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What are your views on Multiculturalism in Ireland? - Threadbanned User List in OP
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It would seem that politicians are sniffing the political winds, and there seems to be an increase of them jumping on the anti-immigrant band wagon...
(1) New Zealand to cut low skill immigration On Monday, the New Zealand government announced it would be narrowing pathways for those hoping to migrate and work in the country, particularly those it classed as “low-skill” and low-wage workers"
(2) Michel Barnier seems to have ruffled as many feathers in France with his latest comments on immigration as he did in Britain during his stint as EU Brexit negotiator. Positioning himself to run as the rightwing candidate in next year’s presidential elections, Barnier told a TV interviewer that he wanted to suspend immigration to France from outside the EU, including family reunions, for three to five years. Immigration, he suggested, was linked to terrorism and was a threat to the stability of French society. He also called for talks with other members of the Schengen group (the 26 European countries that have abolished all passport controls at their mutual borders) to strengthen the EU’s external borders.
Barnier’s remarks caused outrage. But, shocking though they were, the comments are an extreme version of actual EU policy. Politicians of all hues have accepted that freedom of movement inside Europe requires the tightening of restrictions against non-Europeans.
I wouldn’t call what New Zealand are doing an anti-immigrant policy. They are not stopping immigration at all. Low income earners pay no tax and as has been demonstrated in countless countries that low income immigrants get stuck in a poverty trap that subsequent generations struggle to get out of and this can have consequences for society.
Personally I see no problem in non EU immigrants coming to Ireland that are fulfilling a skills shortage, paying tax, can provide housing etc for their families and also have English so they can comfortably engage with Irish Society and services etc. However, there does need to be some level of integration into Irish society (I am not saying giving up all important parts of their own culture).0 -
I just don't see it happening tbh.Deleted User wrote: »I wouldn't worry too much because the majority population (native) will be the ones pushing for change, and a reduction of foreign influence.
Brexit was caused by far more than their experiences with immigration.. and they had a wide range of political/historical issues dealing with Europe.
France isn't tearing itself apart. They're starting to recognise on a national level the impact of past failures with regards to integration. As are most European nations who have found that past efforts to encourage integration as opposed to expecting assimilation, have mostly failed. But the native population isn't eating itself over the situation.. you're simply seeing a shift in attitudes that are becoming more public. A movement away from the right wing groups, and a desire by many for a more reasonable response to the problems plaguing Europe.
I expect to see some serious changes to immigration policy, and the ability to gain citizenship in most European countries, along with a review of citizenship given out to past migrants. A hardening of opinions towards those who have moved to Europe, and their contributions to their host nation, along with their efforts to integrate. I wouldn't be too surprised over the next decade or slightly longer than that, to see a variety of European nations give the middle finger to the UN, and start deporting those were given citizenship, but have failed to meet the desired standards of being a citizen... Then, there's also the hardening of opinions towards other religious groups, Islam in particular, and the influence that religion has since it has political realities in addition to the social.
TBH I'm feeling quite positive about what's happening in Europe. There's a growing movement of people who are going to call the NGOs, activists, and virtue signallers out on their agendas. Likely we'll see a greater focus on nationalism, whether that's on the national level, or with Europe as a bloc.
So... for me, I'm quite hopeful that people are starting to look for answers, as opposed to simply passing the problems over to the next generation to resolve. Ireland is further behind on the curve on this one, but I also hope that our politicians will follow Europe in this, although likely they'll be a year or two behind them.
In the case of Ireland older people it's been shown will vote and mobilise on their own interests. If they're convinced their pension depends on people coming from outside the EU to drain the state's coffers then they'll go along with it.
The under-60s in Ireland are disproportionately non-citizens compared to the overall population. So you've already got the over-60s who will do anything for a medical card then a large proportion of the under-60s for whom tightening immigration standards definitely ain't in their interests.
What remains would need to be highly skewed in one direction for your hopes to come true and it just isn't.
The plan is to increase the population by 1 million in the next 30 years while our birth rate is below replacement and proportion of births to non-EU mothers is more than double that of the proportion of non-EU population.
