What are your views on Multiculturalism in Ireland? - Threadbanned User List in OP

Wibbs

RobbieTheRobber wrote: »

It is objectively true that one group of humans is better than another group of humans?

SchrodingersCat wrote: »

What's even more amusing is the inability to see that the two have the same result: Cultural racism keeps our racist socialisation alive and continually reinforced through discrimination.

More who are conflating people and "races" with culture. I thought that was verboten? Ad for good reasons. Though they are obviously coming from very different places I have long held the view that in one respect the right on and the right wing have one thing in common; they're both completely obsessed with "race" and skin colour and both label people accordingly just from a different angle. Ironies all over the place.

Cordell

Cordell wrote: »

They are leaving for other western cultures, aren't they?
Or they are leaving to places like Dubai for money, not for the quality of life.
But they are not running, they are not crossing the waters in makeshift boats.

I lived in another country. I didn't go for the culture nor did I leave because of Irish culture.
You don't think there may be other reasons for their leaving?

And is it just certain cultures you see as inferior?
Which are the superior ones, in your opinion?

Wibbs

Wibbs wrote: »

More who are conflating people and "races" with culture. I thought that was verboten? Ad for good reasons. Though they are obviously coming from very different places I have long held the view that in one respect the right on and the right wing have one thing in common; they're both completely obsessed with "race" and skin colour and both label people accordingly just from a different angle. Ironies all over the place.

Supremacy.
The belief that a certain group is superior to others, including by culture

Cordell

bubblypop wrote: »

I lived in another country. I didn't go for the culture nor did I leave because of Irish culture.
You don't think there may be other reasons for their leaving?

That was my point as well it the post you quoted: irish people are not leaving because of Irish culture because Irish culture is a western culture.

bubblypop wrote: »

Which are the superior ones, in your opinion?

The culture that gave as human rights, computers, modern medicine, the culture that is now stopping a global pandemic with a vaccine, the culture that gave us freedom to think and speak and love freely. You know which one.

jmreire

Cordell wrote: »

As it happens, we decide that our culture is better and they agree because they choose to come here at great risk and expense. You know what, tell them, go to a DPC and tell them they made a mistake, the culture they ran out of is just as good as the culture here.

Or better still, go and live for awhile in the Countrys they have left. And I'm not talking about Countrys which are at war. That will make up your mind about culture etc.

Ten of Swords

Seenitall do not post in this thread again

Cordell

Cordell wrote: »

That was my point as well it the post you quoted: irish people are not leaving because of Irish culture because Irish culture is a western culture.

The culture that gave as human rights, computers, modern medicine, the culture that is now stopping a global pandemic with a vaccine, the culture that gave us freedom to think and speak and love freely. You know which one.

So Irish people don't leave their country because of culture, but other countries do?

When do you believe human rights came about?

RobbieTheRobber

Wibbs wrote: »

More who are conflating people and "races" with culture. I thought that was verboten? Ad for good reasons. Though they are obviously coming from very different places I have long held the view that in one respect the right on and the right wing have one thing in common; they're both completely obsessed with "race" and skin colour and both label people accordingly just from a different angle. Ironies all over the place.

Can you please provide a definition for how you are using culture. A link to a dictionary definition would be appreciated.

seenitall

seenitall wrote: »

T

It being summer, the “irregular” entries are at an all time high once again. The Canaries, Morocco, Greece, Malta, Italy, the Balkans. There is no end in sight, either in the numbers arriving or in any prospective deadline on putting a stop to this, of course.

I believe the EU officially declared the migrant crisis over a number of years ago, despite the fact that hundreds of thousands continue to enter every year. Half a million entered last year despite a global pandemic, and that is just the "official" stats, God only knows what the true numbers are...

Politicians by and large don't seem to care, if they did this madness would stop.

Cordell

bubblypop wrote: »

So Irish people don't leave their country because of culture, but other countries do?

Yes, finally.

bubblypop wrote: »

When do you believe human rights came about?

Well, certainly they didn't came about out of the UN Human Rights council with members like China and Sudan and Saudi Arabia.

Wibbs

bubblypop wrote: »

No. I never said culture is bound to race. Supremacy is a type of racism. As you well know.

