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What are your views on Multiculturalism in Ireland? - Threadbanned User List in OP
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We can't stop the worst of Islam to happen everywhere, but we can stop it here.0
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We can't stop the worst of Islam to happen everywhere, but we can stop it here.
While I agree in part, I actually think that ship has sailed.
The time to have done that would have been a decade or two ago, when numbers were more manageable. There's just too much focus on allowing other cultures to behave as they wish.. as a right for them to behave as they wish..0 -
Deleted User wrote: »While I agree in part, I actually think that ship has sailed.
The time to have done that would have been a decade or two ago, when numbers were more manageable. There's just too much focus on allowing other cultures to behave as they wish.. as a right for them to behave as they wish..
Democracy will be the death of democracy........0 -
Democracy will be the death of democracy........
Yes and no. I don't think democracy in it's current form is likely to survive, nor should it.
The average punter has very little actual influence, when it comes down to one party being ousted for a few years, for another party with similar lukewarm differences, and a disinterest in truly representing people. Most western democracies have gone the way of representing the elite, the truly wealthy, and the corporations.. so I suspect we'll see an eruption of emotions at some point, with very destructive results. There seems to be a pattern in human civilisations along these lines, which is exaggerated now due to the internet, and the similarities within all western cultures.
There will likely be a pushback at some point when it comes to non-western cultures. An expulsion of foreign ideas that run counter to what real people want to embrace, and more importantly, to support or even tolerate. People seem to forget that we've already had this happen before in other countries in one form or another. Fascism was just one example of it. There's been plenty of other expressions along similar lines.0 -
Deleted User wrote: »Yes and no. I don't think democracy in it's current form is likely to survive, nor should it.
The average punter has very little actual influence, when it comes down to one party being ousted for a few years, for another party with similar lukewarm differences, and a disinterest in truly representing people. Most western democracies have gone the way of representing the elite, the truly wealthy, and the corporations.. so I suspect we'll see an eruption of emotions at some point, with very destructive results. There seems to be a pattern in human civilisations along these lines, which is exaggerated now due to the internet, and the similarities within all western cultures.
There will likely be a pushback at some point when it comes to non-western cultures. An expulsion of foreign ideas that run counter to what real people want to embrace, and more importantly, to support or even tolerate. People seem to forget that we've already had this happen before in other countries in one form or another. Fascism was just one example of it. There's been plenty of other expressions along similar lines.
I agree 100%, and theres no better example of it than American style democracy,,effectively big corporations run America. no doubt about it. But what I mean is that here in Ireland and in other "Democratic " western nations, foreigners are allowed to bring their own culture with them, and actively propagate it and to change our native culture, in a way that would not be tolerated in the Countrys that they come from....largely because they don't allow "Democracy".0 -
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Deleted User wrote: »While I agree in part, I actually think that ship has sailed.
The time to have done that would have been a decade or two ago, when numbers were more manageable. There's just too much focus on allowing other cultures to behave as they wish.. as a right for them to behave as they wish..
I often wonder why we can't be like the UAE for example on immigration. It's a small country and very open to immigrants many of which can have a great time there as long as they aren't lower tier construction workers.
But they have a catch which is your welcome but if you step out of line at all your gone. They'll pack your bags or throw you in jail before they pack your bags. It doesn't matter where you are from.
Long story short you abide by their rules, have a job and stay within the law or you take the consequences.
I also think you can't permanently live there, there is no pension, no right to welfare and you have to return home once your work life is done. These are restricted to Emirati.
I don't get what is so bad about a policy like that in western countries.
It seems so straight forward and fair on the host population.0 -
I agree 100%, and theres no better example of it than American style democracy,,effectively big corporations run America. no doubt about it. But what I mean is that here in Ireland and in other "Democratic " western nations, foreigners are allowed to bring their own culture with them, and actively propagate it and to change our native culture, in a way that would not be tolerated in the Countrys that they come from....largely because they don't allow "Democracy".
I actually had a conversation along these lines with my brother last night. He lived in England for close to two decades, then France, and finally settled in Spain. Now he's back in Ireland after experiencing some of what Europe has to offer, and he's actually quite bitter over how he was treated. As an Irish person, and his wife an English person.
