What are your views on Multiculturalism in Ireland? - Threadbanned User List in OP

Strumms

RobbieTheRobber wrote: »

Tallaght was a lovely little country village before all the social housing.
Jobstown would have been positively picturesque before they built the houses I can only imagine.
Wait what was the point of this again.

Social housing was added in Tallaght, because Irish taxpayers required it... they also paid for it.

RobbieTheRobber

WrenBoy wrote: »

I think to highlight how pumping up population numbers through lax immigration standards is doing more harm than good in terms of our housing crisis.

Haha that's not what the poster was implying in the slightest.
Sarcasm detectors engaged.

RobbieTheRobber

Strumms wrote: »

Social housing was added in Tallaght, because Irish taxpayers required it... they also paid for it.

How do people on social housing lists pay for it exactly Strumms?

jmreire

bubblypop wrote: »

Yep, the answer to racism is to keep all different races and cultures away from each other.
Yep. That's it! Genius.

Nope, they will do it themselves...they will form their own "enclaves" whereever and when ever possible. And historically, this is what has happened in other Country's too.

Strumms

RobbieTheRobber wrote: »

How do people on social housing lists pay for it exactly Strumms?

They pay taxes, on their purchases, on any income they may have had....

That ALL goes into paying for things such as building social housing. :eek:

kildare lad

Swindled wrote: »

Unforteunely Rochdale's, Brixton's and Bradford's are much more like the destination planned for most of Ireland's cities. They will never be new Londons/New Yorks. The ethnic Irish are a tiny population by international standards. The terms Irish and Ireland are now meaningless cheap brand names.

As Pat Kenny recently let slip "Balbriggan is the template for Ireland", and they have poured millions of funding into the Balbriggan template model.

Is that the same balbriggan where a couple of hundred locals protested at the gardai station to do something about the amount of crime and anti social behavior going on in the town ??

Strumms

kildare lad wrote: »

Is that the same balbriggan where a couple of hundred locals protested at the gardai station to do something about the amount of crime and anti social behavior going on in the town ??

Same Balbriggan my cousin is absolutely desperate to escape from, even to the point of taking a hit, financially... she lives in a gorgeous estate but the amount of crime is dispiriting... it’s dangerous and intimidating.

Swindled

RobbieTheRobber wrote: »

Tallaght was a lovely little country village before all the social housing.
Jobstown would have been positively picturesque before they built the houses I can only imagine.
Wait what was the point of this again.

Balbriggan isn't working any better Robbie, let's not pretend it is, or pretend it's the fault of people living in Balbriggan. The local governance and planning here is non existent, it's just mass enclaving/silos, and that's what happens everywhere in every country instead of actual integration when the mass migration numbers are too high, actual integration becomes impossible. You just have independent ethnic groups within one "country". If places like Balbriggan and Ballyhaunis are the "template for Ireland" as as the establishment claim, we are heading for a very broken country, and another UK/France style mess.

RobbieTheRobber

RobbieTheRobber wrote: »

Klaz anti means opposed to.

By holding a position that you are against most immigration you are by default anti immigration. I did not say the majority of posters were racist.
I said anti immigrant and I stand by that view.

This is pure deflection. (and more shifting goalposts)

Especially, since I've never said that I was against most immigration..

If a person is opposed to immigration they are by the very definition of the word anti-immigrant.

Black/white. Yes/No. Zero space for nuance. Each time I've pointed out a qualifier, you've come back with an absolute, ignoring the qualifier. Unless it suited your own statements.

Wibbs

RobbieTheRobber wrote: »

Is it silly, surely you would have to agree that racist beliefs in Ireland have actually reduced in Ireland in the period during which we have had the highest foreign immigration in our history. So racism can be reduced, it can be educated against and legislated against.

Actually I wouldn't agree it's been reduced. Not by any more than it was on the way to being reduced before the main influx in the Celtic Tiger. And if "racism can be reduced, it can be educated against and legislated against" why is it still such a big problem in the UK, France, Italy, Germany, Spain, The US and so forth? Nations that have had government campaigns, education and legislation for decades.

Who is pro multicultural and what does it mean?

