What are your views on Multiculturalism in Ireland? - Threadbanned User List in OP

Wibbs

Deleted User wrote: »

Thanks for the reply.

How does "the society" differ from "the culture" in your view, and in what ways do culture and society affect each other?

If the religion is part of the culture but the consequences of a religious population are not part of the culture, and consequences of a lack of religion are not part of the culture, I'm not clear on what you think culture is, exactly.

Which is not to say that religion is the only important contributing factor to culture, but I would certainly count it as a major one.

You won't get a straight answer to your question, because the notion of cultural relativism is dug in too deep. To say that yes Culture A has negatives around things another culture sees as positives is too judgemental maaan. Even if it's the same population of people.

Sand

Annasopra wrote: »

Its always amusing how a lot of these staunch defenders of womens and LGBT rights come out of the woodwork when they were never seen fighting for them in the first place. Almost like they just want to use Women and LGBT people.

It is wholly unnecessary too. Mass migration and multiculturalism is wholly invalidated because it is bad for indigenous people. The whole debate about whose culture is objectively better is a waste of time. Mass migration disadvantages indigenous people so it is a bad policy and should be ended.

TomTomTim

Annasopra wrote: »

Its always amusing how a lot of these staunch defenders of womens and LGBT rights come out of the woodwork when they were never seen fighting for them in the first place. Almost like they just want to use Women and LGBT people.

Or they simply want to point to your ideological hypocrisy. Those bad rights wingers that you hate, have far more moderate views about LGBT rights, than those who you welcome into our lands.

Annasopra

Annasopra wrote: »

Its always amusing how a lot of these staunch defenders of womens and LGBT rights come out of the woodwork when they were never seen fighting for them in the first place. Almost like they just want to use Women and LGBT people.

The idea that one would be able to tell what another person "fights for" based on their activity on one discussion board is the absolute epitome of ineffectual, shallow online activist thought.

"Here, let me use this profile picture overlay Facebook suggested. That'll learn 'em!" :rolleyes:

enricoh

Annasopra wrote: »

Its always amusing how a lot of these staunch defenders of womens and LGBT rights come out of the woodwork when they were never seen fighting for them in the first place. Almost like they just want to use Women and LGBT people.

Ha, not as amusing as Katherine zappone at the airport with Ibrahim halawa n his supporters. Them roaring Allah Akbar n her with a sheepish head on her!
I wonder will she ever get a guest speaker gig at the next Muslim brotherhood bash!

Marcos

Wibbs wrote: »

You won't get a straight answer to your question, because the notion of cultural relativism is dug in too deep. To say that yes Culture A has negatives around things another culture sees as positives is too judgemental maaan. Even if it's the same population of people.

You won't get a straight answer because those cheerleading for multiculturalism on here haven't got any argument that stands up to reality. As Wibbs and others have asked many times on this thread what are the real benefits of multiculturalism and there has been no answer other than different foods, exoticism* and sure the Irish were emigrants themselves so we have to take in the whole world.

So instead we get accusations of racism/bigotry/wrongthink or whatever else is the term du jour, this thread being a "cesspit" :rolleyes: and lots of deflection by:

• Playing the man, looking for something in their posting history in order to negate any need to answer them because they seem so reprehensible**
• Deliberately ignoring the question
• Misquoting other posters to answer questions that were only in the cheerleaders mind
• Misrepresenting quotes or taking them out of context to answer questions that were only in the cheerleaders mind.
• Projection - accusing others of doing the exact things they are doing themselves e.g. "I'm not deflecting, you're deflecting.***

So you're not going to find a straight answer, but you'll probably see plenty of the above.

*TM Wibbs
** In the cheerleaders mind only.
*** Does this remind anyone of a poster on here?

Mic 1972

Cordell wrote: »

Right and far right have very little in common. As the matter of fact, far right have more in common with the far left than width the moderate right.

You have nothing in common with a far right culture because you are not far right.

