What are your views on Multiculturalism in Ireland? - Threadbanned User List in OP

Cordell

RobbieTheRobber wrote: »

So not Irish Culture then right?

I mean I did specifically ask about Irish Culture.

All the values of the western culture are also values of the Irish culture, they are inseparable.

RobbieTheRobber

Cordell wrote: »

All the values of the western culture are also values of the Irish culture, they are inseparable.

All of them?
So name one and lets link it specifically to Irish people and culture and see if it stands up.

RobbieTheRobber

Deleted User wrote: »

No reasonable person reading this discussion will read my response to you as ad hominem. You are doing yourself no favours here.



I already answered the question. You rejected my answer. I asked you to clarify, by way of example, what sort of answer you are looking for. You are refusing.

Entirely your prerogative, of course, but you nonetheless bring the discussion to a logical end point with that choice.

Come on Cymro answer the question in the words of Wibbs!

Wibbs wrote: »

No flilflam about definitions, no defection, no reframing.

RobbieTheRobber

RobbieTheRobber wrote: »

So not Irish Culture then right?

I mean I did specifically ask about Irish Culture.

Well you have placed a ban on arts, cuisine, sports, etc so I'm assuming language, mythology, storytelling , known for being highly social, being held in high regard (mostly) throughout the world, historically Catholic, poetic etc are all banned too?

All of which are valuable and important parts of our impact on the western culture as a whole.

Cordell

RobbieTheRobber wrote: »

All of them?
So name one and lets link it specifically to Irish people and culture and see if it stands up.

All of them. You can't separate them, western cultures evolved together as THE western culture with it's values that we value today.
And because we're going into the "what have the Romans ever done for us" territory please excuse me now.

RobbieTheRobber

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Well you have placed a ban on arts, cuisine, sports, etc so I'm assuming language, mythology, storytelling , known for being highly social, being held in high regard (mostly) throughout the world, historically Catholic, poetic etc are all banned too?

All of which are valuable and important parts of our impact on the western culture as a whole.

Yeah banned as a positive for multiculturalism so banned here sorry dunne.

Catholicism is imported and it is not distinct to Irish culture and is our Catholicism a positive?

RobbieTheRobber

Cordell wrote: »

All of them. You can't separate them, western cultures evolved together as THE western culture with it's values that we value today.
And because we're going into the "what have the Romans ever done for us" territory please excuse me now.

OK so give me one and we can consider it in the irish context.

RobbieTheRobber

RobbieTheRobber wrote: »

Yeah banned as a positive for multiculturalism so banned here sorry dunne.

Catholicism is imported and it is not distinct to Irish culture and is our Catholicism a positive?

Id say it is much more positive than an Islamic culture.

But it's ok Robbie, I've no intention of discussing the merits of Irish and western culture under your outlined parameters.

RobbieTheRobber

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Id say it is much more positive than an Islamic culture.

But it's ok Robbie, I've no intention of discussing the merits of Irish and western culture under your outlined parameters.

I'm not asking you to compare.
I'm asking was Catholicism a positive force in Irish culture?


My outlined parameters, I just extended the exclusions applied to multiculturalism on this thread.

TomTomTim

RobbieTheRobber wrote: »

I'm not asking you to compare.
I'm asking was Catholicism a positive force in Irish culture?


My outlined parameters, I just extended the exclusions applied to multiculturalism on this thread.

What exactly is your aim here? You seem to jump around from point to point, hardly knowing what you're doing, or what you want from the conversation.

RobbieTheRobber

TomTomTim wrote: »

What exactly is your aim here? You seem to jump around from point to point, hardly knowing what you're doing, or what you want from the conversation.

I am merely seeking to apply the same criteria applied to multiculturalism on this thread to Irish Culture and then seeking to discuss the positives people raise.

If we can ask the question of multiculturalism surely it would only be fair to reflect that question back on ourselves and answer it. If the question is fair we should have no problem answering it!

RobbieTheRobber

RobbieTheRobber wrote: »

If we can ask the question of multiculturalism surely it would only be fair to reflect that question back on ourselves and answer it. If the question is fair we should have no problem answering it!

Except, you've shown that you have no interest in dealing with what others have written in answer to your question. Cymro answered you, and you dismissed their contribution out of hand, without even trying to constructively expand on what they'd said.

