What are your views on Multiculturalism in Ireland? - Threadbanned User List in OP

EddieN75

Annasopra wrote: »

It is a racist link from a racist website. A good few posters happy to accept it and discuss that.

I decided to fact check that new sources claim as I was sceptical myself. Here is a link to "the local " . A highly respected and distributed Swedish media news letter/paper

https://www.thelocal.se/20210408/swedish-government-pushes-ahead-with-new-migration-bill/

It is a factual story.
Here is a piece from the article

"After three years it would be possible to apply for a permanent residence permit, but this would only be granted if certain requirements are met, such as being able to support oneself and having sufficient Swedish language and civics skills. The latter requirement is new, and comes as Sweden is also planning tightened citizenship requirements"

It appears Sweden has changed direction.

You should have a quick read up on what Sweden offers in its social welfare package to all. No wonder they are swamped

Dyr

bubblypop wrote: »

I think the beauty of multiculturalism is the many differences there are in the world.
I would hate to be the type of person that judges all people because they are different to Irish/western white society.
The funny thing is, western white society varies widely in western white countries!
I would imagine it's tiring, having to judge people all the time based on where they are from.

Thats what I like about Europe, its already diverse and its cultures are succesful. With multicultural exceptions the Balkans and Northern Ireland.

If you enjoy diversity than multiculturalism is a bad idea. I don't want every country to be a carbon copy of every other country.

Cordell

Eric Cartman wrote: »

Its a site that takes editorial liberties, copies other journos work and has serious questions around competition winners absolutely... but I fail to see how its a ‘racist website’ let alone how that link is a ‘racist link’

It is the "it does not align with my views so it's racist" kind of racism of course.
Or the right wing and/or conservatives are by default racist. Of course except for conservative muslims, they are not racist.

clytemnestra

Bambi wrote: »

Thats what I like about Europe, its already diverse and its cultures are succesful. With multicultural exceptions the Balkans and Northern Ireland.

If you enjoy diversity than multiculturalism is a bad idea. I don't want every country to be a carbon copy of every other country.

That's just it. Europe is wonderfully diverse. You could travel round it for your whole life and never run out of different cultures to experience. Multiculturalism makes it horribly bland with the same mix of people everywhere. I've been to Sweden in the early 90s and more recently and their beautiful country is ruined.

[Deleted User]

[Deleted User] wrote: »

They will have availed themselves of a variety of State supports/welfare while here, because many departments won't exclude those without documentation, and on top of that, there's a range of services which are made available to everyone, regardless of whether they were taxpayers or not. The point being that they've already managed to twist the system to suit themselves

You have proof of this I expect?
I am not aware of any details of the 17,000 people, are you?

clytemnestra

clytemnestra wrote: »

I've been to Sweden in the early 90s and more recently and their beautiful country is ruined.

No it is not.
It's a lovely country

EddieN75

bubblypop wrote: »

No it is not.
It's a lovely country

You can get a state household allowance if the national allowance isn't enough for you to live on. Some people living in apartments in areas such as Rinkeby have been caught claiming that there are 10 - 30 people living in a two bed.
These are apartments that they would have received for free.

In its 2017, police stated that welfare fraud was prevalent in vulnerable areas, where benefits administered by Swedish Public Employment Service and the Swedish Social Insurance Agency were targeted.[15] Police had identified resident registry figures that had been manipulated: for instance, 2% of all apartments in Rinkeby had between 10 and 30 persons registered as residents, which led to an inflated number of people receiving welfare benefits."

"Rinkeby is noted for its high concentration of immigrants and people with immigrant ancestry. 89.1% of the suburb's population had a first- or second-generation immigrant background as of 2007"


So yes Sweden is a nice place but some people are coming to take advantage. A lesson for Ireland perhaps??

RobbieTheRobber

clytemnestra wrote: »

That's just it. Europe is wonderfully diverse. You could travel round it for your whole life and never run out of different cultures to experience. Multiculturalism makes it horribly bland with the same mix of people everywhere. I've been to Sweden in the early 90s and more recently and their beautiful country is ruined.

Surveys say Sweden is the third best country to live in 2020 and Sweden are consistently in the best places to live surveys but Clytemnestra of boards.ie says the country is ruined.

Hmmmmmmmmmmm who should I believe

mohawk

EddieN75 wrote: »

I decided to fact check that new sources claim as I was sceptical myself. Here is a link to "the local " . A highly respected and distributed Swedish media news letter/paper

https://www.thelocal.se/20210408/swedish-government-pushes-ahead-with-new-migration-bill/

It is a factual story.
Here is a piece from the article

"After three years it would be possible to apply for a permanent residence permit, but this would only be granted if certain requirements are met, such as being able to support oneself and having sufficient Swedish language and civics skills. The latter requirement is new, and comes as Sweden is also planning tightened citizenship requirements"

It appears Sweden has changed direction.

