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What are your views on Multiculturalism in Ireland? - Threadbanned User List in OP

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    #7412
    Fandymo
    Registered Users Posts: 4,177 ✭✭✭Fandymo


    Deleted User wrote: »
    I dunno.. that might have been the case a few years ago, but I suspect it's another boogeyman answer to excuse the lack of resistance. Whose career has been ruined for objecting?

    The thing is that the few people I have seen object to immigration or multiculturalism have done so in a rather idiotic fashion, easily allowing themselves to be painted as racists. I haven't heard anyone using the statistics and facts of the situation to support their beliefs... instead, they've made somewhat emotional vague statements.

    Nope. I don't think there's any real evidence that someone would lose their jobs or be ostracized for objecting to immigration, IF, they do so in a reasonable manner. Instead, the claim that there would be blowback is enough to prevent people from committing to doing anything outside of social media.

    Look at the grief Peter Casey got.


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    #7413
    TomTomTim
    Registered Users Posts: 2,841 ✭✭✭TomTomTim


    Deleted User wrote: »
    I dunno.. that might have been the case a few years ago, but I suspect it's another boogeyman answer to excuse the lack of resistance. Whose career has been ruined for objecting?

    The thing is that the few people I have seen object to immigration or multiculturalism have done so in a rather idiotic fashion, easily allowing themselves to be painted as racists. I haven't heard anyone using the statistics and facts of the situation to support their beliefs... instead, they've made somewhat emotional vague statements.

    Nope. I don't think there's any real evidence that someone would lose their jobs or be ostracized for objecting to immigration, IF, they do so in a reasonable manner. Instead, the claim that there would be blowback is enough to prevent people from committing to doing anything outside of social media.

    While there may not be evidence, in this country at least, I'd put all my wealth on the fact that if you tested this theory, with say 100 people working in different sectors, I'd say at least 60% would lose their jobs. The fact that you even mention "a reasonable manner" is interesting. It's like you've ignored the last 5 years. There is no reasonable criticism to the activist whose trying to get you fired. You could be a literal Nazi, or you could be you, someone with moderate views on the matter. It would matter little to them, as they don't care for distinctions. They'd tell your employer that you were a far right racist regardless of where you are on the scale. You should be acutely aware of that by now.

    “The man who lies to himself can be more easily offended than anyone else. You know it is sometimes very pleasant to take offense, isn't it? A man may know that nobody has insulted him, but that he has invented the insult for himself, has lied and exaggerated to make it picturesque, has caught at a word and made a mountain out of a molehill--he knows that himself, yet he will be the first to take offense, and will revel in his resentment till he feels great pleasure in it.”- ― Fyodor Dostoevsky, The Brothers Karamazov




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    #7414
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    Fandymo wrote: »
    Look at the grief Peter Casey got.

    What? He got slated by Pavee point... which was to be expected...

    Nobody can enter a public forum (especially in Irish politics) and make such statements without having some kind of group or organisation behind them, willing to campaign and promote the facts of the matter. As I said.. a commitment to expressing that objection.
    TomTomTim wrote:
    While there may not be evidence, in this country at least, I'd put all my wealth on the fact that if you tested this theory, with say 100 people working in different sectors, I'd say at least 60% would lose their jobs. The fact that you even mention "a reasonable manner" is interesting. It's like you've ignored the last 5 years. There is no reasonable criticism to the activist whose trying to get you fired. You could be a literal Nazi, or you could be you, someone with moderate views on the matter. It would matter little to them, as they don't care for distinctions. They'd tell your employer that you were a far right racist regardless of where you are on the scale. You should be acutely aware of that by now.

    Oh, I'm very aware of the groups that are involved in social media, and cancel culture of anyone who seeks to object... but at the same time, I've seen little indication of anyone coming forward and actually committing themselves (without apologising within a few days) to promoting such viewpoints, apart from those who are connected to questionable agendas such as conservative Christianity, anti-abortion, etc, whereby they're open to be assassinated from multiple angles.

    As for a reasonable manner... again, it comes down to relying on facts and statistics, as opposed to making a simple statement and waiting for the fallout to happen. A solid logical argument supported by relevant information, with a plan towards combating those who will inevitably attack you in response.


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    #7415
    ThunbergsAreGo
    Registered Users Posts: 10,399 ✭✭✭✭ThunbergsAreGo


    Fandymo wrote: »
    Look at the grief Peter Casey got.

    And Noel Grealish, and Verona Murphy


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    #7416
    Kivaro
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,105 ✭✭✭Kivaro


    ThunbergsAreGo wrote: »
    And Noel Grealish, and Verona Murphy

    Both re-elected without a bother though. Their views resonated with their voters. And Fine Gael are very eager to get Verona back in the party.