We like to think of western culture of a bloc of similar culture, and values. There are gigantic differences in attitudes and behaviors between Northern, and Southern Europe. The South is far more corrupt, more flexible with honesty, and are more likely to make friends for the sake of some perceived benefit. Whereas the North is far closer to a regulated society, a willingness to censor themselves, etc. And then, Ireland and Britain are somewhere in the middle.
Few countries in the world are truly welcoming to foreigners. Not simply welcoming but accepting without reservations. The Ireland of my youth was very much that way. Oh sure, young people and activists go on about the "far right" in Ireland, but compared to other nations there is extremely little racial superiority going on here. We simply don't have the history, or culture to tolerate it. And yes, we have our degrees of racism towards Travellers, but frankly, they've brought it upon themselves, in the face of a myriad attempts to integrate them into mainstream society.
The truth is most countries see foreigners as foreigners. Race is part of it, but nationality is a greater factor. It's amazing how fragmented European countries are whether it's France with people identifying with Normandy, and Burgundy. Or any number of other allegiance that people still manage to hold going back hundreds of years.
Spain being an excellent example, with the anger and distrust that the north has for the south, the dislike everyone has for Madrid, even distrust between neighboring states, going back to unification period. It's common throughout Europe, especially in the South, but it's something that extends to other Europeans.
IMHO Ireland is, or was, the most welcoming and accepting nation in Europe. England made a stab at it but they had too many issues with colonialism for it to truly succeed, although they've done pretty well, all things considered. However, I suspect that honeymoon period of welcoming by Irish people is coming to an end. And perhaps, it's a good thing that Irish people are starting to lose that innocence, because God knows, others will take advantage of it.0 -
Kermit.de.frog wrote: »It seems so straight forward and fair on the host population.
Ahh... no... that's a swing too far to the side for me. I've spent time there, and if you have no desire to live there long-term, it's fine... there's little chance of any kind of stable future. (As an expat for over a decade, stability is increasingly important to me)They're incredibly racist towards all groups of people, and are often horrible to their own people.
I'm not anti-immigration. I'm not against the assimilation of other cultural/racist groups. I don't believe Ireland should become a fortress against foreign influence in the form of immigration.
I just want a well-thought out system, based on unbiased research, that caters to both the natives and foreign born, with the realistic ambition of providing a safe environment for both. Yes, I believe that any such system needs to have a dominant native culture that is not open to significant change to accommodate the desires of foreign cultural groups... but I wouldn't want Ireland to turn into other countries like the UAE or the US.0 -
Deleted User wrote: »I actually had a conversation along these lines with my brother last night. He lived in England for close to two decades, then France, and finally settled in Spain. Now he's back in Ireland after experiencing some of what Europe has to offer, and he's actually quite bitter over how he was treated. As an Irish person, and his wife an English person.
We like to think of western culture of a bloc of similar culture, and values. There are gigantic differences in attitudes and behaviors between Northern, and Southern Europe. The South is far more corrupt, more flexible with honesty, and are more likely to make friends for the sake of some perceived benefit. Whereas the North is far closer to a regulated society, a willingness to censor themselves, etc. And then, Ireland and Britain are somewhere in the middle.
Few countries in the world are truly welcoming to foreigners. Not simply welcoming but accepting without reservations. The Ireland of my youth was very much that way. Oh sure, young people and activists go on about the "far right" in Ireland, but compared to other nations there is extremely little racial superiority going on here. We simply don't have the history, or culture to tolerate it. And yes, we have our degrees of racism towards Travellers, but frankly, they've brought it upon themselves, in the face of a myriad attempts to integrate them into mainstream society.
The truth is most countries see foreigners as foreigners. Race is part of it, but nationality is a greater factor. It's amazing how fragmented European countries are whether it's France with people identifying with Normandy, and Burgundy. Or any number of other allegiance that people still manage to hold going back hundreds of years.
Spain being an excellent example, with the anger and distrust that the north has for the south, the dislike everyone has for Madrid, even distrust between neighboring states, going back to unification period. It's common throughout Europe, especially in the South, but it's something that extends to other Europeans.
