What are your views on Multiculturalism in Ireland? - Threadbanned User List in OP

Justin Credible Darts

Tony EH wrote: »

Something I've never said.

I am glad you agree then we should be selective who we leave in.

Tony EH

Swindled wrote: »

Actually you are missing the point.
If there are X genuine sustainable places available, and some else gets in there before you, that is indeed perfectly ok.

There's a certain number of VISA's available in any country, and that country gets to dictate the number available, not the applicants. I rightly don't dictate how many Visas should be available for me in the countries I would like to live and work in, and how long they should be open for. Nor do I demand they should provide me with housing ahead of their own citizens. Their country, their rules, and rightly so.

I'll try one more time.

It's the ATTITUDE of someone that gets something and then declares that someone else cannot have that that I would consider to be a questionable one. Hence the pull the ladder up comment.

I am not talking about specific limitations of immigration policy, or capacity issues, or stadium counts.

Tony EH

Justin Credible Darts wrote: »

I am glad you agree then we should be selective who we leave in.

Maybe you should actually read the original post #7928 before commenting any further.

nolivesmatter

Tony EH wrote: »

I'm sure you'd be so understanding if it was you who were being locked out.

Probably not. But if you're relying on the people on the outside trying to get in to make the pragmatic decision we'd all end up worse off.

enricoh

Justin Credible Darts wrote: »

exactly, who is going to pay for all these immigrants houses ?
Why should immigrants come here and get housed quicker than irish people who have paid into the system longer. ?


If an Irish person ten years on the housing list sees an immigrant get housed after 2 years is he not going to be more anti immigration and maybe even more racist ?


how is that a good thing ?

2 years is unacceptable for for asylum seekers apparently.
Whether bogus or legit the minister over direct provision wants them getting the keys to their own gaff after 4 months!
Only 12% of under 40's in Ireland own their own gaff, paddies kids can sod off across the globe when Corona's over!

Wibbs

RobbieTheRobber wrote: »

I mean from what point in history would you say racism is getting worse in the world. Is racism as allowed and present in America as before the civil rights movement. Is the United kingdom more racist than the period from the 60s to 80s?

Apparently neither are so great, but again you seem to have missed the BLM aggro in western nations, where those of colour are quite clear in describing the BS they've been fed in these "melting pots", the increasingly fractious relations between immigrants and natives in Sweden, Germany, France, Holland and so forth. With an attendant rise in popularity of more right wing politics and even non right wing parties calling for less multiculturalism and migration. Yeah, clearly it's improving...

We are talking about multicultiurism in Ireland and you want to blame "multicultural politic". Can you give me a bit more details what you mean here because I don't have a clue what this alludes to.
Since the creation of this state two political parties have held power between as the major in government. So if you want to blame someone surely there is some real political entity you can hold responsible for the decisions that got Irish society to its current place that you dislike so much.

You seem to feel the need to have someone apportion blame. Maybe it's some projection on your point, or rather you've already made up your mind and expect to read what you want to read.

So you post that immigrants are a negative to Ireland but your actual experiences don't hold that they are all negative.

I don't know why you're feigning confusion. At least I hope you're feigning it. Immigration in a controlled and small number manner can work well enough. Add a bit of seasoning as it were. Dumping an entire salt cellar over a meal, not so much. 1 in 5 over 20 years, with enclaves already forming and higher levels of social services requirements and lower rates of economic activity and at least 20,000 illegal immigrants on top is more than a pinch of salt.

Just as well I didn't type anything in block capitals then isn't it.

Apologies, I meant to write bold type.

But look I don't care what you would think about your imaginary children and what imaginary nationality you would ascribe to them. I am telling you my children are Irish, it is a fact and supported by the constitution. And If my wife chooses to take Irish citizenship in the future she too will be Irish at the time her citizenship is approved by the state.

If you secured a Liberian passport, it wouldn't make you Liberian. On paper yes, in reality no. I can elect to change my gender legally if I choose to and if I did it would be polite of others to address me as my new gender, but it would not make me a woman. And if you want to use the law as a yardstick for reality, I suggest you research the history of laws and how many stupid ones existed and exist today in many jurisdictions. Ireland is not a colony like America, where one could become American from the foundation of that state and culture, by swearing allegiance to same and getting a piece of paper. It comes from a very different origin and culture around nationality. This "my passport makes me Irish" is a recent development. Oh and I would extend that to those who claim to be because one great grandparent or whatever was from Gweedore.

The real answer is the poorer members of society will be more likely to commit crime and go to jail.

You're avoiding my question like the plague. OK then why are the "poorer members of society" more likely to be people of colour(save for East Asians and Indians of course) in these multicultural paradises?

It makes no difference to me. Does being seen by a black doctor make a difference to you?
Should we as individuals support the idea that a black doctor practising in Ireland is wrong?