I would like many people in this thread be in support of a stricter immigration policy but the difference is I do not lay the blame for all Irelands social ill at the feet of immigrants.

Neither do I. I lay what blame there is on the multicultural politic itself. It has proven to be at best a mixed bag, at worst a source of often serious social issues in urban areas, not least for the immigrant populations themselves.

But I also am optimistic for Irelands future. I have multiracial Irish children and do not feel they are to blame for any of Irelands problems nor is their mother a non Irish resident to blame. I don't believe my children are less Irish like many posters in this thread have stated they are.
I have formed relationships both personal and professional with non national residents and I personally believe these relationships are positive.

Have all or the vast majority of your experiences with foreign born residents being negative?

Good for you, but nope. 'Fraid not. About the same as native Irish people. Good friends of mine are married to non nationals(from first world countries), two here, two overseas and many of my exes weren't Irish. Of those who have kids they consider them as from both cultures and ethnicities, they all speak their respective native languages and have contacts with their non Irish cultures. None would consider themselves Irish in block capitals and as a stance. Rightfully so. If I married a French woman, moved to France gained citizenship and had kids I'd consider them Irish French. And I most certainly wouldn't consider myself French.

Actually poor white Britons are struggling more in educational attainment anyway.
https://www.bbc.com/news/education-55804123

Big shock. Hold the presses! Poor working class kids less likely to go to university. Must be a sudden change that. In other news; water is wet. Again, who is more likely to be undereducated, in receipt of social welfare, in gaol, in poverty; a White [insert multicultural nationality here] or a Black [insert multicultural nationality here]? Please point to one multicultural nation where this pattern doesn't play out. Just one will do. I'll save you the looking, you can't. If all this was so easy to reduce, educate and legislate for, why are there near zero examples where it works?

And again, all nations have social problems and people who are left behind. Adding in multiculturalism increases that and increases other different social problems on top. A White say doctor who is only two generations away from poverty has moved up, he fits in, a Black doctor could come from a solidly middle class background, but he's still Black. That makes a difference. Sadly, but true too.

Ireland is consistently ranked very high in all those surveys of best countries to live. So what is the evidence for decades of bad management you speak of?

Ireland has had and continues to have huge holes in management and not just around this subject. To believe otherwise is naive at best, deliberately fanciful at worst. Direct provision. Bad management. Tracing of illegals. Bad management. Birthright passports. Bad management. The rapid development of ethnic enclaves. Bad management. The current fast track to social welfare and housing, with other government depts stating it won't be workable. Bad management. The amnesty for existing tax evading illegals and their Irish enablers. Bad management.

Ireland's growth in those rankings is down to a massive influx of non native big businesses, mostly American, that pulled us out of the doldrums of the earlier stages of our independent history. The EU helped a lot too. All of which were in play by the mid 90's, before the peak of the influx of non EU and EU migrants.

kildare lad

Strumms wrote: »

Same Balbriggan my cousin is absolutely desperate to escape from, even to the point of taking a hit, financially... she lives in a gorgeous estate but the amount of crime is dispiriting... it’s dangerous and intimidating.

Maybe Pat Kenny would be interested in a swap...lol

Swindled

kildare lad wrote: »

Maybe Pat Kenny would be interested in a swap...lol

Pat is too busy objecting to even a nursing home being built in Dalkey.
https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/pat-kenny-objection-to-dalkey-nursing-home-planning-application-successful-1.4508517

You can be sure the likes of Pat "Ballbriggan is the template for Ireland" Kenny and their type that like promoting it as the "template" would never actually live there, or let their family live there, in a million years.

I wonder why Pat does not say "Dalkey should be the template for Ireland" ?

Wibbs

Swindled wrote: »

that's what happens everywhere in every country instead of actual integration when the mass migration numbers are too high, actual integration becomes impossible. You just have independent ethnic groups within one "country".

