What are your views on Multiculturalism in Ireland? - Threadbanned User List in OP

Yellow_Fern

Doctor Roast wrote: »

I met 2 German women randomly in the last year and both told me they were afraid to go out at night in Germany.

I have a lot of experience of Germany. There are many areas that are still safe. But there are places like certain parts of smaller poorer eastern cities that recently have become very dodgy. A lot of German women might not notice it but if you are petite and enjoy having a night life then you will know. Asians seem to get it the worse. I dated a Asian girl there and she told she had about ten unwanted guys grabbing randomly late at night on the street over the course of a year. It was not possible to know where they are from but foreign seemed to be over represented.

[Deleted User]

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Actually, that makes little logical sense. In a modern first world nation, which has embraced the marvels of technology, most low skilled jobs are on the way out due to the implementation of better technologies and automation. And while there will always be some demand for low skilled workers, especially in the service industry, that industry isn't growing at a pace to warrant the increased population, producing dubious returns from their low incomes.

An increased population of low skilled workers, would actually increase salaries for the educated/skilled, because companies/institutions needing to provide for the overall larger population, would require increased numbers of staff, because their positions aren't as susceptible to being replaced by automation, or they have the ability to transfer their education/skills to new areas, which would be opened up by the new technologies. Previously skilled/educated people being easier/quicker/cheaper to retrain than training someone with zero skills, or dubious education. Therefore making the retention of qualified workers extremely important, and likely increase the already busy sector of headhunting (stealing talent).

Nope. TBH, I'd be wondering at that quote and what the motivations are in promoting it. It would make some sense in a nation which had a large agricultural, or manufacturing base (such as France or Germany), but Ireland has neither. Our agricultural industry is struggling to maintain it's existing presence, and our manufacturing industry (that doesn't require an educated workforce) is tiny.

Increased population means increased GDP on a purely economic basis. One of the reasons our borders are wide open, even if it brings down GDP per capita. The whole system is crashing and will eventually unravel.

Interestingly in America, they are coming very close to zero natural population growth ( It may well happen in 2021) and the predictions of a population of 420+ million by 2060 will never come to fruition. They are currently at about 330 million and may well top out at 340-350 million unless they massively increase immigration even from the levels seen under Obama. This is highly unlikely to happen.

Hopefully something similar happens in Ireland, although our immigration levels are currently way above those of America

Deleted User

Deleted User wrote: »

Increased population means increased GDP on a purely economic basis. One of the reasons our borders are wide open, even if it brings down GDP per capita. The whole system is crashing and will eventually unravel.

Except, in a services economy that is heavily reliant on educational standards, low skilled labor contributes very little in the way of GDP. Even our services industry (staffed by low skilled workers) is quite low, and isn't growing much. As I said before, if Ireland had a large manufacturing and agricultural base, then low skilled labor would be of some use, but we don't. This is compounded by our relatively low population, when comparing us to other nations.

Hopefully something similar happens in Ireland, although our immigration levels are currently way above those of America

In spite of the claims by some politicians, Ireland doesn't need a large population, and should the birth rates stagnate near our current population, we'd be fine. We are not focused on labor intensive industries.

clytemnestra

biko wrote: »

Too many no-go areas in Brussels for women and LGBT, says minister
https://www.brusselstimes.com/brussels/49612/too-many-no-go-areas-in-brussels-for-women-and-lgbt-says-minister/

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IlfHP-hQuw8

The site http://herstreetview.com (Touche pas à ma pote) lets you walk in "her shoes".

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Femme_de_la_rue

This documentary caused a stir when it came out, not at the relentless sexual harassment faced by women in the streets of Brussels but at the uncomfortable fact that almost all the men are of North African origin. This tells you the depressing pecking order of the woke.

[Deleted User]

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Except, in a services economy that is heavily reliant on educational standards, low skilled labor contributes very little in the way of GDP. Even our services industry (staffed by low skilled workers) is quite low, and isn't growing much. As I said before, if Ireland had a large manufacturing and agricultural base, then low skilled labor would be of some use, but we don't. This is compounded by our relatively low population, when comparing us to other nations.