Reality Versus Hopeful fantasy. Pick one. Maybe ask a Black doctor? I am quite sure they'll have too many examples of where it did make a difference.

Americans and the EU saved us you say but that sounds almost multicultural.

I'm typing this on a Chinese made American designed laptop. It makes me neither Chinese nor American.

RobbieTheRobber wrote: »

Education and Legislation those are the tools of the state to fight racism.

And again please show us all the great examples of where it has worked so well?

Fandymo wrote: »

If multiculturalism is so great, why aren’t the looney left pushing it on countries with little to no other ethnic cultures?

It's not the "looney(sic) left", right wing capitalists are also pretty gung ho for "open borders", for different reasons. It's a mash up of the failures of multiculturalism in European ex colonies so they promoted the notion of "diversity is our strength" as a sop to those most affected by it, with a large helping of post WW2 European paranoia about the dangers of nationalism and a need for cheap workers and more consumers in declining populations, with a dash of a quite welcome swing back from more overt racism in the past(though that has swung the other way with some and in the oppressor/oppressed stakes White, nominally "christian" and "European" is top of the heap in the oppressor role).

ThunbergsAreGo

enricoh wrote: »

Only 12% of under 40's in Ireland own their own gaff, paddies kids can sod off across the globe when Corona's over!

And they will... In their droves

RobbieTheRobber

Wibbs wrote: »

Apparently neither are so great, but again you seem to have missed the BLM aggro in western nations, where those of colour are quite clear in describing the BS they've been fed in these "melting pots", the increasingly fractious relations between immigrants and natives in Sweden, Germany, France, Holland and so forth. With an attendant rise in popularity of more right wing politics and even non right wing parties calling for less multiculturalism and migration. Yeah, clearly it's improving...

Just because BLM are campaigning for more fairness in relation to how police treat black Americans does not negate the progress made. From where America was with segregation prior to the civil rights movement to where it is now is progress. It may not be enough or fast enough but it is most certainly progress.

Wibbs wrote: »

You seem to feel the need to have someone apportion blame. Maybe it's some projection on your point, or rather you've already made up your mind and expect to read what you want to read.

It was you you used the term blame, you who blamed it on Multicultural politic. Not me. So don't go passing off your need to assign blame on me. I just suggested that rather than blame it on something wishy washy like "multicultural politic" why not blame serving governments during the periods you claim the government created the mess we are now in. Below is the portion I previously responded to where you lay the blame.

Wibbs wrote: »

Neither do I. I lay what blame there is on the multicultural politic itself. It has proven to be at best a mixed bag, at worst a source of often serious social issues in urban areas, not least for the immigrant populations themselves.

Wibbs wrote: »

I don't know why you're feigning confusion. At least I hope you're feigning it. Immigration in a controlled and small number manner can work well enough. Add a bit of seasoning as it were. Dumping an entire salt cellar over a meal, not so much. 1 in 5 over 20 years, with enclaves already forming and higher levels of social services requirements and lower rates of economic activity and at least 20,000 illegal immigrants on top is more than a pinch of salt.

We have controlled immigration excluding the EU27 nations!

Wibbs wrote: »

Apologies, I meant to write bold type.
If you secured a Liberian passport, it wouldn't make you Liberian. On paper yes, in reality no. I can elect to change my gender legally if I choose to and if I did it would be polite of others to address me as my new gender, but it would not make me a woman. And if you want to use the law as a yardstick for reality, I suggest you research the history of laws and how many stupid ones existed and exist today in many jurisdictions. Ireland is not a colony like America, where one could become American from the foundation of that state and culture, by swearing allegiance to same and getting a piece of paper. It comes from a very different origin and culture around nationality. This "my passport makes me Irish" is a recent development. Oh and I would extend that to those who claim to be because one great grandparent or whatever was from Gweedore.

Ah for beep sake Wibbs for someone who keeps harking on about the sanctity of the Twenty-seventh Amendment of the Constitution of Ireland and how powerfully it was backed by the people, I would have thought you would have read that amendment and understand what it means for Ireland and Nationality. My children by virtue of my right as a citizen are Irish citizens in their own right. This is a fact not up for debate or more of your waffle.
And what do we call the citizens of Ireland wibbs?

Wibbs wrote: »

You're avoiding my question like the plague. OK then why are the "poorer members of society" more likely to be people of colour(save for East Asians and Indians of course) in these multicultural paradises?

Are you really asking why immigrants would tend to be less well off than the country they are immigrating to. Really do you think many people immigrate to poorer countries?

Wibbs wrote: »

Reality Versus Hopeful fantasy. Pick one. Maybe ask a Black doctor? I am quite sure they'll have too many examples of where it did make a difference.
I'm typing this on a Chinese made American designed laptop. It makes me neither Chinese nor American.

And again please show us all the great examples of where it has worked so well?

