What are your views on Multiculturalism in Ireland? - Threadbanned User List in OP

DerekC16

DerekC16 wrote: »

Nope not at all.

Ok.
So, if there is a need for a rise in population, why does it matter where those numbers come from?
If we need 20% extra, does it matter if that extra 20% come from Ireland or elsewhere?

DerekC16

DerekC16 wrote: »

Or we can keep importing immigrants and turn Dublin and Cork into Birmingham and London.

What's wrong with Birmingham or London?

DerekC16

bubblypop wrote: »

Ok.
So, if there is a need for a rise in population, why does it matter where those numbers come from?
If we need 20% extra, does it matter if that extra 20% come from Ireland or elsewhere?

It matters to me theres already too many foreigners in Ireland clogging up the housing list. I'd prefer only skilled immigrants to be allowed in.

DerekC16

bubblypop wrote: »

What's wrong with Birmingham or London?

Theyre both ****holes. London in particular has had multiple terrorist attacks and is on constant alert. No thanks.

DerekC16

DerekC16 wrote: »

It matters to me theres already too many foreigners in Ireland clogging up the housing list. I'd prefer only skilled immigrants to be allowed in.

Too many foreigners clogging up the housing lists? For social housing is it?
How many foreigners are on those lists, how does it compare to Irish persons on the lists?
Where are those foreigners from?
What is your definition of a foreigner? Seeing as how you think I'm an immigrant?

Any issue with how many skilled immigrants we allow?

DerekC16

bubblypop wrote: »

Too many foreigners clogging up the housing lists? For social housing is it?
How many foreigners are on those lists, how does it compare to Irish persons on the lists?
Where are those foreigners from?
What is your definition of a foreigner? Seeing as how you think I'm an immigrant?

Any issue with how many skilled immigrants we allow?

Theres a fairly lengthy thread on going at the moment on boards discussing the housing list. Sure have a read through it there. And relax with the questions you arent in an interview room now garda.

DerekC16

DerekC16 wrote: »

Theyre both ****holes. London in particular has had multiple terrorist attacks and is on constant alert. No thanks.

They are great cities and you obviously don't know them well.
Actually, Birmingham is not my favourite place! personal taste.
But London is a great city.

I don't think anyone in Ireland needs to be worried about foreign terror attacks too much, if you don't lose sleep over domestic terror attacks, you don't need to lose sleep over foreign attacks.

DerekC16

DerekC16 wrote: »

Theres a fairly lengthy thread on going at the moment on boards discussing the housing list. Sure have a read through it there. And relax with the questions you arent in an interview room now garda.

If you just can't back up your arguments, that's fair enough

DerekC16

bubblypop wrote: »

If you just can't back up your arguments, that's fair enough

No it's not that, I've seen your style of debating on here, over-emotional stuff and trying to get people banned. I'll pass.

DerekC16

DerekC16 wrote: »

No it's not that, I've seen your style of debating on here, over-emotional stuff and trying to get people banned. I'll pass.

I have asked simple questions, which you will not reply to. I can only assume you cannot back up your responses with any actual evidence.
If you do not have answers, that's fair enough.
Enjoy your day

DerekC16

bubblypop wrote: »

I have asked simple questions, which you will not reply to. I can only assume you cannot back up your responses with any actual evidence.
If you do not have answers, that's fair enough.
Enjoy your day

I've answers alright but not ones you or the boards mods will like so we will leave it there.

DerekC16

DerekC16 wrote: »

I've answers alright but not ones you or the boards mods will like so we will leave it there.

Exactly.

_Kaiser_

Strumms wrote: »

2020 : 869.87 million

2019 : 791.63 million

Those are our overseas aid spends for those years... mad...

I see it's gone up from the 650 million or so that we were still spending during the recession years which was insanity given that we were borrowing to do it and adding massively to the national debt at the time.

791 million during a period of economic stagnation as a result of the pandemic and further massive debt added to the national total, with more pain ahead as we face the bill of the last year is even more ridiculous.

Wanderer78

_Kaiser_ wrote: »

I see it's gone up from the 650 million or so that we were still spending during the recession years which was insanity given that we were borrowing to do it and adding massively to the national debt at the time.

