What are your views on Multiculturalism in Ireland? - Threadbanned User List in OP

jmreire

bubblypop wrote: »

I know how you know. We had this conversation before.
And we all know people are different. And countries are different.
And we cannot tar everyone of the same nationality, faith or background with the same brush.

Anyone who has lived in multiple Islamic Countrys from the most benign form of Islam like Kosovo, to the most extreme, Afghanistan, Pakistan, Saudi etc. will have a much broader experience and understanding of Islam, the good and the bad parts. This is not tarring everyone with the same brush.

Lemon Davis lll

ThunbergsAreGo wrote: »

Where was it out of interest?

Kosovo, I'd wager

jmreire

jmreire wrote: »

Anyone who has lived in multiple Islamic Countrys from the most benign form of Islam like Kosovo, to the most extreme, Afghanistan, Pakistan, Saudi etc. will have a much broader experience and understanding of Islam, the good and the bad parts. This is not tarring everyone with the same brush.

I'm not sure what the point is? Yes there are good and bad parts.
There are good and bad parts of people too.

Lemon Davis lll

Lemon Davis lll wrote: »

Kosovo, I'd wager

Yep. Said that numerous times on thread

ArthurDayne

clytemnestra wrote: »

I found less hassle and disrespect in Muslim countries than I did in European countries with sizeable populations of Muslims who were 2nd and 3rd generation. In other words, multicultural societies and the tension and discord caused by completely different cultures trying and failing to co-exist.

In full appreciation that I don’t really know the specifics of the harassment you suffered (though it might be useful to explain that, even lightly if you feel comfortable to do so), this post does come across as simply coming to the conclusion that you are determined to come to without any bridging logic or explanation.

People are forever complaining about the youths in Dublin going about causing trouble and harassing people. I don’t always think it’s a fair characterisation of them but, undoubtedly, it does happen quite regularly. I had two friends who were very seriously attacked by a large gang of late teens on O’Connell Street one night, one of whom was hospitalised. More recently, I think by now we have all seen the images of the young women being harassed and attacked at Howth station by what at the very least appears to be a gang of mainly white youths — one woman who could easily have been killed falling under the train.

If I’m applying the logic you seem to be applying then it seems like, had these been groups of foreign kids or children of migrants etc, you would just reach the conclusion that it was due to different cultures failing to co-exist. Is that an unfair application?

Swindled

ArthurDayne wrote: »

In full appreciation that I don’t really know the specifics of the harassment you suffered (though it might be useful to explain that, even lightly if you feel comfortable to do so), this post does come across as simply coming to the conclusion that you are determined to come to without any bridging logic or explanation.

People are forever complaining about the youths in Dublin going about causing trouble and harassing people. I don’t always think it’s a fair characterisation of them but, undoubtedly, it does happen quite regularly. I had two friends who were very seriously attacked by a large gang of late teens on O’Connell Street one night, one of whom was hospitalised. More recently, I think by now we have all seen the images of the young women being harassed and attacked at Howth station by what at the very least appears to be a gang of mainly white youths — one woman who could easily have been killed falling under the train.

If I’m applying the logic you seem to be applying then it seems like, had these been groups of foreign kids or children of migrants etc, you would just reach the conclusion that it was due to different cultures failing to co-exist. Is that an unfair application?

Ah yes . . classic victim blaming of the white female

ArthurDayne

Swindled wrote: »

Ah yes . . classic victim blaming of the white female

What?

I’ve seen a few of your posts my friend and all I can say is that you really need to take a step back and relax. Absolutely nowhere in my post did I even come close to even the slightest suggestion of blaming this poster for any harassment they suffered.

Swindled

ArthurDayne wrote: »

What?

I’ve seen a few of your posts my friend and all I can say is that you really need to take a step back and relax. Absolutely nowhere in my post did I even come close to even the slightest suggestion of blaming this poster for any harassment they suffered.

I'm not your friend, and if you can't argue the point without attempting personal remarks and victim blaming, then you are the one that's need to take a step back

clytemnestra

ArthurDayne wrote: »

In full appreciation that I don’t really know the specifics of the harassment you suffered (though it might be useful to explain that, even lightly if you feel comfortable to do so), this post does come across as simply coming to the conclusion that you are determined to come to without any bridging logic or explanation.

People are forever complaining about the youths in Dublin going about causing trouble and harassing people. I don’t always think it’s a fair characterisation of them but, undoubtedly, it does happen quite regularly. I had two friends who were very seriously attacked by a large gang of late teens on O’Connell Street one night, one of whom was hospitalised. More recently, I think by now we have all seen the images of the young women being harassed and attacked at Howth station by what at the very least appears to be a gang of mainly white youths — one woman who could easily have been killed falling under the train.

