What are your views on Multiculturalism in Ireland? - Threadbanned User List in OP

Wibbs

bubblypop wrote: »

I believe that the church had a stronghold on this country. They took over when the Brits left, courtesy of invitation by some extreme religious members of government.
People didn't have the choice.

For a people who didn't have a choice they certainly welcomed it. There is an odd notion these days that the Irish People(tm) had the Church forced on them. That they had no agency. This is terribly convenient, because we can as a culture pin many of our negatives onto the same church, just like we used to pin them on "The Brits". It wasn't "us" it was "them". It wasn't our sons, daughters, brothers and sisters, mothers and fathers that turned a blind eye, that weren't the enthusiastic daily communicants, priests, nuns and laypeople. Oh no. It absolves us of our "sins" in many ways, but it's not close to the truth. As late as 1979 when Pope John Paul George Ringo came to Ireland nearly three quarters of the Irish people came to see him. Clearly they were all at gunpoint...

The church didn't just give up its hold on Irish society, people eventually fought back after being on the receiving end of systematic abuse and being 'ruled' by the church.

That was a tiny part of it in reality. Much more in play was the demographic shift towards the young, at one point Ireland had the youngest population in Europe. An increasing exposure to media outside Ireland and the rise of western secularism itself was another major factor. Economics played its part too. By the mid 1980's we were already drifting away in droves from Catholic Ireland and that was before the majority of the real scandals broke(though more rural areas were slower to catch up). At the start of the 80's most of my peers and their parents went to Sunday mass, by the end of the 80's most didn't. They didn't so much fight back as just stopped showing up. It was a revolt of the "meh".

In any event, do you still hold that Catholicism wasn't a huge part of Irish culture and that culture was measurably inferior to the current one?

Cordell

Is Australia not a multicultural society?

Australia and America and NZ and other countries where the indigenous population was all but exterminated are not good examples of multiculturalism.

Fandymo

RobbieTheRobber wrote: »

Finally! :D:D:D
I mean you have taken longer to reply to a yes or no question of mine but alright wibbs clearly no intention to try and annoy in your posting style towards me.

So on this thread you have decried that there are no positives to multiculturalism. Now In answer to your question I present one and not one from your prescribed list of banned positives of multiculturalism ( I notice bubblypop is replying to you on that issue). But now you deflect and say oh everyone knows that one. So there is positives right?

Multiculturalism is not a states immigration policy, it is not racism in that state it not is HR practises it is;


https://ec.europa.eu/home-affairs/what-we-do/networks/european_migration_network/glossary_search/multiculturalism_en





Is racism a constituent part of multiculturalism?
I must have missed that in your definition of multiculturalism.

Of for secular Jesus's sake, what is so important in your France 24 YouTube video. What is the big gotcha point I'm not seeing in this video.

Is it that France is so bad with the foreigners that the national racist party of France won no districts in their recent elections?
There is such disapproval by French citizens of multicultural politic that they, what just accepted the status quo in their most recent visit to the polls?

A single video on a news channel is not in itself much evidence of anything.

Ireland must be a utopia. No housing issues, no homelessness, no criminals with 100+ convictions roaming the streets committing crimes. No issues whatsoever. No prefab schools. No health issues.

Since there “is such disapproval by ‘Irish’ citizens of ‘current parish pump’ politic that they, what (sic) just accepted the status quo in their most recent visit to the polls?

According to your logic Robbie.

Wibbs

RobbieTheRobber wrote: »

Now you say racism is part of multiculturalism

I've been saying it and pointing to it as a negative throughout.

really can you provide me a single source other than yourself than says racism is a constituent part of multiculturalism?

Good lord man, how can you with a straight face begin to claim it's not? Have you missed all the BLM marches and debate throughout the multicultural West? Drive around Dublin for any length of time and you will see anti-racism campaign posters on buses supported by the Immigrant Council of Ireland and the National Transport Authority. Apparently they see it as an issue that needs a campaign against it. If racism wasn't a factor in multicultural nations why would it need to be spelled out? We didn't need it on 1980's buses when we were far more monocultural.