Quite simply because of human nature. Human nature doesn't respond too well to any ideals or social engineering that doesn't fit it. Never has. Never will. It's one of the lies of multiculturalism that it can. Indeed such demographic shifts in an area illustrate how fanciful multiculturalism is. People prefer to be around those most like them. This is fundamental human nature. And fair enough. Those from a similar background, culture, "race" and usually creed. Often even economic differences are lower down on the list. These subcultures organically form into enclaves once a certain population size is achieved. The more outwardly different the incoming people are the more likely and more rapidly these areas will form. It is found everywhere you care to look in "multicultural" societies. Go to any such society and ask a local where the [insert minority here] live and they'll be able to tell you. You may find a Little Italy, a Spanish quarter, a Chinatown, the Jewish area, the Russian, the African/Black, the Irish and so on. You quite simply can't legislate against that, unless you have a housing commission that decides from on high who lives where.

Cordell

Cordell wrote: »

I oppose large scale immigration while being an immigrant myself. How about that?
And in general, is it anything wrong with being anti-immigration?

I think being an immigrant against immigration is hypocritical, why shouldn't others benefit the same way you did?
Also, it doesn't make one right, it's like council housing tenants voting against further council housing.

jmreire

jmreire wrote: »

Nope, they will do it themselves...they will form their own "enclaves" whereever and when ever possible. And historically, this is what has happened in other Country's too.

It is. And I have seen it myself, when living overseas, people from the same countries tend to meet up in groups when living in different countries.
I don't see any problem with that, why shouldn't they?

Swindled

Wibbs wrote: »

Quite simply because of human nature. Human nature doesn't respond too well to any ideals or social engineering that doesn't fit it. Never has. Never will. It's one of the lies of multiculturalism that it can. Indeed such demographic shifts in an area illustrate how fanciful multiculturalism is. People prefer to be around those most like them. This is fundamental human nature. And fair enough. Those from a similar background, culture, "race" and usually creed. Often even economic differences are lower down on the list. These subcultures organically form into enclaves once a certain population size is achieved. The more outwardly different the incoming people are the more likely and more rapidly these areas will form. It is found everywhere you care to look in "multicultural" societies. Go to any such society and ask a local where the [insert minority here] live and they'll be able to tell you. You may find a Little Italy, a Spanish quarter, a Chinatown, the Jewish area, the Russian, the African/Black, the Irish and so on. You quite simply can't legislate against that, unless you have a housing commission that decides from on high who lives where.

This is my point, so why are we doing that in Ireland, instead of a gradual natural integration ?

Tony EH

Cordell wrote: »

I oppose large scale immigration while being an immigrant myself. How about that?
And in general, is it anything wrong with being anti-immigration?

Well for a start it stinks of "I'm alright Jack" and pulling the ladder up, which is never going to win you too much agreement. You've been able to reap the reward of something that you now want to deny others.

And you don't see anything "wrong" there?

Immigration is fine, in general, when it is controlled. However, the salient point is that a country is able to deal with it's inward migration to a relatively comfortable degree and, quite clearly, Ireland isn't in that position. We are having numerous crises at present, the top of which is the housing crisis for which there seems to be no interest from our political class to do anything about. There's a zero housing plan in effect and no desire to create one that's socially conducive to enabling the people of this country to be housed.

Increasing the population of the country, whether that's by immigration or indigenous births, is simply a fool's game so long as we have he situations we have in the country at present. A situation whereby an entire generation cannot buy a home or rent a place with anything approaching a comfortable level of payment or tenancy security.

I've said it before on another thread, but before we can start bringing in loads of people to live here, we need to seriously change how we live. Because if we don't we really are setting ourselves up for huge difficulties in the next 20 or 30 years.

Cordell

bubblypop wrote: »

I think being an immigrant against immigration is hypocritical, why shouldn't others benefit the same way you did?
Also, it doesn't make one right, it's like council housing tenants voting against further council housing.

Let me explain myself then. You conveniently missed the large scale attribute of my anti-immigration stance. If everyone is to benefit as myself did there will be no large scale immigration, only a small sustainable level. Then, I came here because I liked what I found here, I don't want to see the changes other European countries did, after all I have chosen Ireland, not Poland or Dubai. I had a wtf where did I land moment when in an estate in Galway the only English speaking people were obviously of non European origin.

In the end I don't have any power to effect any change, but I'm very open to speak my mind, at least here

Strumms

RobbieTheRobber wrote: »

Klaz anti means opposed to.