In spite of the claims by some politicians, Ireland doesn't need a large population, and should the birth rates stagnate near our current population, we'd be fine. We are not focused on labor intensive industries.

Yes, I agree, but more people means bigger gdp, that's all the politicians and business people care about, even if per capita gdp is falling because of this.

They will never accept anything else, be it for economic or cultural reasons they want a growing population.

Ireland still has 10-15 years of natural population growth left due to population momentum but even this isn't enough to satisfy the political parties.

Edit to say: In general terms the collapse in worldwide fertility in the last 20 years has been massive, not just where people think traditionally like Europe and East Asia. Fertility in India and most muslim majority countries has fallen through the floor. Outside of Africa and a handful of central Asian countries most of the world is at or below replacement fertility.

Africa really is the outlier and I don't think anyone knows how that is going to turn out

Deleted User

Deleted User wrote: »

Yes, I agree, but more people means bigger gdp, that's all the politicians and business people care about, even if per capita gdp is falling because of this.

Except it doesn't, since we're talking more low skilled/educated people who have a very limited effect on GDP in Ireland. If we were encouraging decent numbers of skilled/educated migrants, then, I'd wholeheartedly agree with that estimation about GDP increasing.

They will never accept anything else, be it for economic or cultural reasons they want a growing population.

Ireland still has 10-15 years of natural population growth left due to population momentum but even this isn't enough to satisfy the political parties.

Ahh well, they've never been particularly good at putting the interests of the nation ahead of either their virtue, or their need to put forward questionable agendas.

[Deleted User]

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Except it doesn't, since we're talking more low skilled/educated people who have a very limited effect on GDP in Ireland. If we were encouraging decent numbers of skilled/educated migrants, then, I'd wholeheartedly agree with that estimation about GDP increasing.

Ok, we're probably getting into semantics here I'm saying more people has to mean bigger gdp but it can also mean lower per capita gdp.

I'm not a fan of it either way

Deleted User

Deleted User wrote: »

Ok, we're probably getting into semantics here I'm saying more people has to mean bigger gdp but it can also mean lower per capita gdp.

You're missing my point. For a country like Ireland, the increase in GDP from low skilled workers would be negligible. Minuscule. For a nation such as Germany, the addition would be larger, because they have the industries to properly employ them, and so, the addition to GDP would be greater. But it doesn't work like that for Ireland, due to the focus of our economic development since we joined the EU.

I get that neither of us like the logic put forward by the politicians.

Kivaro

clytemnestra wrote: »

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Femme_de_la_rue

This documentary caused a stir when it came out, not at the relentless sexual harassment faced by women in the streets of Brussels but at the uncomfortable fact that almost all the men are of North African origin. This tells you the depressing pecking order of the woke.

What usually happens on here is the usual "nazi/racist" accusation for merely suggesting that abhorrent behavour like this is actually happening in a modern, western European society. But when the Justice Minister of Belgium is announcing that women and members of the LGBT community are living in fear in a progressive society, then ALL of us need to wake up. We cannot cloak it anymore. It's not left versus right anymore. It is decency versus an abhorrent behavior that needs to be addressed. 80% of women in parts of a "modern" western capital city in a European country feel unsafe going out by themselves in their own neighbourhoods. Is this right? Maybe, just maybe, the people who are forcing this upon us are wrong. Maybe now, we can question it?

And why is Ireland different?

ExMachina1000

Kivaro wrote: »

What usually happens on here is the usual "nazi/racist" accusation for merely suggesting that abhorrent behavour like this is actually happening in a modern, western European society. But when the Justice Minister of Belgium is announcing that women and members of the LGBT community are living in fear in a progressive society, then ALL of us need to wake up. We cannot cloak it anymore. It's not left versus right anymore. It is decency versus an abhorrent behavior that needs to be addressed. 80% of women in parts of a "modern" western capital city in a European country feel unsafe going out by themselves in their own neighbourhoods. Is this right? Maybe, just maybe, the people who are forcing this upon us are wrong. Maybe now, we can question it?