How in god's name is culturalism a type of racism? If you believe someone can be Black and fully Irish and of the culture and someone says Irish culture is overall superior to I dunno Georgian, again how do you square that circle? You are too close to suggesting culture is a product of race.

No, no-one has to judge. Why would they? It's not your place to judge how someone lives their life is it?

How very christian of you. However progress only comes about because of judgement. Judging whether something is positive or negative and changing things for the better.

Of course, when it comes to illegal activities the law will judge. As it right and fair

And how did those laws change? Magic? Or did society judge what were opjectively bad laws, or no laws at all anc change them?

Again can you answer this please: Is 2020'a Irish culture objectively better for more people than 1940's Irish culture, when being Gay was illegal and a "sin", where women had fewer rights, no divorce, no SSM, no abortion rights? Or is that relativist?

Wibbs

RobbieTheRobber wrote: »

Can you please provide a definition for how you are using culture. A link to a dictionary definition would be appreciated.

From wiki if you like: is an umbrella term which encompasses the social behavior and norms found in human societies, as well as the knowledge, beliefs, arts, laws, customs, capabilities, and habits of the individuals in these groups.[1] Nothing about "race" in the mix, but some seem hellbent on making it so. Again my point seems to stand about that one common strand between the "left" and the "right".

ArthurDayne

seenitall wrote: »

To me, as a woman, and I have to say, to most people I know IRL, it is self-evident and a matter of common sense that the cultures wherein something like FGM is considered a desirable state of affairs for a woman, ....

I have mentioned this before but I think it really does need to be said whenever this point is brought. Genital mutilation of infant males is legal in Ireland and, while not practiced widely here, is still not totally uncommon and is largely culturally accepted. It is of course also both common and largely accepted elsewhere in the Judeo-Christian influenced societies (USA being a prime example).

Wibbs

ArthurDayne wrote: »

I have mentioned this before but I think it really does need to be said whenever this point is brought. Genital mutilation of infant males is legal in Ireland and, while not practiced widely here, is still not totally uncommon and is largely culturally accepted. It is of course also both common and largely accepted elsewhere in the Judeo-Christian influenced societies (USA being a prime example).

+1000. I'd ban that bronze age blood sacrifice nonsense from a height too. That's a blindspot in our culture that needs adressing.

Wibbs

Wibbs wrote: »

How in god's name is culturalism a type of racism? If you believe someone can be Black and fully Irish and of the culture and someone says Irish culture is overall superior to I dunno Georgian, again how do you square that circle? You are too close to suggesting culture is a product of race.

Making things up Wibbs.
I said supremacy. Supremacy is believing that one.group of people is superior to another. But you know that & are just trying to change my posts.
Yes someone can be black and Irish, I'm nowhere near saying culture is a product of race. It can be, but it doesn't have to be.

Please don't misrepresent me in future.

Cordell

Cordell wrote: »

Yes, finally.


Well, certainly they didn't came about out of the UN Human Rights council with members like China and Sudan and Saudi Arabia.

Your first line has no evidence whatsoever.
So, human rights didn't come.from the UDHR then? So where did they come from?

RobbieTheRobber

Wibbs wrote: »

From wiki if you like: is an umbrella term which encompasses the social behavior and norms found in human societies, as well as the knowledge, beliefs, arts, laws, customs, capabilities, and habits of the individuals in these groups.[1] Nothing about "race" in the mix, but some seem hellbent on making it so. Again my point seems to stand about that one common strand between the "left" and the "right".

I mean at least provide the link to the wiki article.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Culture

I mean it's not a definition it's an intro to a wikpedia article but alright.
Do you believe the partial line quoted sums up everything in the article?

ArthurDayne

Wibbs wrote: »

+1000. I'd ban that bronze age blood sacrifice nonsense from a height too. That's a blindspot in our culture that needs adressing.