Then you go for the referendum rehash. This is not multiculturalism. The impact of the original amendment might be felt in that Irish society became more multicultural as a result but the referendum and resulting change is not a part of multiculturalism.

Eh you don't see how one impact resulted in that vote?

Multiculturalism is not restricted to open borders and can exist in states with controlled immigration. Is Australia not a multicultural society?

Australia, just like the US, Canada et al is an ex European colony founded upon immigration. This is a major difference compared to European nations. Never mind that there has been pushback and problems there. They cut off the supply of migrants coming across on boats. Something Europe hasn't done yet. And they've had their own far right party One Nation, that got a fair bit of support early on, then scandal ridden, buggered off only to come back and get a few people elected in recent years.

Hard to engage with people when they're not sure themselves what they're trying to say.

Kaybaykwah

Kaybaykwah wrote: »

Everything I said answers those questions to a degree. I don't get tbis fastidiousness over details. People aren't sheep, and I entertain the thought that maybe, some of us can get along, regardless of the country of our birth, our mother tongue and other matters, that to some are dismissed as divisive. I am convinced that Ireland is a better place than it was 40 years ago because the Irish, whatever their origin, are better able to withstand hardships, more nimble and wealthier.

I have no issue with what you've written above, which makes me even less sure what you were getting at with your previous two posts.

RobbieTheRobber

Fandymo wrote: »

Ireland must be a utopia. No housing issues, no homelessness, no criminals with 100+ convictions roaming the streets committing crimes. No issues whatsoever. No prefab schools. No health issues.

Since there “is such disapproval by ‘Irish’ citizens of ‘current parish pump’ politic that they, what (sic) just accepted the status quo in their most recent visit to the polls?

According to your logic Robbie.

By any metric we use to compare countries Ireland is a pretty great place to live yes Fandymo.
So I agree it is one the reasons with the status quo with our political structure

RobbieTheRobber

Wibbs wrote: »

I've been saying it and pointing to it as a negative throughout. Good lord man, how can you with a straight face begin to claim it's not? Have you missed all the BLM marches and debate throughout the multicultural West? Drive around Dublin for any length of time and you will see anti-racism campaign posters on buses supported by the Immigrant Council of Ireland and the National Transport Authority. Apparently they see it as an issue that needs a campaign against it. If racism wasn't a factor in multicultural nations why would it need to be spelled out? We didn't need it on 1980's buses when we were far more monocultural.

Eh you don't see how one impact resulted in that vote?

Australia, just like the US, Canada et al is an ex European colony founded upon immigration. This is a major difference compared to European nations. Never mind that there has been pushback and problems there. They cut off the supply of migrants coming across on boats. Something Europe hasn't done yet. And they've had their own far right party One Nation, that got a fair bit of support early on, then scandal ridden, buggered off only to come back and get a few people elected in recent years.

I'm going to say it again on its own.
Being pro multiculturalism does not equal being pro open borders.
Multiculturalism can exist quite fine in a state with controlled immigration.

RobbieTheRobber

MikeOxsgreen wrote: »

Hard to engage with people when they're not sure themselves what they're trying to say.

Sniping from the ditches again Mike. Do you want to address anything specific I have said. Or will you just throw around ad hominems some more?

RobbieTheRobber

Wibbs wrote: »

I've been saying it and pointing to it as a negative throughout. Good lord man, how can you with a straight face begin to claim it's not? Have you missed all the BLM marches and debate throughout the multicultural West? Drive around Dublin for any length of time and you will see anti-racism campaign posters on buses supported by the Immigrant Council of Ireland and the National Transport Authority. Apparently they see it as an issue that needs a campaign against it. If racism wasn't a factor in multicultural nations why would it need to be spelled out? We didn't need it on 1980's buses when we were far more monocultural.

Eh you don't see how one impact resulted in that vote?