At least when it comes to multiculturalism, posters are willing to discuss the various aspects associated. If you'd wanted something similar for Irish culture, then, you should have encouraged discourse, not shut it down. Probably the reason why others haven't rushed to answer your question on Irish culture... because you've shown you don't have any real interest in discussing it.

RobbieTheRobber

Deleted User wrote: »

Except, you've shown that you have no interest in dealing with what others have written in answer to your question. Cymro answered you, and you dismissed their contribution out of hand, without even trying to constructively expand on what they'd said.

At least when it comes to multiculturalism, posters are willing to discuss the various aspects associated. If you'd wanted something similar for Irish culture, then, you should have encouraged discourse, not shut it down. Probably the reason why others haven't rushed to answer your question on Irish culture... because you've shown you don't have any real interest in discussing it.

So is this post an example of how I should engage with other posters in this thread Klaz?
One positive of Irish culture Klaz.
So far the only real suggestion is Catholicism and I'm going to be honest I don't think that can be considered positive in an Irish culture context.

What's tragic, is people debating in good faith with Robbie, to find there actually is no goal, not to mind it constantly being shifted.

I mean you could benchmark Ireland against international standards, our standing in UN/OECD ratings, and produce health, education, literacy rares, welfare standards, relatively transparent security and policing , the mature legal and democratic system with enfranchisement for all, the free press, a planning and development process, protection of children and minors and how as a society we're outraged when things go wrong, the rights of women being equal to men, free expressions of gender identity, free expression of religion albeit evolving to much more secular one, animal welfare protections, investment in rural and deprived areas by a central government, protection of the environment and public health, a historic love of music, sports, film and storytelling, a strong County identify, an affinity with the plucky underdog, an internationally recognised voice for oppressed nations and contribution to global peace as opposed to warmongering.

But why bother. I know I won't.

I can't for the life of me think of one positive of Irish culture, I mean who would even want to come here...

Why are we even having a conversation on inward migration and the risk of multiculturalism to Irish culture.

RobbieTheRobber

RobbieTheRobber wrote: »

So is this post an example of how I should engage with other posters in this thread Klaz?

Nope.

One positive of Irish culture Klaz.
So far the only real suggestion is Catholicism and I'm going to be honest I don't think that can be considered positive in an Irish culture context.

Ahh well, I'd struggle to define anything unique about Irish culture anymore. I used to think that the combination of the traditional pub culture along with our live music, (along with poetry) were distinctive parts of Irish culture which fed into many other area, but the pub culture is pretty much dead now.

TBH most of the things I would have considered being Irish have diminished significantly over the last two decades, but then, I don't actually spend much time here in Ireland going out. I doubt I'd be best placed to describe what modern Irish culture consists of.

One thing about Catholicism, is that regardless of where you go in Europe, you will find countries that were shaped by it's presence as part of their cultures. They all were shaped differently though, based on their own circumstances, and reaction to events. Naturally enough. However, the point being that Irish people were shaped by Catholicism in ways that were different to other cultural groups.

I see Catholicism as being a combination of positives and negatives. It would be very difficult to separate our sense of morality from the influences of the RCC. I'm sure it could be done, but I doubt it would be terribly accurate. IMO the RCC influenced so much in Ireland, that any positives or negatives in this country, can all be traced back to that religion.,. (either because of, or in reaction to it)

One positive of Irish culture. Directness and general honesty. Irish people are generally very direct in expressing themselves, and there aren't the layers of hidden meanings that you often find in other cultures. Comparing Irish people with Spanish or Italians, or even Germans, you'll often find the Irish to be far more direct and honest about their intentions. Now, I dunno, how true that is anymore... it could be something that has been discarded but most people I know over 30 tend to reflect such a sense of behavior.

john123470

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Except, you've shown that you have no interest in dealing with what others have written in answer to your question. Cymro answered you, and you dismissed their contribution out of hand, without even trying to constructively expand on what they'd said

There are a few of them on here.
Their MO is to ask you what you think before proceeding to tell you what to think, not unlike certain ideologies under discussion

They bark and bellow at you too .. bit like that chap on the video earlier

You can't Reason with them coz Reasoning is not allowed

Just say no

Dyr

TomTomTim wrote: »

What exactly is your aim here? You seem to jump around from point to point, hardly knowing what you're doing, or what you want from the conversation.