The way things are going I'd say it's fairly conservative to estimate that by 2050 over half the population here will be 3rd-generation or less immigrants.0 -
[Deleted User] wrote: »I just don't see it happening tbh.
In the case of Ireland older people it's been shown will vote and mobilise on their own interests. If they're convinced their pension depends on people coming from outside the EU to drain the state's coffers then they'll go along with it.
The under-60s in Ireland are disproportionately non-citizens compared to the overall population. So you've already got the over-60s who will do anything for a medical card then a large proportion of the under-60s for whom tightening immigration standards definitely ain't in their interests.
What remains would need to be highly skewed in one direction for your hopes to come true and it just isn't.
The plan is to increase the population by 1 million in the next 30 years while our birth rate is below replacement and proportion of births to non-EU mothers is more than double that of the proportion of non-EU population.
The way things are going I'd say it's fairly conservative to estimate that by 2050 over half the population here will be 3rd-generation or less immigrants.
The proportion of births is greater because that tends to be the age cohort who initially immigrate but the fertility rate isn't double, it's nowhere near that. World fertility outside of Africa is barely above replacement, roughly 2.4.
Saying that, the plan isn't to add a million by 2050, they are aiming for 2040. That includes natural growth and a large percentage through immigration.
In terms of the pension system, continuing mass immigration won't solve it, the entire system needs to be reformed. Ireland will have plenty of examples to look at though because a huge swath of countries are hitting this issue now before us, places like Spain etc.0 -
Personally I see no problem in non EU immigrants coming to Ireland that are fulfilling a skills shortage, paying tax, can provide housing etc for their families and also have English so they can comfortably engage with Irish Society and services etc. However, there does need to be some level of integration into Irish society (I am not saying giving up all important parts of their own culture).
I've no issue with it either, just looking for sensible proposals all round. The French, British and American governments have way lower levels/targets than what we currently have. Britain wants less than 100,000 a year, which is a maximum of 1/7 of 1% per annum. Macron in France is proposing 30,000 non EU immigrants a year. America had 600,000 a year in 2019. For comparison Macrons proposal for non EU immigration would be the equivalent of Ireland allowing 2,000 people a year. In 2019, we had ten times that in nett non-EU migration.0 -
Deleted User wrote: »I just don't see it happening tbh.
In the case of Ireland older people it's been shown will vote and mobilise on their own interests. If they're convinced their pension depends on people coming from outside the EU to drain the state's coffers then they'll go along with it.
Except, Ireland is changing... as are "older people". Their awareness of what's going on is far different from, say, a generation or two generations ago. My parents, who are in their 80s, are fully aware that the likelihood of pensions existing (after a decade or so) for most people is very unlikely, and for those remaining with the pension, it will continue to drop in value considerably over time.
There simply isn't the State revenue available compared to the rising costs to keep up.
Oh, sure, some people will continue to buy into the promises of the politicians, but people are more aware of what's going on than ever before. My mother checks a variety of social media accounts, and is more plugged into what's going on in Ireland, than I am.
I would hesitate to trust statistics or generalisations about any age group (except for the young) as our society is shifting so much, both from the impact of technology, but also the loss of innocence when it comes to politics.The under-60s in Ireland are disproportionately non-citizens compared to the overall population.
How does that work out? Non-citizens are still very much a minority compared to the overall population.So you've already got the over-60s who will do anything for a medical card then a large proportion of the under-60s for whom tightening immigration standards definitely ain't in their interests.
What remains would need to be highly skewed in one direction for your hopes to come true and it just isn't.
Ahh well, the majority of the post you quoted was related to Europe, and only the last paragraph related to Ireland.
However, immigration which results in low skilled/lowly educated workers, will increase costs to the State, and therefore reduce the revenue available to provide services to the over/under 60s. That's simple/obvious enough. Then add in the social unrest that will happen as those low skilled workers find themselves unable to get work, and reacting to all those promises that politicians made, but failed to deliver on.
There's plenty of reasons for people to decide that immigration will produce more negatives than positives, and it's becoming increasingly difficult for RTE or our politicians to hide that. Especially once the remainder of Europe starts campaigning hard against immigration.The plan is to increase the population by 1 million in the next 30 years while our birth rate is below replacement and proportion of births to non-EU mothers is more than double that of the proportion of non-EU population.