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    #7417
    ThunbergsAreGo
    Registered Users Posts: 10,399 ✭✭✭✭ThunbergsAreGo


    Kivaro wrote: »
    Both re-elected without a bother though. Their views resonated with their voters. And Fine Gael are very eager to get Verona back in the party.

    That is true, castigated in the media /on Twitter very different to real life.


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    #7418
    Wibbs
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,159 Mod ✭✭✭✭Wibbs


    RobbieTheRobber wrote: »
    The original vote that enacted it was passed by a bigger margin wasn't it?
    The Good Friday referendum was passed by over 90%, the largest margin of any referendum. The 2004 came second to that.
    But I am not suggesting that was the Irish electorates intention for the original vote but surely Wibbs you are not suggesting you know the minds of all the electorate when they cast their vote in 2004 or indeed in 1998.
    This is more than a bit disingenuous and well you know it. The GFA was passed because of decades of the Troubles and people were sick of it. Non EU immigration was a tiny trickle at the time and not on people's radars to near the degree it became. And it seems Labour and a few others other politicos and NGOs were pretty sure about the intention of the 2004 vote because they were bleating on in the media about it being "racist" in the lead up to it. And yet the Irish people resoundingly chose to close that loophole.
    But it doesn't have to be put to the People wibbs, by a clear democratic vote in 2004 with resounding support the people of Ireland choose to give the Government of the day the power to amend who is entitled to citizenship.
    Because that choice not to wasn't put to the Irish people. Do you really think if it were the result would have been any different? Do you think if the SSM or the Repeal of the 8th votes(which had smaller majorities than the 04 result) would have had different outcomes if there was a section to give the same powers to a future government to change them? Hardly, people vote for the legislation that's in front of them and the gist of that legislation. If they had such legislation in those two referendums do you think Labour and the rest would be as keen to go sideways through law to row back on them? Like hell they would. They'd most certainly call for another vote on it.

    On that front and again if Labour and these others are so sure that this change is desired by the Irish people, then why are they not pushing for a public vote by the same Irish people? Because they know damned well it would be rejected again. Never mind that it's a change that will fundementally change this nation and has already started. The largest demographic shift in the history of this state and yet we're not given a choice in it?

    .

    Rejoice in the awareness of feeling stupid, for that’s how you end up learning new things. If you’re not aware you’re stupid, you probably are.



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    #7419
    Arthur Daley
    Registered Users Posts: 4,464 ✭✭✭Arthur Daley


    A member of the loony left confronts a politician:



    Call the Kopsssssss:cool:


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    #7420
    humberklog
    Moderators, Music Moderators Posts: 10,528 Mod ✭✭✭✭humberklog


    Fandymo wrote: »
    Look at the grief Peter Casey got.

    He got grief but entered the race as a no-hoper but came in 2nd.

    Fair enough- it was half the votes of Higgins but Casey was nearly 4x the 3rd placed runner.


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    #7421
    clytemnestra
    Registered Users Posts: 124 ✭✭clytemnestra


    Wibbs wrote: »
    The Good Friday referendum was passed by over 90%, the largest margin of any referendum. The 2004 came second to that.

    This is more than a bit disingenuous and well you know it. The GFA was passed because of decades of the Troubles and people were sick of it. Non EU immigration was a tiny trickle at the time and not on people's radars to near the degree it became. And it seems Labour and a few others other politicos and NGOs were pretty sure about the intention of the 2004 vote because they were bleating on in the media about it being "racist" in the lead up to it. And yet the Irish people resoundingly chose to close that loophole.

    Because that choice not to wasn't put to the Irish people. Do you really think if it were the result would have been any different? Do you think if the SSM or the Repeal of the 8th votes(which had smaller majorities than the 04 result) would have had different outcomes if there was a section to give the same powers to a future government to change them? Hardly, people vote for the legislation that's in front of them and the gist of that legislation. If they had such legislation in those two referendums do you think Labour and the rest would be as keen to go sideways through law to row back on them? Like hell they would. They'd most certainly call for another vote on it.

    On that front and again if Labour and these others are so sure that this change is desired by the Irish people, then why are they not pushing for a public vote by the same Irish people? Because they know damned well it would be rejected again. Never mind that it's a change that will fundementally change this nation and has already started. The largest demographic shift in the history of this state and yet we're not given a choice in it?

    .

    And the irony is that those three decades of bloodshed leading to the GFA had their roots in the last great demographic shift in the 17th century. Some of the most rabid open borders people I know will also vote for Sinn Fein and call British people "Tans" as a casual insult. The cognitive dissonance is weird.


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    #7422
    ek motor
    Registered Users Posts: 548 ✭✭✭ek motor


    clytemnestra wrote: »
    And the irony is that those three decades of bloodshed leading to the GFA had their roots in the last great demographic shift in the 17th century. Some of the most rabid open borders people I know will also vote for Sinn Fein and call British people "Tans" as a casual insult. The cognitive dissonance is weird.


