What are your views on Multiculturalism in Ireland? - Threadbanned User List in OP

Strumms

Sand wrote: »

True. That said, we don't even have freedom of movement within Ireland. So the whole idea of FoM being some natural law of reality is laughable.

Well, covid has put paid to it but..

My property, I own. I 100% make every decision as relates to who comes in the door.

The people of Ireland own this country. From the proclamation..

“We declare the right of the people of Ireland to the ownership of Ireland and to the unfettered control of Irish destinies, to be sovereign and indefeasible”

“The long usurpation of that right by a foreign people and government has not extinguished the right, nor can it ever be extinguished.”

Strayed a bit far from that.

RobbieTheRobber

Sand wrote: »

What it shows is that the EU principle of freedom of movement can co-exist with the prevention of freedom of movement. So it isn't some law of nature like gravity. It is down to government policy.

This is even before we even recognize that the EU itself compromises on the principle of freedom of movement. If I recall correctly countries like Liechtenstein impose restrictions of FoM with the blessing of the EU.

So ultimately, this comes down to policy. Down to choices made by governments. Not to Moses coming down from the mountain top with the word of god carved in stone tablets.

During a global pandemic when movement of citizens within the country of Ireland is restricted to citizens own counties. Yeah sand that really proves the EU commitment to freedom of movement is up for debate.

Lichtenstein is not one of the EU 27 but a member of the EEA and as far as I know there are no restrictions on eu citizens in liechtenstein. Or the citizens information page is incorrect.
https://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/government_in_ireland/european_government/european_union/freedom_of_movement_in_the_eu.html#:~:text=Freedom%20of%20movement%20applies%20to,EU%20member%20states)%20and%20Switzerland.

Sand

Strumms wrote: »

Well, covid has put paid to it but..

My property, I own. I 100% make every decision as relates to who comes in the door.

The people of Ireland own this country. From the proclamation..

“We declare the right of the people of Ireland to the ownership of Ireland and to the unfettered control of Irish destinies, to be sovereign and indefeasible”

Strayed a bit far from that.

That is why the whole concept of 'Irish' is attacked as a meaningless category. Once the 'people of Ireland' are diminished, so is their ownership of Ireland.

Advocates of mass migration will cast migrants and their descendants as being both minorities (i.e. not Irish) and at the same time just as Irish as anyone whose ancestors have lived here since the Iron age. The only way this can be held as being true is if 'Irish' is devalued to being little more than following a football team, or consuming a particular brand of product such as Marvel superhero movies. Something inclusive anyone can participate in whilst maintaining their own exclusive ethnic identity.

Except for Irish people of course - once Irish identity has been reduced to a shallow marketing exericise (St. Arthur's Day for example) then there is no exclusive ethnic identity left for them.

RobbieTheRobber

Strumms wrote: »

Well, covid has put paid to it but..

My property, I own. I 100% make every decision as relates to who comes in the door.

The people of Ireland own this country. From the proclamation..

“We declare the right of the people of Ireland to the ownership of Ireland and to the unfettered control of Irish destinies, to be sovereign and indefeasible”

“The long usurpation of that right by a foreign people and government has not extinguished the right, nor can it ever be extinguished.”

Strayed a bit far from that.

Why not quote the whole thing. I love the part about invoking god to aid and the part about letting the children sacrifice themselves.

But really when you start invoking the declaration of independence to try and win a argument you really are scraping the bottom of the barrel.

Sand

RobbieTheRobber wrote: »

During a global pandemic when movement of citizens within the country of Ireland is restricted to citizens own counties. Yeah sand that really proves the EU commitment to freedom of movement is up for debate.

It does actually.

I find it ironic tbh. This time last year I was arguing the correct response by the US government (and indeed other governments) to COVID was to institute a travel ban on China, and on countries which otherwise refused to follow suit. Of course at that time I was told that was unthinkable. Impossible. Ludicrous.

Now here we are more than 12 months later when we could barely leave our homes and you are talking about freedom of movement as if it is some natural law. It isnt. It is policy. Policies can be changed. Get over it.

RobbieTheRobber

[Deleted User] wrote: »

The freedom of movement perspective was originally based entirely on EU citizens being able to travel and work in other EU countries.

Not migrants with visas for a particular EU nation. Non-EU Migrants with a visa for France wouldn't have the permission to move to Ireland to live and work.

Klaz the poster I am quoting is suggesting not allowing other eu citizens in nothing to with migrants. The poster is suggesting people from other eu countries should not be allowed here because we need that level of control of our borders.