If I’m applying the logic you seem to be applying then it seems like, had these been groups of foreign kids or children of migrants etc, you would just reach the conclusion that it was due to different cultures failing to co-exist. Is that an unfair application?

It was persistent sexual harassment: catcalling, obscene gestures, offering me money for sex, following me. I had never experienced anything like it in Ireland and I did not get it from the indigenous men of that European city. It was targeted at me because I was a young European woman walking around freely, while girls and women in their culture were sheltered and restricted. They had been brought up to believe European girls and women are loose, not to be respected. This situation exists in France, Germany, Belgium, Holland, Sweden and is well documented (e.g. the short film "Femme de la Rue" from Belgium. Not to mention the mass sexual assaults in Germany on NYE a few years ago, the grooming gangs in the UK. The sexual harassment and disrespect of European girls and women in their own countries by men of Muslim origin is a very plain and obvious example of a culture clash. I'm sorry it's not taken more seriously.

ArthurDayne

clytemnestra wrote: »

It was persistent sexual harassment: catcalling, obscene gestures, offering me money for sex, following me. I had never experienced anything like it in Ireland and I did not get it from the indigenous men of that European city. It was targeted at me because I was a young European woman walking around freely, while girls and women in their culture were sheltered and restricted. They had been brought up to believe European girls and women are loose, not to be respected. This situation exists in France, Germany, Belgium, Holland, Sweden and is well documented (e.g. the short film "Femme de la Rue" from Belgium. Not to mention the mass sexual assaults in Germany on NYE a few years ago, the grooming gangs in the UK. The sexual harassment and disrespect of European girls and women in their own countries by men of Muslim origin is a very plain and obvious example of a culture clash. I'm sorry it's not taken more seriously.

Well I am sorry that happened to you. Which European city was this? I lived in Brussels for 2 years and later in Paris — I remember Femme de la Rue being shown in class. In fact, when I worked in Paris I remember the other Irish girl who worked with me wore sunglasses into work one day because she felt uncomfortable with the way the men on site were behaving towards her, and at least a good proportion of them seemed to be either migrants or subsequent generation (we were doing some professional work for the building of a shopping centre in the 15th arrondissement which involved visiting the building site). It’s definitely a problem which I’ve seen with my own eyes.

But let’s not kid ourselves here — sexual assault happens in Ireland, women are attacked in Ireland, harassment happens in Ireland, as well as obscene gestures and catcalling happen. As I’ve described, we literally saw a video of teens physically assaulting women at a train station a few weeks ago to the point of near fatality. I know lots of girls who have been sexually assaulted or harassed in Ireland to some degree, many of them in cherished iconic Irish clubs like Coppers where good little Irish boys from farms in Longford grab girls behinds with zero consent. If a documentary was to be made, similar to Femme de la Rue, where Irish women video-document their nights out in Ireland — how likely do you think it is we would see them subjected to all manner of assault, either physical or verbal, by all those good little Irish boys? What culture makes them do that? Irish culture?

It’s not about whataboutery — we can’t say “Oh migrant man shouting sexual things at woman in Brussels street is OK because Irish students are touching up girls in Coppers”. But people take these problems and try to make them ‘fit’ conveniently into a specific narrative — in this case the clash of cultures. I could take a different narrative and make this all ‘fit’ into that one — for example — I could just say that what we are talking about here actually suggests that there is a culture of sexual violence towards women among the global male population in general. And then suddenly a lot of the males on here might take issue with that!

clytemnestra

clytemnestra wrote: »

The sexual harassment and disrespect of European girls and women in their own countries by men of Muslim origin is a very plain and obvious example of a culture clash. I'm sorry it's not taken more seriously.

Sexual harassment by any male on any female should be taken seriously.
It shouldn't make any difference where they are from nor what religion they are.
Females have the right to walk anywhere without disrespect from anyone, be they irish, english, Pakistani or whatever.

clytemnestra

I know sexual harassment happens in Ireland, that male violence towards woman exists everywhere, and what you're saying *is* whataboutery. You are ignoring the effects culture has on the treatment of women, blithely pretending that if you drop a population with an extremely conservative culture into a modern Western location, it won't have any negative effects and that shure western men do it too. You're ignoring the struggles of Muslim women against FGM, forced veiling, forced marriage and all the other practices that deny them a free and equal life, even when they're born and raised in Europe. To point this out is not "fitting something into a narrative" and it's dishonest and disingenuous to pretend it is. Some cultures are much worse for women than others. That's not a narrative, it's a fact.

clytemnestra

clytemnestra wrote: »

You're ignoring the struggles of Muslim women against FGM, forced veiling, forced marriage and all the other practices that deny them a free and equal life, even when they're born and raised in Europe.

