What are your views on Multiculturalism in Ireland? - Threadbanned User List in OP

TomTomTim

TomTomTim wrote: »

I don't think anyone here has ever even argued against skilled immigration, most are for it. So we're once again arguing against a position that none of us hold.

I'm pretty sure that RobbieTheRobber raised this point before, and we all chipped in to discuss it.

I suspect he's just twisting tails. It's not as if this hasn't been covered many times already.

Eric Cartman

Deleted User wrote: »

I'm pretty sure that RobbieTheRobber raised this point before, and we all chipped in to discuss it.

I suspect he's just twisting tails. It's not as if this hasn't been covered many times already.

it feels like we're going round in circles , the question 'what are the benefits to us of unskilled / non EU migration' still have not been answered. A glib remark or two about diversity of takeaways seems to be all that can be mustered. If we banned the talk about doctors/engineers who have always been welcome and the talk of food, the positive side of this argument is basically gone.

Strumms

Eric Cartman wrote: »

it feels like we're going round in circles , the question 'what are the benefits to us of unskilled / non EU migration' still have not been answered. A glib remark or two about diversity of takeaways seems to be all that can be mustered. If we banned the talk about doctors/engineers who have always been welcome and the talk of food, the positive side of this argument is basically gone.

Unskilled is basically meaning they are coming to avail of opportunities, financial, security, education, quality of life, without the ability or interest or intent to pay back or add a tangible contribution to life here..

Strumms

Strumms wrote: »

Unskilled is basically meaning they are coming to avail of opportunities, financial, security, education, quality of life, without the ability or interest or intent to pay back or add a tangible contribution to life here..

I dunno. I keep coming back to this because, well, I'm a teacher. I've taught privately and through State universities, and have done a fair bit of corporate training too.

My beef with unskilled labor comes down to two simple points. Employment and education.

For employment, we need to have available placements to provide for these unskilled migrants, with that employment providing a reasonable standard of living.. so that they can avail of training opportunities to upskill them to be able to do better, and higher paid work... but unskilled labor tends to be labor/time intensive, so it's hard for them to avail of educational opportunities, due to the modern nature of Ireland's economy, they would need to obtain a relatively high standard (compared to their past experience), while also working and paying their costs.

Then, there's the problem with education.. Ireland's formal education is pretty decent but it's not swimming in resources, and extra space available. Most Universities are up to their eyes in debt (of some sort) for expansion of their facilities, and the revenue for students has generally dropped, especially with lost revenue from the profitable foreign student market (due to covid, and other considerations). I could go on, but there's little point.

It comes back to these two points for me, with regards to unskilled labor. How do we educate them with the resources we have available (resources which were made available while Ireland's economy was doing quite well....), considering there are serious limitations on our ability to upskill our own unemployed, or even to provide profitable educational qualifications for graduates.. Too many educational services in Ireland are outdated, or aimed solely at providing a piece of paper, than providing marketable skills.

The area of multiculturalism, immigration, etc.. it all comes back to the practicalities for me. If the money tree existed, and we had unlimited resources, then, I'd be more favorable towards most kinds of immigration.. but Ireland isn't in such a position. No valuable natural resources. None. A small country with a relatively low population. An economy built around technology, and as such, decent formal education. And since we're part of the EU (and Ireland has always been a Nanny State), everything is regulated.

It's the lack of consideration for the practicalities that bothers me. Where do we find employment for all these migrants? How do we afford to provide State supports to those who cannot make enough money to live? How do we improve our educational service with less resources available, while also dealing with increased demand (and new problems considering language difficulties, and other issues)... ?

And on, and on.. and on. I could list dozens on dozens of likely issues here, which I have seen no sign of people wanting to address, and resolve.

Nah. It'll be grand. It'll sort itself out.. Ireland's a magical place.

ExMachina1000

ExMachina1000 wrote: »

Of course that's what I mean. What did you think I was referring to? Diversity of opinion was it?

Its too far away from the m1. It wouldn't suit. Plus the traffic is very slow

I also said I didn't know if it causes any problems because I don't live there. You left that bit out.

Do you think Irish people are all a pasty shade of white?
Why would having people with different colour skin cause problems in lucan?