But I suppose this is the issue with these cultural superiority exercises. People become blind to comparable elements of their own culture, and I wonder if it’s because there can be a culture shock when those elements simply manifest themselves in different ways elsewhere in the world. I had a conversation on this thread a while back with a lady who spoke of her experiences of being harassed and having sexually suggestive abuse hurled at her on the streets of Brussels — her conclusion being that it was evidence of the “culture clash”. I pointed out at the time that male sexual aggression and harassment of women is actually fairly common in Ireland and I put forward the notion that if young women on nights out in Dublin were to wear hidden cameras — we would probably see some shocking behaviour that would be comparable.

I actually spoke about that conversation to female friends and they all agreed that they had been victims of sexual assault, sexual aggression and sexually charged verbal abuse in Irish pubs, clubs, houseparties etc throughout their adult lives (and don’t get wrong, I’m not pushing this as a reliable sample size, but I also don’t imagine it’s entirely unrepresentative of the female experience of Irish nightlife). The cultural comparison exercise thus often seems to become one of ...our male sexual aggression is better than theirs, our bodily mutilation of infants is better than theirs etc etc.

The problem then becomes worse, as I think Cordell perhaps unknowingly demonstrated in his post above where he posed the “easy cultural comparison where one culture is paedophiles and one culture is all doctors” analogy, where people view cultures as kind of hive-mentality monoliths. Of course, it was just an analogy, but I think it hinted at the tendency to view different cultures as “People of Type X” and “People of Type Y”. It then all morphs into an exercise of (1) viewing a “culture“ as being a kind of uniform mentality and thus (2) the culture can be demoted because bad things you see in that culture can therefore be deemed as representative of the people forming that culture because they are all People of Type Y.

Cordell

bubblypop wrote: »

Your first line has no evidence whatsoever.

Wait, what? I was agreeing with you there, Irish people don't leave Ireland for cultural reasons. Because they don't have to.

bubblypop wrote: »

So, human rights didn't come.from the UDHR then? So where did they come from?

The western world is the best when it comes to human rights, I think we can agree here, right?
If you're trying to say that at some point in ancient history human rights were better observed outside of Europe then you will be right, but those cultures are long gone. We are comparing current western culture with other current cultures, we're not talking history here.

Wibbs

bubblypop wrote: »

Making things up Wibbs.
I said supremacy. Supremacy is believing that one.group of people is superior to another. But you know that & are just trying to change my posts.
Yes someone can be black and Irish, I'm nowhere near saying culture is a product of race. It can be, but it doesn't have to be.

Please don't misrepresent me in future.

I didn't. You were the one bringing in cultural relativism and immediately jumping to calling negative criticism of cultures as racist. If I say I think Russian culture has a shedload of issues including homophobia, xenophobia, sexism and corruption and I rate Irish culture as superior because of that, is that racist? Last time I looked Russians are as pale or paler than Irish people.

Again and you do seem to be avoiding it, can you answer this please: Is 2020's Irish culture objectively better for more people than 1940's Irish culture, when being Gay was illegal and a "sin", where women had fewer rights, no divorce, no SSM, no abortion rights? Yes or no.

If yes then you would judge 1940's Irish culture as being lesser, inferior even and 2020's Irish culture as being superior. So where does your cultural relativism come into play? How does "race" come into it. If the answer is no and we're sticking with cultural relativism, then I really don't know what to say. If it's a maybe, then we're still sitting on that fence.

Wibbs

ArthurDayne wrote: »

But I suppose this is the issue with these cultural superiority exercises. People become blind to comparable elements of their own culture, and I wonder if it’s because there can be a culture shock when those elements simply manifest themselves in different ways elsewhere in the world.

I for one wouldn't. There are all sorts of issue within western and Irish culture we need to address and I have a fair amount of confidence that we will.

bubblypop

bubblypop wrote: »

Claiming that one culture is superior to another is also racist.

You may think you are part of a superior culture, which merely means that you believe others to be inferior. You can mess with language all you like, but the sentiment remains.

Also, making a list of things that have been done by foreigners and predicting the future based on blanket assumptions that future immigrants will also do those things is also racist.

Is it wrong to look down on people who would like to throw gay people off buildings ?

You've jumped the shark bubblypop

bubblypop

bubblypop wrote: »

Who decides it's true?
It's a type of supremacy, believing that your culture is better then others.
Those people may think their culture is superior to yours, who is right?I

Or are they just different cultures? Ever hear of cultural relativism?