I don't want to ask a black doctor I'm asking you. Does it make a difference to you if your doctor is Irish or not, Black or White?

Swindled

Tony EH wrote: »

I'll try one more time.

It's the ATTITUDE of someone that gets something and then declares that someone else cannot have that that I would consider to be a questionable one. Hence the pull the ladder up comment.

I am not talking about specific limitations of immigration policy, or capacity issues, or stadium counts.

Ironic . . guess we should only allow immigrants and cultures with an attitude that complies with yours ?

Swindled

RobbieTheRobber wrote: »

Does it make a difference to you if your doctor is Irish or not, Black or White?

That depends.

Skin colour, eye colour or hair colour . . could not care less.

Fully able to trace and verify their qualifications, training, and medial record and experience, yes of course. The HSE has employed many bogus and struck off foreign Doctors over the years. Every few years another case pops up. The HSE vetting process and their ability and competency to fully trace a doctors records and verify their identity from some countries is extremely questionable. Able to converse well in English, and have a decent conversation / beside manner . . .yes of course. Long term invested connection with the people, community, culture and ethnicity rather than just there for the money . . . yes of course. I also find highly questionable that a first world country like Ireland is allegedly not capable of producing enough of its own Doctors, and yet so many young Irish Doctors choose to emigrate ? I also wonder why we are taking Doctors away from countries that badly need their own ?

Wibbs

RobbieTheRobber wrote: »

Just because BLM are campaigning for more fairness in relation to how police treat black Americans does not negate the progress made. From where America was with segregation prior to the civil rights movement to where it is now is progress. It may not be enough or fast enough but it is most certainly progress.

Fairness? Ok... And yet which demographics are likely to be still at the bottom? Again please point me to ANY nation where the same narratives don't play out.

We have controlled immigration excluding the EU27 nations!

Where did the near 20,000 illegals(that are admitted to) come from then? How did they get in here and stay here for years under the radar? People by definition who came and stayed here in an uncontrolled manner.

Ah for beep sake Wibbs for someone who keeps harking on about the sanctity of the Twenty-seventh Amendment of the Constitution of Ireland and how powerfully it was backed by the people, I would have thought you would have read that amendment and understand what it means for Ireland and Nationality. My children by virtue of my right as a citizen are Irish citizens in their own right. This is a fact not up for debate or more of your waffle.

What was backed by the people was citizenship through "blood" as it were, so extends to your children, not the farce that was citizenship by birth and leave to remain for the parent(s). The latter is what caused a large percentage of the influx before it was closed. It was open season for passport hunters. The latest direct provision "alternative" will be another one. One we won't get to vote on.

Are you really asking why immigrants would tend to be less well off than the country they are immigrating to. Really do you think many people immigrate to poorer countries?

Then how come East Asians on average tend to do better than native populations in multicultural societies? As do Indians. Again avoiding the points like the plague and the clear evidence of the same patterns and extra social woes and resource expense of other nations over many decades.

I don't want to ask a black doctor I'm asking you. Does it make a difference to you if your doctor is Irish or not, Black or White?

Of course you don't want to ask the Black doctor. You might get an answer that doesn't quite fit with the wishful thinking fantasy. And no. So long as they're qualified. Before they retired my last GP was Black. But keep fishing.

RobbieTheRobber

Wibbs wrote: »

Fairness? Ok... And yet which demographics are likely to be still at the bottom? Again please point me to ANY nation where the same narratives don't play out.

Where did the near 20,000 illegals(that are admitted to) come from then? How did they get in here and stay here for years under the radar? People by definition who came and stayed here in an uncontrolled manner.

What was backed by the people was citizenship through "blood" as it were, so extends to your children, not the farce that was citizenship by birth and leave to remain for the parent(s). The latter is what caused a large percentage of the influx before it was closed. It was open season for passport hunters. The latest direct provision "alternative" will be another one. One we won't get to vote on.

Then how come East Asians on average tend to do better than native populations in multicultural societies? As do Indians. Again avoiding the points like the plague and the clear evidence of the same patterns and extra social woes and resource expense of other nations over many decades.
Of course you don't want to ask the Black doctor. You might get an answer that doesn't quite fit with the wishful thinking fantasy. And no. So long as they're qualified. Before they retired my last GP was Black. But keep fishing.

There is clear progression in terms of racism in the UK and the USA ignore it if you want wibbs but its true.

Similarly in my lifetime the change to how black people are talked about and treated in society has clearly progressed. Is it perfect have we the human race solved all of the problems of the past. Of course not but in many places and ways we have progressed.

The 20000 undocumented most likely legally entered the country. Just like the undocumented Irish in America arrived legally. Its the overstaying of the visa that makes them illegal. It does not change the fact we have controlled immigration in Ireland. It might not be what you want but it is a fact that we have controlled immigration.