Esho

Strumms wrote: »

I agree, but many people just want an open door free for all for anybody not just having quite such a good time of it in their homeland...

Of course many of these people are projecting these ideas with the simple goal of attempting to drive down labour costs and denying people here the ability to earn a fair wage in respect of their qualifications, experience and skillsets...

More people prepared to work for less ? We have to match or struggle getting hired..

Gotta resist that shît of being sold down the river.

Multiculturalism suits the whole globalisation agenda when it comes to skilled migration.
An Indian pal of mine is on really bad money for an IT professional, no Irish person would do his job for that money.

We've already been sold down the river-.

stefanovich

Esho wrote: »

Multiculturalism suits the whole globalisation agenda when it comes to skilled migration.
An Indian pal of mine is on really bad money for an IT professional, no Irish person would do his job for that money.

We've already been sold down the river-.

https://www.independent.ie/business/jobs/not-enough-migrants-arriving-to-keep-pay-down-central-bank-38356212.html

Central Bank telling it like it is.

THE number of people willing to move here to work is not going to hit levels seen during the last boom and will not keep wages down, economists at the Central Bank are forecasting.

Esho

Esho wrote: »

Multiculturalism suits the whole globalisation agenda when it comes to skilled migration.
An Indian pal of mine is on really bad money for an IT professional, no Irish person would do his job for that money.

We've already been sold down the river-.

Well, we'll be screwed another way too.

As RobbieTheRobber pointed out, that a significant percentage of our medical personnel are foreign born.. but when I searched for details, I found article upon article talking about why they're leaving Ireland. Favoritism for Irish graduates being one, but another being that they can get better benefits and promotion opportunities, in other countries.

We're going to see more and more of this as time goes by. Ireland as a small nation has limited scope for career advancement when it comes to the "experts" and highly skilled. They're going to move elsewhere for better salaries and career opportunities... but not just that, they'll move elsewhere when they find Ireland has evolved socially into something they don't like anymore.

The funny thing is that twenty years ago, most migrants I know would have spoken in amazingly great tones about Ireland. Sure, they had some laughing type comments about the lack of this or that, but Ireland was considered a welcoming society, and great fun to live in. I don't hear much of that anymore. Instead, it's remarks about how much of Nanny State we've become, that Irish people are more suspicious, and less welcoming, that outside of Dublin/Cork/Galway, there's not much fun to be had, since the bar scene has essentially died across the country. Even the perception of Ireland as being a relatively safe place, is disappearing.. being replaced with talk about gangs, shootings, and 'racial' friction. (The racial friction being more to do with what's going on online, but expats tend to be hooked directly into their social media accounts)

V8 Interceptor

Good boy. Do you want a Blue Peter Badge?

RobbieTheRobber

Strumms wrote: »

I agree, but many people just want an open door free for all for anybody not just having quite such a good time of it in their homeland...

Of course many of these people are projecting these ideas with the simple goal of attempting to drive down labour costs and denying people here the ability to earn a fair wage in respect of their qualifications, experience and skillsets...

More people prepared to work for less ? We have to match or struggle getting hired..

Gotta resist that shît of being sold down the river.

Who is advocating for an open door free for all in this thread?

V8 Interceptor

RobbieTheRobber wrote: »

Who is advocating for an open door free for all in this thread?

It seems like most of them.

RobbieTheRobber

Deleted User wrote: »

I dunno. I keep coming back to this because, well, I'm a teacher. I've taught privately and through State universities, and have done a fair bit of corporate training too.

My beef with unskilled labor comes down to two simple points. Employment and education.

For employment, we need to have available placements to provide for these unskilled migrants, with that employment providing a reasonable standard of living.. so that they can avail of training opportunities to upskill them to be able to do better, and higher paid work... but unskilled labor tends to be labor/time intensive, so it's hard for them to avail of educational opportunities, due to the modern nature of Ireland's economy, they would need to obtain a relatively high standard (compared to their past experience), while also working and paying their costs.