IMHO Ireland is, or was, the most welcoming and accepting nation in Europe. England made a stab at it but they had too many issues with colonialism for it to truly succeed, although they've done pretty well, all things considered. However, I suspect that honeymoon period of welcoming by Irish people is coming to an end. And perhaps, it's a good thing that Irish people are starting to lose that innocence, because God knows, others will take advantage of it.
I think you've got a pretty warped sense of reality if that's what you really think. People are not sitting there judging you immediately as a foreigner to the point where you become this disillusioned. If I met someone in real life who thought like this I think I'd run a mile. That might have something to do with your brothers situation if you share the same mindset. I think views like this would be a self fulfilling prophecy and lead to a lonely existence.0 -
I think you've got a pretty warped sense of reality if that's what you really think. People are not sitting there judging you immediately as a foreigner to the point where you become this disillusioned. If I met someone in real life who thought like this I think I'd run a mile. That might have something to do with your brothers situation if you share the same mindset. I think views like this would be a self fulfilling prophecy and lead to a lonely existence.
It's funny how "lived experiences", something often pushed by people like yourself in regard to claims from minorities, is only a concept applied to minorities. Why is that? What is it about a minorities perception of something that makes it worth more than a native Europeans? If klaz was speaking about a minority experiencing racism, and someone denied it, you'd be outraged. Yet a native makes a similar claim, and you rush to downplay it.“The man who lies to himself can be more easily offended than anyone else. You know it is sometimes very pleasant to take offense, isn't it? A man may know that nobody has insulted him, but that he has invented the insult for himself, has lied and exaggerated to make it picturesque, has caught at a word and made a mountain out of a molehill--he knows that himself, yet he will be the first to take offense, and will revel in his resentment till he feels great pleasure in it.”-― Fyodor Dostoevsky, The Brothers Karamazov0 -
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I think you've got a pretty warped sense of reality if that's what you really think.
Right back at you... but then, you haven't defended your previous points, so I suspect you're just here spouting impulses rather than engaging in a discussion.People are not sitting there judging you immediately as a foreigner to the point where you become this disillusioned. If I met someone in real life who thought like this I think I'd run a mile. That might have something to do with your brothers situation if you share the same mindset. I think views like this would be a self fulfilling prophecy and lead to a lonely existence.
I think you're remarkably naive, or probably just have very limited experience of living abroad. Likely your total experience is based on living in Ireland, and so, you look at the world through the lens of Irish culture, and that acceptance that most Irish people have towards other groups.
So.. are you going to defend your past statements?0 -
It's funny how "lived experiences", something often pushed by people like yourself in regard to claims from minorities, is only a concept applied to minorities. Why is that? What is it about a minorities perception of something that makes it worth more than a native Europeans? If klaz was speaking about a minority experiencing racism, and someone denied it, you'd be outraged. Yet a native makes a similar claim, and you rush to downplay it.
Indeed, and the only perspectives on migration to Ireland deemed valid are those of the migrants themselves. Can you imagine a counterpoint to Sorcha Pollak's "New to the Parish" where Irish people were asked for their honest opinions on the positives and negatives of immigration in their cities, towns and villages? And if not, why not?0 -
Deleted User wrote: »Right back at you... but then, you haven't defended your previous points, so I suspect you're just here spouting impulses rather than engaging in a discussion.
I think you're remarkably naive, or probably just have very limited experience of living abroad. Likely your total experience is based on living in Ireland, and so, you look at the world through the lens of Irish culture, and that acceptance that most Irish people have towards other groups.
So.. are you going to defend your past statements?
I have done a fair bit of traveling and always taken each person as an individual. If I meet a traveller or a black person or an asian person etc, I'm not judging them as a foreigner, I'm evaluating them as a person. I've been lucky enough to have friendships with all of those people and I was very touched by some of the things they experience. There is a real injustice that you feel when you see a friend who you really like and respect having had racist experiences. Most people I've met have been nice people who I wouldn't have any issue with and who also evaluate a person based on their individual character. I think in real life you might just come across as someone who has thousands of posts against multiculturalism on an internet forum.0 -
Grand, BensMixed... you have no interest in defending your points.
