsewhere once they've been given time to get themselves into a better state of living. Applying as economic migrants to other nations, instead of retaining the Asylum tag.

[Deleted User]

[Deleted User] wrote: »

The laws on child support for a wide range of situations can be extremely unfair to men, and as such, a large percentage of men have just sworn off having children.

What does this refer to? How are they unfair to men?

el diablo

bubblypop wrote: »

What does this refer to? How are they unfair to men?

Same as in every Western nation. Family and divorce courts will side with the woman 99% of the time, no matter the circumstances.

Pat D. Almighty

ChelseaRentBoy wrote: »

Unfortunately the history of our species shows multiculturalism has failed and it will fail here also, it is already. We are well on the road to be the next Birmingham , Malmö or Paris here in Dublin.

I'm not saying I wouldn't like it to succeed but you'd want to be a right thick if you think it will.

Fearmongering nonsense.

Eric Cartman

el diablo wrote: »

Same as in every Western nation. Family and divorce courts will side with the woman 99% of the time, no matter the circumstances.

Its one of the truly last great legal injustices left in our time.

enricoh

An Irish woman enquiring if 4 migrants were ok while setting up a tent gets gang raped by them in the canaries. Paddy will get all the nice ones though, so it's ok.
https://news.google.com/articles/CAIiEDJB_Ubb6PwCF1OJhm-blywqGQgEKhAIACoHCAow6KD9CjDuy_QCMI7o0wU?hl=en-IE&gl=IE&ceid=IE%3Aen

Irish woman 'gang-raped by four migrants' at Spanish holiday resort

Pat D. Almighty

enricoh wrote: »

An Irish woman enquiring if 4 migrants were ok while setting up a tent gets gang raped by them in the canaries. Paddy will get all the nice ones though, so it's ok.
https://news.google.com/articles/CAIiEDJB_Ubb6PwCF1OJhm-blywqGQgEKhAIACoHCAow6KD9CjDuy_QCMI7o0wU?hl=en-IE&gl=IE&ceid=IE%3Aen

Irish woman 'gang-raped by four migrants' at Spanish holiday resort

Yeah lots stop all migrants because a small minority are a bit rapey.

enricoh

Pat D. Almighty wrote: »

Yeah lots stop all migrants because a small minority are a bit rapey.

Someone posted figures on rapes committed in sweden pat by migrants, for a small minority they were massively over represented in the figures. Collateral damage on the good ship multiculturalism I suppose pat?
I may even poke out a link for u later if I could be bothered pat.