You should have a quick read up on what Sweden offers in its social welfare package to all. No wonder they are swamped

Why can’t we do similar here. Why have the powers that be decided we won’t have any of the problems that other countries have had. Why can’t we learn from the experiences of others.

RobbieTheRobber

EddieN75 wrote: »

I decided to fact check that new sources claim as I was sceptical myself. Here is a link to "the local " . A highly respected and distributed Swedish media news letter/paper

https://www.thelocal.se/20210408/swedish-government-pushes-ahead-with-new-migration-bill/

It is a factual story.
Here is a piece from the article

"After three years it would be possible to apply for a permanent residence permit, but this would only be granted if certain requirements are met, such as being able to support oneself and having sufficient Swedish language and civics skills. The latter requirement is new, and comes as Sweden is also planning tightened citizenship requirements"

It appears Sweden has changed direction.

You should have a quick read up on what Sweden offers in its social welfare package to all. No wonder they are swamped

I decided to fact check your fact checking and it seems like the language and civics part are not to be implemented this summer if the bill is passed. The below section is from the same article you linked.

the Local.se wrote:

Johansson said that although the new bill is meant to come into force this summer – if approved by parliament – the language and civics requirement needed more work to decide how it would work in practice, and would not be implemented immediately.

Which would make the Liberals headline in fact wrong. As they are not set to introduce any such laws according to the local.

theliberal.ie wrote:

Sweden to introduce new laws on citizenship requiring migrants to speak Swedish and be able to support themselves before they are granted Citizenship

Wibbs

RobbieTheRobber wrote: »

Which would make the Liberals headline in fact wrong. As they are not set to introduce any such laws according to the local.

Down to pedantics really. The liberal are putting their own spin on it, just as you're putting yours. The Swedes are it seems seeking to introduce such a bill, but some of it needs more work to implement.

Plus; what is considered wrong about being able to speak the language, understand the basics of the culture and not to be a burden on the public coffers of a nation one is seeking to move to? If I moved to Italy, or Japan, or anywhere, I would hardly expect to be welcomed with open arms if I couldn't speak the language to some degree and was looking for handouts.

Wibbs

Wibbs wrote: »

Plus; what is considered wrong about being able to speak the language, understand the basics of the culture and not to be a burden on the public coffers of a nation one is seeking to move to? If I moved to Italy, or Japan, or anywhere, I would hardly expect to be welcomed with open arms if I couldn't speak the language to some degree and was looking for handouts.

It's also about employment. The language requirement is there for people who are not specially going to be employed because of their native language. Take myself for example. In China I'm hired as a native speaker of English. I'm not an English teacher, per se, since I lecture business management, but the direction of the courses, is that it's taught in English, and with students who have learned English for a minimum of 7 years before entering university.

Whereas, I worked in a Chinese management consulting in Beijing, where again, the focus was on my ability to speak English, and understand Western corporate culture, for application within China. I was hired for those skills/experience.

With immigrants coming to Sweden, they would be working in Sweden, and expected to understand the local language to the extent that they could adequately perform their duties... they're (for the most part) not being hired to speak Arabic, or Spanish, nor is the focus of the employment to sell to the migrants country.

I've lived in China a decade, and have reasonably okay Mandarin for common day usage, but it's nowhere near fluent... but I don't need it to be because my environment is mostly aimed at English speakers. Nor do I need (and in fact it's actively discouraged) to have fluent mandarin for my teaching. However, to live in China, taking on roles commonly occupied by Chinese people, in non-English environments, I would definitely need to have the use of Mandarin, and likely, also the local dialect.

It boggles the mind the mental gymnastics that people will go through to avoid acknowledging the importance of having the host language, when you're going to live there, supposedly, the same as the host citizens. Unless, of course, you're not going there to work, and expect to supported throughout your stay there.

RobbieTheRobber

Wibbs wrote: »

Down to pedantics really. The liberal are putting their own spin on it, just as you're putting yours. The Swedes are it seems seeking to introduce such a bill, but some of it needs more work to implement.

Plus; what is considered wrong about being able to speak the language, understand the basics of the culture and not to be a burden on the public coffers of a nation one is seeking to move to? If I moved to Italy, or Japan, or anywhere, I would hardly expect to be welcomed with open arms if I couldn't speak the language to some degree and was looking for handouts.