Strumms

Strumms wrote: »

Freedom of movement fine and dandy, inside the fûcking EU... anybody coming from outside the EU, no. Should be visa required, with exception for certain countries ie. USA, Australia, New Zealand.

Actually, I disagree with you because those countries don't have similar agreements for EU citizens, and even if they did, I still wouldn't want complete freedom to live/work in Europe for them. Oz/NZ/US have limited work/study visa options for EU citizens, which tend to shift somewhat depending on the political landscape.

The EU should be focused on EU citizens. There is already a significant number of people in the EU who are unemployed, and there should be a greater focus on encouraging those unemployed to gain work within the EU. Yes, I know of the EU portals, and other schemes... but we shouldn't be making it easier for people from the US to come here, when we have no control over who becomes a US citizen.. and later, we might want better controls over who they allow to come over here.

Just have the visa requirements with regards to a sponsor (who is legally/financially responsible for the applicant), and a fixed renewable term for the visa. As with most nations, and their approach to visas, it would be easier for some countries over others, but there should still be a set of requirements to avoid the case of people staying without employment or other scenarios which have drawbacks for our own society.

RobbieTheRobber

RobbieTheRobber wrote: »

Klaz the poster I am quoting is suggesting not allowing other eu citizens in nothing to with migrants. The poster is suggesting people from other eu countries should not be allowed here because we need that level of control of our borders.

Fair enough. I misunderstood your statement.

Freedom of movement for EU citizens should be protected. It's simply worth so much, and the downsides can be compensated with other measures.

On your point I wasn't aware that work visas issued in one eu country were valid in another eu country.

They're not. It is possible to get a visa from one country extended to be covered in another country but it's apparently quite difficult to gain the permission.

RobbieTheRobber

Sand wrote: »

It does actually.

I find it ironic tbh. This time last year I was arguing the correct response by the US government (and indeed other governments) to COVID was to institute a travel ban on China, and on countries which otherwise refused to follow suit. Of course at that time I was told that was unthinkable. Impossible. Ludicrous.

Now here we are more than 12 months later when we could barely leave our homes and you are talking about freedom of movement as if it is some natural law. It isnt. It is policy. Policies can be changed. Get over it.

But freedom to travel hasn't been stopped. People from Spain can still come. People from Germany can come here etc etc.

As for the rest I'm not getting into a conspiracy discussion on if the government will give us back our freedom after the Global pandemic is under control in ireland.
Masks are mind control, eh Sand.

Sand

RobbieTheRobber wrote: »

But freedom to travel hasn't been stopped. People from Spain can still come. People from Germany can come here etc etc.

Yep, back to my original point. The principle of freedom of movement co-exists with very real restrictions on that freedom of movement even within Ireland where for months at a time our freedom of movement ended 5 kms from our doorsteps.

As for the rest I'm not getting into a conspiracy discussion on if the government will give us back our freedom after the Global pandemic is under control in ireland.
Masks are mind control, eh Sand.

Give the strawman a rest. Go tilt at windmills elsewhere.

RobbieTheRobber

Sand wrote: »

Yep, back to my original point. The principle of freedom of movement co-exists with very real restrictions on that freedom of movement even within Ireland where for months at a time our freedom of movement ended 5 kms from our doorsteps.

Give the strawman a rest. Go tilt at windmills elsewhere

OK back to your point. So what are you saying again Ireland shouldn't allow eu citizens to live work and travel here freely?

Strumms

Strumms wrote: »

Freedom of movement fine and dandy, inside the fûcking EU... anybody coming from outside the EU, no. Should be visa required, with exception for certain countries ie. USA, Australia, New Zealand.

Which is exactly what we have.
Except visas are needed by persons from those countries you mentioned.
So we actually have tighter restrictions then you want

Sand

Sand wrote: »

Yep, back to my original point. The principle of freedom of movement co-exists with very real restrictions on that freedom of movement even within Ireland where for months at a time our freedom of movement ended 5 kms from our doorsteps.
.

I'm afraid you don't understand what the EU right on freedom of movement is.
It's not freedom to go on holidays wherever you want or a ban on governments from controlling their own borders.

Freedom of movement refers to goods and people, EU citizens are free to live and work in another EU state.
That's it. Do you have an issue with that?

jmreire

bubblypop wrote: »

I'm afraid you don't understand what the EU right on freedom of movement is.
It's not freedom to go on holidays wherever you want or a ban on governments from controlling their own borders.

Freedom of movement refers to goods and people, EU citizens are free to live and work in another EU state.
That's it. Do you have an issue with that?