Then, there's the problem with education.. Ireland's formal education is pretty decent but it's not swimming in resources, and extra space available. Most Universities are up to their eyes in debt (of some sort) for expansion of their facilities, and the revenue for students has generally dropped, especially with lost revenue from the profitable foreign student market (due to covid, and other considerations). I could go on, but there's little point.

It comes back to these two points for me, with regards to unskilled labor. How do we educate them with the resources we have available (resources which were made available while Ireland's economy was doing quite well....), considering there are serious limitations on our ability to upskill our own unemployed, or even to provide profitable educational qualifications for graduates.. Too many educational services in Ireland are outdated, or aimed solely at providing a piece of paper, than providing marketable skills.

The area of multiculturalism, immigration, etc.. it all comes back to the practicalities for me. If the money tree existed, and we had unlimited resources, then, I'd be more favorable towards most kinds of immigration.. but Ireland isn't in such a position. No valuable natural resources. None. A small country with a relatively low population. An economy built around technology, and as such, decent formal education. And since we're part of the EU (and Ireland has always been a Nanny State), everything is regulated.

It's the lack of consideration for the practicalities that bothers me. Where do we find employment for all these migrants? How do we afford to provide State supports to those who cannot make enough money to live? How do we improve our educational service with less resources available, while also dealing with increased demand (and new problems considering language difficulties, and other issues)... ?

And on, and on.. and on. I could list dozens on dozens of likely issues here, which I have seen no sign of people wanting to address, and resolve.

Nah. It'll be grand. It'll sort itself out.. Ireland's a magical place.

Man living in China argues about immigrants and calls Ireland a nanny state

Turquoise Hexagon Sun

I don't think multiculturalism is all that, as promoted by people and institutions that promote it. I might have said it was great when I was more of an idealistic teenager or 20-something-year-old.

The reality is most cultures of people will stick to their own due to their historical past. We gravitate to our own abroad because we've lived shared experiences. Same of that of immigrants.

Multiculturalism is more of an idealistic thing. Yeah, some cultures and co-exist and thrive but so long as they aren't radically different. For example, Pakistani Muslim or Afghani Muslim family, are hardly going to be socializing with Jim & Mary at Sunday Mass or down the local boozer getting into friendly banter. You might meet someone from that Muslim family in a job and get along and they might open your eyes to some things you didn't know about but ultimately you'll be back to your own families and friends.

But what about the 2nd and 3rd generations? Well, maybe their kids will assimilate but perhaps the parents won't like the non-religious lifestyle of the family their kids choose to pal within the school. The little Muslim kid will still gravitate towards people he will have shared experiences with like other Muslims etc. Also, there's a good chance the parents won't want their children marrying locals, but only other Muslims. This keeps a perpetual non-assimilation rife. We just have to look at the UK as that country is more advanced when it comes to multiculturalism and it's been a total failure there. We just got ask ourselves; do we want to inherit and force the same issues here in Ireland?

I use Islam as stark contrast as we've spent a long time shaking off religious conservatism in this country. And a lot more religious conservatism doesn't feel like a progression, IMO

I'd certainly have more in common with someone farther away from Brazil or Venezuela than I would in Muslim middle-east.

Basically, what I'm saying is there are different types of cultures more compatible with Irish culture where multiculturalism might flourish better.

I'm all for immigration but not mass immigration like we saw in Germany or Sweden. And, I'd much prefer people that jump right into the local culture like Brazilians, Polish, Spanish etc. I think the Polish (central Europeans) and Lithuanians and Eastern Europeans and Brazilians brought some culture with their stores, we got more selections of food and alcohol and things like that. They mixed well, had education and assimilated really well.

But other cultures can be diametrically opposite of our culture and it just won't work. I don't mean to be offensive to Muslims, either. I've met and worked with a few who were absolutely lovely people but were quite moderate and maybe the exception. I'm basically worried about large scale religious conservatism coming into the country. Small amounts is fine.

V8 Interceptor

Turquoise Hexagon Sun wrote: »

I'm all for immigration.

Why?

RobbieTheRobber

V8 Interceptor wrote: »

Why?

Do you have a problem with Irish emigrants in other countries?