The way things are going I'd say it's fairly conservative to estimate that by 2050 over half the population here will be 3rd-generation or less immigrants.
I doubt it. A large percentage of migrant groups will fcuk off to other nations once the recession hits Ireland properly, and they find a government unable to provide the level of benefits that were available over the last decade or so. Ireland can't provide the range of work that most of these people need, nor the welfare, when those jobs remain unavailable... whereas Germany, and others, can.
But sure, if immigration continues as it has done before... then we'll see the insane desire by our politicians realised. Although, I wouldn't be too quick to dismiss natural birth rates of natives from compensating.. It's entirely possible we'll see another shift in birth rates due to social change, as people are now more capable of working from home, thus making the idea of having a family easier to achieve. That counts for a lot..0 -
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I wouldn’t call what New Zealand are doing an anti-immigrant policy. They are not stopping immigration at all. Low income earners pay no tax and as has been demonstrated in countless countries that low income immigrants get stuck in a poverty trap that subsequent generations struggle to get out of and this can have consequences for society.
Personally I see no problem in non EU immigrants coming to Ireland that are fulfilling a skills shortage, paying tax, can provide housing etc for their families and also have English so they can comfortably engage with Irish Society and services etc. However, there does need to be some level of integration into Irish society (I am not saying giving up all important parts of their own culture).
Its not anti-immigration per se. And same as the majority of posters here, they are not against immigration either...once its the kind of immigrant who is needed and who will pay their way, and integrate into Irish society and culture. But NZ are going public about it.0 -
It's anti-immigration, because for those who advocate for greater amounts of immigration/multiculturalism/diversity, they live in a very black/white good/bad kind of reality. Either you're completely on board or your anti.
IMO, It's the case with most agendas these days. If you don't immediately and completely accept everything related to the Trans situation, then you're anti-trans or transphobic. Same with just about any movement out there. Either you're with us, or you're against us.. and if you're not with us, then your position must represent all extreme examples of refusal/denial too.
Somehow, it's unreasonable to expect that the vast majority of migrants should be able to completely support themselves when they move to another country.0 -
Non-EU mothers made up 8.4% of births while non-EU people are 3.5% of the population.Deleted User wrote: »The proportion of births is greater because that tends to be the age cohort who initially immigrate but the fertility rate isn't double, it's nowhere near that. World fertility outside of Africa is barely above replacement, roughly 2.4.
The "natural increase" won't be coming from Irish people.Saying that, the plan isn't to add a million by 2050, they are aiming for 2040. That includes natural growth and a large percentage through immigration.
That's how it's sold though.In terms of the pension system, continuing mass immigration won't solve it, the entire system needs to be reformed. Ireland will have plenty of examples to look at though because a huge swath of countries are hitting this issue now before us, places like Spain etc.
We saw what people cared about when there was a suggestion of taking the medical card off some people who had an income of over a grand a week. They'll vote for their perceived self-interest.Deleted User wrote: »Except, Ireland is changing... as are "older people". Their awareness of what's going on is far different from, say, a generation or two generations ago. My parents, who are in their 80s, are fully aware that the likelihood of pensions existing (after a decade or so) for most people is very unlikely, and for those remaining with the pension, it will continue to drop in value considerably over time.
There simply isn't the State revenue available compared to the rising costs to keep up.
Oh, sure, some people will continue to buy into the promises of the politicians, but people are more aware of what's going on than ever before. My mother checks a variety of social media accounts, and is more plugged into what's going on in Ireland, than I am.
What proportion of over-60s are non-Irish? It's a far lower proportion than of the under-60s.How does that work out? Non-citizens are still very much a minority compared to the overall population.
In 20 years when most of those people have died off the replacements will be proportionally much more likely to be the children of immigrants or be the half a million immigrants we "need" in the next 20 years.