I agree with that. In fact it would make more sense to divide politics in democracy v totalitarian extremism

Kermit.de.frog

Wibbs wrote: »

You won't get a straight answer to your question, because the notion of cultural relativism is dug in too deep. To say that yes Culture A has negatives around things another culture sees as positives is too judgemental maaan. Even if it's the same population of people.

In Europe it is truly bizarre that it is far more difficult and awkward to say you are Christian these days then it is to say you are Muslim.

That is down to the intellectual dishonesty on the left many of whom will, often correctly, criticise the Catholic church for certain things but will they utter a word about Islam, or a mosque or an Imam in public?...hell no.

Why won't they do that?

I'll tell yeh straight out - they are scared. Ironically not primarily of muslim reaction although obviously that is a factor - but mostly reaction by their fellow agitators on the left!

They are totally confused and don't seem able to address the fact that the biggest on going emerging threat to freedoms, to the very things they claim to believe in, already practiced at a local level in cities around Europe is not the religions or sects they always give out about. It's the one they don't give out about because they are too frightened to say anything.

DeadHand

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

They are totally confused and don't seem able to address the fact that the biggest on going emerging threat to freedoms, to the very things they claim to believe in, already practiced at a local level in cities around Europe is not the religions or sects they always give out about. It's the one they don't give out about because they are too frightened to say anything.

Which is one factor which makes Islam and Islamism so potent in the West currently: the taboo on honest scrutiny of these powerful ideologies.

With the emergence of hate speech laws, it may well become illegal to criticise Islam in several European societies (including this one) in the near future.

I don’t think it’s possible to overestimate just how dangerous that is at a point in time where Islamism is making its earliest forays onto Europe’s political landscape.

john123470

DeadHand wrote: »

Which is one factor which makes Islam and Islamism so potent in the West currently: the taboo on honest scrutiny of these powerful ideologies.

With the emergence of hate speech laws, it may well become illegal to criticise Islam in several European societies (including this one) in the near future.

I don’t think it’s possible to overestimate just how dangerous that is at a point in time where Islamism is making its earliest forays onto Europe’s political landscape.

Amen

Kermit.de.frog

It is perplexing. Where are the civil rights marches, the activism against the practices in these localities especially when it comes to women?

No where to be seen.

DeadHand

DeadHand wrote: »

Which is one factor which makes Islam and Islamism so potent in the West currently: the taboo on honest scrutiny of these powerful ideologies.

With the emergence of hate speech laws, it may well become illegal to criticise Islam in several European societies (including this one) in the near future.

I don’t think it’s possible to overestimate just how dangerous that is at a point in time where Islamism is making its earliest forays onto Europe’s political landscape.

TBH, I think that before the west can deal with any threat from Islam, it needs to resolve it's own internal problems first. It is the double standards of the social justice movements whether it's feminism, race theory, or whatever, that is opening the door wide for other ideologies (or religion) to be protected and allowed so much leeway in how it behaves.

There is the joke about "first world problems", as a dismissive take on the issues that plague us in society, and most of it comes from the US (and stays there), but considering the influence that American culture has over Europe, it still manages to gain a foothold here quite easily. The examples of BLM/racism, and the Trans "debate" really show just how easily American problems become major concerns in all western nations, but it doesn't stop there.

Western nations really need to start examining whether these ideas and demands for social change are healthy. So many of these movements are implemented without research into the long-term effects on people or society as a whole, but also, how it will affect the different western cultural groups, as they're applied. Dealing with the consequence is inconvenient, and I do think we have our politicians to thank for that, since they rarely, if ever, face any significant consequences for their choices. That extends outwards to the decisions to change society with feel-good measures, without consideration for what happens next, or what happens twenty years from now. Everything is judged in the short term...

The problem is most of these agendas' are divisive in how they're pushed (while constantly referring to past rights movements which weren't aggressive in the same way). There's a very aggressive attitude of US vs Them at play, along with the dumbing down of issues so that there's only right/wrong black/white perspectives being applied, except where it serves to complicate issues so much that the average punter doesn't have a clue as to what's going on. Like, the Trans "debate", and sexuality... like I've read so much on the topic, and yet. I feel completely clueless because the whole thing is incredibly vague and yet, complex. It's confusing (full of contradictions)... and it's intended to be that way. Along with all the double standards and hypocrisies, that have been allowed and even encouraged to exist.