This is clear and transparent example of the treachery that literally endangers us. They will cry ****e about cultural relativism when someone is beheaded

Cordell

Cordell wrote: »

Wait, what? I was agreeing with you there, Irish people don't leave Ireland for cultural reasons. Because they don't have to.


The western world is the best when it comes to human rights, I think we can agree here, right?
If you're trying to say that at some point in ancient history human rights were better observed outside of Europe then you will be right, but those cultures are long gone. We are comparing current western culture with other current cultures, we're not talking history here.

You said the best culture is the culture that brought about human rights, so I'm asking you, when did human rights start? What culture brough about human rights?

[Deleted User]

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Is it wrong to look down on people who would like to throw gay people off buildings ?

You've jumped the shark bubblypop

How can you know What people believe in their heads?
You may sit beside someone at work who believe women should be kept out of the workplace and in the home.

If someone actually engaged in illegal activity against another person then I believe they should be brought before the law and dealt with accordingly.

Wibbs

Wibbs wrote: »

Again and you do seem to be avoiding it, can you answer this please: Is 2020's Irish culture objectively better for more people than 1940's Irish culture, when being Gay was illegal and a "sin", where women had fewer rights, no divorce, no SSM, no abortion rights? Yes or no.

If yes then you would judge 1940's Irish culture as being lesser, inferior even and 2020's Irish culture as being superior. So where does your cultural relativism come into play? How does "race" come into it. If the answer is no and we're sticking with cultural relativism, then I really don't know what to say. If it's a maybe, then we're still sitting on that fence.

This is the same thing as judging other cultures. You are judging 1940s Ireland by 2020s standards. You believe culture now to be superior. Perhaps the people living then would not agree.

Just because people have personal preferences to the culture they wish to live in, that does not make them superior.
I would not wish to live in an African tribe, for example, that type of life and culture does not interest me and I would not like to live like that. Does that make their culture inferior? No, it just wouldn't suit me.

[Deleted User]

[Deleted User] wrote: »

This is clear and transparent example of the treachery that literally endangers us. They will cry ****e about cultural relativism when someone is beheaded

That's murder and against the law of the land, so it does not matter what 'they cry'

Wibbs

bubblypop wrote: »

This is the same thing as judging other cultures. You are judging 1940s Ireland by 2020s standards. You believe culture now to be superior. Perhaps the people living then would not agree.

You are trying to avoid the question like the very plague.

Again; do you believe our culture is now superior on those metrics compared to the 1940's. Yes, or No. It's a very simple question. The people of the time's attitudes are not relevant. People have also believed in evil spirits, the inferiority of women, of different races, of different sexualities. Where they right just because their culture agreed?

Just because people have personal preferences to the culture they wish to live in, that does not make them superior.

Imagine a culture that was racist, xenophobic, sexist, that supported slavery, FGM, the death penalty for what we would regard as minor crimes and child labour. Would that be an inferior culture to modern Ireland's? Yes, or No.

Cultural relativism is tying oneself in knots trying to defend the indefensible and ridiculous on the altar of non judgementalism for its own sake. Though it has a much longer history than the dafter ends of post modernism as a philosophy it suffers from the same weaknesses.

Wibbs

bubblypop wrote: »

That's murder and against the law of the land, so it does not matter what 'they cry'

And how did such laws come about? relativism debates? No. They came about because cultures made judgements and pretty damned strident ones that said nope this is an inferior way of thinking and doing and we must enact rules against such thinking and doing to make a better, more superior society.

Wibbs

bubblypop wrote: »

You said the best culture is the culture that brought about human rights, so I'm asking you, when did human rights start? What culture brough about human rights?

Many cultures across the world have tried to set out what we would see as early attempts at human rights laws. The Babylonians had a go, as did the Egyptians and later the Romans(the Greeks not so much), religions like Christianity and Islam ditto. The idea of modern human rights in concept and legislation is pretty much a Western European one that began in the humanist notions of the renaiisance that took shape and really got going in the age of enlightenment. So in answer to your question, roughly speaking Europe, in the age of enlightenment in the 17th century.