By holding a position that you are against most immigration you are by default anti immigration. I did not say the majority of posters were racist.
I said anti immigrant and I stand by that view. If a person is opposed to immigration they are by the very definition of the word anti-immigrant.

Incorrect.

People are just anti uncontrollable immigration...

They want the ability to limit, facilitate as and when we can and is appropriate for this country and it’s citizens.

Ireland is our home.... speaking of home...My front door gets opened and a certain number of people can visit, I decide who comes and when... I will also determine what hospitality and generosity they receive... for how long too..

We need to be of the same ability as regards immigration...

Justin Credible Darts

RobbieTheRobber wrote: »

Have you proved that monoculturalism is better?
I must have missed that part

Is North Korea a good example of the benefits of mono culture.

Do you consider Ireland currently to be a mono culture and if not how do aspire to make Ireland a monoculture?

wow, you picked the worst example you could pick as your reasoning, and then wonder why your opinuion holds no weight.


so in your mind us stopping immigrants would be like north korea.


**shakes head**

Justin Credible Darts

bubblypop wrote: »

Yep, the answer to racism is to keep all different races and cultures away from each other.
Yep. That's it! Genius.

so let me get this right you in your infinite wisdom think the answer to racism is put all people together ?


How exactly would that stop a racist from being racist ? enlighten me !
Is racism now gone from prisons for example now people are all put in together ?

Will the mindset of a racist suddenly change when people were bunched together in your thinking ?

Bobblehats

bubblypop wrote: »

I think being an immigrant against immigration is hypocritical, why shouldn't others benefit the same way you did?

I’d imagine the concept of racists against racism would make your head explode

Seriously though you’re in favour of more immigrnts; whom you’d expect to be in favour of more immigration? Honestly where does it end.

Swindled

Tony EH wrote: »

Well for a start it stinks of "I'm alright Jack" and pulling the ladder up, which is never going to win you too much agreement. You've been able to reap the reward of something that you now want to deny others.

Actually it doesn't, it's simply the reality of first come, first served, where resources are finite, not infinite. Sensible immigrants to Ireland know mass immigration into Ireland won't work, and nothing wrong with that point of view.

Cordell

Cordell wrote: »

Let me explain myself then. You conveniently missed the large scale attribute of my anti-immigration stance. If everyone is to benefit as myself did there will be no large scale immigration, only a small sustainable level. Then, I came here because I liked what I found here, I don't want to see the changes other European countries did, after all I have chosen Ireland, not Poland or Dubai. I had a wtf where did I land moment when in an estate in Galway the only English speaking people were obviously of non European origin.

In the end I don't have any power to effect any change, but I'm very open to speak my mind, at least here

You liked what you saw and chose to live here?
But you wouldn't allow others to have that same option?

Tony EH

Swindled wrote: »

Actually it doesn't, it's simply the reality of first come, first served, where resources are finite, not infinite. Sensible immigrants to Ireland know mass immigration into Ireland won't work, and nothing wrong with that point of view.

I'm sure you'd be so understanding if it was you who were being locked out.

Strumms

Strumms wrote: »

Incorrect.

People are just anti uncontrollable immigration...

They want the ability to limit, facilitate as and when we can and is appropriate for this country and it’s citizens.

Ireland is our home.... speaking of home...My front door gets opened and a certain number of people can visit, I decide who comes and when... I will also determine what hospitality and generosity they receive... for how long too..

We need to be of the same ability as regards immigration...

Lucky for you we have controlled immigration so.
Except for EU members, as many as they want can come live here.

Wibbs

Swindled wrote: »

This is my point, so why are we doing that in Ireland, instead of a gradual natural integration ?

Because IMHO it can't be done. At least not when populations reach a certain size. People will naturally tend to drift towards those most similar to them. No matter what any government would do the same thing will play out, short of actively limiting people's accommodation choices.

Cordell

bubblypop wrote: »

You liked what you saw and chose to live here?
But you wouldn't allow others to have that same option?

Others like me, sure.
But what we're getting is mostly nothing like me

Cordell

Cordell wrote: »

Others like me, sure.
But what we're getting is mostly nothing like me

Oh right, and what is it that makes you better then other people?

