What are your views on Multiculturalism in Ireland? - Threadbanned User List in OP

Justin Credible Darts

bubblypop wrote: »

Firstly, there is no definite figure, so no need to presume 30K.
Second, no reason to assume they will bring family, some may, some may not.
Third, what financial strain?

Wibbs addressed before i saw your post.


but suspect this will just be ignored as usual when your argument is tore apart.

enricoh

enricoh wrote: »

Maybe their employer's will double their wages though and it'll all be grand! Either that or they'll just get a new arrived illegal worker in. I know what my money is on!

Haha The thousands of employers who've been scamming and cheating our tax system for years by employing illegals won't be happy with this law change either. Thoughts and prayers with them

Luckily for them I haven't heard a word from Helen McEntee about prosecuting them. She's nice like that.

agoodpunt

Africa is a hotbed of desperate, unskilled, uneduated and some challenging medical requirements seeking a better life our system and refugee supports makes is one of europes most attractive destinations but it needs open debate when its a drain on our limited services provision
Know many asians seem to come with visas and work as professionals are english speaking who are net contributers to the ecomony why not more...

Happydays2020

Really positive in terms of multiculturalism. Great to see how someone does not feel entitled but is grateful for opportunities.

https://twitter.com/dcu/status/1396764836525182976?s=21

Wibbs

Deleted User wrote: »

Haha The thousands of employers who've been scamming and cheating our tax system for years by employing illegals won't be happy with this law change either. Thoughts and prayers with them

Luckily for them I haven't heard a word from Helen McEntee about prosecuting them. She's nice like that.

Those native Irish and immigrant employers should be roasted, but that won't happen either. So those who illegally stayed here will be rewarded and worse those who exploited them will be. Again you couldn't make this stuff up. And yet here we are.

agoodpunt wrote: »

Africa is a hotbed of desperate, unskilled, uneduated and some challenging medical requirements seeking a better life our system and refugee supports makes is one of europes most attractive destinations but it needs open debate when its a drain on our limited services provision

Africa is a huge continent with the most genetic and cultural diversity on the planet and it is also a hotbed of educated and skilled and striving people too too often fighting surreal levels of local corruption and still making a difference and many of those make up the legal migration to this nation(though the brain drain involved is worrisome). The problem is and was we got a large chunk of the illegal and quasi legal loophole types. Our own department's figures bear this out as over 90% of "asylum seekers" from that continent who apply here are rejected.

Happydays2020 wrote: »

Really positive in terms of multiculturalism. Great to see how someone does not feel entitled but is grateful for opportunities.

As it happens I know a few Nepalese in passing, scarily bright and thundering workers with it. Of those I met fluency in multiple languages was in play, but I suspect "entitlement" wouldn't translate for them in any of them. All of them came here legally and I'll lay odds that chap and his ma and da did.

Feel good individual success stories do not the bigger picture make. Though such are often trotted out by the vested interests and the naive as to illustrate how great multiculturalism as an overall concept is.

Swindled

Deleted User wrote: »

Yes, Ireland is a pretty damn good country, all things considered... but there's also a lot of negatives, which are driving people elsewhere. In turn, there's demand for foreign skilled workers.

Well that is one solution, perhaps we should all leave and let the third world run it, and leave it to them. I'm sure it'll do well. We can then pretend we're another nationality / ethnicity elsewhere.

bobbysands81

Swindled wrote: »

Actually it isn't literally hundreds of them in the large multinational I worked in. 99% were jobs/skills that could easily have been done by local graduates.

You don’t even have a basic grasp of immigration and employment laws in Ireland.

You do realise that employment permits can only issue to people for occupations where we have a shortage of qualified people to undertake?

Generally, but not always, these occupations are for skilled roles (there are limited exceptions to this) and remuneration is generally at a minimum of €30k (again limited exceptions for some roles at 22k and 27.5k) and often in excess of €64k for a Critical Skills Permit.

We give more permits for Critical Skills roles than for any other permit type and from memory approx 45% of all employment permits are for these critical skills.

The next most popular permit is the General Employment Permit which is generally pitched at €30k... but occupation which gets the most General Permits is a Doctor... and as you know Doctors get paid well in advance of €30k per year.

bubblypop

bubblypop wrote: »

The majority of people here illegaly, entered the country through legal chanels. Very few enter illegally. Why would they?

I'm not sure "people from third world countries who we give study and visit visas to are doing so fraudulently, and refuse to leave when their time is up, it's not technically illegal migration" is quite the argument-winner you think it is.

We should have a quota of visas for each country.

Say we have a quota of 10,000 visas for Madeupstan each year, 5,000 for tourism and 5,000 for study. If one doesn't leave, the next year's quota is 9,999.

The extra visa goes to Imaginaryland, which had a quota of 30 visas, all of which left when their time was up.

