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What are your views on Multiculturalism in Ireland? - Threadbanned User List in OP
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Doctor Roast wrote: »I've seen an example of this the other day, I was driving through a town called Balrothery,just outside Balbriggan, lovely little town, on each side of the road there was picnic tables, Irish kids on one side, Nigerian kids on the other... You could sense the tension even driving by.
Its almost as if 100s of thousands of years of Ingrained tribalism cant be just washed away in 20 years.0 -
Deleted User wrote: »Ahh... I can't actually agree. That really depends on the school, its' administration, and its' teachers. My mother was a principal of a Marist Brothers primary school, and while there were some issues when she was there, it's since turned the corner on any friction. I've taught there myself a few times, and the different groups tended to mix well. Parents are encouraged to be interested, and be involved in school activities, so there's a greater degree of interaction and socialising.
The vocational school (secondary) where my father taught also has a wide variety of racial/ethnic groups, and I rarely hear of any problems. TBH the schools are probably some of the best indication that multiculturalism could work, if it was approached in the right manner. Alas, in the broader context, it's not being approached in the right manner.
It really depends on the school. And the makeup of the students, and parents. And... well.. any number of factors. You see the same with "international schools" which tend to operate quite well, in spite of the abundance of different nationalities.
Um, you could sense the tension while driving by?
Kids tend to be above any of the tensions of multiculturalism. Their parents, sure, but even then, they have common ground, because of their kids...
Nah. Sorry.. I can see the problems with multiculturalism in terms of economics, and society, but children having a picnic isn't one of them. We are still in the covid era... distancing is a good thing.
constant running battles in some areas of Dublin , many many individual incidents of race related attacks and assaults , more than a few murders race related and the ages would suggest you are completely incorrect.
when teenagers get to a certain age they group together naturally and tensions arise between groups , be it geographical areas in a city or town , race religion or cultural differences
it was happening years before I was in school and the addition of more violent cultural groups is intensive the problem for todays teenagers
to ignore this is simply a easy way to ignore what's going on in the real world0 -
[Deleted User] wrote: »Ahh... I can't actually agree. That really depends on the school, its' administration, and its' teachers. My mother was a principal of a Marist Brothers primary school, and while there were some issues when she was there, it's since turned the corner on any friction. I've taught there myself a few times, and the different groups tended to mix well. Parents are encouraged to be interested, and be involved in school activities, so there's a greater degree of interaction and socialising.
The vocational school (secondary) where my father taught also has a wide variety of racial/ethnic groups, and I rarely hear of any problems. TBH the schools are probably some of the best indication that multiculturalism could work, if it was approached in the right manner. Alas, in the broader context, it's not being approached in the right manner.
It really depends on the school. And the makeup of the students, and parents. And... well.. any number of factors. You see the same with "international schools" which tend to operate quite well, in spite of the abundance of different nationalities.
Um, you could sense the tension while driving by?
Kids tend to be above any of the tensions of multiculturalism. Their parents, sure, but even then, they have common ground, because of their kids...
Nah. Sorry.. I can see the problems with multiculturalism in terms of economics, and society, but children having a picnic isn't one of them. We are still in the covid era... distancing is a good thing.
Yup, both groups were piking across at each other, I'm fairly street wise at noticing these things after a misspent youth..0 -
The amendment appears not very clear on the legal status of parents who can apply . The report mentions parents who were to be deported but the child would be stateless . In this case the the parents were not legally here ? This will facilitate those on lengthy appeals to remain .
https://www.msn.com/en-ie/news/newsireland/justice-minister-to-seek-cabinet-approval-to-reduce-wait-time-for-children-born-in-ireland-to-gain-citizenship/ar-BB1eRA2R?li=BBr5KbJ0 -
The amendment appears not very clear on the legal status of parents who can apply . The report mentions parents who were to be deported but the child would be stateless . In this case the the parents were not legally here ? This will facilitate those on lengthy appeals to remain .
https://www.msn.com/en-ie/news/newsireland/justice-minister-to-seek-cabinet-approval-to-reduce-wait-time-for-children-born-in-ireland-to-gain-citizenship/ar-BB1eRA2R?li=BBr5KbJ
Yup, seems like a backhanded way around the referendum result. Just have to have a kid and wait out the 3 years which with all the appeals is very easy and you get to stay here, since they won't deport the parents after the child is a citizen.0 -
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Instant citizenship for kids born here = Guaranteed citizenship for the parents.