791 million during a period of economic stagnation as a result of the pandemic and further massive debt added to the national total, with more pain ahead as we face the bill of the last year is even more ridiculous.

once again, debt is the money supply, in order to expand our economy, we must also expand the money supply, i.e. increase debt, always baring in mind, reducing debt, reduces the money supply, as the act of paying off debt, is the destruction of money itself

ThunbergsAreGo

bubblypop wrote: »

Ok.
So, if there is a need for a rise in population, why does it matter where those numbers come from?
If we need 20% extra, does it matter if that extra 20% come from Ireland or elsewhere?

Why do we need 20 percent extra?

ThunbergsAreGo

ThunbergsAreGo wrote: »

Why do we need 20 percent extra?

Oh I'm not saying we do, that's just a random number 'if we need'
I have no idea of what numbers increase, if any, we do actually need.

ThunbergsAreGo

bubblypop wrote: »

Oh I'm not saying we do, that's just a random number 'if we need'
I have no idea of what numbers increase, if any, we do actually need.

Maybe that's the first thing to question. Why are we looking to increase our population (and simultaneously reduce our carbon output and solve housing)?

ThunbergsAreGo

ThunbergsAreGo wrote: »

Maybe that's the first thing to question. Why are we looking to increase our population (and simultaneously reduce our carbon output and solve housing)?

Oh for sure, I don't know do we need to increase at all.
But if we do, I don't see how it matters where that increase comes from.

ThunbergsAreGo

bubblypop wrote: »

Oh for sure, I don't know do we need to increase at all.
But if we do, I don't see how it matters where that increase comes from.

But just seems really naive.

First of all does population need to increase? and why?
This question in incredibly important when looking to decide how immigration policy will work.

We need to increase population so people can work in low paid jobs Irish dont want (a stupid reason, but one given by people) is widely different to we need to get skilled workers to attract more multinationals and increase tax take?

And if we do need it, we have a common travel area with hundreds of millions within the EU (over which we have very little control already) and is already massively multicultural.

And before people jump on me that is not attack on any religion, colour, race, sexual preference etc but rather an acknowledgement that our current common travel area is massively multi cultural already (and has its own good and bad points).

Wanderer78

Wanderer78 wrote: »

once again, debt is the money supply, in order to expand our economy, we must also expand the money supply, i.e. increase debt, always baring in mind, reducing debt, reduces the money supply, as the act of paying off debt, is the destruction of money itself

Debt is only part of the money supply for the government, and the economy is not reliant on the government for it to expand. Private business is the core element towards the expansion of the economy (since we're not using State Capitalism), and while debt can play a role in that expansion for these businesses, often it's not.

You're using the logic that politicians and economists have used to justify the increasing use of debt. It's just one theory, and you seem to be combining the economics for both the State and private, when they operate under different constraints. In terms of the State, yes, reducing debt, leads to the removal of money.. but that's not the case with private investment, since private investment can be profitable, and retain the value through investment and growth. Therefore expanding the economy increases taxes, providing the government the means to pay off the interest on debt or the debt amount itself. (If properly managed, which it hasn't been)

There is no requirement for a nation to be in debt, which is what your quoted piece above suggests. Debt beyond a reasonable amount is simply bad management. (Reasonable being that it's repayable easily)

ThunbergsAreGo

ThunbergsAreGo wrote: »

But just seems really naive.

First of all does population need to increase? and why?
This question in incredibly important when looking to decide how immigration policy will work.

We need to increase population so people can work in low paid jobs Irish dont want (a stupid reason, but one given by people) is widely different to we need to get skilled workers to attract more multinationals and increase tax take?

And if we do need it, we have a common travel area with hundreds of millions within the EU (over which we have very little control already) and is already massively multicultural.

And before people jump on me that is not attack on any religion, colour, race, sexual preference etc but rather an acknowledgement that our current common travel area is massively multi cultural already (and has its own good and bad points).

You should add that Europe already has a significant population who are long-term unemployed, and while there are some initiatives to encourage movement of labor, a lot more could be done. There is no need for non-EU immigration to fill low skilled roles, because there's already millions of unemployed within the borders of the EU.

As for a need for the population to increase, we don't. Ireland is not a manufacturing or agricultural based economy. We don't have any significant labor intensive industries for low skilled workers. Our services industry is likely the main target for such workers, but with automation coming into effect, companies will have the option to decrease their need for staff.... and that's without considering the coming recession, which will likely decrease the demand for most such services, leading to a decline in employment. There is a case to be made for immigration of high skilled workers, and I don't think anyone is against that...