And why is Ireland different?

Many of us have already woken up and have been talking about how the writing is on the wall for long enough now. In return many of us were name called and labelled for expressing those opinions. Many of us have already done our part.

They have made their bed and can lie in it

ExMachina1000

ExMachina1000 wrote: »

Many of us have already woken up and have been talking about how the writing is on the wall for long enough now. In return many of us were name called and labelled for expressing those opinions. Many of us have already done our part.

They have made their bed and can lie in it

Have we though? Oh sure, we've been talking about it, complaining to others, referring to research and statistics to spread relevant knowledge to others, but... what have we really done? Even sending letters to your TD or such is rather wimpy a reaction.

There has been very little dedicated efforts by people to deal with what's been going on. We allowed ourselves to be browbeaten into silence. I suspect a large part is a reaction to feminism, and other minority causes, which alienated and ostracized those who spoke against them. The fear of being caategorised as a racist, bigot, sexist, whatever, has been extremely effective in maintaining a culture of silence on various topics. I see that same culture of silence in China about their society.. in China it's historical culture and wariness of the government. For us, it's fear of the activists, and wariness of being targeted... but we have still allowed a culture of silence to establish itself in "free" western nations.

No. I don't think anyone can really sit back in comfort thinking that they've already done their part... because the results of the past two decades can be seen everywhere. Rising poverty, fluctuating crime, changes in the types of crime, inequalities, etc.. and then there's immigration and multiculturalism. To further exasperate the situation.

While we allow that culture of silence, where people are pushed on to the internet to voice their concerns (and so be dismissed easily), we haven't even begun to do our part. While objections to the status quo are allowed to be labelled as 'far/alt right', we're not doing our part.

We're simply floating, hoping that others will step up, push through the ugly resistance of other groups/agencies, and initiate positive change, while we cheer on from the sidelines.

Esho

ExMachina1000 wrote: »

Many of us have already woken up and have been talking about how the writing is on the wall for long enough now. In return many of us were name called and labelled for expressing those opinions. Many of us have already done our part.

They have made their bed and can lie in it

I'm interested, what is the part that you have done?

ExMachina1000

Esho wrote: »

I'm interested, what is the part that you have done?

Tried using facts ,figures and logic to try and convince friends, family and online folk about what I feel are the the long and short term downsides of mass immigration into Europe and Ireland in particular. Spoke about how rational discussion and debate at government level is needed.

What are your views? What have you done and what do you see yourself do in the future? Maybe you can give me some pointers or suggestions.

ExMachina1000

ExMachina1000 wrote: »

Tried using facts ,figures and logic to try and convince friends, family and online folk about what I feel are the the long and short term downsides of mass immigration into Europe and Ireland in particular. Spoke about how rational discussion and debate at government level is needed.

What are your views? What have you done and what do you see yourself do in the future? Maybe you can give me some pointers or suggestions.

So just argued against it, basically.
Didn't try to change anything meaningful about the immigration then.

ExMachina1000

bubblypop wrote: »

So just argued against it, basically.
Didn't try to change anything meaningful about the immigration then.

"Change anything meaningful"

Did I not go far enough by trying to start a discussion?

Can you give me some examples or suggestions please

Sand

Kivaro wrote: »

What usually happens on here is the usual "nazi/racist" accusation for merely suggesting that abhorrent behavour like this is actually happening in a modern, western European society. But when the Justice Minister of Belgium is announcing that women and members of the LGBT community are living in fear in a progressive society, then ALL of us need to wake up. We cannot cloak it anymore. It's not left versus right anymore. It is decency versus an abhorrent behavior that needs to be addressed. 80% of women in parts of a "modern" western capital city in a European country feel unsafe going out by themselves in their own neighbourhoods. Is this right? Maybe, just maybe, the people who are forcing this upon us are wrong. Maybe now, we can question it?

And why is Ireland different?

This presumes that European governments make policy based on the evidence and aimed at achieving the good outcomes for European people. It clearly isnt. It is faith based, and good outcomes for Europeans clearly isnt a priority.

