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What are your views on Multiculturalism in Ireland? - Threadbanned User List in OP
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Oh no.
I actually thought that for a while, that posters actually just had issues with illegal immigrants etc. But no, they just have issues with non Irish living here.
Can you point out these posts please? I would like to see examples of such racism/xenophobia if you have them.
It's an extraordinary accusation which would require proof to confirm as true rather than dismiss as someone shouting "racism" at people they disagree with.0 -
Oh no.
I actually thought that for a while, that posters actually just had issues with illegal immigrants etc. But no, they just have issues with non Irish living here.
Yet another blatant lie from you.
People have an issue with the numbers and are calling for more controls similar to what is applied in many other first world nations.0 -
ArthurDayne wrote: »I guess though that this is where there seems to be a disconnect on this thread. It’s sometimes hard to decipher from posters whether their problem is really multiculturalism at all, or simply illegal / lower skilled immigration.
If every single migrant who came to Ireland did so legally, had skills we actively need, didn’t need Government to provide housing or other benefits and pay immediately into the tax take ...then would that be OK? It seems to me, in that context, your problem isn’t so much multiculturalism but simply the stringency of the immigration system — which are different things.
For me, yes. I don't care where you come from. The colour of your skin. Which religion you follow.
Come in, add your needed high value-skills, pay your taxes, follow the law of the land, and more power to you.0 -
ArthurDayne wrote: »I guess though that this is where there seems to be a disconnect on this thread. It’s sometimes hard to decipher from posters whether their problem is really multiculturalism at all, or simply illegal / lower skilled immigration.
Why can't we have a problem with both? Rather than multiculturalism or illegal/lower skilled immigration.0 -
[Deleted User] wrote: »Can you point out these posts please? I would like to see examples of such racism/xenophobia if you have them.
It's an extraordinary accusation which would require proof to confirm as true rather than dismiss as someone shouting "racism" at people they disagree with.
I didn't say racism. If you think that is racism, fair enough. Those posters don't believe they are racist.
Both klaz and wibbs have just posted their reasons.0 -
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The implementation of multiculturalism tends to lead to that though.
I'd still have issues around multiculturalism though. Specifically to do with the numbers involved, which inevitably leads to ghettoisation and the extra social problems that come from that, though again only allowing legal skilled/required people would mitigate that too. That horse has already bolted here though, as we had a decade odd long period where legality was either flouted, or loopholed and we didn't have nearly so stringent access to this country.
But you’re sort of saying it yourself here aren’t you? It would mitigate it. It seems perfectly reasonable to surmise that if all migrants came to Ireland with jobs and means then they would be able to afford by and large the same level of rented accommodation in places like Dublin that “native” Irish people in similar socioeconomic conditions could. I don’t often see the detractors of multiculturalism criticising the paradigm of foreign workers living in nice flats in Grand Canal Dock — it’s always seems to be focused on the more deprived end of the migrant socioeconomic scale where ghettoisation, illegal immigration, criminality etc seem to be generally more likely to be found.
If multiculturalism is the problem full stop, then the existence of foreign workers in Ireland is problematic full stop — regardless of their financial means or the legality of their being in the State. In that regard, the solution would simply be to take policy decisions, even if it meant leaving the EU, to deter foreign workers from coming here at all. If they stop coming here, then you have put the brakes on multiculturalism in Ireland indefinitely.
But if the problem is illegal immigration and / or the presence in Ireland of poor migrants — then we aren’t talking about multiculturalism being a problem, but the entry into the country of poorer migrants who may present more of a burden on State resources.0 -
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As someone clever used to say "Culture is not your friend". The question "What are your views on Multiculturalism in Ireland" is not the right question to ask. You should ask yourself what purpose does a culture serve and is it worth it?
History shows us that culture turns intelligent people into bigots and murderers. All it takes is a bunch of deranged "leaders" fighting for money and power. They instill fear into our hearts and heads, usually using cultural queues, and tragedies then happen.