Top that off with the promised own key accommodation for them within 4 months of arriving here?
I'm not one bit interested in conspiracy theories, but you have to ask. What is the end goal here for the government?0 -
Deleted User wrote: »Ahh... I can't actually agree. That really depends on the school, its' administration, and its' teachers. My mother was a principal of a Marist Brothers primary school, and while there were some issues when she was there, it's since turned the corner on any friction. I've taught there myself a few times, and the different groups tended to mix well. Parents are encouraged to be interested, and be involved in school activities, so there's a greater degree of interaction and socialising.
The vocational school (secondary) where my father taught also has a wide variety of racial/ethnic groups, and I rarely hear of any problems. TBH the schools are probably some of the best indication that multiculturalism could work, if it was approached in the right manner. Alas, in the broader context, it's not being approached in the right manner.
It really depends on the school. And the makeup of the students, and parents. And... well.. any number of factors. You see the same with "international schools" which tend to operate quite well, in spite of the abundance of different nationalities.
Um, you could sense the tension while driving by?
Kids tend to be above any of the tensions of multiculturalism. Their parents, sure, but even then, they have common ground, because of their kids...
Nah. Sorry.. I can see the problems with multiculturalism in terms of economics, and society, but children having a picnic isn't one of them. We are still in the covid era... distancing is a good thing.
My experience was as a parent rather than a teacher, so more up close and personal you might say. The individual families were mostly decent people but they simply had no interest in mixing outside their own group, which restricted the pool of potential outside school friendships. It's just human nature. If I were a Polish mum living here I'd probably hang round with other Polish mums and their kids. Which is grand. But it doesn't make for a cohesive happy school environment.
The key thing is numbers. A cohort of 10% of non-Irish background kids probably won't affect cohesion but once it gets to 40 or 50 or 60% it very much does. And that is the reality for many schools in Ireland, usually the ones who are under-resourced to begin with.0 -
Looks like our justice minister will today propose a move that will make it easier for children to obtain Irish citizenship.
From the Irish Examiner:
"Helen McEntee will bring a proposal to Cabinet which will ensure that children born here, but whose parents are not Irish citizens, and who are not entitled to citizenship at birth, can become citizens in three years instead of five. The proposal emerged from discussions between the minister and Labour senator Ivana Bacik on a private members bill from Ms Bacik in the Seanad last December."
This will encourage more migration into Ireland due to the ease of citizenship, as the parents will have an easier path for Irish citizenship due to their children's status. Of course all sensitivity should be accorded to children and their citizenship path, but it still astounds me that people like Ivana Bacik, from a very poorly supported political party, can wield so much power in Ireland.
One would also have to wonder if this is the start of the dismantling of the Irish Citizenship referendum that 80% of us in this country voted for?
Between this, and the draconian Direct Provision replacement plan that will be discriminatory against Irish citizens on housing lists in favour of asylum seekers, you have to question if the current progressive government is trying to sneak in these polices while the country is "distracted" with Covid hardships and restrictions.0 -
This happens in all countries with immigrants and those of different race they tend to identify and mix with their own nationality and race .clytemnestra wrote: »My experience was as a parent rather than a teacher, so more up close and personal you might say. The individual families were mostly decent people but they simply had no interest in mixing outside their own group, which restricted the pool of potential outside school friendships. It's just human nature. If I were a Polish mum living here I'd probably hang round with other Polish mums and their kids. Which is grand. But it doesn't make for a cohesive happy school environment.
The key thing is numbers. A cohort of 10% of non-Irish background kids probably won't affect cohesion but once it gets to 40 or 50 or 60% it very much does. And that is the reality for many schools in Ireland, usually the ones who are under-resourced to begin with.0 -
Roll on the next GE,,,,,,the sooner the better !!0
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Roll on the next GE,,,,,,the sooner the better !!
You really expect the next group in will be any different?
As long as RTE are plugging the pro-immigration line, there won't be any difference in the politicians on the topic of immigration, and allocation of benefits/supports.
There really needs to be a radical shift in thinking before there will be any significant change in that policy. We'd likely need a revolution with burning cars in the streets, and pickets outside the Dail, before they'd be willing to consider that they might be wrong in pushing this line.0 -
This happens in all countries with immigrants and those of different race they tend to identify and mix with their own nationality and race .