Evidence regarding the negative outcomes of mass migration into Europe is often hidden by European governments, and NGOs/media will often attempt to shame or criminalize individuals or groups that draw attention to whatever evidence cannot be fully hidden. You cant reason with extremists, especially hostile extremists. They know it is bad for indigenous Europeans. That is the point.

Even advocates for mass migration against the interests of indigenous Europeans know they don't achieve their agenda by explaining why their idea is the best idea. Exhibit A:

bubblypop wrote: »

So just argued against it, basically.
Didn't try to change anything meaningful about the immigration then.

In a functioning democracy, voters arguing against a bad policy would be sufficiently meaningful. But its mocked by people like bubblypop because if it was a functional democracy, mass migration against the interests of indigenous Europeans would never have been pursued in the first place.

That is why they don't consider it meaningful to have simply tried to raise awareness with your family, friends and neighbors. Voters don't get a say in making policy. To make policy you need an NGO. You need direct access to ministers and civil servants. You need a friendly media that will support your case. You need TD staff attending your seminars for 'training'. Above all, you need money. That is how policy is made.

ExMachina1000

ExMachina1000 wrote: »

"Change anything meaningful"

Did I not go far enough by trying to start a discussion?

Can you give me some examples or suggestions please

Can you not think of anything positive to do?
Or are you just against immigration, full stop?
I know some here are, and they are entitled to their opinion.

BensMixed

Deleted User wrote: »

Have we though? Oh sure, we've been talking about it, complaining to others, referring to research and statistics to spread relevant knowledge to others, but... what have we really done? Even sending letters to your TD or such is rather wimpy a reaction.

There has been very little dedicated efforts by people to deal with what's been going on. We allowed ourselves to be browbeaten into silence. I suspect a large part is a reaction to feminism, and other minority causes, which alienated and ostracized those who spoke against them. The fear of being caategorised as a racist, bigot, sexist, whatever, has been extremely effective in maintaining a culture of silence on various topics. I see that same culture of silence in China about their society.. in China it's historical culture and wariness of the government. For us, it's fear of the activists, and wariness of being targeted... but we have still allowed a culture of silence to establish itself in "free" western nations.

No. I don't think anyone can really sit back in comfort thinking that they've already done their part... because the results of the past two decades can be seen everywhere. Rising poverty, fluctuating crime, changes in the types of crime, inequalities, etc.. and then there's immigration and multiculturalism. To further exasperate the situation.

While we allow that culture of silence, where people are pushed on to the internet to voice their concerns (and so be dismissed easily), we haven't even begun to do our part. While objections to the status quo are allowed to be labelled as 'far/alt right', we're not doing our part.

We're simply floating, hoping that others will step up, push through the ugly resistance of other groups/agencies, and initiate positive change, while we cheer on from the sidelines.

Could the reason you're fighting such an uphill battle and getting absolutely nowhere be because your views are in the minority with respect to the wider population? There does seem to be a disconnect with actual reality in a lot of the anti-immigration lads on here. An inability to accept the inevitable. Sometimes in life you have to face reality head on and just accept that whatever battle you are fighting is just one you cannot win. You might just be giving the people on the other side a great deal of satisfaction by watching you toiling and struggling in a completely hopeless fight that you've already lost but can't accept.

That might be one way of looking at it anyway.

Arthur Daley

When are we having the vote on it then? To test this public opinion you claim is pro open borders and increased dilution of indigenous people. With a full debate and an open platform.

Whenever you are ready. Lets be having ya.

Kivaro

The last time that the Irish population got the opportunity to vote on a related issue in 2004, we voted overwhelming (80%) to stop the abuse of our citizenship laws by economic migrants and international welfare shoppers. Even though the NGO lobby and the Labour party are now trying to reverse the Will of the People, the vast majority in this country sided with reason. If we had a similar referendum to stop the Green Party's illegal preference of providing own-door homes within 4 months of arriving here to economic migrants who declare asylum after traveling from safe countries, we would have a similar outcome. There would also be a resounding "Yes" to stop the rate of inward non-EU migration by economic migrants, as we just cannot cope with such a high percentage of certain ethnic groups who permanently require social welfare/housing/medical etc. assistance when they get here.