Australia, just like the US, Canada et al is an ex European colony founded upon immigration. This is a major difference compared to European nations. Never mind that there has been pushback and problems there. They cut off the supply of migrants coming across on boats. Something Europe hasn't done yet. And they've had their own far right party One Nation, that got a fair bit of support early on, then scandal ridden, buggered off only to come back and get a few people elected in recent years.

Of course you have been trying to link racism to multiculturalism. But you have yet to provide a source that includes racism as part of the definition of what multiculturalism is. Go one wibbs just one!

You have also been happy to dismiss any positives of multiculturalism as not being multiculturalism. Positive Cuisine and culture(Music sport and the arts) benefits to the host nation all dismissed as not multiculturalism.

But racism by a small minority of the host people that's a negative of multiculturalism. An individual crime committed by an immigrant yeah that is another negative for multiculturalism.

Its fallacious reasoning and nothing else.

RobbieTheRobber

RobbieTheRobber wrote: »

Sniping from the ditches again Mike. Do you want to address anything specific I have said. Or will you just throw around ad hominems some more?

You don't say anything specific, it's all gibberish and random. I assume that's deliberate.

RobbieTheRobber

RobbieTheRobber wrote: »

Sniping from the ditches again Mike. Do you want to address anything specific I have said. Or will you just throw around ad hominems some more?

Jeepers Robbie, don't be thinking every post or casual observation is about you!

Wibbs

RobbieTheRobber wrote: »

Of course you have been trying to link racism to multiculturalism. But you have yet to provide a source that includes racism as part of the definition of what multiculturalism is. Go one wibbs just one!

You seem obsessed with definitions. When it suits. Racism and a lowering of wider social trust is a byproduct and a negative one of multiculturalism. It's an intrinsic part of it and demonstrably so. If you deny that you're denying a helluva lot of non native people's direct experience of this social experiment. Maybe you should ask Dr Ebun Joseph on the matter. She's based her entire career on it...

You have also been happy to dismiss any positives of multiculturalism as not being multiculturalism. Positive Cuisine and culture(Music sport and the arts) benefits to the host nation all dismissed as not multiculturalism.

Nope again. I have said that the positives of multiculturalism according to its defenders can only be summed up as charity and exoticism(with a local sideorder of "the Irish were migrants too"). There is also the "doctors and engineers" one which has become a meme on both sides. I have never denied them as positives on the surface, but that's all they are, surface and they're the only arrows in the diversity quiver.

However the negatives are as has been demonstrated time and time again far easier to list and quantify in the real world. This can often be seen in commentary on multicultural nations. So you'll have an example of say a Black mayor of a city lauded as a positive of "diversity", while ignoring the fact that the very reason he or she is being noted is just as much as an exception to the average of those of their background. An equivalent White native mayor won't even register. AKA aren't we great Proinsias, nothing to see here and sure isn't it soooo thrilling we have an Uzbek cafe in [insert overwhelmingly native and White suburb here].

RobbieTheRobber

RobbieTheRobber wrote: »

Of course you have been trying to link racism to multiculturalism. But you have yet to provide a source that includes racism as part of the definition of what multiculturalism is. Go one wibbs just one!

You have also been happy to dismiss any positives of multiculturalism as not being multiculturalism. Positive Cuisine and culture(Music sport and the arts) benefits to the host nation all dismissed as not multiculturalism.

But racism by a small minority of the host people that's a negative of multiculturalism. An individual crime committed by an immigrant yeah that is another negative for multiculturalism.

Its fallacious reasoning and nothing else.

Robbie, are you seriously arguing a negative reaction to multiculturalism is not an aspect of multiculturalism, but cooking is.
And sports.

I've yet to see cooking and sports in a definition of multiculturalism the noun.
You're arguing two things at the same time.
- a definition of a noun , and a meaning/outcome of the same noun.



He can pull on his own big boy pants, bit IIRC, his definition (from below), and aspects of are two different things.
I thought you'd acknowledged his definition...

