What are your views on Multiculturalism in Ireland? - Threadbanned User List in OP

Kaybaykwah

BarnardsLoop wrote: »

The video is of course real but who are the people in it? Where's the verification for anything? It's just a video of five random people talking.

Jesus, I know there's some seriously gullible rubes floating around these days but I refuse to believe people can't see through this.

Yes that's right, if you listen closely, the panelists are not the ones bringing up the undermining bit, only one responds to an off screen interlocutor. Dodgy at best.

Wibbs

ILoveYourVibes wrote: »

So they are not native?

By very definition, no.

Biafranlivemat

It will not Work.
Because of this nonsense.
https://postimg.cc/Z9pZWnkN

paddyuibh

My views are ever increasingly turning negative on it. Why? Because more and more so I'm reading, im watching or I'm hearing of crimes being committed by Foreigners in this Country, yes we have Irish scum but does that mean it's ok to import it?

They rarely get deported if they commit crimes here. Our Country and Culture is changing cause of it- where going down same road as most other Countries with open-boarders, a lawless, crime ridden, non passionate kip of a Country.

Us Irish have lost our spine, we can't even stand up against FF, FG LOL . we love to give out over media sites but to do actually something about it? Nahhh the vast majority are to lazy to do anything about it.

World is gone PC mad, Government doesn't care truly about the Irish people. Sure there bringing in people giving them piece paper 1,500euro thank you sir/madam your now Irish haha.

As bad as they sounds but in Ireland we need someone like Trump or atleast someone who shows they actually care about there Country, it's people, history and heritage.

Small Controlled Immigration, YES.

what we have in Ireland now? Un-controlled mass Immigration, barely any reprocussions for foreign crime. A Big NO.

Anyone not contributing plane ticket home.

Bobblehats

In my business if somebody ordered a surplus of square pegs for round holes they’d be gone long before they repeated the trick

Wibbs

BarnardsLoop wrote: »

The video is of course real but who are the people in it? Where's the verification for anything? It's just a video of five random people talking.

Jesus, I know there's some seriously gullible rubes floating around these days but I refuse to believe people can't see through this.

Aye. The replacement notion is bollocks. It hasn't happened in any other European nation who has been running the multicultural stuff for many decades.

The undermining aspect is also extremely bogus. Outside of the occasional loopy self hating White academic, media talking head and armchair progressive on the interwebs, it doesn't exist.

And no we don't have "open borders". Actually our borders are less open than they were in 2000. Of the so called New Irish that landed here back then the same nation sources of migrants are overwhelmingly refused access today. Our "diversity" is and was almost entirely based on migration, legal and illegal during the Celtic Tiger years and the being born here automatically makes you Irish legality of the time. That gate is closed but the horse has long bolted.

joe40

paddyuibh wrote: »

My views are ever increasingly turning negative on it. Why? Because more and more so I'm reading, im watching or I'm hearing of crimes being committed by Foreigners in this Country, yes we have Irish scum but does that mean it's ok to import it?

They rarely get deported if they commit crimes here. Our Country and Culture is changing cause of it- where going down same road as most other Countries with open-boarders, a lawless, crime ridden, non passionate kip of a Country.

Us Irish have lost our spine, we can't even stand up against FF, FG LOL . we love to give out over media sites but to do actually something about it? Nahhh the vast majority are to lazy to do anything about it.

World is gone PC mad, Government doesn't care truly about the Irish people. Sure there bringing in people giving them piece paper 1,500euro thank you sir/madam your now Irish haha.

As bad as they sounds but in Ireland we need someone like Trump or atleast someone who shows they actually care about there Country, it's people, history and heritage.

Small Controlled Immigration, YES.

what we have in Ireland now? Un-controlled mass Immigration, barely any reprocussions for foreign crime. A Big NO.

Anyone not contributing plane ticket home.

We don't have uncontrolled mass immigration. We have movement from the EU citizen's as per EU law that we can also use.
All other immigration is controlled.

joe40

joe40 wrote: »

We don't have uncontrolled mass immigration. We have movement from the EU citizen's as per EU law that we can also use.
All other immigration is controlled.

I think the issue is how it is controlled, and how those controls are bypassed for gains in political capital.