Stop the hyperbole wibbs you're an anonymous poster on boards not the voice of Ireland. You don't get to declare the intent of the people when they voted to pass the 27th amendment.
The only thing we can say with any authority is that the 27th was passed that's it. Any other feeling you have about the entire populations motivation is your opinion and you don't get to hoist that on the irish people.

At least you have stopped trying to say my children are not Irish. That was nonsense.

Wibbs I didnt ask who your doctor was or what colour they were. I asked you if it mattered to you if your doctor was black. Would your doctor being black have an affect you?
What answer would I get from a black doctor that I don't like if I ask the question and why would I ask a black doctor your original question. Why?

Where was this east Asian and Indian question you say I'm avoiding. How can I avoid a question you didn't ask.

Are you disputing my assertion that the majority of immigrants are economically poorer than average on entry to the country they migrate?

clytemnestra

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/social-affairs/sixteen-residents-selected-to-promote-diversity-in-north-dublin-1.4571275?mode=amp

You see on the face of it this seems like a good idea. But look at the tone - they're going to "examine racial injustices". So no examination of the causes of conflict in mixed areas, no acknowledgement that migrants have responsibilities as well as rights, just an automatic assumption of victimhood. All paid for by us.

Wibbs

RobbieTheRobber wrote: »

There is clear progression in terms of racism in the UK and the USA ignore it if you want wibbs but its true.

and yet who are more likely to suffer racism? Who are more likely to be at the bottom not the top of these progressive societies? Again name one nation where they got it right and those trends are reversed. Name one. Hell, throughout human history.

The 20000 undocumented most likely legally entered the country. Just like the undocumented Irish in America arrived legally. Its the overstaying of the visa that makes them illegal. It does not change the fact we have controlled immigration in Ireland. It might not be what you want but it is a fact that we have controlled immigration.

If 20,000 can go "undocumented", for years in many cases, clearly not so controlled.

Stop the hyperbole wibbs you're an anonymous poster on boards not the voice of Ireland.

I never claimed to be, though thanks for the gravitas you seem to want to attach to my opinions. And you defend the "voice of Ireland" as if you have some insight on it yourself.

You don't get to declare the intent of the people when they voted to pass the 27th amendment.
The only thing we can say with any authority is that the 27th was passed that's it. Any other feeling you have about the entire populations motivation is your opinion and you don't get to hoist that on the irish people.

It was a pretty clear question put to the electorate; do we want to stop anchor babies? And the answer was equally clear. Unless you think a large tract of Irish people misunderstood the question?

At least you have stopped trying to say my children are not Irish. That was nonsense.

They're Irish-[insert their other nationality here]. Or do you seek to deny one side of their heritage at this altar you've constructed to make some sort of point?

Wibbs I didnt ask who your doctor was or what colour they were. I asked you if it mattered to you if your doctor was black. Would your doctor being black have an affect you?

Again being clear seems to phase you in your pursuit for some mythical gotcha.

What answer would I get from a black doctor that I don't like if I ask the question and why would I ask a black doctor your original question. Why?

If you have to ask the obvious, it means you don't see the obviousness of the question. Or don't understand it. Or don't want to understand it.

Where was this east Asian and Indian question you say I'm avoiding. How can I avoid a question you didn't ask.

Are you disputing my assertion that the majority of immigrants are economically poorer than average on entry to the country they migrate?

I've asked the same questions of you many times. I'm not lonely in that pursuit either. You avoid any direct questions you can't answer. I literally asked a question in that last post.

Wibbs

clytemnestra wrote: »

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/social-affairs/sixteen-residents-selected-to-promote-diversity-in-north-dublin-1.4571275?mode=amp

You see on the face of it this seems like a good idea. But look at the tone - they're going to "examine racial injustices". So no examination of the causes of conflict in mixed areas, no acknowledgement that migrants have responsibilities as well as rights, just an automatic assumption of victimhood. All paid for by us.

It comes from a heartfelt and hopeful place, but because it will be mired in the current and well dug in oppressor/oppressed paradigm around these discussions it will have a hard road ahead.

Interestingly one of the participants a Ms Calabrese noted this, something rarely touched upon and fair play to her:

From what I understand in Dublin these changes have not happened gradually, maybe 10 years ago the city was very different. So it’s necessary to have people who are actively working to bring awareness of diversity and give people the tools to manage changes in their society.”

The demographic changes in Ireland have been incredibly rapid, particularly in urban areas, specifically Dublin and the native Irish got little or no say in the matter. What took many decades in London or Paris happened here almost overnight. That will almost certainly lead to extra stresses in navigating this.

Swindled

clytemnestra wrote: »

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/social-affairs/sixteen-residents-selected-to-promote-diversity-in-north-dublin-1.4571275?mode=amp

You see on the face of it this seems like a good idea. But look at the tone - they're going to "examine racial injustices". So no examination of the causes of conflict in mixed areas, no acknowledgement that migrants have responsibilities as well as rights, just an automatic assumption of victimhood. All paid for by us.