To be pedantic, pedantics isn't a word.

The liberal explicitly mentioned the speaking the language requirement in the headline. Then in the first paragraph they again stated it would be a requirement under the new law.

But wait it isn't set to be introduced under the proposed bill it is fact being excluded from the bill set to be introduced according to the local. So yes that is a very big difference from the narrative the liberal is pushing. One might even go as far as to state it is a misleading claim.

It may come back in the future but there is no guarantee of that.

I have no problem with language being considered for inclusion in requirements for applications for residency. The devil as always is in the detail but as an idea no opposition to it.
That doesn't make the Liberal headline any less false using the local.se information. So if we were using one to fact check the other as the poster I quoted did, then it would be remiss to point out the inaccuracies of the liberal headline using the content of the local article.

mohawk

Wibbs wrote: »

Down to pedantics really. The liberal are putting their own spin on it, just as you're putting yours. The Swedes are it seems seeking to introduce such a bill, but some of it needs more work to implement.

Plus; what is considered wrong about being able to speak the language, understand the basics of the culture and not to be a burden on the public coffers of a nation one is seeking to move to? If I moved to Italy, or Japan, or anywhere, I would hardly expect to be welcomed with open arms if I couldn't speak the language to some degree and was looking for handouts.

A language requirement makes sense. Even if everyone you work with speaks your language what about life outside work when you need access to services and support. If you have children you need to be able to communicate with the school, teachers, other parents. If you or your children get sick you need to be able to communicate with nurses, doctors etc. You don’t need perfect English just good enough to communicate and understand others.

EddieN75

EddieN75 wrote: »

So yes Sweden is a nice place but some people are coming to take advantage. A lesson for Ireland perhaps??

Yep, but Ireland really shouldn't need to learn lessons from anywhere!
Social welfare fraud is huge in this country, has been for years. I don't care where anyone is from this fraud needs to be stopped.

I can't see anything wrong with a country having a language requirement.
I would actually go further and suggest that everybody moving to a country have to take mandatory language lessons. It's a life skill and can only be useful for everyone.
I include people who do not need visas in this.

Bambi

Bambi wrote: »

Thats what I like about Europe, its already diverse and its cultures are succesful. With multicultural exceptions the Balkans and Northern Ireland.
.

The Balkans is great

enricoh

Where did the 17000 undocumented figure come from anyone know?
I wonder what the odds would be with paddy power that the figure will be higher?!
I doubt they'd take the bet!

Kivaro

enricoh wrote: »

Where did the 17000 undocumented figure come from anyone know?
I wonder what the odds would be with paddy power that the figure will be higher?!
I doubt they'd take the bet!

Strong possibility of it hitting around the 50,000 mark.
The 17,000 number was just to make it palatable when they announced that they would legalise them all. When the process starts then the government will announce that they cannot stop at 17,000 and will continue until everyone in the country (and those who entered the country in the intervening period) are all signed up for social services, medical cards, housing etc.

I understand that there will be a contingent among this group who will actually work and contribute to Irish society, and ideally those are the only ones who should be regularised/legalised or whatever the word of the day is for that.

enricoh

enricoh wrote: »

Where did the 17000 undocumented figure come from anyone know?
I wonder what the odds would be with paddy power that the figure will be higher?!
I doubt they'd take the bet!

The thing is that illegals aren't arrested and deported unless they do something particularly bad. The Gardai will raid businesses suspected of having illegal workers, and those illegals who are caught, are often left go, with their details being taken.. but little will happen as a follow up. As such, between the Gardai, and other State services, they likely have a fair estimate (although it's still an estimate) of the amount of illegals in the country.

However, that estimate was well before covid, so the actual number would be anyone's guess. I didn't hear of an exodus of people leaving Ireland during the early days of covid, and logically, they would have stayed for the (probably) better health service available here..

Personally, I'd add another 10k people to the 17k simply because there will be illegals who managed to stay completely off the radar. There will be people who are hosted, with a documented person paying for the rent, and acting as a contact for anything that requires documentation/paperwork, but honestly, when I looked into this a few months ago, there are a lot of ways for illegals to live quite well (while also getting State supports/services) without being charged as an illegal migrant.

Basically, there hasn't ever been the political will to chase these people down (and do anything about them), so the number could be much higher than it's estimated, probably with some people being here for decades... especially if they have a native partner willing to cover tracks.

The thing that bugs me about this announcement, is that it shows clearly that the government has never really enforced our visa requirements on people who stay here illegally. Which makes me wonder what else they can't be bothered enforcing... but have managed to keep fairly quiet about.