Common enough tactic, spam away, try drag threads down dead ends, over and over.

Marcos

TomTomTim wrote: »

What exactly is your aim here? You seem to jump around from point to point, hardly knowing what you're doing, or what you want from the conversation.

Well if someone wanted to derail a thread by trying to direct it down various cul de sacs and not addressing any answers given, wouldn’t this be a way to do it?

Other people have noted the same tactic.

Deleted User wrote: »

Except, you've shown that you have no interest in dealing with what others have written in answer to your question. Cymro answered you, and you dismissed their contribution out of hand, without even trying to constructively expand on what they'd said.

At least when it comes to multiculturalism, posters are willing to discuss the various aspects associated. If you'd wanted something similar for Irish culture, then, you should have encouraged discourse, not shut it down. Probably the reason why others haven't rushed to answer your question on Irish culture... because you've shown you don't have any real interest in discussing it.

MikeOxsgreen wrote: »

What's tragic, is people debating in good faith with Robbie, to find there actually is no goal, not to mind it constantly being shifted.

Dyr wrote: »

Common enough tactic, spam away, try drag threads down dead ends, over and over.

It's almost like someone is arguing in bad faith here. :rolleyes:

To be fair, most of the posters on here are willing to argue in good faith and engage respectfully with others that don't have the same view. Some others however don't, and I think people looking at this thread can identify who is who.

Marcos

Another question that comes to mind is who exactly benefits from multiculturalism in Ireland now? There's such a push for it, that it has to benefit somebody, right?

Could it be employers seeking to keep wages low. The 2019 Central Bank Report stated that there weren't enough migrants arriving to wages low. Strangely if you look at the minutes of the Dublin Trades Councils in 1914 on bringing Belgian Workers to Dublin James Connolly argued that they they posed a threat to the already precarious conditions and wages of Irish workers at the time. So while coming at it from a different angle the Central Bank agrees with James Connolly's analysis.

Mette Friedriksen the Danish Social Democrats Prime Minister also notes similarities, she said that

It is becoming increasingly clear that the price of unregulated globalisation, mass immigration and the free movement of labour is paid for by the lower classes.”

Could it be vulture funds and landlords who get to charge extortionate rents while knowing that demand for homes is going to outstrip supply for the forseeable future? Most people under 30 can't see themselves ever owning their own home and as today's Examiner shows a quarter of people renting today are renting by choice. So that's three quarters of people who are renting would prefer to have their own homes.

That's just two that I can think of, off the top of my head. I'm sure others can come up with some more.

RobbieTheRobber

Deleted User wrote: »

Nope.



Ahh well, I'd struggle to define anything unique about Irish culture anymore. I used to think that the combination of the traditional pub culture along with our live music, (along with poetry) were distinctive parts of Irish culture which fed into many other area, but the pub culture is pretty much dead now.

TBH most of the things I would have considered being Irish have diminished significantly over the last two decades, but then, I don't actually spend much time here in Ireland going out. I doubt I'd be best placed to describe what modern Irish culture consists of.

One thing about Catholicism, is that regardless of where you go in Europe, you will find countries that were shaped by it's presence as part of their cultures. They all were shaped differently though, based on their own circumstances, and reaction to events. Naturally enough. However, the point being that Irish people were shaped by Catholicism in ways that were different to other cultural groups.

I see Catholicism as being a combination of positives and negatives. It would be very difficult to separate our sense of morality from the influences of the RCC. I'm sure it could be done, but I doubt it would be terribly accurate. IMO the RCC influenced so much in Ireland, that any positives or negatives in this country, can all be traced back to that religion.,. (either because of, or in reaction to it)

One positive of Irish culture. Directness and general honesty. Irish people are generally very direct in expressing themselves, and there aren't the layers of hidden meanings that you often find in other cultures. Comparing Irish people with Spanish or Italians, or even Germans, you'll often find the Irish to be far more direct and honest about their intentions. Now, I dunno, how true that is anymore... it could be something that has been discarded but most people I know over 30 tend to reflect such a sense of behavior.