The problem with immigration is that it's long term. The goal of the pro-immigration crowd, is not to attract "expats" who stay a few years, and then move on to another country to work. They're not seeking temporary workers who are tied to their visas, and expected to leave once the visa ends. They're seeking people to settle in Ireland, have families, and never leave again.

Where are the jobs for these people? Not lowly paid jobs that barely provide a living... where are the jobs that will provide them with the money to save, and provide a standard of living comparable with the average Irish person?

There is an obligation with this type of immigration, since the objective is to increase the population for the long term. Can this nation provide the opportunities for these people to grow, and remain completely independent of State support? I don't believe it can. A drive through the towns and cities outside of Dublin, and you'll see closed businesses all over the place. The people who were employed previously, do we know that they've all regained work? I doubt it. So, we should increase the demands on the employment market, when we have no assurance that the availability of reliable work will increase?

jmreire

Deleted User wrote: »

You should add that Europe already has a significant population who are long-term unemployed, and while there are some initiatives to encourage movement of labor, a lot more could be done. There is no need for non-EU immigration to fill low skilled roles, because there's already millions of unemployed within the borders of the EU.

As for a need for the population to increase, we don't. Ireland is not a manufacturing or agricultural based economy. We don't have any significant labor intensive industries for low skilled workers. Our services industry is likely the main target for such workers, but with automation coming into effect, companies will have the option to decrease their need for staff.... and that's without considering the coming recession, which will likely decrease the demand for most such services, leading to a decline in employment. There is a case to be made for immigration of high skilled workers, and I don't think anyone is against that...

The problem with immigration is that it's long term. The goal of the pro-immigration crowd, is not to attract "expats" who stay a few years, and then move on to another country to work. They're not seeking temporary workers who are tied to their visas, and expected to leave once the visa ends. They're seeking people to settle in Ireland, have families, and never leave again.

Where are the jobs for these people? Not lowly paid jobs that barely provide a living... where are the jobs that will provide them with the money to save, and provide a standard of living comparable with the average Irish person?

There is an obligation with this type of immigration, since the objective is to increase the population for the long term. Can this nation provide the opportunities for these people to grow, and remain completely independent of State support? I don't believe it can. A drive through the towns and cities outside of Dublin, and you'll see closed businesses all over the place. The people who were employed previously, do we know that they've all regained work? I doubt it. So, we should increase the demands on the employment market, when we have no assurance that the availability of reliable work will increase?

Even now, as the fog of Covid starts to clear, we are going to see a completely different jobs and business landscape emerging. Not to mention the effects of brexit.Talk about a future that can best be described as"Uncertain". And the last thing that is needed in the world at the present time is population increase. The world itself cannot cope, as climate change is showing. We have a managable population level here, and thats the way it should be kept. I was in Pakistan for awhile, and its a lesson in the effects rapid population increase..1947, POP @ 33.7 Million, 2019 census 201.6 Million. I remember driving in a rural area, with massive big fields, and maybe 100 people harvesting the crop by hand with sickles.I remember saying to a colleague that if Pakistan wishes to feed its people, they will really have to modernise farming, that here in Ireland we had machines that would harvest a huge field like this in a day. And his reply? If we do that, how will these people live ??? And that is a snapshot what over population means.

jmreire

jmreire wrote: »

Even now, as the fog of Covid starts to clear, we are going to see a completely different jobs and business landscape emerging. Not to mention the effects of brexit.Talk about a future that can best be described as"Uncertain". And the last thing that is needed in the world at the present time is population increase. The world itself cannot cope, as climate change is showing. We have a managable population level here, and thats the way it should be kept. I was in Pakistan for awhile, and its a lesson in the effects rapid population increase..1947, POP @ 33.7 Million, 2019 census 201.6 Million. I remember driving in a rural area, with massive big fields, and maybe 100 people harvesting the crop by hand with sickles.I remember saying to a colleague that if Pakistan wishes to feed its people, they will really have to modernise farming, that here in Ireland we had machines that would harvest a huge field like this in a day. And his reply? If we do that, how will these people live ??? And that is a snapshot what over population means.