    Its appears to be a derangement uniquely affecting sinn Fein voters


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    #7423
    ThunbergsAreGo
    Registered Users Posts: 10,399 ✭✭✭✭ThunbergsAreGo


    Beechwoodspark wrote: »
    Nkencho family were just on RTÉ news

    The father and daughter talked. They are saying they’ve no confidence in gsoc

    Almost spitting the words out in rage. Not helping their cause one bit.

    Came across so badly :/

    Why in the world are these on RTE?


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    #7424
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    ek motor wrote: »
    Its appears to be a derangement uniquely affecting sinn Fein voters

    Don't be too sure of that. There are quite a few people who would be FF supporters, with a more traditional view of FF representing Irish nationalism, along with a wide range of negative attitudes towards the English (All justified by history, of course).

    There's a lot of people in this country who just can't let go of the past (regardless of whether they, themselves, were directly affected by it, or not).


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    #7425
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    ThunbergsAreGo wrote: »
    Why in the world are these on RTE?

    Modern media adores supporting 'victims'.. and will go out of their way to promote the view that these people were victims somehow. It's the pinnacle of virtue signalling for the media.. It's why BLM has received so much coverage for the positives associated, and extremely little for the negatives. Black people are victims. That's the message that needs to be trumpeted across the world.


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    #7426
    ThunbergsAreGo
    Registered Users Posts: 10,399 ✭✭✭✭ThunbergsAreGo


    [Deleted User] wrote: »
    Modern media adores supporting 'victims'.. and will go out of their way to promote the view that these people were victims somehow. It's the pinnacle of virtue signalling for the media.. It's why BLM has received so much coverage for the positives associated, and extremely little for the negatives. Black people are victims. That's the message that needs to be trumpeted across the world.

    Oh I totally get this. It just further highlights how deranged and biased our state broadcaster.

    Worry about "far right" misinformation one minute, allow "appropriate" misinformation to spread the next. Important who says it, not what's said.


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    #7427
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    ThunbergsAreGo wrote: »
    Oh I totally get this. It just further highlights how deranged and biased our state broadcaster.

    Worry about "far right" misinformation one minute, allow "appropriate" misinformation to spread the next. Important who says it, not what's said.

    Content, context, and facts are far less important than they used to be. In university for many students, they'll study for a particular exam, memorise the needed material, and once the exam is finished, the information memorised is discarded. Which is continued after university when it comes to processing general information.,.

    The problem is that with the rise of social media, and decades of media exposure (especially the more american style of news reporting) sensationalism is the main aim of the media. Emotional content, because the population has been conditioned to respond to it. People forget the facts, details, etc very quickly after a report is heard... but they retain an emotional impression on the story.. which is why you'll see people with strong views on issues, but often very inaccurate information, because they're relying on dubious connections for their memory.

    Like, my parents are astounding with regards to what they remember from 40, 50, 60 years ago.. and I struggle with things from 20 years ago. The shift in education, and media exposure, has a lot to answer for, and it's setting us all for a world of hurt later down the line.


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    #7428
    Marcos
    Registered Users Posts: 500 ✭✭✭Marcos


    Deleted User wrote: »
    Modern media adores supporting 'victims'.. and will go out of their way to promote the view that these people were victims somehow. It's the pinnacle of virtue signalling for the media.. It's why BLM has received so much coverage for the positives associated, and extremely little for the negatives. Black people are victims. That's the message that needs to be trumpeted across the world.

    The media adore supporting certain victims.

    When most of us say "social justice" we mean equality under the law opposition to prejudice, discrimination and equal opportunities for all. When Social Justice Activists say "social justice" they mean an emphasis on group identity over the rights of the individual, a rejection of social liberalism, and the assumption that unequal outcomes are always evidence of structural inequalities.

    Andrew Doyle, The New Puritans.



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    #7429
    Beechwoodspark
    Registered Users Posts: 15,632 ✭✭✭✭Beechwoodspark


    Piece on RTÉ radio at moment

    My word, the nkencho neighbours sound very annoyed with the nkenchos

    You’d have to wonder why

    The nkencho sister seemed to be implying that they were still resident in the original house and complaining about it.

    Fair play to the RTÉ reporter, he pulled her up on that straight away.

    She sounded rattled - a bit surprised that her story was challenged?


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    #7430
    Will_I_Regret
    Registered Users Posts: 75 ✭✭Will_I_Regret


    Beechwoodspark wrote: »
    Piece on RTÉ radio at moment

    My word, the nkencho neighbours sound very annoyed with the nkenchos

    You’d have to wonder why

    The nkencho sister seemed to be implying that they were still resident in the original house and complaining about it.

    Fair play to the RTÉ reporter, he pulled her up on that straight away.

    She sounded rattled - a bit surprised that her story was challenged?