I think most of us are in favor of stronger controls that favor those with the skills/education (and financial support) to be completely independent on arrival, as they're more likely to contribute positively to the country. A move away from the virtue signalling that comes from Irish politicians and the EU that demands that refugees are allowed in, irrespective of the controls that should be enforced.

Slowyourrole

Wibbs wrote: »

Positive. For a colony that required mass numbers of people from elsewhere to exist in the first place and grow thereafter. I don't see how this is difficult to understand or to understand the differences.

It's not. You simply like to point out differences when it suits your argument. If there is nuance, it applies both ways and you shouldn't make broad statements that ignores it.

Wibbs wrote: »

There are parts of Dublin that are becoming less native Irish over time and over the last ten to fifteen years. Not a shock as people almost inevitably coalesce together among their "own", often around religious community settings, but also retail centres and the like.

Which parts of Dublin are enclaves to which communities?

Wibbs wrote: »

*Heads keyboard* No. I am saying using ex colonies that depended on "multiculturalism" immigration to simply exist as examples of the positives of this idea is not comparable to European(or other) non colonies and is beyond silly. Never mind that they were not exactly multicultural for most of their history and still have major issues today along "race" lines, or have you missed the whole BLM marches and protests?

I am also looking at the decades long examples of European states that have embraced this politic, or were forced to because of a colonial past and their experiences and the extra social pressures up to outright social disorder and don't want that for this country or any other that has so far escaped this politic. And no, "exotic" cafes dont really serve as a prize. Booby prize maybe.

You should stop banging your head on things. The USA didn't depend on multiculturalism, it depended on large numbers. And that brought multiculturalism with it. This had negative and positive effects. Although it seems to me the negative aspects are more due to friction caused by resistance to multiculturalism than any change it actually brought.



Same can be said for other countries. You can't accept people in, throw them in poverty and blame their culture when they don't integrate straight away. You can't put someone in a ghetto in Paris and then complain when they don't act like someone living in a house in a leafy part of the country. There are two ways to prevent the issue you refer to. Your solution to multiculturalism is assimilation but that's just wiping out a culture. You can't even conceive of positives from another culture past "exotic cafes".

Tony EH wrote: »

That wasn't the point either.

The issue is that there wasn't really an indigenous culture for the Irish to be integrated into. Doesn't matter whether the "Dirty Irish" were considered to be just one rung above the blacks in much of America.

There wasn't a native culture, but there was a culture from those who had settled/conquered the place before. And it was one that the Irish didn't fit in to.

Tony EH wrote: »

Plus when the Irish moved to, say, the likes of New York, they were very much segregated into their own communities. The Chinese were the same, so were the Germans, so were the Italians...etc.

There was no great melting pot at street level. It was very much groups of nationalities living among their own and it was like that until quite recently.

You could go back to Queens in 1975 and see whole Irish neighbourhoods. Cross a certain street and you were in an Italian neighbourhood and I can assure you there was little harmony. Go up to Brooklyn and you could tell instantly where the Polish Neighbourhood ended and the Jewish one began.

110th Street in Manhattan was the demarcation line between "white" streets and Harlem.

And ot would still be very much this way except for the fact that living costs have forced the break up of communities. Now they are segregated by wealth status instead.

Sounds like you are arguing in favour of ghettos.

Yellow_Fern

Wibbs wrote: »

Aye. The replacement notion is bollocks. It hasn't happened in any other European nation who has been running the multicultural stuff for many decades.

The undermining aspect is also extremely bogus. Outside of the occasional loopy self hating White academic, media talking head and armchair progressive on the interwebs, it doesn't exist.

And no we don't have "open borders". Actually our borders are less open than they were in 2000. Of the so called New Irish that landed here back then the same nation sources of migrants are overwhelmingly refused access today. Our "diversity" is and was almost entirely based on migration, legal and illegal during the Celtic Tiger years and the being born here automatically makes you Irish legality of the time. That gate is closed but the horse has long bolted.