Culture is not a universal constant. It is a mental construct that spawned a vicious circle we can't seem to break out of. If you look at the map of the World, you can see how messed up a concept culture is. It divides families and friends, it creates unspeakable differences, it hinders human development and fuels wars. So instead of focusing on multiculturalism, we should focus on more universal issues, like the quality of life, freedom of expression, freedom of travel and all freedoms that an abstract thinking species, able to emulate and dominate all life on the planet, should avail of. Forget culture and get on with all people of all races. And if in doubt, start with "the man in the mirror."0 -
The Forget culture and get on with all people of all races. And if in doubt, start with "the man in the mirror."
It don't matter if you're "black or white". Anyone, regardless of culture can be a "smooth criminal" or simply "Bad". I just want them to "Leave me Alone" and if they try to come here illegally, they should be told to "Beat it".
Trouble is, with our generous welfare system, they "don't stop til they get enough" and it annoys me. It's just the "way they make me feel". Makes me want to "scream".
Ugh sorry.0 -
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Deleted User wrote: »Why can't we have a problem with both? Rather than multiculturalism or illegal/lower skilled immigration.
The issue really is that the thread is about multiculturalism, but in many cases it's used as an interchangeable term with immigration (illegal and legal). Someone could be opposed to multiculturalism but support immigration. Or support multiculturalism and oppose illegal immigration. And so on...0 -
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Chips Lovell wrote: »The issue really is that the thread is about multiculturalism, but in many cases it's used as an interchangeable term with immigration (illegal and legal).
Really? I haven't seen that. People use the terms differently. They do link/connect the problems associated with both, but I haven't seen posters using it as an interchangeable term.
Could you post up an example, from say.. four different posters, where they've done that?Someone could be opposed to multiculturalism but support immigration. Or support multiculturalism and oppose illegal immigration. And so on...
Yup. Not sure why you're making such a point.0 -
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Indeed, but show me a multicultural nation in Europe where similar socioeconomic migration is in play and lower socioeconomic migration isn't. You quite simply can't discuss one without the other and the wider debate itself by the government and NGO's almost exclusively focuses on that. Naturally as it is part and parcel of multiculturalism as it is applied in the west. Never mind that quite the percentage of that higher socioeconomic demographic aren't permanent residents. If Google left in the morning a large percentage of the housing in that area would be vacant in jig time.ArthurDayne wrote: »But you’re sort of saying it yourself here aren’t you? It would mitigate it. It seems perfectly reasonable to surmise that if all migrants came to Ireland with jobs and means then they would be able to afford by and large the same level of rented accommodation in places like Dublin that “native” Irish people in similar socioeconomic conditions could. I don’t often see the detractors of multiculturalism criticising the paradigm of foreign workers living in nice flats in Grand Canal Dock — it’s always seems to be focused on the more deprived end of the migrant socioeconomic scale where ghettoisation, illegal immigration, criminality etc seem to be generally more likely to be found.
That's before we get to the dialogue of what it means to be of a culture or of being native - and this is exclusively a western thing and recent with it - and how this is framed within the multicultural politic. I note you put native in inverted commas. Would you be as comfortable putting a native of Accra in same? We had the example of a Dublin city councillor stating that it was great that his area had more non Irish faces. Because why? Some sections in White Western thought seem to have this exoticism fetish for no obvious reasons.Rejoice in the awareness of feeling stupid, for that’s how you end up learning new things. If you’re not aware you’re stupid, you probably are.
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Deleted User wrote: »Trouble is, with our generous welfare system, they "don't stop til they get enough" and it annoys me. It's just the "way they make me feel". Makes me want to "scream".
Then make the politicians fix the welfare system. It's not a coincidence that things are the way they are. Politicians want to have it this way. It makes us fear and suspect all foreigners. People should look up the Nuremberg trials. The way the nazis made doctors, lawyers and pretty much everyone in Germany into brutal war criminals was by fear. Hermann Göring, the commander-in-chief of the Luftwaffe (air force) said it very clearly.
The governments job is to keep us on our toes and pretty scared all the time. Noam Chomsky also talk about this. So don't fall for the pseudo issues like multiculturalism. It's a concept for spreading and maintaining fear. We're first and foremost people. The foreigners will never drain the system. It is the politicians and political commentators that scare you with that to make sure you can be manipulated and used like a tool.0 -
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The clever guy you reference was an aged hippie chap marinated in the 1960's in various herbs and spices of that age talking almost exclusively about the mass consumer culture of America.As someone clever used to say "Culture is not your friend".