Visa cheats cheat us all. Let's make it that visa cheats are cheating their own countrymen out of studying in or visiting Ireland.

Swindled

bobbysands81 wrote: »

You don’t even have a basic grasp of immigration and employment laws in Ireland.

You do realise that employment permits can only issue to people for occupations where we have a shortage of qualified people to undertake?

Oh but I do, that's the problem, I watched hundreds recruited at our workplace (large multinational) over the years for 32k, on the pretence the skills were not available locally, which was bull, because the local colleges were turning out very capable Irish graduates who were sending in CV's left right and centre looking for a start in life. They would have been perfect for 99% of the jobs, but the employer knew they could screw over the foreign workers more easily and hold the Visa renewal etc. over them, and they did exactly that.

This notion that Ireland can't produce enough capable young Irish people to be Doctors, engineers, Nurses, etc. and we should take them from countries that badly need their own, is bullshyte on so many levels.

Swindled

Swindled wrote: »

Well that is one solution, perhaps we should all leave and let the third world run it, and leave it to them. I'm sure it'll do well. We can then pretend we're another nationality / ethnicity elsewhere.

Now... I'm well known on this thread for my opposition to multiculturalism. I'm also very much in favor of stricter enforced measures regarding immigration, and also for vetting migrants before citizenship is given.

You're doing the same thing the pro-immigration crowd do. You're exaggerating. Immigration for work is a good thing. When migrants arrive with work organised beforehand, with their visa tied to their employment, that's a positive for Ireland. They'll stay a few years, and then move on. The same way that I've lived/worked in China for a decade, with zero desire to live there forever. (but I still needed to renew my visa every year)

Ireland gains skills or people with experience that is in short supply here. And being a competitive based environment, those immigrants can lose their jobs or fail to find new ones, as Irish people educate themselves to meet the demands of the environment, and so, those migrants move on to other countries like the UK or Germany.. with the same expectations. And in spite of what you seem to believe, Ireland as a small nation, will experience shortages of skilled/talented individuals in a wide range of roles.

The problem is when we have a government that wants those migrants to settle. To live here permanently, have families, etc. The attention is not given to temporary limited visas but rather to encourage people towards citizenship.

As for the Irish who leave, they gain experience/education/etc from living abroad, which, if they return, can contribute to the nation. For example, I graduated from an IT/RTC (when it wasn't an University, which was fairly common) in Ireland 27 years ago, which was the best available for me at the time. Since then, I've gained a Masters and another degree from two high listed universities abroad... which I would have struggled to get in Ireland for all manner of reasons (financial, availability, etc), in addition to working in roles, which generally weren't available here because there wasn't much of an industry in it at that time. Sure, things have changed in recent years, but a lot of that has happened due to Irish (or foreigners) coming here to start businesses which weren't common before.

The point is not to go overboard with the objections. Ireland should be doing the same as most non-western nations. Placing a higher value on citizenship. Restricting immigration for the vast majority of people to employment based visas, with limited time associated... and having requirements for education (like the minimum of a Bachelor) to weed out those who would provide very little value to the country.

But still with the objective of attracting talent to benefit the nation. Not bringing in people with dubious educational backgrounds, or people who will struggle to find employment.

Swindled

You can dry up klaz with the pathetic thanks fishing/virtue signalling and silly patronisation , this is a discussion forum not a migration policy document submission.

I'm sure the Chinese government mounted a big campaign to have you considered Chinese instead of a foreigner, brought there for a strict purpose.

As you point out, it is indeed a discussion site so no need to get personal

Swindled

Swindled wrote: »

You can dry up klaz with the pathetic thanks fishing/virtue signalling and silly patronisation , this is a discussion forum not a migration policy document

Huh?

Ok... Quote me, as to what appears to you as being virtue signalling. As for the rest, meh. Attack the post, not the poster. If you can, that is. :rolleyes:

Gremlinertia

This thread has become a bicker-fest the last few pages. Up the standard of posting or more cards will be handed out. Back up your statements and do not get personal

Happydays2020

Happydays2020 wrote: »

Really positive in terms of multiculturalism. Great to see how someone does not feel entitled but is grateful for opportunities.

https://twitter.com/dcu/status/1396764836525182976?s=21

Reduced points to get onto a course means some irish kid with out a pr video got bumped off the course.

Is this a multicultural story or a story of a Nepalese family assimilating?

ThunbergsAreGo

bobbysands81 wrote: »

Of all the non-EU nationals that came to Ireland to work last year do people know what occupation topped the list? Anyone know what occupation came second?

Doctors topped the list.

Nurses were second.

Both added together accounted for nearly one third of all employment permits issued. ICT jobs, mostly highly paid roles, accounted for almost a further third.

Pesky highly paid foreigners coming over here and adding value to our society.