Yes I know, I've lived in other countries. You expect to see a mix of nationalities in large cities, whereas this diversity is now present in every part of Ireland, even small towns without enough employment for local people. Most of us would like our children to grow up in cohesive communities, not places that resemble the concourse of large international airports. In twenty years we've reached a stage where almost a fifth are foreign born and where Irish people are a minority in many parts of our two main cities. If you were to walk a time traveller from 1995 down O'Connell St now they wouldn't recognise it. And yet the government's appetite for more immigration is insatiable.0 -
Deleted User wrote: »You really expect the next group in will be any different?
As long as RTE are plugging the pro-immigration line, there won't be any difference in the politicians on the topic of immigration, and allocation of benefits/supports.
There really needs to be a radical shift in thinking before there will be any significant change in that policy. We'd likely need a revolution with burning cars in the streets, and pickets outside the Dail, before they'd be willing to consider that they might be wrong in pushing this line.
Well, I'm not so sure about that,,,in rural Ireland at any rate, people are discussing this amongst them selves, and any rural politician who has his finger on the pulse will be aware of it. Imagine the flak they are getting when immigrants are being housed ahead of the locals, and thats just one item. This rumbling of discontent was one of the reasons Sinn Fein took the most 1st preference votes in the last election...People felt ( and still do) that the govt has forgotten them, and definitely are not acting in their best interests.0 -
Deleted User wrote: »You really expect the next group in will be any different?
As long as RTE are plugging the pro-immigration line, there won't be any difference in the politicians on the topic of immigration, and allocation of benefits/supports.
There really needs to be a radical shift in thinking before there will be any significant change in that policy. We'd likely need a revolution with burning cars in the streets, and pickets outside the Dail, before they'd be willing to consider that they might be wrong in pushing this line.
Being able to discuss the topic on a national level would be a start. As bad as many European countries may be, there's at least the ability to discuss immigration on the radio or on TV. In Ireland it's the elephant in the room, it can only be discussed positively, anything else is heresy. This kind of mindset is honestly a throw back to the Soviet Union, where any societal issues that can be used against the ideology of the state, must be suppressed and never spoken of. Our masters have clearly learned nothing from the past, as that kind of mindset brought down the Soviet Union.“The man who lies to himself can be more easily offended than anyone else. You know it is sometimes very pleasant to take offense, isn't it? A man may know that nobody has insulted him, but that he has invented the insult for himself, has lied and exaggerated to make it picturesque, has caught at a word and made a mountain out of a molehill--he knows that himself, yet he will be the first to take offense, and will revel in his resentment till he feels great pleasure in it.”-― Fyodor Dostoevsky, The Brothers Karamazov0 -
clytemnestra wrote: »Most of us would like our children to grow up in cohesive communities, not places that resemble the concourse of large international airports. In twenty years we've reached a stage where almost a fifth are foreign born and where Irish people are a minority in many parts of our two main cities.
What does this mean? You have an issue with your kids growing up with kids who are not white Irish?
Why? Kids are kids I'm not sure what the problem is?
Also, I am 'foreign born' yet I'm 100% Irish, what's your issue with foreign born people?0 -
What does this mean? You have an issue with your kids growing up with kids who are not white Irish?
Why? Kids are kids I'm not sure what the problem is?
Also, I am 'foreign born' yet I'm 100% Irish, what's your issue with foreign born people?
Why do you persist with the same tactic of omitting their reason time and time again? It was explained, high levels of multiculturalism leads to less societal cohesion. You take that, and spin it into the most simplistic spin: "why do you hate foreigners".“The man who lies to himself can be more easily offended than anyone else. You know it is sometimes very pleasant to take offense, isn't it? A man may know that nobody has insulted him, but that he has invented the insult for himself, has lied and exaggerated to make it picturesque, has caught at a word and made a mountain out of a molehill--he knows that himself, yet he will be the first to take offense, and will revel in his resentment till he feels great pleasure in it.”-― Fyodor Dostoevsky, The Brothers Karamazov0 -
Why do you persist with the same tactic of omitting their reason time and time again? It was explained, high levels of multiculturalism leads to less societal cohesion. You take that, and spin it into the most simplistic spin: "why do you hate foreigners".
Kids will grow up in a cohesive society so long as adults allow them to.0 -
There's nothing inherently wrong with immigration. As long as it contributes to Irish society. Which in the main, it does.
The problem isn't with immigration per se.
