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What are your views on Multiculturalism in Ireland? - Threadbanned User List in OP

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    #8072
    Mike Murdock
    Registered Users Posts: 921 ✭✭✭Mike Murdock


    Happydays2020 wrote: »
    Unless we want to have crappy pensions and greater poverty our demographics mean we will need a higher working population in 20 years so we will end up with a fa more multi cultural society.

    I think this is a great thing. We should embrace it. If we have anyone undocumented we should have a clear mechanism to regularise and then allow citizenship.

    Stop posting this discredited canard.

    This has been utterly discredited in the UK where a UCL study found that Non-EU migrants took out £120 billion more in benefits from 1995-2011 than they contributed in taxes.

    Conversely, EU migrants paid in a surplus of £20 billion during that period.

    As a group, Non-EU migrants are not going to be paying for your pension. Or mine. Or anyone's.


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    #8073
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    Happydays2020 wrote: »
    Unless we want to have crappy pensions and greater poverty our demographics mean we will need a higher working population in 20 years so we will end up with a fa more multi cultural society.

    Except we don't. Apply some simple logic. As time passes, advances in technology, automation, and AI, will decrease the demands for employees, not increase those demands. Many of the roles that people engage in today, can be automated, especially, those roles which migrants tend to engage in.

    I'll give a simple example. You go to a restaurant, sit that the table, scan the QR code, pick your food from the menu, and then get it from the collection point. The cost is deducted immediately from your phones account, which is linked to your bank account. No need for waiters. No need for a cashier. Even in some cases, no need for the chef, since many foods can be prepared on the spot by the machines. All that's needed is a contract for maintenance, and a single person to present the human side of the restaurant. These kind of places are already available in many countries, especially in Asia... and they'll come to Ireland eventually (although the scanning of the QR code for the ordering and payment is already here). Such systems are even more likely to be implemented due to covid, and that there will likely be other pandemics in the future.

    Ireland, and many other semi-modern nations, are highly likely to adapt to the changes in technology, which means a decline in demand for low-skilled workers, and so, increasing the demand on welfare or other services. So, where do these people get work from? And, before you say that they can be educated/upskilled, look at the efforts throughout Europe to educate migrants, and the rates of failure on that score. Hell, upskilling Irish people who are unemployed, has been facing problems for years.

    The crappy pensions will happen anyway. Costs in Ireland are continuing to increase... I've seen little effort by the government to decrease costs, and expenditure by the government is also increasing, which means greater need for tax on the general population, because they won't want to hit the corporations hard, and even if they did, it still wouldn't be enough. Rising costs of living in Ireland will ensure that, even should the pension remain as it is today (which is extremely doubtful), the actual value of that pension will decline.

    Oh. and as for greater poverty, migrants tend to fall towards the bottom of the socio-economic part of our society. So, greater poverty will occur by allowing in such workers. Now... if you mean skilled migrants for whom there will be long-term employment (the potential for employment again should they lose a position), then that's a different thing, and should be noted as such.
    I think this is a great thing. We should embrace it. If we have anyone undocumented we should have a clear mechanism to regularise and then allow citizenship.

    Why? Come on, gimme some details as opposed to a vague statement.


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    #8074
    Swindled
    Closed Accounts Posts: 374 ✭✭Swindled


    Happydays2020 wrote: »
    Unless we want to have crappy pensions and greater poverty our demographics mean we will need a higher working population in 20 years so we will end up with a fa more multi cultural society.

    I think this is a great thing. We should embrace it. If we have anyone undocumented we should have a clear mechanism to regularise and then allow citizenship.

    Your are literally a half wit if you really believe mass immigration from the third world is going to be good for the Irish economy, pensions, society, communities and Irish culture. Never mind, illegal and undocumented mass immigration.

    Rochdale and Bradford ? they are the embodiment and outcome of your desired polices and already have everything you desire for here. Something to look forward to.