Look at literally every wealthy country in the Gulf. Look at Macau or Hong Kong. All states transformed by migration ie replaced. In Europe its not so extremely but if the patterns continue you are looking at replacement in countries like Italy.

biko

Muslims in France are pushing to have sharia law in their small cities.
This is multiculturalism.
https://www.facebook.com/alarabiya.english/videos/601396273842243/


Sharia law in Ireland 'if Muslims are the majority'
https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/sharia-law-in-ireland-if-muslims-are-the-majority-26416822.html

Stoning and amputation might grab the headlines, but sharia law is as much a moral code as a legal one, and many in Ireland's Muslim community would like to see it practised here in certain cases, writes Mary Fitzgerald
https://www.irishtimes.com/news/would-sharia-law-work-in-ireland-1.894736

So what is sharia law?
It's the notion that women do not inherit equal to men.
It's the notion that two women's testimony equals that of one man.

Wibbs

Slowyourrole wrote: »

Which parts of Dublin are enclaves to which communities?

Parts of Fingal have higher concentrations of Africans, Dublin 8 which once had a higher concentration of Jewish folks now has more Muslim(the former either left for the US or Israel in the 80's and 90's or moved out Rathfarnham direction).

You should stop banging your head on things.

You make it increasingly difficult with hour scarily simplistic readings of history, even your own country's.

The USA didn't depend on multiculturalism, it depended on large numbers. And that brought multiculturalism with it. This had negative and positive effects. Although it seems to me the negative aspects are more due to friction caused by resistance to multiculturalism than any change it actually brought.

Or y'know basic human nature that guarantees resistance to the different. That is and has been played out in damned near every single country and culture on earth from the get go.

Same can be said for other countries. You can't accept people in, throw them in poverty and blame their culture when they don't integrate straight away. You can't put someone in a ghetto in Paris and then complain when they don't act like someone living in a house in a leafy part of the country.

1) the trick is not accepting the poor and the unqualified in in the first place. We don't need them. We're not a colony building on the simple graft of numbers. Nowhere is anymore, certainly not in the West. Even America isn't exactly promoting the tired, poor, huddled masses to come anymore. Quite the opposite and long before that muppet Trump came along too.

2) There are plenty of Arabic, African and Asian doctors and engineers in Ireland living in leafy suburbs and they didn't come over on a rubber dinghy or give birth hours after landing in a port.

3) People naturally gravitate towards their own, along race, ethnicity, religion, economics in every mixed cultural set up you care to mention. "Ghettos" occur organically. A leafy rich White suburb is just as much a "ghetto" of the similar, as a poor Black neighbourhood, or a Little Italy, or Chinatown is. In Ireland we have a town like Rathkeale which has become a Traveler "ghetto", again organically. Human nature again. Something that the multicultural politic almost aggressively ignores.

There are two ways to prevent the issue you refer to. Your solution to multiculturalism is assimilation but that's just wiping out a culture.

You must be reading someone else because not once have I mentioned assimilation. I just don't want Ireland to repeat the inevitable errors of applying this naive dream of multiculturalism by keeping the numbers of unqualified migrants low.

You can't even conceive of positives from another culture past "exotic cafes".

You, nor anyone else who flag waves this politic has offered anything much in the way of positives beyond vague talk of diversity being its own reward and the aforementioned exotic food establishments. Sometimes the economies of cheap labour are mentioned, but that's about it.

Sounds like you are arguing in favour of ghettos.

See above.

Wibbs

Yellow_Fern wrote: »

Look at Macau or Hong Kong. All states transformed by migration ie replaced.

Eh both Macau and HK are over 90% Chinese in demographics. As they were before European powers got involved. Even at the height of European influence the locals were in the majority.

Yellow_Fern

Yellow_Fern wrote: »

Look at literally every wealthy country in the Gulf. Look at Macau or Hong Kong. All states transformed by migration ie replaced. In Europe its not so extremely but if the patterns continue you are looking at replacement in countries like Italy.

What are you on about? The Gulf countries weren't altered by migration. They brought in hordes of migrant workers to do the crap jobs, treated them badly, and now they're all leaving. The local populations remained far above the migrants, except for the dirt poor remaining dirt poor.

Macau? Same with the Gulf states. HK? Where is all this migrant population? Are you talking about Chinese mainlanders or foreign expats?

As for replacement for Italy, unlikely. Belgium would be a better example. Or look at the demographics of London.

Yellow_Fern

Wibbs wrote: »

Eh both Macau and HK are over 90% Chinese in demographics. As they were before European powers got involved. Even at the height of European influence the locals were in the majority.