Except in a pandemic, where Countrys can and do restrict travel.

jmreire

jmreire wrote: »

Except in a pandemic, where Countrys can and do restrict travel.

Already stated, freedom of movement for goods services And people, a fundamental right in the EU.
Freedom of movement for people allows them to live and work in an EU country. Which they can still do, a pandemic doesn't change that right.

It has nothing to do with the right to holiday wherever you want, or anything else.
Countries can and do control their own border. Ireland is not in schengen, for example.

ThunbergsAreGo

bubblypop wrote: »

Which is exactly what we have.
Except visas are needed by persons from those countries you mentioned.
So we actually have tighter restrictions then you want

Rules and Restrictions only matter if enforced.

We are starting a process to legalise likely upwards of 20k who have circumvented these rules.

jmreire

Yes,free movement of goods and people is guaranteed in the EU. Yet the high court threw out an appeal in a case where two people made a claim against the government exactly on those grounds, that the government infringed on these eu rights by limiting travel to 5k. The pandemic evidently transcended these rights. And rightly so..who wants an out of control covid-19 like they now have in India? Free travel will resume when the pandemic is finished.

jmreire

jmreire wrote: »

Yes,free movement of goods and people is guaranteed in the EU. Yet the high court threw out an appeal in a case where two people made a claim against the government exactly on those grounds, that the government infringed on these eu rights by limiting travel to 5k. The pandemic evidently transcended these rights. And rightly so..who wants an out of control covid-19 like they now have in India? Free travel will resume when the pandemic is finished.

You don't understand.
Freedom of movement of people refers to EU citizens living and working in other member states. It has nothing to do with borders or freedom of movement because you feel like it.
It does not stop countries from making their own laws.
Covid restrictions do not impinge on your right to freedom of movement.

Your fundamental right of freedom of movement had not been affected by covid restrictions, it is still valid.
Those two individuals got it wrong, which is why their case went nowhere.

jmreire

bubblypop wrote: »

You don't understand.
Freedom of movement of people refers to EU citizens living and working in other member states. It has nothing to do with borders or freedom of movement because you feel like it.
It does not stop countries from making their own laws.
Covid restrictions do not impinge on your right to freedom of movement.

Your fundamental right of freedom of movement had not been affected by covid restrictions, it is still valid.
Those two individuals got it wrong, which is why their case went nowhere.

I know several people who were planning to go abroad for holidays this year, ( me for one) but upto now, unless you can show good medical reasons, forget it. We had Guards stopping people from boarding ( or even entering the airport buildings,) early on. Hopefully it will change later on, but EU Law or not, you cannot travel abroad at the moment.

jmreire

jmreire wrote: »

I know several people who were planning to go abroad for holidays this year, ( me for one) but upto now, unless you can show good medical reasons, forget it. We had Guards stopping people from boarding ( or even entering the airport buildings,) early on. Hopefully it will change later on, but EU Law or not, you cannot travel abroad at the moment.

You have me wrong I think, freedom of movement does not stop countries from controlling their own borders.
It never did.
Ireland do control their own border.

Arthur Daley

It's all just splitting hairs now. As to whether the illegals skip past a border at the airport or commit illegal acts and abuse our societies by overstaying visas. It's the same end result. Tens of thousands of illegals in Ireland.

A very large majority of people in the UK thought we have voted time and time again and they are finally doing something about closing off the border/visa scams and getting back to the way things were before the last 10 to 20 years of mass immigration. Then it's found by Farage and others that dinghies are still coming across from France every day from May to October.

And lets not forget the criminals involved in this trade

Its dawning on people that it may not just be the EU that is our problem here.

Strumms

RobbieTheRobber wrote: »

Why not quote the whole thing. I love the part about invoking god to aid and the part about letting the children sacrifice themselves.

But really when you start invoking the declaration of independence to try and win a argument you really are scraping the bottom of the barrel.

I’m not trying to ‘win’ an argument... simply discussing the topic at hand... ‘winning’ is all of a sudden a goal of discussing a topic ? To me it’s not, to you perhaps...

Discussing the principles of the foundation of the state as relates to the topic and situation we face is scraping the bottom of a barrel ? I don’t think so, however in a democracy you are free to believe such.

Dyr

bubblypop wrote: »

We do control our borders.
Membership of the EU involves freedom of travel and work for eu citizens.
Do you not believe in that fundamental right for eu citizens?

I know you've done the mental gymnastics to enable that level of doublethink but its a fairly obvious that if a country cant decide who gets to cross its borders then it does not control its borders

Freedom of movement is not a fundemntal right, The United States is not denying us a fundamental right by not allowing us to live and work.