    Any clips of that?


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    #7431
    Strumms
    Registered Users Posts: 25,415 ✭✭✭✭Strumms


    Deleted User wrote: »
    Modern media adores supporting 'victims'.. and will go out of their way to promote the view that these people were victims somehow. It's the pinnacle of virtue signalling for the media.. It's why BLM has received so much coverage for the positives associated, and extremely little for the negatives. Black people are victims. That's the message that needs to be trumpeted across the world.

    Also, we are racist if we we don’t want to spend xxx millions housing them and financing their lives..

    If they can work here, if they are allowed to, they are saturating the market, driving wages down because they generally work for less..plus it’s then an employers market..

    Politics has always been in bed with business ahead of the ordinary citizens... so many of them come from a business background... sill have business interests.. are landlords, own businesses that rely on low skilled and low paid labour... they are doing right by themselves and their mates.


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    #7432
    Mike Murdock
    Registered Users Posts: 921 ✭✭✭Mike Murdock


    Arthur Daley wrote: »
    A member of the loony left confronts a politician:



    Call the Kopsssssss:cool:

    She's right to called out that scumbag Ahern.


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    #7433
    Beechwoodspark
    Registered Users Posts: 15,632 ✭✭✭✭Beechwoodspark


    Will_I_Regret wrote: »
    Any clips of that?

    Presume it’ll be made available later on the site


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    #7434
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    clytemnestra wrote: »
    And the irony is that those three decades of bloodshed leading to the GFA had their roots in the last great demographic shift in the 17th century. Some of the most rabid open borders people I know will also vote for Sinn Fein and call British people "Tans" as a casual insult. The cognitive dissonance is weird.

    Give me the Brits any day over immigration from the third world.


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    #7435
    Arthur Daley
    Registered Users Posts: 4,464 ✭✭✭Arthur Daley


    Mike Murdock wrote: »
    She's right to called out that scumbag Ahern.

    Indeed, it's a sign of a healthy democratic process.


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    #7436
    Overheal
    Registered Users Posts: 83,033 ✭✭✭✭Overheal


    [Deleted User] wrote: »
    Give me the Brits any day over immigration from the third world.

    Wasn’t most of the third world colonized by the Brits?


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    #7437
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    Overheal wrote: »
    Wasn’t most of the third world colonized by the Brits?

    Yes it was. Don't care in the 21st Century.


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    #7438
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    Deleted User wrote: »
    Give me the Brits any day over immigration from the third world.

    Ahh.. yeah.. kinda. I dunno. There's a lot of British people who are absolute scummers (Chavs and similar cultural groups). It amazing the amount of dodgy assed groups to come out of the UK over the last four decades.

    I'd favor continental Europeans and Eastern Europeans (not the Balkans region) over either the Brits or those from the Third world.

    When Irish and British culture was more mainstream/traditional and similar to each other, I would have said that the Irish/Brits mix the best here.. but the UK has shifted considerably away from it's traditional attitudes/behaviors.


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    #7439
    Kermit.de.frog
    Registered Users Posts: 23,716 ✭✭✭✭Kermit.de.frog


    Beechwoodspark wrote: »
    Piece on RTÉ radio at moment

    My word, the nkencho neighbours sound very annoyed with the nkenchos

    You’d have to wonder why

    The nkencho sister seemed to be implying that they were still resident in the original house and complaining about it.

    Fair play to the RTÉ reporter, he pulled her up on that straight away.

    She sounded rattled - a bit surprised that her story was challenged?

    So they just upped sticks and moved to a new house according to that. Get it? Just like that.

    The incident happened, what? , 4 months a go?

    I wonder how many workers could do that so quickly and spontaneously for their personal traumas.

    We have everything arse ways. Everything.


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    #7440
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    Deleted User wrote: »
    Ahh.. yeah.. kinda. I dunno. There's a lot of British people who are absolute scummers (Chavs and similar cultural groups). It amazing the amount of dodgy assed groups to come out of the UK over the last four decades.

    I'd favor continental Europeans and Eastern Europeans (not the Balkans region) over either the Brits or those from the Third world.

    When Irish and British culture was more mainstream/traditional and similar to each other, I would have said that the Irish/Brits mix the best here.. but the UK has shifted considerably away from it's traditional attitudes/behaviors.

    Why not the Balkans region out of curiosity?


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    #7441
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    Deleted User wrote: »
    Why not the Balkans region out of curiosity?

    From my experience with the nationalities spread throughout the region, the cultures are dodgy to the hilt. Maybe it was the Eastern influence, perhaps it was the addition of Islam to the mix, perhaps.. I honestly don't know... but while they're often very friendly, there's a... flexibility towards honesty and other values which tend to have greater importance in the west. The attitudes and behavior make me feel that they're closer to being M.Eastern than European.


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