Macausese and Hong Kongese are their own cultural units. Chinese but different. Macau has its own language which is now more or less extinct. The culture, language and politics of Macau have been transformed beyond recognition by migration from mainland China. Hong Kong is a less dramatic example but it is still happening. Goa is a another example where Goan are not a minority in their own land.

Deleted User wrote: »

What are you on about? The Gulf countries weren't altered by migration. They brought in hordes of migrant workers to do the crap jobs, treated them badly, and now they're all leaving. The local populations remained far above the migrants, except for the dirt poor remaining dirt poor.

Macau? Same with the Gulf states. HK? Where is all this migrant population? Are you talking about Chinese mainlanders or foreign expats?

As for replacement for Italy, unlikely. Belgium would be a better example. Or look at the demographics of London.

The Gulf states were transformed by migration. Unlike Western countries these states treat the migrants terribly and deny them citizenship but the transformation of these countries is dramatic and they won't ever return to what they were. Yes you can point to Belgium or London as examples too. All these examples show the massive inequality that results from too much immigration, an economic inequality that drives all sorts of social problems. If poor ethnic minority parts of cities have more crime, its probably more to do with this inequality than other factors.

ILoveYourVibes

joe40 wrote: »

Maybe there are some, but I still find Irish people to be generally patriotic, and appreciative of Irish culture, music, Gaelic games etc.

I think a lot of our culture is awesome. But i think its become more awesome with diversity.

I would like to ask how people think our culture is suffering from diversity?

Yellow_Fern

ILoveYourVibes wrote: »

I think a lot of our culture is awesome. But i think its become more awesome with diversity.

I would like to ask how people think our culture is suffering from diversity?

Diversity isn't bad, but adding a lot of diversity is by far the easiest way to raise inequality. It is all about tradeoffs.

Yellow_Fern

Yellow_Fern wrote: »

Macausese and Hong Kongese are their own cultural units. Chinese but different. Macau has its own language which is now more or less extinct. The culture, language and politics of Macau have been transformed beyond recognition by migration from mainland China. Hong Kong is a less dramatic example but it is still happening. Goa is a another example where Goan are not a minority in their own land.

Every province/district in China has it's own dialect (a single Chinese language is only a relatively new idea) and often has a variety of local ethnic groups distinct from other provinces. Macau wasn't transformed by migration from mainland China because Macau never stopped being part of mainland China except for economic/political reasons (to openly allow gambling and other vices).

The Gulf states were transformed by migration. Unlike Western countries these states treat the migrants terribly and deny them citizenship but the transformation of these countries is dramatic and they won't ever return to what they were.

Okay, I completely disagree. Each time I've been to these countries, the local culture/people remained dominant. Gimme some proof beyond your claims.

Yes you can point to Belgium or London as examples too. All these examples show the massive inequality that results from too much immigration, an economic inequality that drives all sorts of social problems. If poor ethnic minority parts of cities have more crime, its probably more to do with this inequality than other factors.

TBH I'm not really sure what it is that you're arguing.

Wibbs

ILoveYourVibes wrote: »

I think a lot of our culture is awesome. But i think its become more awesome with diversity.

These are just empty words devoid of much in the way of argument(though to be fair my teeth itch at the use of the word "awesome" almost as a reflex). You earlier contended that Ireland's culture and economics improved because of immigrants yet gave no examples. Never mind that Ireland was well in hand throwing off the past by the mid 80's(the moving statues daftness was the death rattle of the old order) and growing economically in the 90's, well before the influx of non EU quasi or fully illegal migrants in the late 90's. They only came because of our economic changes and a legal loophole. When the bust came and before that legal loophole was closed the numbers dwindled to a trickle.

I would like to ask how people think our culture is suffering from diversity?

Thankfully the numbers are still small and I would keep them that way, because when the numbers get larger, well, just look around at multiple examples of the negatives of "diversity" in many European urban areas and capitals. All aboard for exotic restaurants and foodstuffs in Tesco and grenade attacks, civil unrest and generations feeling left out of the mainstream in low income ghettos.

Yellow_Fern

Deleted User wrote: »

Every province/district in China has it's own dialect (a single Chinese language is only a relatively new idea)

I am aware.