And you are assuming that all Muslim women have those struggles and that all Muslim men believe in those practises.

clytemnestra

Not going to go round and round with you on this bubblypop, no point.

If course not, because you are determined to be right and believe that all people of Muslim faith are the same.
If course most normal minded people understand that's not true.

clytemnestra

That's right. Oh wait no. I'd come up with some calm well reasoned arguments citing facts and statistics and you'd reply "But why don't you like brown people? It's so sad."

clytemnestra

clytemnestra wrote: »

That's right. Oh wait no. I'd come up with some calm well reasoned arguments citing facts and statistics and you'd reply "But why don't you like brown people? It's so sad."

You just made up a ridiculous post.

ArthurDayne

clytemnestra wrote: »

I know sexual harassment happens in Ireland, that male violence towards woman exists everywhere, and what you're saying *is* whataboutery. You are ignoring the effects culture has on the treatment of women, blithely pretending that if you drop a population with an extremely conservative culture into a modern Western location, it won't have any negative effects and that shure western men do it too. You're ignoring the struggles of Muslim women against FGM, forced veiling, forced marriage and all the other practices that deny them a free and equal life, even when they're born and raised in Europe. To point this out is not "fitting something into a narrative" and it's dishonest and disingenuous to pretend it is. Some cultures are much worse for women than others. That's not a narrative, it's a fact.

Yeah, but you’re calling it whataboutery because you were trying to jam complex issues into a very narrow narrative to fulfil an agenda. So let’s say we made a Femme de la Rue documentary with hidden cameras chronicling the experience of young women in Ireland in Dublin clubs — what do you think we would see? Touching, grabbing, lewd language, lads trying to talk drunker girls into coming home with them — and perhaps things that are even more disturbing.

The inevitable debate would then unfold, with a big thread on Boards, about rape culture among men, men being perverts, should men be put under curfew etc etc etc. And then I imagine that some of the people who want to push narrow agendas when it comes to multiculturalism suddenly accuse others of pushing a narrow agenda. “Not all men are bad”, “most men are good”, “People only ever focus on the bad things that men do and never the good which gives an unfair impression”— those are all the things that would be said, right? And those would be fair statements — but replace the word “men” there with “Muslim migrants” and suddenly its happy clappy wokeism and snowflakes playing down the issues.

There are serious problems in the cultures of Islamic countries and Islam is a horrible religion — there is no denying this. But it does not automatically follow that we have to follow your simplistic narrative that all these problems are the intractable manifestation of an inability for cultures to modernise and develop in interaction with others — especially in the context where multicultural places like Europe and America remain some of the most tolerant and liberal places on Earth.

ArthurDayne

bubblypop wrote: »

And you are assuming that all Muslim women have those struggles and that all Muslim men believe in those practises.

Yeah, and in Ireland we would absolutely NEVER tolerate the mutilation of a child’s genitals, right?

Wrong. The mutilation of a male baby’s genitals is perfectly legal and available in Ireland, and you can have their foreskin cut off — a thing that is often done for religious and / or cultural reasons. There are also some hygienic reasons for doing it, but the baby doesn’t get to wait until he’s old enough to decide for himself whether his penis gets mutilated.

But that’s the acceptable Western version of slicing a baby’s genitals, not like the foreign culture of slicing a baby’s genitals.

Sand

ArthurDayne wrote: »

In full appreciation that I don’t really know the specifics of the harassment you suffered (though it might be useful to explain that, even lightly if you feel comfortable to do so), this post does come across as simply coming to the conclusion that you are determined to come to without any bridging logic or explanation.

ArthurDayne wrote: »

Yeah, but you’re calling it whataboutery because you were trying to jam complex issues into a very narrow narrative to fulfil an agenda.

But people take these problems and try to make them ‘fit’ conveniently into a specific narrative — in this case the clash of cultures.

But it is you who is taking a very narrow narrative and denying complex analysis. You're starting from the very simplistic belief that there cannot be any distinction drawn between the behavior of indigenous and non-indigenous people. You're wholly rejecting the complexity that when we do look at the behavior of non-indigenous enclaves we can and do see very disturbing trends.