Tea drinker

bubblypop wrote: »

The Balkans is great

I do like visiting... but then again I'm married into it

Tea drinker

Tea drinker wrote: »

I do like visiting... but then again I'm married into it

Visiting, sure. Playing tourist, definitely. But would you honestly want to live there? Better yet, would you want their cultural perception regarding corruption and authority to become commonplace in Ireland/Western Europe? I wouldn't.

There are naturally many positives to the cultures in the Balkans, but there's heaps of negatives too.

jmreire

Tea drinker wrote: »

I do like visiting... but then again I'm married into it

I'm a big fan of Belgrade myself , but Zagreb, Podgorica, Pristina or Skopje would be fine too.:)

Patrick2010

According to today's Indo the reason Helen McEntee is doing this is because shes afraid we'll be afraid of being accused of hypocrisy after lobbying on behalf of Irish illegals in the US.


https://twitter.com/HMcEntee/status/1385549966081409024

Except, we don't ask that Irish people living illegally in the US should be treated any differently. Deport them back to Ireland. Let them get valid visas, and stay there legally if that's what they want... it's really not that difficult unless you're a complete waster.

EddieN75

Patrick2010 wrote: »

According to today's Indo the reason Helen McEntee is doing this is because shes afraid we'll be afraid of being accused of hypocrisy after lobbying on behalf of Irish illegals in the US.


https://twitter.com/HMcEntee/status/1385549966081409024

It's always worth cutting through the social media waffle and reading the actual government released information

"Minister McEntee outlines draft scheme to regularise undocumented migrants to Cabinet

Consultation to begin on the terms of the scheme, with final government approval expected in September
Outline proposals, which will be subject to consultation, envisage scheme opening to those in the State for four years without a valid immigration permission
Successful applicants will receive immigration permission, access to the labour market and can begin path to citizenship
Undocumented scheme will open by the end of 2021

Minister McEntee and James Browne TD, the Minister of State for Law Reform, James Browne, will hold an information webinar with NGOs, civil society, employer organisations, trade unions and other key stakeholders on Monday, April 26th, on the proposed Regularisation Scheme for long-term Undocumented Migrants"


Can members of the public tune in the witness the webinar? We are stakeholders

Lemon Davis lll

bubblypop wrote: »

You will have to explain this one, you think that 17,000 people, who we will assume have been law abiding up till now are suddenly going to turn into massive criminals and end up in prison?

Clue's in the name - illegal immigrants

EddieN75

On the migrants rights centre Ireland Facebook page the announcement from the minister of justice has been pasted with great fanfare.

People are commenting saying it's about time the undocumented received "justice"

There are also people commenting saying things such as " I'm undocumented, this is great news"

Openly admitting to being illegally in the country.

joseywhales

Deleted User wrote: »

Except, we don't ask that Irish people living illegally in the US should be treated any differently. Deport them back to Ireland. Let them get valid visas, and stay there legally if that's what they want... it's really not that difficult unless you're a complete waster.

To get a green card, or even a immigration visa for the us is almost impossible. You can do a lottery where you have a one in 16k chance I think. You can work for a multinational and push for an internal transfer to the us(probably the easiest) or you can might be able to get a visa if you have a phd or greater education but you probably need employment lined up. Other than that you can compete with the world for a h1 visa sponsored by an employer again and these might have stopped due to covid. Even with the visas people end up having to renew them yearly for decades before they can apply for a green card. It's really very difficult. Unless you marry an american. If you are over 35 I'd say it's pretty much impossible.

joseywhales

joseywhales wrote: »

To get a green card, or even a immigration visa for the us is almost impossible. You can do a lottery where you have a one in 16k chance I think. You can work for a multinational and push for an internal transfer to the us(probably the easiest) or you can might be able to get a visa if you have a phd or greater education but you probably need employment lined up. Other than that you can compete with the world for a h1 visa sponsored by an employer again and these might have stopped due to covid. Even with the visas people end up having to renew them yearly for decades before they can apply for a green card. It's really very difficult. Unless you marry an american. If you are over 35 I'd say it's pretty much impossible.

"Other than that you can compete with the world for a h1 visa sponsored by an employer again and these might have stopped due to covid"

My thoughts. Work or study. The best ways to get into a country, and Irish people have the advantage since there are so many companies that are willing to sponsor Irish people for work. It's not that difficult since most Irish people have the opportunities to achieve a relatively high level of education before going to the US.

I've done fixed term contract work in the US twice. I had no problems getting the visa, and that was at a time when I only had a Bachelor degree.