Very interesting, can you provide a source?

Mike Murdock

bobbysands81 wrote: »

You don’t even have a basic grasp of immigration and employment laws in Ireland.

You do realise that employment permits can only issue to people for occupations where we have a shortage of qualified people to undertake?

Generally, but not always, these occupations are for skilled roles (there are limited exceptions to this) and remuneration is generally at a minimum of €30k (again limited exceptions for some roles at 22k and 27.5k) and often in excess of €64k for a Critical Skills Permit.

We give more permits for Critical Skills roles than for any other permit type and from memory approx 45% of all employment permits are for these critical skills.

The next most popular permit is the General Employment Permit which is generally pitched at €30k... but occupation which gets the most General Permits is a Doctor... and as you know Doctors get paid well in advance of €30k per year.

Bobby, most people on this thread could not give a toss where someone comes from as long as they come here through legal channels, have skills we actively need, don't need the Government to provide housing or other benefits and pay immediately into the tax take.

The_Kew_Tour

I see the RTÉ website now have their own dedicated section on the Irish being racist.

It’s a one way street.

Things like this don’t help, they only fuel it.

The likes of the RTÉ and media don’t seem aware that all they doing is causing division, or are they doing it on purpose? I don’t know, surely they ain’t that stupid?

I’m not sure if any of you saw it but I remember seeing ad in cinema on racism a about 18 months back. Again it was just examples of Irish on others. It was a us v them. It’s not helping when it feels you can’t breath without people labelling others facist or far right.

My missus ain’t even from this country and even she finds it weird the obsession we have of foreigners when we have huge problems here alone in Housing, health and infrastructure.

I don’t care where you are from and world is changing and let’s just get on, but making it out that it’s the KKK Facist Racist Irish versus the good people of the rest of the world is not way forward.

The_Kew_Tour

The_Kew_Tour wrote: »

I see the RTÉ website now have their own dedicated section on the Irish being racist.

It’s a one way street.

Things like this don’t help, they only fuel it.

The likes of the RTÉ and media don’t seem aware that all they doing is causing division, or are they doing it on purpose? I don’t know, surely they ain’t that stupid?

I’m not sure if any of you saw it but I remember seeing ad in cinema on racism a about 18 months back. Again it was just examples of Irish on others. It was a us v them. It’s not helping when it feels you can’t breath without people labelling others facist or far right.

My missus ain’t even from this country and even she finds it weird the obsession we have of foreigners when we have huge problems here alone in Housing, health and infrastructure.

I don’t care where you are from and world is changing and let’s just get on, but making it out that it’s the KKK Facist Racist Irish versus the good people of the rest of the world is not way forward.

Organizations like RTE and certain newspaper outlets will be ultimately responsible for creating further divisions in this country. I don't watch them at all if I can help it. They are becoming less relevant though especially with the younger generations coming through.

Fandymo

Annasopra wrote: »

Going through a legal process of regularisation is absolutely showing respect for the law

Don’t pay tax for 5/10 years and then contact revenue and explain that you now want to start paying, see if they let you off with the 5/10 years you owe as you are now “showing respect for the law”.

Fandymo

Annasopra wrote: »

This is another false claim. The proposed scheme has been announced but not yet finalised - It is false to say "they've been granted permission to stay" and to claim with certainty that 20,000 have been granted this. We dont know for certain how many will be given regularisation but the claims that it has happened and that 20,000 have been given it are false.

Helen McEntee who signed up to this ludicrous scheme has said that she estimates that 17k will qualify for it. That’s 3k off the above estimate. Is the Justice Minister willingly spreading false information??

Mike Murdock

Fandymo wrote: »

Helen McEntee who signed up to this ludicrous scheme has said that she estimates that 17k will qualify for it. That’s 3k off the above estimate. Is the Justice Minister willingly spreading false information??

She's a politician. When they open their mouths, they are lying.

Fandymo

Mike Murdock wrote: »

She's a politician. When they open their mouths, they are lying.

So the white paper she talked about when mentioning 17k undocumented (illegals) she was lying??

Swindled

Fandymo wrote: »

So the white paper she talked about when mentioning 17k undocumented (illegals) she was lying??

Well either she is wrong or the migrant council is, they claim 30k, or perhaps both of them are.

Wibbs

Deleted User wrote: »

Ireland should be doing the same as most non-western nations. Placing a higher value on citizenship. Restricting immigration for the vast majority of people to employment based visas, with limited time associated... and having requirements for education (like the minimum of a Bachelor) to weed out those who would provide very little value to the country.

But still with the objective of attracting talent to benefit the nation. Not bringing in people with dubious educational backgrounds, or people who will struggle to find employment.

This in a nutshell. We've already sowed the seeds of negatives around multiculturalism, no need to add to it.