RobbieTheRobber wrote: »

Well to be honest the definition we are using does make a difference. As we have seen with this thread Multiculturalism means many different things to many different people throughout this thread.
And so to avoid any suggestion of deflection or goal post moving by anyone I thought it would be better to try and agree a common understanding for what is meant by it for this question.
Indeed even the EU acknowledges the issues with defining what multiculturalism means when presenting its own definition.

Now lets go back to your definition.
The first definition you offered is
the state or condition of being multicultural

Do you really need me to declare the positives for this. Do I need to defend the very existence of someone who is multicultural?

Good god man, get your argument in order.

RobbieTheRobber

MikeOxsgreen wrote: »

Robbie, are you seriously arguing a negative reaction to multiculturalism is not an aspect of multiculturalism, but cooking is.
And sports.

I've yet to see cooking and sports in a definition of multiculturalism the noun.
You're arguing two things at the same time.
- a definition of a noun , and a meaning/outcome of the same noun.



He can pull on his own big boy pants, bit IIRC, his definition (from below), and aspects of are two different things.
I thought you'd acknowledged his definition...


Good god man, get your argument in order.

Ah mike honestly go back and read my posts. You are trying to claim I am saying the exact opposite of what I'm saying in my posts.

Are you attempting to gaslight me?

I mean you have quoted my post where I dispute wibbs definition provided and you're saying I acknowledged it.

Yes I acknowledged it wasn't a good definition. It's in the post you quoted

RobbieTheRobber

Wibbs wrote: »

You seem obsessed with definitions. When it suits. Racism and a lowering of wider social trust is a byproduct and a negative one of multiculturalism. It's an intrinsic part of it and demonstrably so. If you deny that you're denying a helluva lot of non native people's direct experience of this social experiment. Maybe you should ask Dr Ebun Joseph on the matter. She's based her entire career on it...
Nope again. I have said that the positives of multiculturalism according to its defenders can only be summed up as charity and exoticism(with a local sideorder of "the Irish were migrants too"). There is also the "doctors and engineers" one which has become a meme on both sides. I have never denied them as positives on the surface, but that's all they are, surface and they're the only arrows in the diversity quiver.

However the negatives are as has been demonstrated time and time again far easier to list and quantify in the real world. This can often be seen in commentary on multicultural nations. So you'll have an example of say a Black mayor of a city lauded as a positive of "diversity", while ignoring the fact that the very reason he or she is being noted is just as much as an exception to the average of those of their background. An equivalent White native mayor won't even register. AKA aren't we great Proinsias, nothing to see here and sure isn't it soooo thrilling we have an Uzbek cafe in [insert overwhelmingly native and White suburb here].

Racism is a crime are you suggesting the fault of that crime lays at the feet of people who are multicultural. Real victim blaming stuff.

My children are multicultural Irish children. If someone is racist to them is that their fault for being multicultural?

RobbieTheRobber

RobbieTheRobber wrote: »

Racism is a crime are you suggesting the fault of that crime lays at the feet of people who are multicultural. Real victim blaming stuff.

Oh come ON!

He's saying that racism is a byproduct of multiculturalism. Which it obviously is. Monocultural societies have far, far less racism, because there are far, far less interactions between people of different ethnicities. Obviously. That is a blame-neutral commentary on what is, not an apportionment of blame.

RobbieTheRobber

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Oh come ON!

He's saying that racism is a byproduct of multiculturalism. Which it obviously is. Monocultural societies have far, far less racism, because there are far, far less interactions between people of different ethnicities. Obviously. That is a blame-neutral commentary on what is, not an apportionment of blame.

That is not true. China is as close to a mono culture as we can expect and the racism is endemic in the country.
What evidence have you got to support your claim mono cultures are not racist?


https://thediplomat.com/2020/04/racism-is-alive-and-well-in-china/

My children are multicultural Irish children if someone is racist to them is that their fault for being multicultural?

So one of the negatives of multiculturalism is racism.
So in order to stop that nasty negative, we should have monocultural societies?
Is that the argument?

Wibbs

RobbieTheRobber wrote: »

Sniping from the ditches again Mike. Do you want to address anything specific I have said. Or will you just throw around ad hominems some more?