At some point the "minorities" won't be a token grouping in the country. We've gone from a tiny foreign-born population to one of the highest in the world in the space of 2 decades. Our government's stated aim is to accelerate that further. There's still few people who seem willing to say "enough" and it won't be long til it's too late.Ahh well, the majority of the post you quoted was related to Europe, and only the last paragraph related to Ireland.
However, immigration which results in low skilled/lowly educated workers, will increase costs to the State, and therefore reduce the revenue available to provide services to the over/under 60s. That's simple/obvious enough. Then add in the social unrest that will happen as those low skilled workers find themselves unable to get work, and reacting to all those promises that politicians made, but failed to deliver on.
If only.There's plenty of reasons for people to decide that immigration will produce more negatives than positives, and it's becoming increasingly difficult for RTE or our politicians to hide that. Especially once the remainder of Europe starts campaigning hard against immigration.
When? Just looking on the CSO there and these are the numbers for year-ending April.I doubt it. A large percentage of migrant groups will fcuk off to other nations once the recession hits Ireland properly, and they find a government unable to provide the level of benefits that were available over the last decade or so. Ireland can't provide the range of work that most of these people need, nor the welfare, when those jobs remain unavailable... whereas Germany, and others, can.
Irish citizens:
2016 -8800
2017 -3400
2018 +100
2019 -2100
2020 +500
Net migration:
2016 +16200
2017 +19800
2018 +34000
2019 +33700
2020 +28900
So yeah, even when things are steady the Irish are still leaving while non-Irish keep flowing in.
I can't find yearly stats for 2009-2015 but off the top of my head while a lot of Irish were leaving the net for non-Irish stayed positive in some years.
Has anywhere managed to turn around a falling birth rate? Covid has caused another drop and I'm going to go out on a wild limb and guess that it's middle-earners who have held off on having kids more than those who weren't too worried about how they would fund it.But sure, if immigration continues as it has done before... then we'll see the insane desire by our politicians realised. Although, I wouldn't be too quick to dismiss natural birth rates of natives from compensating.. It's entirely possible we'll see another shift in birth rates due to social change, as people are now more capable of working from home, thus making the idea of having a family easier to achieve. That counts for a lot..0 -
Deleted User wrote: »We saw what people cared about when there was a suggestion of taking the medical card off some people who had an income of over a grand a week. They'll vote for their perceived self-interest.
Everyone votes for their own self-interest, or the feel good factor of helping others out. And...? The medical card makes sense in a first world nation, the size of Ireland... and it is something worth paying to retain.
I don't quite get your point about it though.What proportion of over-60s are non-Irish? It's a far lower proportion than of the under-60s.
In 20 years when most of those people have died off the replacements will be proportionally much more likely to be the children of immigrants or be the half a million immigrants we "need" in the next 20 years.
You would need to increase the population of non-Irish significantly for that to be the case. Even with another 1 million added to the overall population, your logic still wouldn't add up. I think you'd want to add another decade or two to your estimate. Besides which, Irish people are still having children at a reasonably decent rate.At some point the "minorities" won't be a token grouping in the country. We've gone from a tiny foreign-born population to one of the highest in the world in the space of 2 decades. Our government's stated aim is to accelerate that further. There's still few people who seem willing to say "enough" and it won't be long til it's too late.
Except that there's little difference between Irish people and Eastern Europeans, in terms of attitudes, and values. The same can be said for many of the EU nationalities who come here, and out of all immigration, EU nationalities make up a significant percentage.
The problem is that our government has serious wood for the idea of non-EU immigration, and they're likely to increase in numbers over the years. However, while I do sympathise with your viewpoint (somewhat), I don't agree since we will be receiving large numbers of Europeans, Russians, etc to somewhat counteract the effects of those other sources.
Besides which, I'm fairly confident that the crazy desire for immigrants will be snuffed out over the next decade or so.If only.
Ireland has a long history of following in the footsteps of other nations. We're simply behind the curve. Europe is turning against immigration, and is finally understanding that integration/assimilation doesn't work the same way it used to. Ireland will fall into line with the rest of Europe, just as it did when it was pro-multiculturalism.
Irish politicians don't have the balls to stand up to European pressure.When? Just looking on the CSO there and these are the numbers for year-ending April.