It's a hearkening to the days of State Capitalism, and the Communist system, of the State creating "businesses" whose sole purpose is to employ people. Not to be efficient. Not to be profitable. Just to employ as many people as possible, so that it lowers unrest, and provides some stable income for the majority of people. I suspect it's why the public service in Ireland has grown so much over the last few decades.. the desire to employ people and decrease the unemployment rates (political statements). Except the public service doesn't add much to the economy for growth, and over time, tends to become more expensive rather than more efficient, while also removing educated/skilled labor from the private sector, and so stifling growth of new business (since SMEs are incredibly important for countries the size of Ireland, although the government has little interest in them)

Over time, with an increased population, we'll see the middle class shrink dramatically, with a greater amount of people being termed as working class, simply because it will be so expensive to live, and greater dependence on the State to provide... It's utterly suicidal, and just shows the degree of short-term thinking our politicians (and public servants) apply, while also ignoring the lessons shown in other countries.

Absolute nail on the head klaz and jmreire
With the money printing and ever growing debts the only way to keep a handle on it, from a government's perspective is to have more taxpayers. Gdp is increased as more people = more economic activity - in theory. In practice gdp per capita adjusted in real terms for inflation is a truer measure. Ireland has been lucky so far that the multinationals have aided the recovery.

The economics of the 19 & 20th centuries are gone. The number of people on a factory floor is not the limiting factor anymore. It hasn't been that way for a while. Productivity is what grows our economies.

Think of gdp as the pie, gdp per capita is the slice of the pie attributed to you. Add more people and your slice decreases.

This'll happen over time gradually, eroding the middle classes. It's already happening through housing.

As for London and Birmingham, it's really a matter of taste. I will say that Ireland, being geographically smaller means that a bigger Dublin would dominate the country in many ways. Rural house prices would get even worse

And yes it matters where the population growth comes from because if the locals aren't replacing themselves then something is very wrong with the system. Replacement is about all we should look for too, simply from an environmental view. That doesn't mean there shouldn't be any migration, but possibly limits on visas based on our own emigration numbers.

Bear in mind also that many of our emigrants are skilled, do we want a system that replaces our skilled people with unskilled? Over the long run that itself decreases the middle classes

Strumms

The economic activity we need to concern ourselves with is output vs input...

If we are spending to support new arrivals and that is eating into the resources that are being earned through people’s income and other taxes ? as they are in a BIG way..

It’s only a matter of time before taxes are increased to ensure we can pay for and maintain services...never mind improving services for taxpayers that won’t happen now.

So we are all going to end up with a couple of percent more across the board in income tax, all be less well off, all because we have a bill not of our asking, not of our desiring..

But the extra Gardai, doctors, nurses, buses, bus drivers, ancillary staff, admin staff, accommodation, insurance ... all needs to be paid for. By us, the Irish citizens... I don’t believe that is fair.

Irish people need support for their wellbeing, enjoyment of life, financial security... that gets threatened by immigration, not acceptable.

On Monday, the New Zealand government announced it would be narrowing pathways for those hoping to migrate and work in the country, particularly those it classed as “low-skill” and low-wage workers. It simultaneously announced new measures to attract rich investors.

“When our borders fully open again, we can’t afford to simply turn on the tap to the previous immigration settings,” the tourism minister, Stuart Nash, said in a speech on Monday evening, which signalled sweeping changes ahead for immigration.

They are copping on, time we did too. Plenty of similarities, island nation included. Being taken for a ride included.

Justin Credible Darts

as mentioned all these immigrants have to be housed.
There are Irish people on the housing list over a decade , yet people from outside ireland not on the list a third as long, are being housed before them.

And they wonder why some people are fully against this immigration.

As for the number of children, its not a case of encouraging more irish to have kids, its more a case of encouraging every person on the planet to have less kids, the world is already over populated.

Sadler Peak

Justin Credible Darts wrote: »

its more a case of encouraging every person on the planet to have less kids, the world is already over populated.

Say that about Africa and you will be called a racist.

yaknowski

Sinn Féin laying their stall out.

https://www.anphoblacht.com/contents/28018

Strumms

yaknowski wrote: »

Sinn Féin laying their stall out.

https://www.anphoblacht.com/contents/28018

Simply they are trying to attract a new voter base, they have zero chance of ever being in power but in years to come if they attract a new demographic of voter outside the ‘ usual’

Kermit.de.frog

yaknowski wrote: »

Sinn Féin laying their stall out.

https://www.anphoblacht.com/contents/28018

What does the average ra head think about this? Wouldn't strike me as being their gig, quite the opposite!