The problem is that we have a cohort of people in this country who want immigrants to remain themselves, ie immigrants in a foreign land, and retain their own culture instead, of assimilating into Irish culture and becoming Irish, that they fit into neat racial/cultural profiles instead of being viewed as Irish and responsibility to society that comes with it. And God forbid you, as policy, place upon an immigrant the notion that it is they that have to adjust themselves and their world view to Irish culture/laws, and attempt to integrate in Irish life for the greater good.
Between work and neighbours, I reckon there's at least 10/11 different nationalities/cultural backgrounds I meet regularly and talk to. They just work and contribute, like the Irish (and much better than some Irish). For the most part, they and their kids mix with the Irish and are involved in different things, usually sports. In the end we're no different.
There's no reason why an immigrant can't fit into Irish society successfully, we have problems as a country, but for the most part we're decent and offer opportunity for those that want it.
But if you have no intention of contributing to the state, or to society, or expect Ireland to change to accommodate you and your world view, or expect to be treated differently because you're not Irish, then perhaps you shouldn't be allowed into the country as quite simply, you're not worth having.0 -
Well, I'm not so sure about that,,,in rural Ireland at any rate, people are discussing this amongst them selves, and any rural politician who has his finger on the pulse will be aware of it. Imagine the flak they are getting when immigrants are being housed ahead of the locals, and thats just one item. This rumbling of discontent was one of the reasons Sinn Fein took the most 1st preference votes in the last election...People felt ( and still do) that the govt has forgotten them, and definitely are not acting in their best interests.
SF have historically been very pro-immigration and pro asylum seekers. In fact their policies have usually been the more radical of all parties.0 -
Why do you persist with the same tactic of omitting their reason time and time again? It was explained, high levels of multiculturalism leads to less societal cohesion. You take that, and spin it into the most simplistic spin: "why do you hate foreigners".
Thanks. I ignore his goady posts as I don't believe they're in good faith.0 -
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Well, I'm not so sure about that,,,in rural Ireland at any rate, people are discussing this amongst them selves, and any rural politician who has his finger on the pulse will be aware of it. Imagine the flak they are getting when immigrants are being housed ahead of the locals, and thats just one item. This rumbling of discontent was one of the reasons Sinn Fein took the most 1st preference votes in the last election...People felt ( and still do) that the govt has forgotten them, and definitely are not acting in their best interests.
I'm not saying that the public aren't dissatisfied. I'm from the Midlands, and often hear residents complaining about how much their areas have changed over the last two decades. My own hometown has the demographic (in terms of who you see on the streets) makeup of a continental multicultural city. There's an obvious overabundance of foreigners represented, whether they're Eastern European, or other racial groups.
I am saying that the politicians don't care. Oh, sure a rural politician might raise the concerns of their supporters within the party meetings, but I've seen nothing to suggest that they're actually changing anything. We need a radical shift in how the electorate behaves.
As for choosing SF, hopefully people have since realised that SF are not there to represent anyone except themselves, and can't be trusted. TBH I see them as being worse than FF or FG... I hope to God that SF never actually get into power because the they've shown themselves to be pro-immigration, in addition to their other badly thought out beliefs.0 -
clytemnestra wrote: »Thanks. I ignore his goady posts as I don't believe they're in good faith.
You ignore them because you cannot answer them.0 -
SF have historically been very pro-immigration and pro asylum seekers. In fact their policies have usually been the more radical of all parties.
There was a very interesting discussion on here not too long ago about the perception of SF , not sure which thread though but it was very interesting.
Posters argued there is still a large amount of voters, mostly older who still view SF as the party for the working class with a Ireland/ Irish first focus. I see it with my own family, uncles who would have been supporters of SF in the North and the hunger strikers etc and view SF as the party of nationalist Irish people. As you say though they are much more of an open borders, social hot topic of the day party now.0 -
Being able to discuss the topic on a national level would be a start. As bad as many European countries may be, there's at least the ability to discuss immigration on the radio or on TV. In Ireland it's the elephant in the room, it can only be discussed positively, anything else is heresy.
Agreed.This kind of mindset is honestly a throw back to the Soviet Union, where any societal issues that can be used against the ideology of the state, must be suppressed and never spoken of. Our masters have clearly learned nothing from the past, as that kind of mindset brought down the Soviet Union.
Except similar to the Soviet Union hasn't happened here before. Oh, sure, a political party loses power for a few years, but they've never been put up against a wall, and held accountable for their decisions.