If the Irish people were provided with a similar opportunity that the Swiss people are allowed with referendums, then we would have a much fairer and equal society in Ireland, as the majority would indeed have their say.

TomTomTim

BensMixed wrote: »

Could the reason you're fighting such an uphill battle and getting absolutely nowhere be because your views are in the minority with respect to the wider population? There does seem to be a disconnect with actual reality in a lot of the anti-immigration lads on here. An inability to accept the inevitable. Sometimes in life you have to face reality head on and just accept that whatever battle you are fighting is just one you cannot win. You might just be giving the people on the other side a great deal of satisfaction by watching you toiling and struggling in a completely hopeless fight that you've already lost but can't accept.

That might be one way of looking at it anyway.

Most data goes against your opinion:

Most Europeans want less migration: survey

More than half of Europeans want fewer immigrants to move to their country, according to a new survey published Monday.

Fifty-one percent of those surveyed from 10 EU countries — Greece, Hungary, Italy, Germany, Sweden, Poland, France, the Netherlands, the U.K. and Spain — said fewer or no immigrants should be allowed to move to their country, compared to a worldwide average of 45 percent, Pew Research Center found.

Thirty-five percent of European respondents said they wanted about the same number of immigrants to come to their countries, while 10 percent said their countries should allow more immigrants.

Large majorities in Greece (82 percent), Hungary (72 percent), Italy (71 percent) and Germany (58 percent) said fewer immigrants or no immigrants at all should be allowed to move to their countries. The number of people who supported less migration was less than half in France (41 percent), the Netherlands (39 percent), the U.K. (37 percent) and Spain (30 percent).

According to the study, many respondents also worry about people moving away to work in another country. Among the European countries surveyed, Greece and Spain — two countries that have seen significant numbers of people move abroad since the 2008 financial crisis — had the highest shares of people who said this was a very big or moderately big problem, at 89 percent and 88 percent respectively. Dutch (19 percent) and Swedish (18 percent) respondents worried the least about this.

The survey was published on the same day that more than 150 countries ratified an international U.N. migration pact that had triggered infighting in ruling parties and governments across Europe.

There's very few studies or surveys that show Europeans wanting to add even more to their population, it nearly always goes the other way. Your hubris here is completely unjustified, yet that won't stop your from arguing with arrogance about a topic you've no right to be arrogant about.

rgossip30

The sheer numbers involved in this online crime are startling !!

https://www.msn.com/en-ie/news/newsireland/over-700-suspected-money-mules-identified-as-gardaí-warn-theyre-destroying-their-futures/ar-BB1ewEjn?li=BBr5KbJ

BensMixed

BensMixed wrote: »

Could the reason you're fighting such an uphill battle and getting absolutely nowhere be because your views are in the minority with respect to the wider population? There does seem to be a disconnect with actual reality in a lot of the anti-immigration lads on here.

How is there a disconnect? You've only recently come to the thread, so unless you've done some extensive reading of past pages, you're making a range of assumptions about my views.

In any case, my view on immigration is mostly aimed at the Australian model of skilled labpr for which there is a definite need, along with sponsors who would be held accountable for the behavior of migrants while in the country. A graded system where citizenship isn't the first step, but rather the last, with a number of stages before that, like residency, so that we can have time to assess whether migrants are a worthy addition to the country.

The problem with your post is that you've applied blanket assumptions to me, without dealing in any specifics. Just as, I'm not anti-immigration. I favor a planned, and efficient system that protects both the indigenous people and the migrants themselves, ensuring that there are jobs available capable of providing an income to allow these migrants to live a life that is comparable with the average Irish person.. as opposed to people like yourself, who don't seem to care if migrants have that capability, and shrug as various groups join a growing bitter underclass..

Yup. I can make assumptions too.

An inability to accept the inevitable. Sometimes in life you have to face reality head on and just accept that whatever battle you are fighting is just one you cannot win.