Western society has started, somewhat, to reject the PC and woke culture that's been so present over the last decade and a bit.. but it's being replaced with other movements which stifle honest conversation, and reasoned debate. And until, western society starts limiting these movements, and demanding that they seek social change within more acceptable boundaries/systems, the west will continue to be vulnerable to Islam. or whatever minority, that has been elevated to sainthood (with all the associated protections and benefits) due to their race.

archfi

Deleted User wrote: »

TBH, I think that before the west can deal with any threat from Islam, it needs to resolve it's own internal problems first. It is the double standards of the social justice movements whether it's feminism, race theory, or whatever, that is opening the door wide for other ideologies (or religion) to be protected and allowed so much leeway in how it behaves.

There is the joke about "first world problems", as a dismissive take on the issues that plague us in society, and most of it comes from the US (and stays there), but considering the influence that American culture has over Europe, it still manages to gain a foothold here quite easily. The examples of BLM/racism, and the Trans "debate" really show just how easily American problems become major concerns in all western nations, but it doesn't stop there.

Western nations really need to start examining whether these ideas and demands for social change are healthy. So many of these movements are implemented without research into the long-term effects on people or society as a whole, but also, how it will affect the different western cultural groups, as they're applied. Dealing with the consequence is inconvenient, and I do think we have our politicians to thank for that, since they rarely, if ever, face any significant consequences for their choices. That extends outwards to the decisions to change society with feel-good measures, without consideration for what happens next, or what happens twenty years from now. Everything is judged in the short term...

The problem is most of these agendas' are divisive in how they're pushed (while constantly referring to past rights movements which weren't aggressive in the same way). There's a very aggressive attitude of US vs Them at play, along with the dumbing down of issues so that there's only right/wrong black/white perspectives being applied, except where it serves to complicate issues so much that the average punter doesn't have a clue as to what's going on. Like, the Trans "debate", and sexuality... like I've read so much on the topic, and yet. I feel completely clueless because the whole thing is incredibly vague and yet, complex. It's confusing (full of contradictions)... and it's intended to be that way. Along with all the double standards and hypocrisies, that have been allowed and even encouraged to exist.

Western society has started, somewhat, to reject the PC and woke culture that's been so present over the last decade and a bit.. but it's being replaced with other movements which stifle honest conversation, and reasoned debate. And until, western society starts limiting these movements, and demanding that they seek social change within more acceptable boundaries/systems, the west will continue to be vulnerable to Islam. or whatever minority, that has been elevated to sainthood (with all the associated protections and benefits) due to their race.

Yes, universal liberalism on which the great civil rights movements of MLK, gay pride and 2nd wave liberal feminism were built is directly under attack from critical theories.
Obfuscation of language and objective reality, rewriting of history to suit the desired ideology, usurpation of previous liberal successes and terms even down to their movement names (the nice pretty label on the box, just OPEN it people!)
It's all written right in their texts but the pretty box sucks in a lot of people and institutions.

RobbieTheRobber

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

In Europe it is truly bizarre that it is far more difficult and awkward to say you are Christian these days then it is to say you are Muslim.

That is down to the intellectual dishonesty on the left many of whom will, often correctly, criticise the Catholic church for certain things but will they utter a word about Islam, or a mosque or an Imam in public?...hell no.

Why won't they do that?

I'll tell yeh straight out - they are scared. Ironically not primarily of muslim reaction although obviously that is a factor - but mostly reaction by their fellow agitators on the left!

They are totally confused and don't seem able to address the fact that the biggest on going emerging threat to freedoms, to the very things they claim to believe in, already practiced at a local level in cities around Europe is not the religions or sects they always give out about. It's the one they don't give out about because they are too frightened to say anything.

Would you cop on to your self nearly 80% of the population of Ireland proclaimed themselves Catholic in the 2016 census. That's hardly evidence of fear of saying you are Christian

Now I don't for one second think 80% of the irish population really believe Catholic scripture and allow it to make much difference in their lives but to say people in Ireland find it difficult to proclaim themselves Christian is just stupid. And is not supported by actual evidence or fact.