Deleted User wrote: »

EMacau wasn't transformed by migration from mainland China because Macau never stopped being part of mainland China

It was separated from Mainland China, politically for 500 years.

Deleted User wrote: »

EMacau wasn't transformed by migration from mainland China because Macau never stopped being part of mainland China except for economic/political reasons (to openly allow gambling and other vices).

Those economic and political reasons had a big impact. A very percentage of Macau is mainland born and this has changed the atmosphere and contributed to the extinction of their language. You might consider it internal migration but you still have the same result.

Deleted User wrote: »

Okay, I completely disagree. Each time I've been to these countries, the local culture/people remained dominant. Gimme some proof beyond your claims.

I have spent a lot of time in Dubai and I can tell you Hindi is a lot more useful language than the Arabic at this stage. The natives are only 10% of the local population in many of the gulf states. It was their choice to allow in so many people but I would argue it was a very bad choice and it has created apartheid nations

silverharp

The whole dIvEsItY iS sTeNgTh is wearing thin, in a year with a global pandemic , diversity is proving to be a weakness to the point where the more diverse elements are causing havoc in cities around Europe

TomTomTim

ILoveYourVibes wrote: »

I would like to ask how people think our culture is suffering from diversity?

What's the point? No matter how many solid examples are given, they'll be ignored.

Yellow_Fern

Yellow_Fern wrote: »

I am aware.
It was separated from Mainland China, politically for 500 years.

Those economic and political reasons had a big impact. A very percentage of Macau is mainland born and this has changed the atmosphere and contributed to the extinction of their language. You might consider it internal migration but you still have the same result.

A population that considers themselves to be Chinese.. yes. the same result.

I have spent a lot of time in Dubai and I can tell you Hindi is a lot more useful language than the Arabic at this stage. The natives are only 10% of the local population in many of the gulf states. It was their choice to allow in so many people but I would argue it was a very bad choice and it has created apartheid nations

I've also spent time throughout the Gulf countries, including Dubei... and it entirely depends what social circles you're mixing in.

And it hasn't created "apartheid" nations since the migrant populations generally don't receive permanent residency without limitations. In any case, a large portion of the migrant populations are returning to their original countries due to both Covid, and the fall in the value of oil, which is directly affecting the Gulf economies.

Cheap labor being brought in to service an economy has been done for centuries. Your logic suggests a permanence that is not there.

ILoveYourVibes

Wibbs wrote: »

Thankfully the numbers are still small and I would keep them that way, because when the numbers get larger, well, just look around at multiple examples of the negatives of "diversity" in many European urban areas and capitals. All aboard for exotic restaurants and foodstuffs in Tesco and grenade attacks, civil unrest and generations feeling left out of the mainstream in low income ghettos.

You had riots like that before immigration. That was what the french revolution was about ..the riots in the uk in the 80s etc.

ILoveYourVibes

TomTomTim wrote: »

What's the point? No matter how many solid examples are given, they'll be ignored.

No they will be debated.

To be honest ...the only 2 i have ever heard is supposedly crime and lack of jobs. Both of which happened before immigration.

TomTomTim

ILoveYourVibes wrote: »

To be honest ...the only 2 i have ever heard is supposedly crime and lack of jobs. Both of which happened before immigration.

Crime levels would be one of the main ones for me. Of course there was always crime, there always will be, but it's a matter of how much. Mass immigration, especially of the unskilled, nearly always leads to higher crime levels. I don't see why anyone would want to make their country a more dangerous place in the name of diversity.

Yellow_Fern

ILoveYourVibes wrote: »

You had riots like that before immigration. That was what the french revolution was about ..the riots in the uk in the 80s etc.

The 1980s London riots were closely linked to impoverished ethnic minority communities. The French Revolution was not caused by immigration but poor social cohesion in 18th cen France was a factor and that is the same concern people have about immigration.

ILoveYourVibes wrote: »

No they will be debated.

To be honest ...the only 2 i have ever heard is supposedly crime and lack of jobs. Both of which happened before immigration.

No one here is arguing that immigration causes a lack of jobs. That is patiently untrue and posters here realise it. Immigration clearly creates jobs. What posters are more concerned about is people coming here being unable to get work due to low education and then attributing this to locals for racism.

biko

Yellow_Fern wrote: »

Immigration clearly creates jobs.