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    #8075
    jmayo
    Registered Users Posts: 13,186 ✭✭✭✭jmayo


    Happydays2020 wrote: »
    Unless we want to have crappy pensions and greater poverty our demographics mean we will need a higher working population in 20 years so we will end up with a fa more multi cultural society.

    I think this is a great thing. We should embrace it. If we have anyone undocumented we should have a clear mechanism to regularise and then allow citizenship.

    That is the biggest crock of bullshyte going.

    You might as well add in that they are all going to be engineers, doctors, scientists while you are at it. :rolleyes:

    And as someone else said why don't we make it easier for natives (i.e. Europeans) to have children than importing someone else to do it.

    Someone else usually with poor education, little employment prospects (especially now with growing automation and shifting employment to cheap economies) and even worse with an alien cultural background that will not even try integrate with the natives.

    All we are doing is importing trouble.
    And those lessons are apparent for all to see in other countries.
    Nah we have numpties in those countries and a huge number here who will persist to the bitter end.

    I am not allowed discuss …



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    #8076
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    jmayo wrote: »
    And as someone else said why don't we make it easier for natives (i.e. Europeans) to have children than importing someone else to do it.
    .

    Actually, why don't we advertise and provide funding for Irish people to return to Ireland? All those Irish who left during/after the banking crash, or later. (Funding to help them get established, find work etc)

    I always get the feeling the focus is on providing for foreigners to come to Ireland, as opposed to retaining the Irish already in Ireland, or to entice Irish people abroad to return.


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    #8077
    gw80
    Registered Users Posts: 1,026 ✭✭✭gw80


    [Deleted User] wrote: »
    Actually, why don't we advertise and provide funding for Irish people to return to Ireland? All those Irish who left during/after the banking crash, or later. (Funding to help them get established, find work etc)

    I always get the feeling the focus is on providing for foreigners to come to Ireland, as opposed to retaining the Irish already in Ireland, or to entice Irish people abroad to return.

    I don't know about that klaz.
    Some people might not like the idea of rewarding the people who left the country when times got hard.


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    #8078
    Wibbs
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,159 Mod ✭✭✭✭Wibbs


    Happydays2020 wrote: »
    Unless we want to have crappy pensions and greater poverty our demographics mean we will need a higher working population in 20 years so we will end up with a fa more multi cultural society.
    Nope. Afraid not. 1) we have one of the highest native birth rates in the EU, so that part of the diversity is great playbook doesn't fly here to nearly the same extent and 2) Skilled and legal migration, which is mostly from the EU and first world adds to the coffers, unskilled and illegal doesn't. It costs money.
    I think this is a great thing. We should embrace it.
    Why? Please explain why is such a "great thing"? For such a great thing it seems it's remarkably hard to list the positives beyond "more exotic people and exotic food".
    If we have anyone undocumented we should have a clear mechanism to regularise and then allow citizenship.
    Undocumented means illegal immigrants who either came here illegally, or stayed here illegally, who are almost certainly working off the books, not paying tax in the black economy, which is also illegal. Would you prosecute native Irish people for illegal tax evasion and illegally working in the black economy? If so, then why are you so open to rewarding law breaking in non Irish people?

    The level of unbelievably simplistic thinking and cognitive dissonance around this subject is both baffling and worrying.

    Rejoice in the awareness of feeling stupid, for that’s how you end up learning new things. If you’re not aware you’re stupid, you probably are.



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    #8079
    Swindled
    Closed Accounts Posts: 374 ✭✭Swindled


    Deleted User wrote: »
    Actually, why don't we advertise and provide funding for Irish people to return to Ireland? All those Irish who left during/after the banking crash, or later. (Funding to help them get established, find work etc)

    I always get the feeling the focus is on providing for foreigners to come to Ireland, as opposed to retaining the Irish already in Ireland, or to entice Irish people abroad to return.

    It's utterly perverse. Thousands of our young Irish people are forced to emigrate every year due to no prospect of a decent job or their own house / family, and yet we think the great solution to all this is immigration from the third world, instead of sorting out and improving our own respective countries.