RobbieTheRobber

Seeing as all the posters in this thread love a good question and are so happy to answer questions let's throw another onto the thread and see who wants to answer.

What are the positives of Irish culture?

No lazy culture answers please, no claiming music arts or sport etc. We don't really have a history of cuisine so I shouldn't need to say that but let's add it the banned list of positives anyway.

RobbieTheRobber

RobbieTheRobber wrote: »

Seeing as all the posters in this thread love a good question and are so happy to answer questions let's throw another onto the thread and see who wants to answer.

What are the positives of Irish culture?

No lazy culture answers please, no claiming music arts or sport etc. We don't really have a history of cuisine so I shouldn't need to say that but let's add it the banned list of positives anyway.

Foremost: A general respect for the individual as an individual and separate from any group or collective, regardless of age, religion, sexuality, sex, etc., and an (evolving) attempt to ensure rights on that basis.

RobbieTheRobber

Deleted User wrote: »

Foremost: A general respect for the individual as an individual and separate from any group or collective, regardless of age, religion, sexuality, sex, etc., and an (evolving) attempt to ensure rights on that basis.

What vague nonsense is this?
Who has a general respect for the individual, this thread is populated mostly by Irish people and there certainly hasn't been a strong focus on respect for the individual, separate from their race or religion. On that basis I call horse manure.

RobbieTheRobber

RobbieTheRobber wrote: »

What vague nonsense is this?
Who has a general respect for the individual, this thread is populated mostly by Irish people and there certainly hasn't been a strong focus on respect for the individual, separate from their race or religion. On that basis I call horse manure.

Look, Robbie, I'm sure you're a prefectly nice individual when not behind a keyboard, but throwing out a question and then waiting in the wings so you can come back frothing and spitting about vaguery and horse manure ain't it, bud.

Maybe you could tell me what you think are the positives of Irish culture, so I can have an idea of the sort of response you'd find acceptable?

RobbieTheRobber

Deleted User wrote: »

Look, Robbie, I'm sure you're a prefectly nice individual when not behind a keyboard, but throwing out a question and then waiting in the wings so you can come back frothing and spitting about vaguery and horse manure ain't it, bud.

Maybe you could tell me what you think are the positives of Irish culture, so I can have an idea of the sort of response you'd find acceptable?

Cymro. This is the exact same question posed of Multicultural society. This thread has found there are no positives to that society. So I thought it would be interesting to reframe the question and look at ourselves as critically as we are judging others.

So I ask again;
What are the positives of Irish culture?

RobbieTheRobber

RobbieTheRobber wrote: »

Cymro. This is the exact same question posed of Multicultural society. This thread has found there are no positives to that society. So I thought it would be interesting to reframe the question and look at ourselves as critically as we are judging others.

So I ask again;
What are the positives of Irish culture?

Yes yes yes. I know what you asked, dear. I answered, and you told me that you found the answer unacceptable. So I am asking you to give me an example of an answer you would find acceptable, so that I can better understand what you're looking for and attempt to answer again.

But of course, you already knew that.

RobbieTheRobber

Deleted User wrote: »

Yes yes yes. I know what you asked, dear. I answered, and you told me that you found the answer unacceptable. So I am asking you to give me an example of an answer you would find acceptable, so that I can better understand what you're looking for and attempt to answer again.

But of course, you already knew that.

I am asking the question of the thread. What would be the purpose of asking a question and answering it myself?

RobbieTheRobber

RobbieTheRobber wrote: »

I am asking the question of the thread. What would be the purpose of asking a question and answering it myself?

Well the purpose would be to respond to someone who made a good-faith attempt to answer, which you dismissed as horse manure. When you did that, became my suspicion that you are not particularly interested in an answer so much as you are interested in inducing a bad-faith discussion wherein any and every answer given is dismissed as horse manure (or similar) by you, so that you can feel somehow vindicated on behalf of the "pro-multiculturalism" argument, which seems to have failed thus far to outline any substantial benefits.