Others: question asked. Points made.

You: define question. Define definition. Go off on tangents. Avoid points. Critique others for doing so. Deflect.

Others: Try to accede to your requests for ever more granular definitions.

You: Answer question with the exact same non answers, or half answers as before. Play the victim hoping for a gotcha moment.

Others: Frustration and a growing feeling of pointlessness, because answers aren't forthcoming, make little sense in the context of the discussion, or are the usual deflections.

You are quick to accuse others of not debating in good faith, yet your input is steeped in same.

RobbieTheRobber

RobbieTheRobber wrote: »

That is not true. China is as close to a mono culture as we can expect and the racism is endemic in the country.
What evidence have you got to support your claim mono cultures are not racist?

I didn't claim that monocultural societies are not racist. All societies have racism in them and they likely always will. I said that there is less racism in them because they tend to have less interactions between ethnicities.

If you're a non-ethnically-Chinese person in China, the likelihood that you will individually be discriminated against because of your ethnicity is very high, but the overall rate of racism and racist interactions, and the degree to which those racist interactions affect the society, will be low. Because, again, there are less (per capita) interactions between people of different ethnicities.

RobbieTheRobber

Wibbs wrote: »

Others: question asked. Points made.

You: define question. Define definition. Go off on tangents. Avoid points. Critique others for doing so. Deflect.

Others: Try to accede to your requests for ever more granular definitions.

You: Answer question with the exact same non answers, or half answers as before. Play the victim hoping for a gotcha moment.

Others: Frustration and a growing feeling of pointlessness, because answers aren't forthcoming, make little sense in the context of the discussion, or are the usual deflections.

You are quick to accuse others of not debating in good faith, yet your input is steeped in same.

Can't answer my last question. So you deflect by accusing of deflection.


I guess I'll just wait for your post proclaiming you the winner of the thread again based on something something.... infractions handed out.

My children are multicultural Irish children, if someone is racist to them is that their fault for being multicultural?

China is a mono-culture if you consider China to be made up of just Chinese people. Whereas to the Chinese, there are 56 ethnic groups each with their own cultures. Then, on top of that, there are the Koreans, Mongolians, etc which are part of China but not considered ethnically Chinese. And then, there are the foreign populations, with tens of thousands of Muslims living in most cites, Japanese in the east, Thai and Vietnamese in the south, etc. all of whom have lived a long time in China, but would be considered foreign. In many ways, Japan is more of a monoculture than China is.

China is only a monoculture in that the Han are dominant. Unassailable in that dominance, but there are many cultures living within China's borders.

As for racism.. most Chinese aren't intentionally racist. They're ignorant of other cultures, and racial groups. I once visited the town in the countryside, and I was the first white person ever to go there (according to the local tradition of oral history). The first white person any of the locals had seen with their own eyes, and few of them had the opportunity to speak to me. They remain ignorant of other racial and cultural groups. Most of the racism that occurs in China is accidental, or unintentional. There are very strong themes of nationalism and cultural superiority for some people but honestly, such encounters are rare.

All cultures have degrees of racism, because racism is a human condition due to our tribal attitudes that have not gone away over time. In spite of all the campaigning about racism, I've yet to see any definite plan with specific methods of removing racism entirely. Sure, it's an admirable goal, but it remains a vague objective, without any real consideration that it's very unlikely to ever be fulfilled.

Wibbs

Wibbs wrote: »

Others: question asked. Points made.

You: define question. Define definition. Go off on tangents. Avoid points. Critique others for doing so. Deflect.

Others: Try to accede to your requests for ever more granular definitions.

You: Answer question with the exact same non answers, or half answers as before. Play the victim hoping for a gotcha moment.

Others: Frustration and a growing feeling of pointlessness, because answers aren't forthcoming, make little sense in the context of the discussion, or are the usual deflections.

You are quick to accuse others of not debating in good faith, yet your input is steeped in same.

Exactly. Spot on.

No matter how patient a poster is, the end result is the same. "Frustration and a growing feeling of pointlessness"..