I'll leave it to others to engage with you.0 -
https://twitter.com/disclosetv/status/1372206458784337922
I'm not too sure what I think of this. It's good that they are reacting to the problem, but at the same time it seems that they are reacting too late.“The man who lies to himself can be more easily offended than anyone else. You know it is sometimes very pleasant to take offense, isn't it? A man may know that nobody has insulted him, but that he has invented the insult for himself, has lied and exaggerated to make it picturesque, has caught at a word and made a mountain out of a molehill--he knows that himself, yet he will be the first to take offense, and will revel in his resentment till he feels great pleasure in it.”-― Fyodor Dostoevsky, The Brothers Karamazov0 -
I'm not too sure what I think of this. It's good that they are reacting to the problem, but at the same time it seems that they are reacting too late.
They're testing the water to see if they receive much in the way of international backlash.
It's great that they're reacting to the problem, and I suspect this will be only the first step, as they gain in confidence and realise that they're not beholden to anyone else as regards their domestic stability and security.
As for reacting too late, we're all in the same boat there. The last decade of immigration for Europe has put us there... the optimum time to resolve the problems has passed.. and we can only work against the tide that has already gained momentum.. a harder struggle but still possible to achieve if enough nations decide to implement similar policies.0 -
https://twitter.com/disclosetv/status/1372206458784337922
I'm not too sure what I think of this. It's good that they are reacting to the problem, but at the same time it seems that they are reacting too late.
It should be a lesson to us. We are in the early stages and the likes of Denmark obviously regret how they have let their immigration progress.
Can you imagine what sort of social cohesion we will have if Coveney's 2040 plan goes ahead.0 -
https://twitter.com/disclosetv/status/1372206458784337922
I'm not too sure what I think of this. It's good that they are reacting to the problem, but at the same time it seems that they are reacting too late.
It seems unworkable. Are they going to dictate where people live with ethnic quotas? You have to presume any such authoritarian measures are going to collapse under the slightest legal challenge unless there is a significant reset to the constitutional framework of the country and indeed the EU.Deleted User wrote: »Can you imagine what sort of social cohesion we will have if Coveney's 2040 plan goes ahead.
We're already at more than 17% foreign born residents, not counting their descendants born in Ireland. If half of population growth to 2040 is presumed to be foreign born migration it implies the majority of "Irish" population growth over the next 20 years will be either born outside Ireland, or will be the descendants of those foreign born people already here or soon to be here.
So by 2040, Irish population will join Irish GDP as a statistic that will need to be considered with some qualifications.0 -
It seems unworkable. Are they going to dictate where people live with ethnic quotas? You have to presume any such authoritarian measures are going to collapse under the slightest legal challenge unless there is a significant reset to the constitutional framework of the country and indeed the EU.
Dunno. I suspect that they would have checked it out thoroughly before announcing the intention. This is Denmark, after all. Between the shipping and insurance trade, they're well set up with a host of companies with extensive legal backgrounds.
Who knows what arrangements they made when they joined the EU, and whether they have their own way of handling it. It's not as if their reluctance to welcome foreign born populations is a new thing... so I would imagine they have some concessions that are workable. Still, I'm just guessing.
I think they'd be better off with deportations, and expulsion of those they don't want to be there. Might be easier to revoke residency, and other visas first, and work their way towards those with citizenship.0 -
I wonder are a lot of the Danish announcements meant to deter people from coming in the first place? A bit like the hostile environment in the UK under Theresa May.0
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https://twitter.com/disclosetv/status/1372206458784337922
I'm not too sure what I think of this. It's good that they are reacting to the problem, but at the same time it seems that they are reacting too late.
I wonder how this will work though, because traditionally youd get to 20 odd% and white flight kicks in and leaves houses vacant, while also upping the percentage . Do you just leave a load ofvacant homes or allow non western cultures in to create a ghetto.0 -
I wonder are a lot of the Danish announcements meant to deter people from coming in the first place? A bit like the hostile environment in the UK under Theresa May.