The reality is attacks on indigenous peoples by non-indigenous enclaves are inevitable in the context of mass migration. These attacks are only possible because government policy created those enclaves by enabling mass migration. They could have been entirely prevented had government chosen a better policy.

I could just say that what we are talking about here actually suggests that there is a culture of sexual violence towards women among the global male population in general. And then suddenly a lot of the males on here might take issue with that!

You could and it would indicate that you've no objection to drawing broad conclusions about groups of people. You just choose not to do so when it comes to (non-white) ethnic groups because it doesn't suit your specific narrative.

And you would face absolutely no censure or retaliation from power were you to draw negative conclusions about men as a group. But you would were you to do so about non-white ethnic groups.

But it does not automatically follow that we have to follow your simplistic narrative that all these problems are the intractable manifestation of an inability for cultures to modernise and develop in interaction with others

It is your narrative that is simplistic and ignores the reality.

Sexual violence has been recognized by the U.N. as a trend in conflicts between groups, particularly genocidal conflicts. Most infamously in the Yugoslav conflicts where combatants would humiliate and rape women from opposing ethnic groups. When one looks at the ongoing rape of English girls by non-indigenous gangs, a repeated factor is the perpetrators utter contempt for the English motivating the targeting of English girls. They did not target women from within their own ethnic groups. Their own ethnic groups seem to widely tolerate their behaviour so long as it was directed outwards to the English. So the targeting of indigenous women by non-indigenous ethnic groups for humiliation and sexual violence has different motivations that simply are not interchangeable with crimes within the indigenous population itself.

Sand

Sand wrote: »

Sexual violence has been recognized by the U.N. as a trend in conflicts between groups, particularly genocidal . Most infamously in the Yugoslav conflicts where combatants would humiliate and rape women from opposing ethnic groups.

Sexual violence against women is recognised as a war crime and a crime against humanity.
There has always been sexual violence and rape in war and conflicts. Please do not try to make this violence against women about ethnicity. Ethnicity of offenders and victims is an aside, this sexual violence happens no matter what the ethnicity of either.
Do not try to compare rape gangs in the UK with conflict based sexual violence.

Sand

bubblypop wrote: »

Sexual violence against women is recognised as a war crime and a crime against humanity.
There has always been sexual violence and rape in war and conflicts. Please do not try to make this violence against women about ethnicity. Ethnicity of offenders and victims is an aside, this sexual violence happens no matter what the ethnicity of either.
Do not try to compare rape gangs in the UK with conflict based sexual violence.

No, I think I will make the comparison even if it doesn't suit your simplistic narrative.

Sand

Sand wrote: »

No, I think I will make the comparison even if it doesn't suit your simplistic narrative.

No, you will make a comparison even though it is not correct.
It's disgusting to use war crimes and conflict based violence against women for your agenda.

Sand

bubblypop wrote: »

No, you will make a comparison even though it is not correct.
It's disgusting to use war crimes and conflict based violence against women for your agenda.

It is an entirely valid comparison. The targeting of English girls for humiliation and sexual violence by non-indigenous gangs to sexual violence in ethnic conflict is an entirely valid comparison to make. Get over it.

Sand

Sand wrote: »

It is an entirely valid comparison. The targeting of English girls for humiliation and sexual violence by non-indigenous gangs to sexual violence in ethnic conflict is an entirely valid comparison to make. Get over it.

It's really not.
I'm assuming from your posts that you don't have any experience with war crimes victims.
Sexual violence is present in all conflict, not just 'ethnic conflict '
Rape and sexual crimes are used as a tool of war, humiliation and power, against women and men.
Please leave it

TomTomTim

bubblypop wrote: »

Sexual violence against women is recognised as a war crime and a crime against humanity.
There has always been sexual violence and rape in war and conflicts. Please do not try to make this violence against women about ethnicity. Ethnicity of offenders and victims is an aside, this sexual violence happens no matter what the ethnicity of either.
Do not try to compare rape gangs in the UK with conflict based sexual violence.

bubblypop wrote: »

No, you will make a comparison even though it is not correct.
It's disgusting to use war crimes and conflict based violence against women for your agenda.

“The man who lies to himself can be more easily offended than anyone else. You know it is sometimes very pleasant to take offense, isn't it? A man may know that nobody has insulted him, but that he has invented the insult for himself, has lied and exaggerated to make it picturesque, has caught at a word and made a mountain out of a molehill--he knows that himself, yet he will be the first to take offense, and will revel in his resentment till he feels great pleasure in it.”- Fyodor Dostoyevsky

Wibbs

bubblypop wrote: »

Ethnicity of offenders and victims is an aside, this sexual violence happens no matter what the ethnicity of either.