RobbieTheRobber

Wibbs wrote: »

Actually I wouldn't agree it's been reduced. Not by any more than it was on the way to being reduced before the main influx in the Celtic Tiger. And if "racism can be reduced, it can be educated against and legislated against" why is it still such a big problem in the UK, France, Italy, Germany, Spain, The US and so forth? Nations that have had government campaigns, education and legislation for decades.

I mean from what point in history would you say racism is getting worse in the world. Is racism as allowed and present in America as before the civil rights movement. Is the United kingdom more racist than the period from the 60s to 80s?

What metric are using to say racism is worse in the world today than at some other point and what point in time?

Wibbs wrote: »

Neither do I. I lay what blame there is on the multicultural politic itself. It has proven to be at best a mixed bag, at worst a source of often serious social issues in urban areas, not least for the immigrant populations themselves.

We are talking about multicultiurism in Ireland and you want to blame "multicultural politic". Can you give me a bit more details what you mean here because I don't have a clue what this alludes to.
Since the creation of this state two political parties have held power between as the major in government. So if you want to blame someone surely there is some real political entity you can hold responsible for the decisions that got Irish society to its current place that you dislike so much.

Wibbs wrote: »

Good for you, but nope. 'Fraid not. About the same as native Irish people. Good friends of mine are married to non nationals(from first world countries), two here, two overseas and many of my exes weren't Irish. Of those who have kids they consider them as from both cultures and ethnicities, they all speak their respective native languages and have contacts with their non Irish cultures.

So you post that immigrants are a negative to Ireland but your actual experiences don't hold that they are all negative.

Wibbs wrote: »

None would consider themselves Irish in block capitals and as a stance. Rightfully so. If I married a French woman, moved to France gained citizenship and had kids I'd consider them Irish French. And I most certainly wouldn't consider myself French.

Just as well I didn't type anything in block capitals then isn't it.
But look I don't care what you would think about your imaginary children and what imaginary nationality you would ascribe to them. I am telling you my children are Irish, it is a fact and supported by the constitution. And If my wife chooses to take Irish citizenship in the future she too will be Irish at the time her citizenship is approved by the state.

Wibbs wrote: »

Big shock. Hold the presses! Poor working class kids less likely to go to university. Must be a sudden change that. In other news; water is wet. Again, who is more likely to be undereducated, in receipt of social welfare, in gaol, in poverty; a White [insert multicultural nationality here] or a Black [insert multicultural nationality here]? Please point to one multicultural nation where this pattern doesn't play out. Just one will do. I'll save you the looking, you can't. If all this was so easy to reduce, educate and legislate for, why are there near zero examples where it works?

The real answer is the poorer members of society will be more likely to commit crime and go to jail.

Wibbs wrote: »

And again, all nations have social problems and people who are left behind. Adding in multiculturalism increases that and increases other different social problems on top. A White say doctor who is only two generations away from poverty has moved up, he fits in, a Black doctor could come from a solidly middle class background, but he's still Black. That makes a difference. Sadly, but true too.

It makes no difference to me. Does being seen by a black doctor make a difference to you?
Should we as individuals support the idea that a black doctor practising in Ireland is wrong?

Wibbs wrote: »

Ireland has had and continues to have huge holes in management and not just around this subject. To believe otherwise is naive at best, deliberately fanciful at worst. Direct provision. Bad management. Tracing of illegals. Bad management. Birthright passports. Bad management. The rapid development of ethnic enclaves. Bad management. The current fast track to social welfare and housing, with other government depts stating it won't be workable. Bad management. The amnesty for existing tax evading illegals and their Irish enablers. Bad management.

I disagree on the systemic mismanagement idea but even if I did who is to blame for this is it multicultural politic again, or the political entities that held power?

Wibbs wrote: »

Ireland's growth in those rankings is down to a massive influx of non native big businesses, mostly American, that pulled us out of the doldrums of the earlier stages of our independent history. The EU helped a lot too. All of which were in play by the mid 90's, before the peak of the influx of non EU and EU migrants.

Americans and the EU saved us you say but that sounds almost multicultural.