Wibbs

RobbieTheRobber wrote: »

Man living in China argues about immigrants and calls Ireland a nanny state

Man who through the proper channels legally emigrated to China with skills that country judged it needed and supports himself without recourse to the state and taxpayers(of which he is one) of China, and the moment the same China judges he is not on the positive side of their nation's balance sheet will be asked to leave. I know this is a variation of the old storied nonsense of "well the Irish were immigrants too" trope, but the differences are perfectly clear.

Wibbs

RobbieTheRobber wrote: »

Do you have a problem with Irish emigrants in other countries?

And again with the same dubious comparison that falls on its arse under the most cursory of investigations. Oh and for the record; I do indeed have a problem with any Irish who are illegals in other nations like the US.

RobbieTheRobber

Wibbs wrote: »

And again with the same dubious comparison that falls on its arse under the most cursory of investigations. Oh and for the record; I do indeed have a problem with any Irish who are illegals in other nations like the US.

What dubious comparison?

The word immigrant doesn't of itself identify legal or illegal status immigrants the poster I replied to has clearly an issue with immigration to Ireland and has not stated that is only a problem with illegal migration. So it is a valid question!


:rolleyes:

Wibbs

Wibbs wrote: »

And again with the same dubious comparison that falls on its arse under the most cursory of investigations. Oh and for the record; I do indeed have a problem with any Irish who are illegals in other nations like the US.

I only know one person who went to America as an illegal, they knew if they were caught they would be deported as it should be. I never heard anyone saying that they should be allowed to stay if caught. The attitude from everyone was if your caught, tough sh*t, deal with the consequences

Politicians and NGO's using illegal irish in America to justify illegal immigration in Ireland is just an attempt to force through amnesty here, which unfortunately is working.

V8 Interceptor

RobbieTheRobber wrote: »

Do you have a problem with Irish emigrants in other countries?

That's for other Countries to decide.

How about my question?

RobbieTheRobber

Wibbs wrote: »

Man who through the proper channels legally emigrated to China with skills that country judged it needed and supports himself without recourse to the state and taxpayers(of which he is one) of China, and the moment the same China judges he is not on the positive side of their nation's balance sheet will be asked to leave. I know this is a variation of the old storied nonsense of "well the Irish were immigrants too" trope, but the differences are perfectly clear.

Well I dont know that he has fulfilled all the legal obligations to be in China do I. For all I know he could well be in breach of local laws.

For example most foreigners in China use a VPN to access web services outside of China and without a license this would be illegal. Now we wouldn't want to support immigrants committing illegal activity would we.

As for decrying Ireland a Nanny state well then comparing it to the country he moved is valid.

Would you say Ireland is more or less a nanny state than China Wibbs?

RobbieTheRobber

V8 Interceptor wrote: »

That's for other Countries to decide.

How about my question?

How about you try mine again and this time offer your opinion?

RobbieTheRobber

Deleted User wrote: »

I only know one person who went to America as an illegal, they knew if they were caught they would be deported as it should be. I never heard anyone saying that they should be allowed to stay if caught. The attitude from everyone was if your caught, tough sh*t, deal with the consequences

Politicians and NGO's using illegal irish in America to justify illegal immigration in Ireland is just an attempt to force through amnesty here, which unfortunately is working.

Most immigration to Ireland is of the legal kind though isn't it?

Wibbs

RobbieTheRobber wrote: »

What dubious comparison?

The word immigrant doesn't of itself identify legal or illegal status immigrants the poster I replied to has clearly an issue with immigration to Ireland and has not stated that is only a problem with illegal migration. So it is a valid question!


:rolleyes:

Roll your eyes all you wish, but it's the conflation - and well you know it - of illegal and legal migration in the debate around multicultural Europe. What percentage of non EU migrants over the last 20 years came here through direct legal means for employment or education? Is it the majority? It is not. Quite the percentage came and got residence here because of the birthright passport loophole, of which well over 90% of whom wouldn't be allowed in or to stay today after it was closed. What percentage of legal non EU migrants are in receipt of social welfare and housing? Is it the majority? It is not.

Well I dont know that he has fulfilled all the legal obligations to be in China do I. For all I know he could well be in breach of local laws.