"Racism is not dead, but it is on life support — kept alive by politicians, race hustlers and people who get a sense of superiority by denouncing others as 'racists.' "

- Thomas Sowell

Black American economist, social theorist, and senior fellow at Stanford University's Hoover Institution.

clytemnestra

(Quote)Interestingly one of the participants a Ms Calabrese noted this, something rarely touched upon and fair play to her:

From what I understand in Dublin these changes have not happened gradually, maybe 10 years ago the city was very different. So it’s necessary to have people who are actively working to bring awareness of diversity and give people the tools to manage changes in their society.”

The demographic changes in Ireland have been incredibly rapid, particularly in urban areas, specifically Dublin and the native Irish got little or no say in the matter. What took many decades in London or Paris happened here almost overnight. That will almost certainly lead to extra stresses in navigating this.[/QUOTE]

Yes - as someone who's lived in a couple of those places the pace was absolutely dizzying. I know a lot of people who have found it downright traumatic. A sense of home is not just to do with bricks and mortar or a familiar streetscape and scenery, it's also about the people around you. Many of the new people participate in their community, are friendly and willing to mix with Irish people. But many more aren't; they are physically there, occupying space, but their real sense of home is elsewhere and this is reflected in their indifference to what were once "our" neighbourhoods, towns, cities where generations of the same people lived and worked. We are getting the negatives of overcrowded schools and doctors surgeries, pressure on housing, increased traffic etc while our sense of social cohesion is being eroded. And we are not allowed talk about it.

Swindled

clytemnestra wrote: »

Yes - as someone who's lived in a couple of those places the pace was absolutely dizzying. I know a lot of people who have found it downright traumatic. A sense of home is not just to do with bricks and mortar or a familiar streetscape and scenery, it's also about the people around you. Many of the new people participate in their community, are friendly and willing to mix with Irish people. But many more aren't; they are physically there, occupying space, but their real sense of home is elsewhere and this is reflected in their indifference to what were once "our" neighbourhoods, towns, cities where generations of the same people lived and worked. We are getting the negatives of overcrowded schools and doctors surgeries, pressure on housing, increased traffic etc while our sense of social cohesion is being eroded. And we are not allowed talk about it.

You can go to hell or to Connaught

ek motor

clytemnestra wrote: »

Yes - as someone who's lived in a couple of those places the pace was absolutely dizzying. I know a lot of people who have found it downright traumatic. A sense of home is not just to do with bricks and mortar or a familiar streetscape and scenery, it's also about the people around you. Many of the new people participate in their community, are friendly and willing to mix with Irish people. But many more aren't; they are physically there, occupying space, but their real sense of home is elsewhere and this is reflected in their indifference to what were once "our" neighbourhoods, towns, cities where generations of the same people lived and worked. We are getting the negatives of overcrowded schools and doctors surgeries, pressure on housing, increased traffic etc while our sense of social cohesion is being eroded. And we are not allowed talk about it.

Kevin Myers wrote many articles on what was about to happen in the late 90s . It is now coming to fruition, the ghettoisation, social division, increased pressure on schools hospitals and housing and of course the ever-present mantra of 'racism' used to character assassinate and ostracise any opposition.

Seems almost incredulous that anyone could accuse a society of being racist whilst we house and give money to be people have never contributed a cent to the country. But they can and do. Because its a manipulation tactic and it works. The word 'racism/racist' has become a blackmailing term to stifle debate, opposition, and claim victimhood.

clytemnestra

Yeah, Myers was right about this. There was actually a lot more honest, robust debate 20 years ago - even the Nigerian embassy in Ireland was complaining about the fraud and criminality we were importing and they knew what they were talking about. Myers is rude and a bit of a shock jock but in the late 90s he was saying, look, the vast majority of asylum seekers are bogus, we know that, why not just drop the charade and assess them on their merits. If they have skills we need, are self supporting and will contribute, then let them in. If not kick them out.

20 years later you have young people chanting "end DP" and brainwashed into believing it's up there with the Magdalene laundries. The media has successfully stifled debate in the mainstream.

kildare lad

clytemnestra wrote: »

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/social-affairs/sixteen-residents-selected-to-promote-diversity-in-north-dublin-1.4571275?mode=amp

You see on the face of it this seems like a good idea. But look at the tone - they're going to "examine racial injustices". So no examination of the causes of conflict in mixed areas, no acknowledgement that migrants have responsibilities as well as rights, just an automatic assumption of victimhood. All paid for by us.