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    #8080
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 18,749 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Swindled wrote: »
    It's utterly perverse. Thousands of our young Irish people are forced to emigrate every year due to no prospect of a decent job or their own house / family, and yet we think the great solution to all this is immigration from the third world, instead of sorting out and improving our own respective countries.

    There are not thousands of Irish people forced to emigrate. That's a crock of you know what!
    Thousands do, but not because they are forced.


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    #8081
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    gw80 wrote: »
    I don't know about that klaz.
    Some people might not like the idea of rewarding the people who left the country when times got hard.

    Seems a rather idiotic attitude TBH. Isn't it better that people leave, than stay on welfare, building personal debt, and likely losing their mortgage? Never mind, the money that came into Ireland from people working abroad, by helping the families they left behind. Those people who left, helped Ireland to recover since it lessened their burden to the State.

    And by encouraging them to return, you bring back skilled/educated labor who already share the common values and attitudes within Irish/western culture.


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    #8082
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 18,749 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Happydays2020 wrote: »
    Unless we want to have crappy pensions and greater poverty our demographics mean we will need a higher working population in 20 years so we will end up with a fa more multi cultural society.

    I think this is a great thing. We should embrace it. If we have anyone undocumented we should have a clear mechanism to regularise and then allow citizenship.

    Do you see all the replies to you? All talk about low paid or unskilled migrants. Or illegal immigrants. Because that's what they automatically think when anyone mentions immigrants. In their heads, immigrants are a drain on our society. And they will try to justify that belief.
    Even though you didn't mention anything about that.


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    #8083
    gw80
    Registered Users Posts: 1,026 ✭✭✭gw80


    [Deleted User] wrote: »
    Seems a rather idiotic attitude TBH. Isn't it better that people leave, than stay on welfare, building personal debt, and likely losing their mortgage? Never mind, the money that came into Ireland from people working abroad, by helping the families they left behind. Those people who left, helped Ireland to recover since it lessened their burden to the State.

    And by encouraging them to return, you bring back skilled/educated labor who already share the common values and attitudes within Irish/western culture.

    I know and I agree with you but I would assume there would be some resentment from some quarters,


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    #8084
    gw80
    Registered Users Posts: 1,026 ✭✭✭gw80


    bubblypop wrote: »
    Do you see all the replies to you? All talk about low paid or unskilled migrants. Or illegal immigrants. Because that's what they automatically think when anyone mentions immigrants. In their heads, immigrants are a drain on our society. And they will try to justify that belief.
    Even though you didn't mention anything about that.

    A lot of people also asked what is so great about a multicultural country, the poster has not come back with anything, maybe you could answer?


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    #8085
    Wibbs
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,159 Mod ✭✭✭✭Wibbs


    Salvation Tambourine wrote: »
    Reading that was really weird.
    One NGO parroting another NGO's instructions on how to game the system. Only if you're not Irish of course. Free exoticasympathy pass going on there. A lot of these NGO's seem to be staffed by social studies graduates so not such a shock really and there's too damned many of them operating in this country as an employment scheme for same.
    "Unfortunately" someone not legally allowed live in the state can't receive free money from the state. As if there's something fundamentally wrong with this outcome. It's absolutely bizarre.
    Oh it is and surely it's skirting around legalities too giving instructions to undocu... sorry illegal migrants on how to flout the law of the land. Again these numpties are absolutely soaked in the oppressor/oppressed narrative, add in a quite natural charitable bent and you have the "oppressed" being given more favour, even in the language used to describe them.

    Rejoice in the awareness of feeling stupid, for that’s how you end up learning new things. If you’re not aware you’re stupid, you probably are.