Wibbs

RobbieTheRobber wrote: »

That is not true. China is as close to a mono culture as we can expect and the racism is endemic in the country.
What evidence have you got to support your claim mono cultures are not racist?

China is not monocultural for a start. The Chinese government recognise over fifty ethnic groups living in the place. The Han the majority at 90%. Racism, as far as we might see it anyway(may as well throw in the cultural relativism here for the craic and see how it flies in this case...) is indeed part of Chinese culture. It's actually a part of most East Asian cultures. Japan is even more obvious about it. Not just there either. It's endemic to pretty much everywhere. Them and Us is it seems part and parcel of human nature and culture and it doesn't have to be about race and skin colour either. The earlier referenced so called "cultural racism" and feelings among native peoples of their culture's superiority is to be found pretty much everywhere. The pattern of Western thought that holds to cultural relativism and a reticence of pride in one's own culture is pretty much entirely a Western construct and regarded with some bemusement beyond those shores.

Mic 1972

bubblypop wrote: »

So one of the negatives of multiculturalism is racism.
So in order to stop that nasty negative, we should have monocultural societies?
Is that the argument?

I'm fine with that argument.
People from other cultures are welcome to join as long as they integrate, which means become part of the local culture

RobbieTheRobber

Deleted User wrote: »

China is a mono-culture if you consider China to be made up of just Chinese people. Whereas to the Chinese, there are 56 ethnic groups each with their own cultures. Then, on top of that, there are the Koreans, Mongolians, etc which are part of China but not considered ethnically Chinese. And then, there are the foreign populations, with tens of thousands of Muslims living in most cites, Japanese in the east, Thai and Vietnamese in the south, etc. all of whom have lived a long time in China, but would be considered foreign. In many ways, Japan is more of a monoculture than China is.

China is only a monoculture in that the Han are dominant. Unassailable in that dominance, but there are many cultures living within China's borders.

As for racism.. most Chinese aren't intentionally racist. They're ignorant of other cultures, and racial groups. I once visited the town in the countryside, and I was the first white person ever to go there (according to the local tradition of oral history). The first white person any of the locals had seen with their own eyes, and few of them had the opportunity to speak to me. They remain ignorant of other racial and cultural groups. Most of the racism that occurs in China is accidental, or unintentional. There are very strong themes of nationalism and cultural superiority for some people but honestly, such encounters are rare.

All cultures have degrees of racism, because racism is a human condition due to our tribal attitudes that have not gone away over time. In spite of all the campaigning about racism, I've yet to see any definite plan with specific methods of removing racism entirely. Sure, it's an admirable goal, but it remains a vague objective, without any real consideration that it's very unlikely to ever be fulfilled.

Ah klaz more of the personal opinion stuff. China has a huge problem with racism deny all you want but as usual you wont provide a link to support.

What's the percentage of Africans in the country, and whats the excuse going to be for blackface and how Africans were treated during covid?

https://www.hrw.org/news/2020/05/05/china-covid-19-discrimination-against-africans

https://www.hrw.org/news/2021/02/18/covid-blackface-tv-chinas-racism-problem-runs-deep

RobbieTheRobber

Mic 1972 wrote: »

I'm fine with that argument.
People from other cultures are welcome to join as long as they integrate, which means become part of the local culture

If they are a person of colour and receive racist abuse for the colour of their skin how should the integrate. A bottle of bleach?

RobbieTheRobber

RobbieTheRobber wrote: »

My children are multicultural Irish children, if someone is racist to them is that their fault for being multicultural?

I'm not sure that children can be individually multicultural. Biracial, maybe? Which would certainly open them up to racist abuse, which is abhorrent. And no, is not their fault, at all.

Mic 1972

RobbieTheRobber wrote: »

If they are a person of colour and receive racist abuse for the colour of their skin how should the integrate. A bottle of bleach?

What they are probably doing is sticking with their own community, thus increasing the divide. They do this because integration is difficult and because it's hard to separate from owns traditions but if you want people to feel part of one country they need to share a common culture and the same set of values