The onus is now on you to provide an example of the sort of answer you would find acceptable, else we find ourselves at an impasse, since I am not willing to spend my time giving increasingly specific answers without you giving at least some indication of what sort of answer, what level of specificity, you would find acceptable.

To wit; the ball is in your court and I would like you to stop purposely smashing it into the net.

Cordell

RobbieTheRobber wrote: »

What are the positives of Irish culture?

You mean apart from human rights, freedom and equality?

RobbieTheRobber

Deleted User wrote: »

Well the purpose would be to respond to someone who made a good-faith attempt to answer, which you dismissed as horse manure. When you did that, became my suspicion that you are not particularly interested in an answer so much as you are interested in inducing a bad-faith discussion wherein any and every answer given is dismissed as horse manure (or similar) by you, so that you can feel somehow vindicated on behalf of the "pro-multiculturalism" argument, which seems to have failed thus far to outline any substantial benefits.

The onus is now on you to provide an example of the sort of answer you would find acceptable, else we find ourselves at an impasse, since I am not willing to spend my time giving increasingly specific answers without you giving at least some indication of what sort of answer, what level of specificity, you would find acceptable.

To wit; the ball is in your court and I would like you to stop purposely smashing it into the net.

Why not go and check out my response to Wibbs when he proposed this very question of multiculturalism. See the responses to my reply to this question.


This thread has been very critical of Islam as a single all encompassing entity (read the posts above mine for examples) and has not sought to deal with people of the Muslim faith as individuals regardless of their race or religion as you claimed in your reply. So no Cymro I cant accept your answer as true based on the evidence of this thread alone.

Hope you are happy now buddy. Any other positives you can thing of?

RobbieTheRobber

Cordell wrote: »

You mean apart from human rights, freedom and equality?

Which human rights?
and human rights, freedom and equality these are specific to Irish culture in what way and since when?

RobbieTheRobber

RobbieTheRobber wrote: »

Why not go and check out my response to Wibbs when he proposed this very question of multiculturalism. See the responses to my reply to this question.


This thread has been very critical of Islam as a single all encompassing entity (read the posts above mine for examples) and has not sought to deal with people of the Muslim faith as individuals regardless of their race or religion as you claimed in your reply. So no Cymro I cant accept your answer as true based on the evidence of this thread alone.

Hope you are happy now buddy. Any other positives you can thing of?

I'm not going back through a 650 page thread to pick out your posts. You are right here.

You can either give me an example of what you consider an acceptable answer to the question "what are the positive about Irish culture" or you can wait for some other chump to come along and mistake you for a good-faith actor long enough to try and engage.

Cordell

RobbieTheRobber wrote: »

Which human rights?
and human rights, freedom and equality these are specific to Irish culture in what way?

Irish culture is part of the wider western culture.
The western culture is the one that brought all advancements and progress we enjoy today.

RobbieTheRobber

Cordell wrote: »

Irish culture is part of the wider western culture.
The western culture is the one that brought all advancements and progress we enjoy today.

So not Irish Culture then right?

I mean I did specifically ask about Irish Culture.

RobbieTheRobber

Deleted User wrote: »

I'm not going back through a 650 page thread to pick out your posts. You are right here.

You can either give me an example of what you consider an acceptable answer to the question "what are the positive about Irish culture" or you can wait for some other chump to come along and mistake you for a good-faith actor long enough to try and engage.

No need for the ad hominem Cymro, if you cant answer the question then don't, but you don't have to try and insult me to cover up for your lack of an answer.

RobbieTheRobber

RobbieTheRobber wrote: »

No need for the ad hominem Cymro

No reasonable person reading this discussion will read my response to you as ad hominem. You are doing yourself no favours here.

RobbieTheRobber wrote: »

if you cant answer the question

I already answered the question. You rejected my answer. I asked you to clarify, by way of example, what sort of answer you are looking for. You are refusing.

Entirely your prerogative, of course, but you nonetheless bring the discussion to a logical end point with that choice.