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    #8086
    Wibbs
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,159 Mod ✭✭✭✭Wibbs


    bubblypop wrote: »
    Do you see all the replies to you? All talk about low paid or unskilled migrants. Or illegal immigrants. Because that's what they automatically think when anyone mentions immigrants. In their heads, immigrants are a drain on our society. And they will try to justify that belief.
    Even though you didn't mention anything about that.
    Nobody is arguing against legal, skilled and economically viable and positive migration from within the EU, or indeed without it so long as the above criteria are met. What people are arguing about is the Accepted Truth that multiculturalism is some moral and societal requirement apparently only for White Western nations and the illegal, quasi legal, unskilled uneconomically viable and negative migrants.
    gw80 wrote: »
    A lot of people also asked what is so great about a multicultural country, the poster has not come back with anything, maybe you could answer?
    Exoticism, charity, pensions, the Irish were immigrants too. That sums it up going by this thread. Or the "sure isn't it just great" with apparently zero reasons for holding this opinion. And again going by this thread the poster who made such claims won't be back, or if they are it'll quickly enough escalate to avoidance of questions raised all the way to calls of "racism", again with zero reasons given for such opinions.

    Rejoice in the awareness of feeling stupid, for that’s how you end up learning new things. If you’re not aware you’re stupid, you probably are.



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    #8087
    Swindled
    Closed Accounts Posts: 374 ✭✭Swindled


    bubblypop wrote: »
    Do you see all the replies to you? All talk about low paid or unskilled migrants. Or illegal immigrants. Because that's what they automatically think when anyone mentions immigrants. In their heads, immigrants are a drain on our society. And they will try to justify that belief.
    Even though you didn't mention anything about that.

    Where's you foot stomping, rattle throwing, demands that China, Africa, Nepal etc. become "multicultural" ?

    Do you think they have many self hating brainwashed locals, that demand they are populated / colonised by illegal western Europeans that should be provided with housing etc. ?

    The answer is they don't, and rightly so, one of the greatest things about this world are the unique cultures and nations available.


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    #8088
    DeadHand
    Registered Users Posts: 2,747 ✭✭✭DeadHand


    Don’t forget the food, lads.

    Though quite why the Irish nation had to be reduced to (at most) 80% of the population in its own homeland in order that Oisin could get a kebab hasn’t been fully explained yet.


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    #8089
    Happydays2020
    Registered Users Posts: 2,677 ✭✭✭Happydays2020


    bubblypop wrote: »
    Do you see all the replies to you? All talk about low paid or unskilled migrants. Or illegal immigrants. Because that's what they automatically think when anyone mentions immigrants. In their heads, immigrants are a drain on our society. And they will try to justify that belief.
    Even though you didn't mention anything about that.

    Yep. Narrow minded is a nice way to put it.

    Immigrants will add value. They will not drain the economy. No one wants to come here to rely on social housing and the dole.


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    #8090
    Swindled
    Closed Accounts Posts: 374 ✭✭Swindled


    DeadHand wrote: »
    Don’t forget the food, lads.

    Though quite why the Irish nation had to be reduced to (at most) 80% of the population in its own homeland in order that Oisin could get a kebab hasn’t been fully explained yet.

    yep "multiculturalism" works so well, from taco chips . . to hijabs to increased social housing demand, how could we live without these multicultural enhancements.


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    #8091
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 18,749 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Swindled wrote: »
    yep "multiculturalism" works so well, from taco chips . . to hijabs to increased social housing demand, how could we live without these multicultural enhancements.

    How very open minded of you.


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    #8092
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 18,749 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    gw80 wrote: »
    A lot of people also asked what is so great about a multicultural country, the poster has not come back with anything, maybe you could answer?

    There is nothing wrong with a multicultural country, not is there anything wrong with countries that are not.
    They are what they are. I wouldn't stop multiculturalism for any reason, not would I force it for any reason.
    It's just the nature of things.


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    #8093
    Mike Murdock
    Registered Users Posts: 921 ✭✭✭Mike Murdock


    Happydays2020 wrote: »
    Yep. Narrow minded is a nice way to put it.