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I'm going to snip, because I'm getting the feeling that you're not really reading my responses. I did say when before (just as you've skipped over a variety of other points of mine). The coming recession and what will come afterwards. We were facing a recession before covid came along, which was deferred by all the debt taken and it's going to be ten time worse due to covid. I seriously doubt Ireland will remain a choice destination for migrants, because there's going to a decline in businesses that generally offer employment to migrants. Ireland simply doesn't have the economy to cater to them..
You quoted a post of mine which talked about Europe... except for a two line paragraph at the end, and yet, you've decided to apply it all to Ireland. I get it. I understand your points... and I'm not disagreeing with you. Not exactly. I do think you're exaggerating and are being far too negative, without taking into account the changes that will happen over the next decade.
Still. I hope you do continue to raise these points with others. The more of this the better, since it encourages public debate on the topic, and an informed population is best suited to stopping our politicians from mortgaging our futures just so they can bring dubious refugees here.0 -
Looking at the numbers, 2030-2035 will be the point of no return for Ireland. Something needs to happen soon. We need to stop relying on immigration and start incentivising our own people to have children.0
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Looking at the numbers, 2030-2035 will be the point of no return for Ireland. Something needs to happen soon. We need to stop relying on immigration and start incentivising our own people to have children.
Therein lies the problem.
The average couple are already at breaking point with childcare fees and other expenses
if one parent stays home then less income, having multiple children these days has never been harder.
Unless of course you are an immigrant where you can avail of many options. or irish dole scum who have no desire to contribute to the economy.0 -
Justin Credible Darts wrote: »Therein lies the problem.
The average couple are already at breaking point with childcare fees and other expenses
if one parent stays home then less income, having multiple children these days has never been harder.
Unless of course you are an immigrant where you can avail of many options. or irish dole scum who have no desire to contribute to the economy.
It would take some radical thinking but if any government wanted to make it happen the money could be found to help people. We are a laughing stock worldwide over the amount of money we give to these ngos, especially the ones that dont benefit Irish people in any way shape or form.
Cut the amount of aid we send abroad. This type of stuff wont sit well with the woke left but we need to look after our own people and ensure we have an Irish Ireland to pass on to future generations. It isnt ours to give away.
Or we can keep importing immigrants and turn Dublin and Cork into Birmingham and London.0 -
2020 : 869.87 million
2019 : 791.63 million
Those are our overseas aid spends for those years... mad...0 -
I always get a slight vibe from the 'preservationists' that many of them are the type of Irish people who exhibit a sickly parochial smugness about 'being Irish', an accident of birthplace or antecedents, the sort who'd arrogantly disdain someone like Shane MacGowan or Dermot O'Leary, both of dual Irish parentage as 'not one of us'.
You're not Irish to these people unless you've spent the first 18 years of your life playing for St Colmcilles GAA Club, have an accent that'd take paint off the walls and have your (preferably non-Dublin) birth certificate laminated and framed on the wall.
I bet all these 'new Irish' and 'non-nationals' get right up their noses, ha ha ha.0 -
2.4 million non-EU migrants entered the EU in 2017
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immigration_to_Europe#Immigration_from_outside_Europe_since_the_1980s
well that isnt sustainable whatsoever.
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I don’t think many Irish people have issues with non nationals or new Irish...
They are though beginning to get wide to the fact that services and help when required by Irish taxpayers is often overlooked now...
That will continue to happen with our population growing, courtesy of an influx of people who through the very nature (s) of why they are arriving, require or are asking for help...0 -
Our population of tax payers is too small for the Government to play with the big boys over in Europe so getting a large influx of new tax payers I am sure is seen as beneficial but that is more about immigration and not Multiculturalism.
Personally I want people to come here and mix with the Irish and learn to integrate. Multiculturalism by its nature is the opposite and worst case scenario sees large groups of people moving into one area and treating it like they never left their country which can include all the negative elements of that culture and a disregard for their new host country, These bad elements are usually hidden by unfamiliarity and language barriers so the Irish public are not aware of it. I dislike those singing 'one world' as it is not realistic, We live in a unique country with unique culture/history, people are welcome to add to that culture but also they need to embrace Ireland the way it is.0 -
Chris_Heilong wrote: »Our population of tax payers is too small for the Government to play with the big boys over in Europe so getting a large influx of new tax payers I am sure is seen as beneficial but that is more about immigration and not Multiculturalism.