Not more of this negative revisionist stuff(and usually pointed at western culture)... The same culture you decry gave us those very things you talk about; quality of life, freedom of expression, freedom of travel and every single thing you put value on in your life. The clothes you stand in, the room you're in, the arts and food and politics you consume, the machine you're typing that on and in the language you're typing it in came from culture. It gave us all the arts and sciences and philosophies too, but no, let us just look at the negatives like disconnected Eeyores. Culture formed and evolved us as a species and yer man couldn't have made his statement without it. It formed him to the degree you can pinpoint the time and place in one culture that his statement sprang from.The question "What are your views on Multiculturalism in Ireland" is not the right question to ask. You should ask yourself what purpose does a culture serve and is it worth it?
History shows us that culture turns intelligent people into bigots and murderers. All it takes is a bunch of deranged "leaders" fighting for money and power. They instill fear into our hearts and heads, usually using cultural queues, and tragedies then happen.
Culture is not a universal constant. It is a mental construct that spawned a vicious circle we can't seem to break out of. If you look at the map of the World, you can see how messed up a concept culture is. It divides families and friends, it creates unspeakable differences, it hinders human development and fuels wars. So instead of focusing on multiculturalism, we should focus on more universal issues, like the quality of life, freedom of expression, freedom of travel and all freedoms that an abstract thinking species, able to emulate and dominate all life on the planet, should avail of. Forget culture and get on with all people of all races. And if in doubt, start with "the man in the mirror."Rejoice in the awareness of feeling stupid, for that’s how you end up learning new things. If you’re not aware you’re stupid, you probably are.
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As someone clever used to say "Culture is not your friend". The question "What are your views on Multiculturalism in Ireland" is not the right question to ask. You should ask yourself what purpose does a culture serve and is it worth it?
History shows us that culture turns intelligent people into bigots and murderers. All it takes is a bunch of deranged "leaders" fighting for money and power. They instill fear into our hearts and heads, usually using cultural queues, and tragedies then happen.
Culture is not a universal constant. It is a mental construct that spawned a vicious circle we can't seem to break out of. If you look at the map of the World, you can see how messed up a concept culture is. It divides families and friends, it creates unspeakable differences, it hinders human development and fuels wars. So instead of focusing on multiculturalism, we should focus on more universal issues, like the quality of life, freedom of expression, freedom of travel and all freedoms that an abstract thinking species, able to emulate and dominate all life on the planet, should avail of. Forget culture and get on with all people of all races. And if in doubt, start with "the man in the mirror."
Hard disagree.0 -
Then make the politicians fix the welfare system. It's not a coincidence that things are the way they are. Politicians want to have it this way. It makes us fear and suspect all foreigners. People should look up the Nuremberg trials. The way the nazis made doctors, lawyers and pretty much everyone in Germany into brutal war criminals was by fear. Hermann Göring, the commander-in-chief of the Luftwaffe (air force) said it very clearly.
The governments job is to keep us on our toes and pretty scared all the time. Noam Chomsky also talk about this. So don't fall for the pseudo issues like multiculturalism. It's a concept for spreading and maintaining fear. We're first and foremost people. The foreigners will never drain the system. It is the politicians and political commentators that scare you with that to make sure you can be manipulated and used like a tool.
You've managed to name call them all there, fair play:
Nazi's
Hermann Göring
Luftwaffe
Germany
Nuremberg trials
Pseudo issues like multiculturalism (whatever that means)
And finally topped off with a shout out to Noam Chomsky0 -
Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,159 Mod ✭✭✭✭ Join Date:Posts: 59087
Never ascribe to wilful conspiracy that which can be explained by wilful indolence and narrow thinking. About the only thing career politicians want is to be re-elected.Then make the politicians fix the welfare system. It's not a coincidence that things are the way they are. Politicians want to have it this way.
Actually the suspicion of the "foreign" has a very deep root and history in humanity. Even before we started to farm and build cities it was in play. When modern humans first walked out of Africa, they didn't walk into virgin territory. There were at least three other human subspecies around. Where are they now? No politicians, no "elites" required. They merely take advantage of an existing strand in human nature.It makes us fear and suspect all foreigners.