    Immigrants will add value. They will not drain the economy. No one wants to come here to rely on social housing and the dole.

    You've proven nothing to back that up. Provide some tangible data to back this up.

    Your line on Non-EU immigrants or undocumented immigrants "Paying for Pensions" has been discredited by examples in Europe.


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    #8094
    Swindled
    Closed Accounts Posts: 374 ✭✭Swindled


    bubblypop wrote: »
    How very open minded of you.

    You mean like you, so "open minded" that it fell out and you have none of your own ?

    Why are you not open minded to beautifully distinct, unique, native ethic cultures worldwide, instead of trying to shove it all in a blender ?


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    #8095
    RobbieTheRobber
    Registered Users Posts: 6,826 ✭✭✭RobbieTheRobber


    Wibbs wrote: »
    Nobody is arguing against legal, skilled and economically viable and positive migration from within the EU, or indeed without it so long as the above criteria are met. What people are arguing about is the Accepted Truth that multiculturalism is some moral and societal requirement apparently only for White Western nations and the illegal, quasi legal, unskilled uneconomically viable and negative migrants.

    That is patently false if we are referring to this thread. Many posters have taken a total anti immigrant stance even including eu member states citizens.
    You might not take that view wibbs but it would be a lie to say nobody in this thread is. Which you just did.


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    #8096
    Mike Murdock
    Registered Users Posts: 921 ✭✭✭Mike Murdock


    RobbieTheRobber wrote: »
    That is patently false if we are referring to this thread. Many posters have taken a total anti immigrant stance even including eu member states citizens.
    You might not take that view wibbs but it would be a lie to say nobody in this thread is. Which you just did.

    Please show us some examples.


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    #8097
    Wibbs
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,159 Mod ✭✭✭✭Wibbs


    RobbieTheRobber wrote: »
    That is patently false if we are referring to this thread. Many posters have taken a total anti immigrant stance even including eu member states citizens.
    You might not take that view wibbs but it would be a lie to say nobody in this thread is. Which you just did.
    Vanishingly few have expressed such a stance. If "many posters" have surely it will be easy to give examples?

    Rejoice in the awareness of feeling stupid, for that’s how you end up learning new things. If you’re not aware you’re stupid, you probably are.



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    #8098
    RobbieTheRobber
    Registered Users Posts: 6,826 ✭✭✭RobbieTheRobber


    Mike Murdock wrote: »
    Please show us some examples.

    As someone else advised me, go and read the thread. If you can't find any. I'll get them for you when I feel like it.

    I'm sitting on a train to go somewhere and enjoy myself I'm not trawling through boards great big racist thread for you Mikey.
    Sorry about that pal.


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    #8099
    Mike Murdock
    Registered Users Posts: 921 ✭✭✭Mike Murdock


    RobbieTheRobber wrote: »
    As someone else advised me, go and read the thread. If you can't find any. I'll get them for you when I feel like it.

    I'm sitting on a train to go somewhere and enjoy myself I'm not trawling through boards great big racist thread for you Mikey.
    Sorry about that pal.

    Typical of Robbie.

    You got nothing.


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    #8100
    RobbieTheRobber
    Registered Users Posts: 6,826 ✭✭✭RobbieTheRobber


    Wibbs wrote: »
    Vanishingly few have expressed such a stance. If "many posters" have surely it will be easy to give examples?

    Hmm changing tack. Look I understand you probably didn't mean literally nobody. But that is what you said and that would be a lie. Vanishingly few implies more than none or nobody, right wibbs?


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    #8101
    Swindled
    Closed Accounts Posts: 374 ✭✭Swindled


    RobbieTheRobber wrote: »
    As someone else advised me, go and read the thread. If you can't find any. I'll get them for you when I feel like it.

    I'm sitting on a train to go somewhere and enjoy myself I'm not trawling through boards great big racist thread for you Mikey.
    Sorry about that pal.

    Sure just post one for the criac Robbie, just one, you can squeeze one out surely ?


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