For example most foreigners in China use a VPN to access web services outside of China and without a license this would be illegal. Now we wouldn't want to support immigrants committing illegal activity would we.

Accessing a VPN(as most locals do too) Versus a lifetime of social welfare and increasing social problems. Yeah totally comparable. Loving the "well maybe he's not legal?" angle. :pac: The difference between here and places like China(and other nations in Asia) is he'd get short shrift as an illegal compared to here. He certainly wouldn't get social welfare or be in line with and even ahead of the locals for social housing. Welcome to the bottom of the barrel of your arguments. Scrapers will be provided.

As for decrying Ireland a Nanny state well then comparing it to the country he moved is valid.

Would you say Ireland is more or less a nanny state than China Wibbs?

China is far more oppressive and clearly far more into surveillance of their peoples. On the other hand you have a ciggie in a pub so... But that's another argument.

RobbieTheRobber

Wibbs wrote: »

Roll your eyes all you wish, but it's the conflation - and well you know it - of illegal and legal migration in the debate around multicultural Europe. What percentage of non EU migrants over the last 20 years came here through direct legal means for employment or education? Is it the majority? It is not. Quite the percentage came and got residence here because of the birthright passport loophole, of which well over 90% of whom wouldn't be allowed in or to stay today after it was closed. What percentage of legal non EU migrants are in receipt of social welfare and housing? Is it the majority? It is not.


Accessing a VPN(as most locals do too) Versus a lifetime of social welfare and increasing social problems. Yeah totally comparable. Loving the "well maybe he's not legal?" angle. :pac: The difference between here and places like China(and other nations in Asia) is he'd get short shrift as an illegal compared to here. He certainly wouldn't get social welfare or be in line with and even ahead of the locals for social housing. Welcome to the bottom of the barrel of your arguments. Scrapers will be provided.

China is far more oppressive and clearly far more into surveillance of their peoples. On the other hand you have a ciggie in a pub so... But that's another argument.

This illegal activity is ok.
But applying for welfare through a government agency well that's just the worst kind of thing in the world.
:D

So apart from sucking Cancer sticks in a pub you are saying China is more of a nanny state than Ireland right?

V8 Interceptor

RobbieTheRobber wrote: »

How about you try mine again and this time offer your opinion?

I did. Its none of my business what other Countries do. Good luck to them.

How more clear can I be?

RobbieTheRobber

RobbieTheRobber wrote: »

Do you have a problem with Irish emigrants in other countries?

V8 Interceptor wrote: »

I did. Its none of my business what other Countries do. Good luck to them.

How more clear can I be?

So you cant form an opinion on it because its another country?

Is it only illegal migration to Ireland you have a problem with, or do you consider most migration to Ireland to be abhorrent?

Wibbs

RobbieTheRobber wrote: »

This illegal activity is ok.
But applying for welfare through a government agency well that's just the worst kind of thing in the world.
:D

If you can't divine the difference between an educated and employed taxpaying legal migrant accessing a VPN and an undereducated and unemployed migrant who's never made a contribution to the host nation looking for a handout from the nation they recently entered illegally then I really don't know how to explain things to you. Though of course you well know the difference, but your argument hasn't a leg to stand on so these are all just hail mary deflections in an attempt to paper over those obvious cracks.

RobbieTheRobber

Wibbs wrote: »

If you can't divine the difference between an educated and employed taxpaying legal migrant accessing a VPN and an undereducated and unemployed migrant who's never made a contribution to the host nation looking for a handout from the nation they recently entered illegally then I really don't know how to explain things to you. Though of course you well know the difference, but your argument hasn't a leg to stand on so these are all just hail mary deflections in an attempt to paper over those obvious cracks.

Obey the laws of the country your a guest in, isn't that one of the mantras of this thread!

jmreire

RobbieTheRobber wrote: »

So you cant form an opinion on it because its another country?

Is it only illegal migration to Ireland you have a problem with, or do you consider most migration to Ireland to be abhorrent?

Robbie, quick question for you, have you actually ever lived in any of these Country's we are getting the asylum seekers and immigrants from? Middle East, Africa etc? Or even China, as you seem to know a lot about the legalistic status of VPNs and immigrants etc.