Actually what's troubling about nazi Germany and other evil regimes is that fear is not the main driver of the regime. Not in the sense of punishment. Certainly not in Germany of the time. They plugged into human nature and knew it very well, so that ordinary people could be convinced to do extraordinary evils. Or ignore them. There was a police chief who was asked to round up Jews and other "undesirables" in his area and this did not sit well with him. So he told his men that they didn't have to do this and to go with their consciences and most did, leaving a handful of psychos and hardliners. He expected the hammer to fall on him, but it didn't. The nazis knew better and within weeks pretty much every one of them were back at their posts carrying out the original orders.People should look up the Nuremberg trials. The way the nazis made doctors, lawyers and pretty much everyone in Germany into brutal war criminals was by fear. Hermann Göring, the commander-in-chief of the Luftwaffe (air force) said it very clearly.
You're espousing a very American cultural set of notions there. This is not America.The governments job is to keep us on our toes and pretty scared all the time. Noam Chomsky also talk about this. So don't fall for the pseudo issues like multiculturalism. It's a concept for spreading and maintaining fear. We're first and foremost people. The foreigners will never drain the system. It is the politicians and political commentators that scare you with that to make sure you can be manipulated and used like a tool.Rejoice in the awareness of feeling stupid, for that’s how you end up learning new things. If you’re not aware you’re stupid, you probably are.
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We can and do produce them, but a lot of them leave for greener pastures like Australia for better pay and working conditions. Just like many extra EU medical staff come here for the same reasons.
All types of people emigrate from Ireland.
Of course we can produce them, the argument is we allegedly cannot produce enough of them, which is bullshyte. We're well able to over produce in areas like law because there is no quotas, and the number of law degrees and training has kept pace with the real world, not the 1950's demand and cosy cartel. Yes senior Irish Doctors want the cosy limited cartel cap in numbers, the same one the Irish legal profession once had, but that day is gone. So don't give me the bullshyte that a country can oversupply lawyers, but cannot produce enough Doctors and Nurses, and we should rob Doctors and Nurses from the third world.0 -
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The plain fact is though, on top of not producing enough is that of the doctors and nurses we do produce quite the number emigrate for greener pastures adding to the shortage. It's not just down to quotas. In the UK under a different system a large proportion of their doctors and nurses are not from the UK.Rejoice in the awareness of feeling stupid, for that’s how you end up learning new things. If you’re not aware you’re stupid, you probably are.
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Then make the politicians fix the welfare system. It's not a coincidence that things are the way they are. Politicians want to have it this way. It makes us fear and suspect all foreigners. People should look up the Nuremberg trials. The way the nazis made doctors, lawyers and pretty much everyone in Germany into brutal war criminals was by fear. Hermann Göring, the commander-in-chief of the Luftwaffe (air force) said it very clearly.
The governments job is to keep us on our toes and pretty scared all the time. Noam Chomsky also talk about this. So don't fall for the pseudo issues like multiculturalism. It's a concept for spreading and maintaining fear. We're first and foremost people. The foreigners will never drain the system. It is the politicians and political commentators that scare you with that to make sure you can be manipulated and used like a tool.
That's a good post. I agree totally. Although I would say that it's a smaller subsection of society that falls for it. Most people are happy with multiculturalism and the feeling of humanity progressing. The people that fall for what you say are a smaller subsection. That gets magnified on here because they are over represented. It's a bit like reviewing what you buy. Generally most people don't bother because they are happy and content with the product and their lives in general. If someone is unhappy with the product they are more likely to review it and leave a negative review. Which they are entitled to do but a small subsection of people is not going to have any effect on policies as we have seen and continue to see. Humanity is in the business of progression, not regression.0 -
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Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,159 Mod ✭✭✭✭ Join Date:Posts: 59087
That's some confidence you have. History shows us that it can be a very delicate thing. Hell, we watched Brexit unfold with our neighbour and immigration was high on the list of talking points and leanings towards leaving or not. We have debates on multiculturalism and migration going on in mainland Europe with more and more pushback against it. We're not even having the debate here. Yet. The last time migration was put to the Irish electorate in the birthright citizenship referendum it was closed off by a clear majority and a by a higher majority than in both the Repeal the 8th and SSM votes. And if it's such a "smaller subsection of society that falls for it" how come it's rarely a day that goes by without media and NGO pundits reminding us of the widespread problem of racism in Ireland?Humanity is in the business of progression, not regression.Rejoice in the awareness of feeling stupid, for that’s how you end up learning new things. If you’re not aware you’re stupid, you probably are.