Well if May had a "hostile" attitude to migrants / asylum seekers, see what Priti Patel has coming down the line..No asylum/migration applications accepted on the British mainland,,,,,current and all future applicants must apply from other Countrys or off shore islands. And straight off, all asylum seekers etc. passing through a safe 3rd Country, will be automatically denied entry, and deported. Possible "processing centres include Ascension Island, Gibralter,Isle of Man and other offshore Islands. Article is on the Guardian.0 -
Of course this is how it should be done in Europe, as it will bring a halt to the massive inward migration of non-EU economic migrants, and it will also stop migrant deaths in the Med.Well if May had a "hostile" attitude to migrants / asylum seekers, see what Priti Patel has coming down the line..No asylum/migration applications accepted on the British mainland,,,,,current and all future applicants must apply from other Countrys or off shore islands. And straight off, all asylum seekers etc. passing through a safe 3rd Country, will be automatically denied entry, and deported. Possible "processing centres include Ascension Island, Gibralter,Isle of Man and other offshore Islands. Article is on the Guardian.
But what are we are doing in Ireland? Roderic O' Gorman and the Green Party are completely reversing the trend happening in the UK and Europe and will actually force the Irish people to provide every single asylum seeker who can get to our shores their own home within 4 months of getting here. You would want to have a very sheltered life not to realise that this will only dramatically increase our asylum intake. Even the migrant President Joe Biden is telling migrants not to come to the US, but O' Gorman, with his no-cap policy, is inviting all and sundry with his free home offer. And if Priti Patel implements what is quoted above, Ireland will be inundated with UK asylum seekers, as we will provide them with a backdoor into the country.
It makes no sense. Sometimes we are just a very weird country.0 -
Well if May had a "hostile" attitude to migrants / asylum seekers, see what Priti Patel has coming down the line..No asylum/migration applications accepted on the British mainland,,,,,current and all future applicants must apply from other Countrys or off shore islands. And straight off, all asylum seekers etc. passing through a safe 3rd Country, will be automatically denied entry, and deported. Possible "processing centres include Ascension Island, Gibralter,Isle of Man and other offshore Islands. Article is on the Guardian.
It's funny how the legal immigrants and children of legal immigrants are so often the toughest when it comes to cracking down on illegal migrants. They truly know the struggle and the hoops their families had to jump through to get to Western countries. They understand the precedent and consequences that would be set from allowing people to jump the queue.0 -
Deleted User wrote: »It's funny how the legal immigrants and children of legal immigrants are so often the toughest when it comes to cracking down on illegal migrants. They truly know the struggle and the hoops their families had to jump through to get to Western countries. They understand the precedent and consequences that would be set from allowing people to jump the queue.
The flips side is the host of them working as activists, solicitors, or professors of some associated material.0 -
Well if May had a "hostile" attitude to migrants / asylum seekers, see what Priti Patel has coming down the line..No asylum/migration applications accepted on the British mainland,,,,,current and all future applicants must apply from other Countrys or off shore islands. And straight off, all asylum seekers etc. passing through a safe 3rd Country, will be automatically denied entry, and deported. Possible "processing centres include Ascension Island, Gibralter,Isle of Man and other offshore Islands. Article is on the Guardian.
That sounds like a brilliant way to deal with the problem0 -
They will just come to Ireland instead. Why would you see yourself shipped to an island to live in a cabin for an unknown amount of time when you can come to wealthy Ireland and get your very own house and benefits after 4 months. No questions asked.
There is no other country on the planet offering such a "deal"
A blind man can see how this is going to go for little old Ireland0 -
To answer the thread title, I would be far more receptive of some cultures than others. South American and South Eastern Asia people are generally good contributors so society overall.
Then there are other cultures not dissimilar in how they behave to our ethnic status brethren in regards to criminality. A huge chunk of these people dislike the Irish in general and only at the weekend I seen posts online by them talking of repossessing the place. Tools. I certainly believe some cultures fit in more well here than others and we should be doing our best to keep the troublemakers out.0 -
If it means importing more of these sort of characters https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/courts/man-accused-of-sex-assault-on-teen-who-was-shopping-with-mother-40210022.html then the answer is no thanks.0
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By 2040 Ireland will have half a million of them.0
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