Bambi

Bambi wrote: »

I know you've done the mental gymnastics to enable that level of doublethink but its a fairly obvious that if a country cant decide who gets to cross its borders then it does not control its borders

Freedom of movement is not a fundemntal right, The United States is not denying us a fundamental right by not allowing us to live and work.

Freedom of movement is a fundamental right of the EU.
I never mentioned anywhere else.
That right applies to goods services and people (workers) it does not apply to anything else and we have control of our border.
Ireland is not even in schengen.

Arthur Daley

bubblypop wrote: »

Ireland is not even in schengen.

But it is in the Common travel area. So Ireland's border (or lack of/lack of any proper enforcement of migration law) also becomes Britain's problem.

eleventh

_Kaiser_ wrote: »

...
You come here, you abide by OUR rules and adapt to OUR culture and societal norms - NOT the other way around! If you don't like that, you're welcome to try your luck elsewhere!

Considering our location, a small island on the western edge, they have to have tried luck elsewhere first. In the early days I'd say that's how it went, before word spread, so they come here directly now.

In the past, people thought more in terms of geography/location. When someone arrived the first thought would be, What brings you here from <insert country 1000s miles away>?

jmreire

jmreire wrote: »

I know several people who were planning to go abroad for holidays this year, ( me for one) but upto now, unless you can show good medical reasons, forget it. We had Guards stopping people from boarding ( or even entering the airport buildings,) early on. Hopefully it will change later on, but EU Law or not, you cannot travel abroad at the moment.

Sure, you can. I've been in Ireland all year, and I could, at almost any stage of that, have returned to China (just not a direct route). I stayed not due to the difficulty in travelling, but rather the overall risk involved. I know two people who got covid while going through airports (both recovered fine) but were prevented from transferring and so, were required to return home.

If you can show that you are travelling for work, then, you get to travel. Things have become more difficult now, with the need for vaccines to have been taken, but it's still possible. Also my brother, while working most of the time at home in Ireland, also travels twice a month to London to do his job. There are a variety of open spots in the travel ban for people.

As with most things in Ireland, there is what the media/government says, and then, what really happens elsewhere.

Overheal

Bambi wrote: »

I know you've done the mental gymnastics to enable that level of doublethink but its a fairly obvious that if a country cant decide who gets to cross its borders then it does not control its borders

Freedom of movement is not a fundemntal right, The United States is not denying us a fundamental right by not allowing us to live and work.

So does your take mean no country has a controlled border? Every border in the world has illegal crossings that I can think of, even the DPRK.

jmreire

Deleted User wrote: »

Sure, you can. I've been in Ireland all year, and I could, at almost any stage of that, have returned to China (just not a direct route). I stayed not due to the difficulty in travelling, but rather the overall risk involved. I know two people who got covid while going through airports (both recovered fine) but were prevented from transferring and so, were required to return home.

If you can show that you are travelling for work, then, you get to travel. Things have become more difficult now, with the need for vaccines to have been taken, but it's still possible. Also my brother, while working most of the time at home in Ireland, also travels twice a month to London to do his job. There are a variety of open spots in the travel ban for people.

As with most things in Ireland, there is what the media/government says, and then, what really happens elsewhere.

Yes I understand that Klaz, once you have a valid reason, you are good to go, but the problem for many thousands of people is for holiday travel, which as far as I know, is not considered essential.....and then depending on what Country you are visiting, the possibility of a two week stay in a hotel on return. So shall we say, foreign travel is not encouraged at this point.

jmreire

jmreire wrote: »

Yes I understand that Klaz, once you have a valid reason, you are good to go, but the problem for many thousands of people is for holiday travel, which as far as I know, is not considered essential.....and then depending on what Country you are visiting, the possibility of a two week stay in a hotel on return. So shall we say, foreign travel is not encouraged at this point.

Nor should it be.

Look, I completely understand the desire to travel and see somewhere different. I am extremely grateful to my parents for allowing me to stay with them for the year, but, the truth is that the major part of my life is in Asia, and I have gone through cycles of insanity/depression while I've been in Ireland.

However, while I do believe that the governments overreacted (under-reacted initially) with the travel bans, at the same time, free movement in terms of international travel would have been utterly retarded. Still is.. at least until the vaccines are widely dispersed, and we know for sure as to their effectiveness.

I'd love to be back in Asia now. I'll be missing summer, which means missing all those gorgeous legs, and coming back just in time for dismal polluted winter. All the same, I definitely don't want to rely on Asian hospitals or the standard of care should I contract covid.

I get where you're coming from, but the travel bans make sense. It won't be for much longer anyway.