Irish politics is swimming in decades long awareness that there is no accountability for the vast majority of politicians. They've learned that Irish people are very quick to forget, or ignore the mistakes of the past. The Banking crash reinforced that knowledge, since there was genuine rage in the country, and nothing came from it. The politicians played their usual 'smoke n mirrors' and got on with the same behavior as before.
The mindset is connected to how Irish governments have always operated in Ireland, whether it was the 50s, the 90s, or now. Censorship of ideas by controlling the media, while releasing feel good statements assuming the participation of the electorate. Replacing Catholic guilt with claims of racism or bigotry.. It's just another way to shutdown discussion. We must be selfless and help others less fortunate than ourselves.. all the while ignoring the Irish who need adequate help.. except as a stick to beat the opposition/govt with as a political action, but never connected in any way with the costs of immigration.
TBH I see little difference between past Irish governments and the last few.. Oh, they've shifted techniques, but it's still very much a nanny state, where the electorate are treated like retarded children.0 -
There's nothing inherently wrong with immigration. As long as it contributes to Irish society. Which in the main, it does.
Okay. Then it should be easy for you to prove it. And skip the skilled migrants. Let's deal with those who aren't highly skilled/educated, of which a sizable portion of migrants represent.0 -
Deleted User wrote: »Okay. Then it should be easy for you to prove it. And skip the skilled migrants. Let's deal with those who aren't highly skilled/educated, of which a sizable portion of migrants represent.
Prove what? That they can fit into Irish society/culture? Look around you, it does happen. I'm sure you know plenty that do. Most immigrants work and contribute.
Or is it that they can't learn a skill here? Can't hold down a job? Can't make themselves useful to society despite their lack of skills/education? Give them a shot.
And if they don't contribute, or are unwilling to contribute to Irish society, then they should be sent home.0 -
There was a very interesting discussion on here not too long ago about the perception of SF , not sure which thread though but it was very interesting.
Posters argued there is still a large amount of voters, mostly older who still view SF as the party for the working class with a Ireland/ Irish first focus. I see it with my own family, uncles who would have been supporters of SF in the North and the hunger strikers etc and view SF as the party of nationalist Irish people. As you say though they are much more of an open borders, social hot topic of the day party now.
Yeah this is it. If people were wide to Sinn Fein and what they actually stand for, the likes of Dessie Ellis and Aengus Ó Snodaigh wouldn't have a chance In hell of being elected in their constituencies.0 -
But their diehard supporters still believe thats a cloak to get into power.There was a very interesting discussion on here not too long ago about the perception of SF , not sure which thread though but it was very interesting.
Posters argued there is still a large amount of voters, mostly older who still view SF as the party for the working class with a Ireland/ Irish first focus. I see it with my own family, uncles who would have been supporters of SF in the North and the hunger strikers etc and view SF as the party of nationalist Irish people. As you say though they are much more of an open borders, social hot topic of the day party now.
Have a chat with any villages barstool racist and theyre either still a SF supporter or only recently have moved to the NP.
SFs end goal is and has always been a united 32 county catholic ethnostate for the irish. Theyre the least ethnically diverse party in the land because everyone knows given half a chance they’d kick out the brits, then move right on to the minorities.
People often joke about politicians making gaffes that are reminiscent of 1950s good ol catholic Ireland, talk to any older shinner and thats literally the dream they strive to return to.0 -
Prove what? That they can fit into Irish society/culture? Look around you, it does happen. I'm sure you know plenty that do. Most immigrants work and contribute.
Or is it that they can't learn a skill here? Can't hold down a job? Can't make themselves useful to society despite their lack of skills/education? Give them a shot.
And if they don't contribute, or are unwilling to contribute to Irish society, then they should be sent home.randd1 wrote:There's nothing inherently wrong with immigration. As long as it contributes to Irish society. Which in the main, it does.
So, answer my request. Not sidestep.
Oh, and if you consider my past posts, I'm not against immigration. However, you assigned a blanket suggestion that immigration does contribute positively to society, and I'd like to see you prove that the average migrant (not the highly skilled labor) are a net boon to Ireland. Simple enough.0 -
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Ireland is one of only 4 countries in Europe (not just the EU) without any nationalist/right/far right party representation in government buildings.
Members of parliament, government, opposition etc
We do have a handful of far left representatives though. Very poor balance
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_active_nationalist_parties_in_Europe0
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