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That's some confidence you have. History shows us that it can be a very delicate thing. Hell, we watched Brexit unfold with our neighbour and immigration was high on the list of talking points and leanings towards leaving or not. We have debates on multiculturalism and migration going on in mainland Europe with more and more pushback against it. We're not even having the debate here. Yet. The last time migration was put to the Irish electorate in the birthright citizenship referendum it was closed off by a clear majority and a by a higher majority than in both the Repeal the 8th and SSM votes. And if it's such a "smaller subsection of society that falls for it" how come it's rarely a day that goes by without media and NGO pundits reminding us of the widespread problem of racism in Ireland?
Amusing example of this on Newstalk this morning, had a fella on talking about the continuing issue of racism towards minorities in Ireland. The host quoted a study that reported that those of sub saharan African heritage are stopped an interacted with by A.G.S LESS than the majority Irish(caucasian) population (adjusted for population). The interviewee mis heard and went down a route of "exactly, there has always been over-policing of minority communities". When the host corrected him he basically just said "Ya, Well.. there is an over-policing of minority communities in this country" and they left it there :rolleyes:0 -
Indeed, but show me a multicultural nation in Europe where similar socioeconomic migration is in play and lower socioeconomic migration isn't. You quite simply can't discuss one without the other and the wider debate itself by the government and NGO's almost exclusively focuses on that. Naturally as it is part and parcel of multiculturalism as it is applied in the west. Never mind that quite the percentage of that higher socioeconomic demographic aren't permanent residents. If Google left in the morning a large percentage of the housing in that area would be vacant in jig time.
That's before we get to the dialogue of what it means to be of a culture or of being native - and this is exclusively a western thing and recent with it - and how this is framed within the multicultural politic. I note you put native in inverted commas. Would you be as comfortable putting a native of Accra in same? We had the example of a Dublin city councillor stating that it was great that his area had more non Irish faces. Because why? Some sections in White Western thought seem to have this exoticism fetish for no obvious reasons.
But you can discuss one without the other — and it’s the constant conflation of the two issues that muddles the argument. You can see that by the fact that, as I mentioned, people don’t really tend to focus on the full spectrum of multiculturalism — they focus on the illegal and the socioeconomically deprived end. I used to share a house in Dublin with a Ghanaian, a Mexican and a British-Lebanese — all of whom were professionals in tech, accounting and law and all of whom are still in Dublin. I would venture that if you drilled into this, some of the people reading this thread probably wouldn’t have much of an issue with that — it isn’t really the “type” of multiculturalism they have misgivings about — it’s the idea of poorly controlled immigration or asylum procedures allowing what they perceive to be a disproportionate amount of foreign nationals into the country who will place a burden on the State. Of course, there are those who would still be of the view that the presence of multiculturalism among professionals in leafy South Dublin is still a problem because they think multiculturalism is bad full stop. But that is a different camp — even if they share some or a lot of common ground on immigration policy — and one camp has a feasible future while the other does not.
In my opinion, to be against multiculturalism is to be King Canute against the tide — it is to be doomed to rant and rail against an ever changing world that is destined to become more multicultural. Irish culture will change, parts of it will disappear, new parts will be born — change driven by the Irish born and the non-Irish born. There is no stopping it — and to fantasise how much better the world would be if humans of their own free will just gave up millennia of intermingling in favour of living in entirely monocultural nations (and that successful nations wouldn’t eventually attract other peoples) is a pure fantasy.