Do these gangs target Muslim girls and women? Simple question. Yes, or no? They apparently clearly see a fundamental difference, but you can't?

I doubt you'd express nearly the same disgust at someone pointing out while most adherents were fine the Catholic Church culture and hierarchy helped enable child abuse throughout the world and especially in Ireland and that there was something fundamentally wrong within that culture and it needed adressing and stamping out. Because it did.

ArthurDayne wrote: »

Yeah, but you’re calling it whataboutery because you were trying to jam complex issues into a very narrow narrative to fulfil an agenda. So let’s say we made a Femme de la Rue documentary with hidden cameras chronicling the experience of young women in Ireland in Dublin clubs — what do you think we would see? Touching, grabbing, lewd language, lads trying to talk drunker girls into coming home with them — and perhaps things that are even more disturbing.

The inevitable debate would then unfold, with a big thread on Boards, about rape culture among men, men being perverts, should men be put under curfew etc etc etc. And then I imagine that some of the people who want to push narrow agendas when it comes to multiculturalism suddenly accuse others of pushing a narrow agenda. “Not all men are bad”, “most men are good”, “People only ever focus on the bad things that men do and never the good which gives an unfair impression”— those are all the things that would be said, right? And those would be fair statements — but replace the word “men” there with “Muslim migrants” and suddenly its happy clappy wokeism and snowflakes playing down the issues.

Oh there is much to that indeed. However there would also be some of those same "happy clappy woke snowflakes"(I hit all the buzzwords there ) viewing the Irish footage quick to rant about a "rape culture" happening in Ireland because of the "patriarchy". Hell some already do. The same cohort tend to be quick leveling accusations of racism, transphobia, homophobia, whateverphobia you're having yourself on Western societies, but are also quick to back off, even call racism when similar stuff is seen as factors in other cultures, the browner the culture the more the backing off and accusations of racism. It doesn't mean there isn't some racism involved of course, but that's confusing the issues involved too.

especially in the context where multicultural places like Europe and America remain some of the most tolerant and liberal places on Earth.

Not even some, they're pretty much it on those scores. However we have enclaves of the intolerant and illiberal within those societies among the natives. We have fully homegrown racists, homophobes chauvinists etc. We patted ourselves on the back for the "landslide victory" in the SSM and Choice referendums, only it wasn't a landslide when a third voted nope to both. And we hear about these internal failings enough and the reasons for it are aimed at the society itself. Yet enclaves of the non native intolerant and illiberal tend to get a freer ride and more excuses trotted out by the same people pointing out the splinter in our eyes. That's the issue I have.

ArthurDayne wrote: »

Yeah, and in Ireland we would absolutely NEVER tolerate the mutilation of a child’s genitals, right?

Wrong. The mutilation of a male baby’s genitals is perfectly legal and available in Ireland, and you can have their foreskin cut off — a thing that is often done for religious and / or cultural reasons. There are also some hygienic reasons for doing it, but the baby doesn’t get to wait until he’s old enough to decide for himself whether his penis gets mutilated.

But that’s the acceptable Western version of slicing a baby’s genitals, not like the foreign culture of slicing a baby’s genitals.

+1000 I'd ban that for non medical reasons in the morning if I could. And yep it demonstrates a cultural bias. No more so than in the US where the majority of baby boys have their mickeys snipped. I remember an Oprah Winfrey show where she was highlighting FGM and fair play, but on another show she was pimping some makeup product that was based on research on discarded foreskins and there was a grand oul chuckle. Oh and in before the "FGM is so much more evil, there's no comparison!!!" replies from some; would you be OK with a cultural medical procedure that removed exactly the same corresponding tissue in girls? Of course you wouldn't.

Wibbs

Wibbs wrote: »

Do these gangs target Muslim girls and women? Simple question. Yes, or no? They apparently clearly see a fundamental difference, but you can't?

Perhaps you missed the part where I was talking about the victims of war crimes?
the gang rapes on English girls are not the same as sexual violence in conflicts.

Different conversation

Wibbs

bubblypop wrote: »

Listen stop with this now.

You tried to make out that sexual violence in conflict and rapes as war crimes were somehow based on ethnic backgrounds, they are not.

Eh... I hate to break it to you and remind you of the sweep of human history, but war and war crimes are regularly based on different ethnic backgrounds in conflict. Along with resources it's the primary feature and reason for war and war crimes in the first place.

Ten of Swords

Swindled do not post in this thread again