I see Dr Ebun is reminding us again about how racist we all are. Isn't multiculturalism great the way they can come here , get housed in a lot better and newer houses than most Irish live in, get their children paid for , medical cards and unemployment benefit all without contributing a cent to the taxpayer and then turn around and blame the natives for not doing enough to help black people. It'd be the same as taking a homeless person off the street , bring them into your home , feed , clothe and shelter them, only for them then to turn around and tell you that you're not doing enough to help them .

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/social-affairs/people-of-colour-in-ireland-need-allies-not-bystanders-1.4281610

Some young Irish-born people of colour leave for the UK once adults, or they are expected to shrug off racist bullying in school if they stay: “After George Floyd’s death people in Ireland were looking at it like, ‘It’s in the US’ . And I was like, ‘This is not just in the US. Right here in Ireland, we feel people’s knees on our neck, even me, with all my education… ’ Yes, you’re not physically killing us, but you’re emotionally and mentally killing people.”

It is not enough to be “not racist”, she argues. White people need to be actively “anti-racist”. “White supremacy and racism were not created by black people. The way people see it, it’s black people that have a problem. But no, it’s white people who have a problem.

“It’s not, ‘How do you deal with your racism?’ They should say, ‘How do we deal with ‘our racism’?” She adds that some white Irish people go through a series of stages “before they can actually hear about race and racism”.

“They hear it first as an indictment of themselves and nobody wants to hear anything bad about themselves… In order not to sit with that uncomfortable feeling, they run away from it, they push back by denying the experience.”

Racism is not about “the KKK, that you have a white hood on your head”, Joseph says. “No. Racism is every day. It’s normal. It’s written into our policies and how we operate on a daily basis.

“Even if you do nothing, just be white, all you need to do is show up and automatically you are favoured. Whiteness makes you a benefactor of the racist structures that have been put in place.”

RobbieTheRobber

Wibbs wrote: »

and yet who are more likely to suffer racism? Who are more likely to be at the bottom not the top of these progressive societies? Again name one nation where they got it right and those trends are reversed. Name one. Hell, throughout human history.

Who is more likely to suffer racism?
Victims of Racism are most likely to be the victims of racism. Any person can be the victim of racism depending on circumstances.
What answer are you looking for her. For me to name a country culture ethnic or socioeconomic group. Are we only talking abut current times or should we include systemic racism in the last century?

No matter what the answer though racism in al its forms are wrong.

Wibbs wrote: »

If 20,000 can go "undocumented", for years in many cases, clearly not so controlled.

That would seem to be by Policy of the State there Wibbs then. But the last time I tried to get you to hold the government responsible you blamed "Multicultural Politic", I asked you what it was twice and you never answered though. So I'm still not sure what that means.
Can you explain what you mean by multicultural politic in this context?

Wibbs wrote: »

I never claimed to be, though thanks for the gravitas you seem to want to attach to my opinions. And you defend the "voice of Ireland" as if you have some insight on it yourself. It was a pretty clear question put to the electorate; do we want to stop anchor babies? And the answer was equally clear. Unless you think a large tract of Irish people misunderstood the question?

:D:D Wibbs calling you an anon on the interwebs is as much gravitas as i attach to your words, in fact I said as much in my last post but you didn't quote that.

No Wibbs that wasn't a pretty clear question. You are lying straight out there. The question put to the nation was not "do we want to stop anchor babies?" that is just straight up les and manipulation of the truth. Go away and read the question put in the referendum and come back.

The reasons the entire population vote on any matter cannot be summed in a little racist soundbite to suit your side of an argument like that. Absolute nonsense wibbs. Lies about the referendum question and nonsense.

Wibbs wrote: »

They're Irish-[insert their other nationality here]. Or do you seek to deny one side of their heritage at this altar you've constructed to make some sort of point?

What are you talking about?
I have told you you they are Irish all your words after that are nonsense. I'm going to reiterate my children as defined by the Law of Ireland are Irish. That is fact. Do I have to provide you anymore information on my children (the answer is no wibbs) so to you they are Irish as a fact of Law. So just stop the silly games and trying to anger me by picking on my children.
Really mean behaviour there wibbs. I mean it nearly crosses the line of don't be a dick wouldn't you say.

Wibbs wrote: »

Again being clear seems to phase you in your pursuit for some mythical gotcha.

If you have to ask the obvious, it means you don't see the obviousness of the question. Or don't understand it. Or don't want to understand it.

I've asked the same questions of you many times. I'm not lonely in that pursuit either. You avoid any direct questions you can't answer. I literally asked a question in that last post.

:D:D I'm keeping this section together its gas. First you tell me your not answering in my question and you want even answer the question you wanted me to ask a black doctor. You wont answer your own question now.

But wait it gets better then you get upset that I wont answer your surprise question that before you asked me you got annoyed I didn't
answer.
This thread is getting better all the time.

But I will play along for a bit more. Ask me your great big east asia india gotcha question. The great big question that proves racism will never go away or something. Ask it and I will answer. Just make sure its a nice defined question right that's all I ask.