Nonetheless, there is room in the world of reality for those who want better immigration policy. If they really want to take the fight to those who they see as the “woke” drivers of poorly managed immigration or asylum, they need to ditch the King Canutes who drag them into futile discussions on multiculturalism. That way, they might find themselves in an expanded middle ground of those who want sensible immigration policy while accepting the inevitability of multiculturalism. And then maybe you would get somewhere.0 -
ArthurDayne wrote: »But you can discuss one without the other — and it’s the constant conflation of the two issues that muddles the argument. You can see that by the fact that, as I mentioned, people don’t really tend to focus on the full spectrum of multiculturalism — they focus on the illegal and the socioeconomically deprived end. I used to share a house in Dublin with a Ghanaian, a Mexican and a British-Lebanese — all of whom were professionals in tech, accounting and law and all of whom are still in Dublin. I would venture that if you drilled into this, some of the people reading this thread probably wouldn’t have much of an issue with that — it isn’t really the “type” of multiculturalism they have misgivings about — it’s the idea of poorly controlled immigration or asylum procedures allowing what they perceive to be a disproportionate amount of foreign nationals into the country who will place a burden on the State. Of course, there are those who would still be of the view that the presence of multiculturalism among professionals in leafy South Dublin is still a problem because they think multiculturalism is bad full stop. But that is a different camp — even if they share some or a lot of common ground on immigration policy — and one camp has a feasible future while the other does not.
In my opinion, to be against multiculturalism is to be King Canute against the tide — it is to be doomed to rant and rail against an ever changing world that is destined to become more multicultural. Irish culture will change, parts of it will disappear, new parts will be born — change driven by the Irish born and the non-Irish born. There is no stopping it — and to fantasise how much better the world would be if humans of their own free will just gave up millennia of intermingling in favour of living in entirely monocultural nations (and that successful nations wouldn’t eventually attract other peoples) is a pure fantasy.
Nonetheless, there is room in the world of reality for those who want better immigration policy. If they really want to take the fight to those who they see as the “woke” drivers of poorly managed immigration or asylum, they need to ditch the King Canutes who drag them into futile discussions on multiculturalism. That way, they might find themselves in an expanded middle ground of those who want sensible immigration policy while accepting the inevitability of multiculturalism. And then maybe you would get somewhere.
Really good post here Sir. Where do you even start when it comes to debating King Canute types? Its not appealing at all which is probably why you see very few doing it. Your post here is the most sensible one I've seen in the thread.0 -
ArthurDayne wrote: »But you can discuss one without the other — and it’s the constant conflation of the two issues that muddles the argument. You can see that by the fact that, as I mentioned, people don’t really tend to focus on the full spectrum of multiculturalism — they focus on the illegal and the socioeconomically deprived end. I used to share a house in Dublin with a Ghanaian, a Mexican and a British-Lebanese — all of whom were professionals in tech, accounting and law and all of whom are still in Dublin. I would venture that if you drilled into this, some of the people reading this thread probably wouldn’t have much of an issue with that — it isn’t really the “type” of multiculturalism they have misgivings about — it’s the idea of poorly controlled immigration or asylum procedures allowing what they perceive to be a disproportionate amount of foreign nationals into the country who will place a burden on the State.
You missed the perspective that multiculturalism focuses on diversity, reinforcing cultural/national backgrounds, and so, encouraging divisions to occur. It's an opposition to assimilation, by seeking to present the differences that minority groups have, as being important distinctions which must be promoted and protected, all the while downplaying the importance of the host nations culture (nationalism is bad when it's westerners doing it). All of which, over time, encourages society towards a clash of cultures, since many cultures have different perspectives regarding the importance of certain values over others.
It's that clash, that concerns most of us... not multiculturalism as an idea. The idea is fine. The approach towards creating and managing a multicultural society is seriously flawed, and should be criticised.Of course, there are those who would still be of the view that the presence of multiculturalism among professionals in leafy South Dublin is still a problem because they think multiculturalism is bad full stop. But that is a different camp — even if they share some or a lot of common ground on immigration policy — and one camp has a feasible future while the other does not.
Ahh well, I'd question just how much interaction is truly happening between these professionals and that of the host/native population. Professionals tend to focus on their jobs, having little time to spend on other activities, whereby you can often find them seeking out others of their culture/nationality, forming groups which may include outsiders, but still tend to be rather inclusive. Also professionals, depending on their industry, and ambitions are far more likely to be mobile, in that they'll move on elsewhere after a few years, once they've ticked some particular boxes, or found a better contract.