What's inevitable? Ireland is still a democracy. That the electorate is still largely uninformed due to the agendas of the government, and the media, to present immigration in the best possible light, doesn't negate the possibility that Irish people will wise up, and seek an alternative to the mess that has happened in Europe. Multiculturalism, and diversity isn't all that has been promised, and honestly, I'm actually quite hopeful for the future, because people are progressively becoming more pissed off at our politicians, and the groups of foreigners being given supports here.

You might just be giving the people on the other side a great deal of satisfaction by watching you toiling and struggling in a completely hopeless fight that you've already lost but can't accept.

Possibly. Our they don't care one way or another.

The funny thing is that you're showing your ignorance of my past here, which I've posted to the thread. I've worked as a volunteer in Africa, and spent time with a few of the international NGO's. There was a time when I did know many of the people who would be championing these causes... Alas, I quickly realised that this is more about stroking ones own ego, that providing lasting positive change in foreign countries.

That might be one way of looking at it anyway.

What? You think we haven't considered such a simplistic viewpoint? Come on, you can do better than that.

jmreire

BensMixed wrote: »

Could the reason you're fighting such an uphill battle and getting absolutely nowhere be because your views are in the minority with respect to the wider population? There does seem to be a disconnect with actual reality in a lot of the anti-immigration lads on here. An inability to accept the inevitable. Sometimes in life you have to face reality head on and just accept that whatever battle you are fighting is just one you cannot win. You might just be giving the people on the other side a great deal of satisfaction by watching you toiling and struggling in a completely hopeless fight that you've already lost but can't accept.

That might be one way of looking at it anyway.

Just because there's not a focal point for it, does not mean it does not exist . There's quite groundswell of discussion about asylum seekers and immigrant nr's amongst people, and its for sure being spoken about more and more, and its not going to go away either. .IF and its a big IF, we had the oppurtunity to hold a referendum on the subject, I'd be betting on a similar result to the last one on automatic citizenship. Bear in mind the results of the last GE, none of the political pundits foresaw the swing of first preference vote for SF.....and that was due to nothing other than a population sick and tired of FFFG..there were no focal points etc. The same thing is happening again....the population feels that they are not being listened to, or decisions taken are not in their best interests.

Biafranlivemat

rgossip30 wrote: »

The sheer numbers involved in this online crime are startling !!

https://www.msn.com/en-ie/news/newsireland/over-700-suspected-money-mules-identified-as-gardaí-warn-theyre-destroying-their-futures/ar-BB1ewEjn?li=BBr5KbJ

A friend of one of my sons, fell for this scam, he was promised $20,000 payment only got $1400.Make matters worse, the IRS (taxman) started asking questions about the large money transfers and unpaid taxes on his bank account.

Biafranlivemat

Biafranlivemat wrote: »

A friend of one of my sons, fell for this scam, he was promised $20,000 payment only got $1400.Make matters worse, the IRS (taxman) started asking questions about the large money transfers and unpaid taxes on his bank account.

Yea, that's what happens when you get involved in money laundering!

Parachutes

We should allow immigration from first world countries, especially English speaking ones. We should also have a points system in place for those from third world countries who have skills and qualifications that can benefit us. Any other type of immigration hurts us.

Real Donald Trump

Ireland owes these people nothing, lets look after our own first please, then we an consider helping others, the way it should be...

biko

France, Switzerland, Belgium, Congo, Chad, Gabon, Bulgaria, Latvia, Austria, Denmark and now Sri Lanka.
All have banned face covering veils.

It's time for Ireland to follow suit.

ExMachina1000

biko wrote: »

France, Switzerland, Belgium, Congo, Chad, Gabon, Bulgaria, Latvia, Austria, Denmark and now Sri Lanka.
All have banned face covering veils.

It's time for Ireland to follow suit.

The above are a list of countries who are attempting to disincentivise Islamic immigration.

They may decide to go to countries without such rules. So in addition to normal immigration flows there will also be increased numbers due to those who have decided against going to the above list