Personally I want people to come here and mix with the Irish and learn to integrate. Multiculturalism by its nature is the opposite and worst case scenario sees large groups of people moving into one area and treating it like they never left their country which can include all the negative elements of that culture and a disregard for their new host country, These bad elements are usually hidden by unfamiliarity and language barriers so the Irish public are not aware of it. I dislike those singing 'one world' as it is not realistic, We live in a unique country with unique culture/history, people are welcome to add to that culture but also they need to embrace Ireland the way it is.
Its not about extracting taxes. The government doesnt 'need' to extract taxes - they print money. What you're trying to describe as 'tax' is heuristics for productivity - what you actually mean is that Ireland with its small population is not productive enough to compete with any first world nation, and a larger population base, whose productivity is centrally controlled via the euro, will make Ireland a more viable investment for MNCs. Ireland's population is greying. We're losing more to old age and emigration than we can naturally replenish. The central bank has deemed immigration necessary for the country. Mind you the central bank has also stated in no uncertain terms, that they want to reduce house ownership and increase renters - and the 'crisis' we're currently seeing is by design.0 -
Looking at the numbers, 2030-2035 will be the point of no return for Ireland. Something needs to happen soon. We need to stop relying on immigration and start incentivising our own people to have children.
Why?
If we do actually 'need' more people, why would it matter where they are from?
If it's purely a numbers thing, does it matter where those numbers come from?0 -
Looking at the numbers, 2030-2035 will be the point of no return for Ireland. Something needs to happen soon. We need to stop relying on immigration and start incentivising our own people to have children.
That isn't going to happen. Its much cheaper to rely on immigration than invest in a baby ..put it through public school etc for 18 yrs ..then pay for its third year education etc.
Bringing in someone from another country aged 27 where that is all done and they can pay into the tax system is much much cheaper.0 -
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RulesOfNature wrote:Its not about extracting taxes. The government doesnt 'need' to extract taxes - they print money. What you're trying to describe as 'tax' is heuristics for productivity - what you actually mean is that Ireland with its small population is not productive enough to compete with any first world nation, and a larger population base, whose productivity is centrally controlled via the euro, will make Ireland a more viable investment for MNCs. Ireland's population is greying. We're losing more to old age and emigration than we can naturally replenish. The central bank has deemed immigration necessary for the country. Mind you the central bank has also stated in no uncertain terms, that they want to reduce house ownership and increase renters - and the 'crisis' we're currently seeing is by design.
Our housing crisis certainly is by design, but the major problem with it is, our polical institutions haven't realised this yet, and they've been actively encouraging and facilitating it0 -
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I'm not an immigrant.
The exclamation mark you edited out from the end of your sentence tells me it's a touchy subject, I apologise for offending you I thought you had said in another thread you were born elsewhere.
What is your problem with encouraging the Irish people to have children in order to replace ourselves rather than looking for people to come from abroad to fix our declining population.0 -
The exclamation mark you edited out from the end of your sentence tells me it's a touchy subject, I apologise for offending you I thought you had said in another thread you were born elsewhere.
What is your problem with encouraging the Irish people to have children in order to replace ourselves rather than looking for people to come from abroad to fix our declining population.
I was born elsewhere, but I'm not an immigrant, that your bias showing!
I don't have any problem with encouraging Irish people to have kids, what's the problem with other people filling the void, if we need them?0 -
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It doesn't matter to you because you are an immigrant. How many children have you got?
I thought you wanted immigrants to integrate and take part in Irish society.
But yet here you are assuming a poster is an immigrant and telling them to them stay out of Irish matters.
Why would you respond in the manner you did even if bubblypop was an immigrant.0 -
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RobbieTheRobber wrote: »I thought you wanted immigrants to integrate and take part in Irish society. .
Nah, it wasnt me that said that pal.0
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