Certain national/cultural groups integrate better than others. Take Indians/Pakistani's for example, who will be very friendly individually, but will almost immediately seek out others with similar backgrounds (Other Indians, or of their caste), to spend the majority of their time with. How much actual interaction is realistically happening there between the native group and them? Not much.In my opinion, to be against multiculturalism is to be King Canute against the tide — it is to be doomed to rant and rail against an ever changing world that is destined to become more multicultural. Irish culture will change, parts of it will disappear, new parts will be born — change driven by the Irish born and the non-Irish born. There is no stopping it — and to fantasise how much better the world would be if humans of their own free will just gave up millennia of intermingling in favour of living in entirely monocultural nations (and that successful nations wouldn’t eventually attract other peoples) is a pure fantasy.
I wouldn't be against multiculturalism, per se. I'm against badly thought-out policies, with little appreciation for the long term effects on society. When there is a dominant main culture staying strong above others, multiculturalism can work well, especially, when the majority are of complimenting cultures (ie. western who share similar values and principles towards behavior). However, multiculturalism fails badly, when there are expectations that the native culture should adapt to accommodate the needs/desires of other cultural groups, or the elevation of minority groups above that of the native group.
You see, very few people (I actually can't recall anyone suggesting it) on this thread have said anything about stopping multiculturalism. It comes up as an objection by those arguing for a pro-multiculturalism stance. As if the only other option, apart from their views, must be some kind of mono-cultural setup.
The objective is to regulate multiculturalism in a manner to produce the fewest possible negatives for the host nation.Nonetheless, there is room in the world of reality for those who want better immigration policy. If they really want to take the fight to those who they see as the “woke” drivers of poorly managed immigration or asylum, they need to ditch the King Canutes who drag them into futile discussions on multiculturalism. That way, they might find themselves in an expanded middle ground of those who want sensible immigration policy while accepting the inevitability of multiculturalism. And then maybe you would get somewhere.
Multiculturalism and immigration are separate topics, that simply meet/connect over a variety of issues. Oh, and the middle is no longer acceptable when it comes to immigration. It hasn't been for quite a long time now.0 -
Amusing example of this on Newstalk this morning, had a fella on talking about the continuing issue of racism towards minorities in Ireland. The host quoted a study that reported that those of sub saharan African heritage are stopped an interacted with by A.G.S LESS than the majority Irish(caucasian) population (adjusted for population). The interviewee mis heard and went down a route of "exactly, there has always been over-policing of minority communities". When the host corrected him he basically just said "Ya, Well.. there is an over-policing of minority communities in this country" and they left it there :rolleyes:
Do you know who host was?0 -
ArthurDayne wrote: »Nonetheless, there is room in the world of reality for those who want better immigration policy. If they really want to take the fight to those who they see as the “woke” drivers of poorly managed immigration or asylum, they need to ditch the King Canutes who drag them into futile discussions on multiculturalism. That way, they might find themselves in an expanded middle ground of those who want sensible immigration policy while accepting the inevitability of multiculturalism. And then maybe you would get somewhere.
Is multiculturalism inevitable outside of the West?
Japan?
Russia?
Kuwait?
China?
Funny that.0 -
Is multiculturalism inevitable outside of the West?
Japan?
Russia?
Kuwait?
China?
Funny that.
Of course not, they are rightly proud and protective of their individual cultures.
A westerner can work and live China / Japan all their lives, they will rightly never be called Chinese / Japanese, by those nations, and citizenship is much harder if not impossible to get. And rightly so, their country, their rules.
The terms Irish and Ireland are now becoming meaningless, if not so already.
Pádraic Pearse, the well known neo nazi racist bigot, claimed "Ireland belongs to the Irish" . . he was put up against a wall and shot for that in 1916. He would still be shot today for it.0 -
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We were told in this very thread there was no illegals in this country, another claimed some posters were racist for being anti immigration.
have any of these lies and accusations been backed up ? Of course not.
this thread has descended into the same handful of people deflecting and coming up with ludicrous statements every time one of their arguments is ripped to shreds.
Hundreds of pages later I am still waiting to hear how multiculturalism is going to benefit us, and not one valid reason was given.
Waiting to hear how the government the Irish people elected should care for foreigners more than their own people, yes a government installed by the irish people to represent the irish people are expected to put immigrants ahead of their own people according to some.
This thread is worth reading for the comedic elements these days0
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