RobbieTheRobber

clytemnestra wrote: »

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/social-affairs/sixteen-residents-selected-to-promote-diversity-in-north-dublin-1.4571275?mode=amp

You see on the face of it this seems like a good idea. But look at the tone - they're going to "examine racial injustices". So no examination of the causes of conflict in mixed areas, no acknowledgement that migrants have responsibilities as well as rights, just an automatic assumption of victimhood. All paid for by us.

Oh no Dublin city council is spending money on its local communities. The horrible bastards. Why would they do such a thing!

clytemnestra

clytemnestra wrote: »

Yes - as someone who's lived in a couple of those places the pace was absolutely dizzying. I know a lot of people who have found it downright traumatic. A sense of home is not just to do with bricks and mortar or a familiar streetscape and scenery, it's also about the people around you. Many of the new people participate in their community, are friendly and willing to mix with Irish people. But many more aren't; they are physically there, occupying space, but their real sense of home is elsewhere and this is reflected in their indifference to what were once "our" neighbourhoods, towns, cities where generations of the same people lived and worked. We are getting the negatives of overcrowded schools and doctors surgeries, pressure on housing, increased traffic etc while our sense of social cohesion is being eroded. And we are not allowed talk about it.

You would have to worry for the mental health of people who get 'traumatised ' by non Irish people moving into 'their' neighbourhood.

Wibbs

Swindled wrote: »

"Racism is not dead, but it is on life support — kept alive by politicians, race hustlers and people who get a sense of superiority by denouncing others as 'racists.' "

- Thomas Sowell

Black American economist, social theorist, and senior fellow at Stanford University's Hoover Institution.

Actually I would say racism is alive and well and likely to remain as part and parcel of humanity and human nature into the foreseeable. This seemingly innate tribal Them/Us mindset is dug in deep throughout history and right down to today. Every single flashpoint in history and the world today is based on it and resources. In it's overt form it comes out as obvious racism, in its covert form it's more of a whisper, with all points in between.

kildare lad wrote: »

Some young Irish-born people of colour leave for the UK once adults, or they are expected to shrug off racist bullying in school if they stay: “After George Floyd’s death people in Ireland were looking at it like, ‘It’s in the US’ . And I was like, ‘This is not just in the US. Right here in Ireland, we feel people’s knees on our neck, even me, with all my education… ’ Yes, you’re not physically killing us, but you’re emotionally and mentally killing people.”

It is not enough to be “not racist”, she argues. White people need to be actively “anti-racist”. “White supremacy and racism were not created by black people. The way people see it, it’s black people that have a problem. But no, it’s white people who have a problem.

“It’s not, ‘How do you deal with your racism?’ They should say, ‘How do we deal with ‘our racism’?” She adds that some white Irish people go through a series of stages “before they can actually hear about race and racism”.

“They hear it first as an indictment of themselves and nobody wants to hear anything bad about themselves… In order not to sit with that uncomfortable feeling, they run away from it, they push back by denying the experience.”

Racism is not about “the KKK, that you have a white hood on your head”, Joseph says. “No. Racism is every day. It’s normal. It’s written into our policies and how we operate on a daily basis.

“Even if you do nothing, just be white, all you need to do is show up and automatically you are favoured. Whiteness makes you a benefactor of the racist structures that have been put in place.”

Ebun is an opportunist who has exploited the situation for her own benefit. Such changes in history always bring them to the fore. Though her very musings put paid to the lie that multiculturalism works. By her own words it clearly doesn't work too well for many of the new faces that come into it.

clytemnestra

bubblypop wrote: »

You would have to worry for the mental health of people who get 'traumatised ' by non Irish people moving into 'their' neighbourhood.

And there we have it. Imagine people thinking of a place as theirs when their ancestors have lived there for generations, when in fact it belongs to everybody - from an international REIT to any randomer who shows up.

Wibbs

bubblypop wrote: »

You would have to worry for the mental health of people who get 'traumatised ' by non Irish people moving into 'their' neighbourhood.

Well apparently the non Irish people are "traumatised". What do you say of their mental health?

RobbieTheRobber wrote: »

Who is more likely to suffer racism?
Victims of Racism are most likely to be the victims of racism. Any person can be the victim of racism depending on circumstances.
What answer are you looking for her. For me to name a country culture ethnic or socioeconomic group. Are we only talking abut current times or should we include systemic racism in the last century?

No matter what the answer though racism in al its forms are wrong.

Still avoiding...

That would seem to be by Policy of the State there Wibbs then. But the last time I tried to get you to hold the government responsible you blamed "Multicultural Politic", I asked you what it was twice and you never answered though. So I'm still not sure what that means.
Can you explain what you mean by multicultural politic in this context?