The_Kew_Tour wrote: »

I see the RTÉ website now have their own dedicated section on the Irish being racist.

It's mostly a lack of imagination on their part and following the current herd trend of race relations and the oppressed narrative. Any advice on the matter that they'll get will come from NGO's who will parrot the same spiel. Add in minor Irish "celebs" looking for their lifeblood, attention and here we are. And as usual RTE and the chattering classes will be running on a delay compared to the rest of Europe and the world.

bobbysands81

Swindled wrote: »

Oh but I do, that's the problem, I watched hundreds recruited at our workplace (large multinational) over the years for 32k, on the pretence the skills were not available locally, which was bull, because the local colleges were turning out very capable Irish graduates who were sending in CV's left right and centre looking for a start in life. They would have been perfect for 99% of the jobs, but the employer knew they could screw over the foreign workers more easily and hold the Visa renewal etc. over them, and they did exactly that.

This notion that Ireland can't produce enough capable young Irish people to be Doctors, engineers, Nurses, etc. and we should take them from countries that badly need their own, is bullshyte on so many levels.

You do realise that the Critical Skills List and the Ineligible Occupations List are reviewed twice a year? The reviews are evidence based using data from the CSO, SOLAS, and loads of other places?

Your IT multinational has to prove that they have tried to recruit in Ireland before they can apply for a General Employment Permit, there has to be verified labour shortages in the area in order to even be able to apply for an employment permit for that role. If there are no shortages, and the role is on the Ineligible List for Occupations, then it’s not possible to apply for an employment permit.

We are quite unique in that we have an Ineligible List so that the overwhelming majority of unskilled jobs are not eligible for employment permits?

As for Doctors, nurses and engineers, we have verified shortages in all these areas, thousands of non-EU doctors alone came to the country last year, the highest of any single occupation. Our health service is utterly reliant on these people.

As for holding the “visa renewal” over them, your choice of terminology shows you really don’t know what you’re talking about. An employee has to remain 12 months with their first employer but after that is free to move to any other employer they want... there is no “hold” over the employer as you maintain.

bobbysands81

ThunbergsAreGo wrote: »

Very interesting, can you provide a source?

Yes.

https://enterprise.gov.ie/en/Publications/Publication-files/Permits-by-Sector-2021.xlsx

Wibbs

Swindled wrote: »

This notion that Ireland can't produce enough capable young Irish people to be Doctors, engineers, Nurses, etc. and we should take them from countries that badly need their own, is bullshyte on so many levels.

We can and do produce them, but a lot of them leave for greener pastures like Australia for better pay and working conditions. Just like many extra EU medical staff come here for the same reasons.

ArthurDayne

Mike Murdock wrote: »

Bobby, most people on this thread could not give a toss where someone comes from as long as they come here through legal channels, have skills we actively need, don't need the Government to provide housing or other benefits and pay immediately into the tax take.

I guess though that this is where there seems to be a disconnect on this thread. It’s sometimes hard to decipher from posters whether their problem is really multiculturalism at all, or simply illegal / lower skilled immigration.

If every single migrant who came to Ireland did so legally, had skills we actively need, didn’t need Government to provide housing or other benefits and pay immediately into the tax take ...then would that be OK? It seems to me, in that context, your problem isn’t so much multiculturalism but simply the stringency of the immigration system — which are different things.

Wibbs

ArthurDayne wrote: »

It’s sometimes hard to decipher from posters whether their problem is really multiculturalism at all, or simply illegal / lower skilled immigration.

The implementation of multiculturalism tends to lead to that though.

If every single migrant who came to Ireland did so legally, had skills we actively need, didn’t need Government to provide housing or other benefits and pay immediately into the tax take ...then would that be OK? It seems to me, in that context, your problem isn’t so much multiculturalism but simply the stringency of the immigration system — which are different things.

I'd still have issues around multiculturalism though. Specifically to do with the numbers involved, which inevitably leads to ghettoisation and the extra social problems that come from that, though again only allowing legal skilled/required people would mitigate that too. That horse has already bolted here though, as we had a decade odd long period where legality was either flouted, or loopholed and we didn't have nearly so stringent access to this country.

ArthurDayne

ArthurDayne wrote: »

I guess though that this is where there seems to be a disconnect on this thread. It’s sometimes hard to decipher from posters whether their problem is really multiculturalism at all, or simply illegal / lower skilled immigration.

If every single migrant who came to Ireland did so legally, had skills we actively need, didn’t need Government to provide housing or other benefits and pay immediately into the tax take ...then would that be OK? It seems to me, in that context, your problem isn’t so much multiculturalism but simply the stringency of the immigration system — which are different things.

Oh no.
I actually thought that for a while, that posters actually just had issues with illegal immigrants etc. But no, they just have issues with non Irish living here.