I'm curious - what jobs do you mean are created by immigration? Other than direct provision centre staff?

I realise some jobs are filled by Polish/British applicants.
But how is immigration creating jobs?

Yellow_Fern

biko wrote: »

I'm curious - what jobs do you mean are created by immigration? Other than direct provision centre staff?

I realise some jobs are filled by Polish/British applicants.
But how is immigration creating jobs?

More people in the country, more demand for services, many of which are very inelastic eg food. So the view in economics is that immigration always increases jobs, but it is a very poor justification for immigration and a country could increase in jobs but decrease in wealth per capita.

Slowyourrole

Wibbs wrote: »

Parts of Fingal have higher concentrations of Africans, Dublin 8 which once had a higher concentration of Jewish folks now has more Muslim(the former either left for the US or Israel in the 80's and 90's or moved out Rathfarnham direction).

Would you consider those "enclaves"?

Wibbs wrote: »

Or y'know basic human nature that guarantees resistance to the different. That is and has been played out in damned near every single country and culture on earth from the get go.

The problem is that the nationalistic anti multiculturalism movement doesn't differentiate between good and bad change.

Wibbs wrote: »

1) the trick is not accepting the poor and the unqualified in in the first place. We don't need them. We're not a colony building on the simple graft of numbers. Nowhere is anymore, certainly not in the West. Even America isn't exactly promoting the tired, poor, huddled masses to come anymore. Quite the opposite and long before that muppet Trump came along too.

2) There are plenty of Arabic, African and Asian doctors and engineers in Ireland living in leafy suburbs and they didn't come over on a rubber dinghy or give birth hours after landing in a port.

3) People naturally gravitate towards their own, along race, ethnicity, religion, economics in every mixed cultural set up you care to mention. "Ghettos" occur organically. A leafy rich White suburb is just as much a "ghetto" of the similar, as a poor Black neighbourhood, or a Little Italy, or Chinatown is. In Ireland we have a town like Rathkeale which has become a Traveler "ghetto", again organically. Human nature again. Something that the multicultural politic almost aggressively ignores.

1) It's not always about what we need economically.


2) What's your point? They came from privileged positions so they had it easier.


3) You're assuming that was organic due to a natural tendency to congregate rather than out of financial and other necessity.

Wibbs wrote: »

You must be reading someone else because not once have I mentioned assimilation. I just don't want Ireland to repeat the inevitable errors of applying this naive dream of multiculturalism by keeping the numbers of unqualified migrants low.

And the ones who do get in? Do you not believe they should change to local customs?

Wibbs wrote: »

You, nor anyone else who flag waves this politic has offered anything much in the way of positives beyond vague talk of diversity being its own reward and the aforementioned exotic food establishments. Sometimes the economies of cheap labour are mentioned, but that's about it.

That's because it's not a simple concept. You claim not to like simple views yet you look for simple answers like "exotic cafes".

biko wrote: »

Muslims in France are pushing to have sharia law in their small cities.
This is multiculturalism.
https://www.facebook.com/alarabiya.english/videos/601396273842243/

No, that's just democratic will.

biko wrote: »

Sharia law in Ireland 'if Muslims are the majority'
https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/sharia-law-in-ireland-if-muslims-are-the-majority-26416822.html

Again, you struggle with the concept of democracy. If more extremist Muslims ever become a majority in Ireland, why wouldn't they choose it's direction? You seem to be as afraid of this replacement nonsense as the people who responded to Wibbs picture.

biko wrote: »

Stoning and amputation might grab the headlines, but sharia law is as much a moral code as a legal one, and many in Ireland's Muslim community would like to see it practised here in certain cases, writes Mary Fitzgerald
https://www.irishtimes.com/news/would-sharia-law-work-in-ireland-1.894736

So what is sharia law?
It's the notion that women do not inherit equal to men.
It's the notion that two women's testimony equals that of one man.

There's many in Ireland's Catholic community that would like to see abortion and gay marriage banned. And they are the more culturally traditional ones. If we had remained stuck in our old ways instead of broadening our horizons and evolving our culture, most of us would be like them.