It should be pretty clear. The multicultural politic holds that diversity works, that it's an overwhelming positive and because of that demographic changes are largely ignored and any questions avoided around such changes. This leads to complacency in government until they're forced to react when things get a little too obvious to ignore. The pace of change was so rapid in Ireland that this complacency was even more in play. The first obvious reaction to it, a few years too late was the 2004 referendum.

No Wibbs that wasn't a pretty clear question. You are lying straight out there. The question put to the nation was not "do we want to stop anchor babies?" that is just straight up les and manipulation of the truth. Go away and read the question put in the referendum and come back.

The reasons the entire population vote on any matter cannot be summed in a little racist soundbite to suit your side of an argument like that. Absolute nonsense wibbs. Lies about the referendum question and nonsense.

No problem. This was the change put to the Irish voter.

Notwithstanding any other provision of this Constitution, a person born in the island of Ireland, which includes its islands and seas, who does not have, at the time of the birth of that person, at least one parent who is an Irish citizen or entitled to be an Irish citizen is not entitled to Irish citizenship or nationality, unless provided for by law.

Being simply born here does not automatically make one Irish. Because of the GFA it did for a time and we got "anchor babies". That was the question put to the voters. It was entirely about that trend and it was all over the media at the time and the answer from the Irish electorate was resoundingly clear. Or maybe it was something else in your mind. Please feel free to add lots of smileys and accusations of "racism" at your leisure.

What are you talking about?
I have told you you they are Irish all your words after that are nonsense. I'm going to reiterate my children as defined by the Law of Ireland are Irish. That is fact. Do I have to provide you anymore information on my children (the answer is no wibbs) so to you they are Irish as a fact of Law. So just stop the silly games and trying to anger me by picking on my children.
Really mean behaviour there wibbs. I mean it nearly crosses the line of don't be a dick wouldn't you say.

No it does not. You have freely stated your family background and that your Irish children have a mum who is not Irish. I simply asked why their other heritage appears to be left out of the equation. For clarity I am not looking for you to expand any more on your private life. You were the one brought it up. You could have easily run with a hypothetical to get the points across.

But I will play along for a bit more. Ask me your great big east asia india gotcha question. The great big question that proves racism will never go away or something. Ask it and I will answer. Just make sure its a nice defined question right that's all I ask.

I consider it a waste of keystrokes tbh. You will avoid it and then when the blood's up come back with an excess of smileys, accusations of racism and accusations of some personal attack. Whatever question I pose in good faith will almost certainly not be returned in that fashion. I'm sorry, but that my opinion of how this will go.

Fandymo

Strumms wrote: »

This,

I cannot purchase a ticket to fly to Ethiopia, demand accommodation, cash payments and long term housing..

Why ? Because they don’t want me to be of that ability, they don’t believe that I should benefit from a six figure investment having no connection there...they don’t want me saying I’ll take a supermarket job, any job for peanuts... their rules as are ours here... might even become more tough and stringy, might have to.

Have you tried telling them that diversity is their strength. That is all you need to do apparently. Tell them about the stew and coddle you can make too. They’ll welcome you with open arms.

Wibbs

Well that entirely depends on your definition of racism, if you water it down enough every difference of opinion involving two different skin tones is "racism". Cultural and tribal differences and disputes are seldom about actual racism.

Oh I agree. Racism is an obvious form of a more general tribal them and us part of human nature. we only have to look to the north of our Island to see it. Same "race", actual cultural differences are pretty minimal too and yet centuries of mutual threat that boiled over into decades of open hostility. The Rwandan genocide another example. To a redneck wearing bedsheets in Arkansas they're all "Black" and yet they saw internal differences right up to a murderous degree. In multicultural setups it can be more subtle too. Back in the early 90's I was over in the UK visiting a mate studying there. One of their flatmates in student digs was a Black English guy who offered to show me around while my friend was otherwise engaged. Sound lad and like many British people he had little enough knowledge of this country so was full of questions. At the time the "Irish question" was still in play there and one thing he did note was that because I'm White I'd get almost no attention going into shops and the like and unless I opened my gob that would be that. Whereas his skin colour would be more likely to get attention in some areas, even though he was a local. My identity in a majority White nation was more hidden, more background noise, his wasn't.

While cultural differences and disputes are certainly often not about "race", being of an obliviously different demographic makes any existing them/us thing easier to make it about that. That's why I put the question to the other poster about asking a Black doctor of their experiences in a "diverse" society. They will have tales of differences a White doctor would be completely oblivious to.

clytemnestra

clytemnestra wrote: »

And there we have it. Imagine people thinking of a place as theirs when their ancestors have lived there for generations, when in fact it belongs to everybody - from an international REIT to any randomer who shows up.

Yep, that's correct. Just because your ancestors lived somewhere, it doesn't give you automatic rights over something.
I'm not sure why anyone would think they have rights to any area, except for any property they own themselves.

No one can chose their neighbours.