The modern Ireland we are using in this thread to claim superiority is I would argue as a result of shaking off the catholic hold on the country over the past 30 years. So I really can't agree it as a positive.

How many Irish women left Ireland not just for abortions not available in Ireland but because of the cultural shame of being a single mother in this country. I am not talking hundred of years ago but people I met and knew during my 40 odd years in the country. And this was because of Irish Catholic culture how many more to mother and baby homes. And this is just one small slice of the issues I would have with promoting catholic Ireland as a positive.

So despite any positives you might associate with Catholic Ireland I could never view it as a positive nor distinctly Irish.

RobbieTheRobber

MikeOxsgreen wrote: »

What's tragic, is people debating in good faith with Robbie, to find there actually is no goal, not to mind it constantly being shifted.

I mean you could benchmark Ireland against international standards, our standing in UN/OECD ratings, and produce health, education, literacy rares, welfare standards, relatively transparent security and policing , the mature legal and democratic system with enfranchisement for all, the free press, a planning and development process, protection of children and minors and how as a society we're outraged when things go wrong, the rights of women being equal to men, free expressions of gender identity, free expression of religion albeit evolving to much more secular one, animal welfare protections, investment in rural and deprived areas by a central government, protection of the environment and public health, a historic love of music, sports, film and storytelling, a strong County identify, an affinity with the plucky underdog, an internationally recognised voice for oppressed nations and contribution to global peace as opposed to warmongering.

But why bother. I know I won't.

I can't for the life of me think of one positive of Irish culture, I mean who would even want to come here...

Why are we even having a conversation on inward migration and the risk of multiculturalism to Irish culture.

Mike their is no goal to discussion everything we argue about in CA is for nought.
We are all anonymous nobodies and none of our arguments here will have any effect on the policy of the state.
What Goal do you think there is to derive form this thread for anybody?


I mean your making my argument for me mike you haven't yet produced a single unique positive thing about Irish culture.

RobbieTheRobber

RobbieTheRobber wrote: »

The modern Ireland we are using in this thread to claim superiority is I would argue as a result of shaking off the catholic hold on the country over the past 30 years. So I really can't agree it as a positive.

You're simplifying things too much.

Firstly, the claim that people are suggesting some kind of superiority (the arguments made by others were varied), and secondly, the influence of the Catholic faith over Irish culture, is not the same as the Catholic "hold" over Irish society. Just as you're bypassing the point about there being positives, since I referred that to our sense of morality, which is deeply rooted in our Catholic backgrounds, in conjunction with general western culture... but again, a lot of that comes as a reaction to the presence of Catholicism in Western culture/society.

Oh. And what about my positive of Irish culture? Since that was apparently so important, but you've ignored it completely.

kildare lad

RobbieTheRobber wrote: »

Mike their is no goal to discussion everything we argue about in CA is for nought.
We are all anonymous nobodies and none of our arguments here will have any effect on the policy of the state.
What Goal do you think there is to derive form this thread for anybody?


I mean your making my argument for me mike you haven't yet produced a single unique positive thing about Irish culture.

Gaa, traditional Irish music , great pubs , great writers and storytellers , the like of Riverdance brought Irish dancing to the global scale . And you've to take into account the the British tried to suppress everything Irish for 800 years . Modern society has diluted most cultures across 1st world countries anyway . You sound like someone that's hates being Irish and would rather see the country full up with migrants to bring a bit of culture to Ireland .

My towns full of all different nationalities , do I feel like I'm living in some sort of utopia .... No Do black people in my town go around dressed in traditional African clothing , they don't. They wear the same clothes as you or I and so do their kids , except for a few teens that dress and act like they're from south Central L.A . Theres a polish shop that's busy and there's an Indian shop that no one goes into . Theres a few different takeways from different countries , Italian , Chinese , Turkish and that's about it . Maybe I'm not as enlightened as you are but I don't feel this great multicultural vibe that people like yourself tells us is so important . All I see is people from other countries trying to work and being up their kids . I've worked with tonnes of people from Eastern Europe , we talk , do our work and go home , am I missing out on something because they seem just like normal people ... Maybe I just ignorant with this multiculturalism malarkey .

crooked cockney villain

While most suicides are a tragedy, and direct provision is probably boring (boring, but still better than any of them deserve), this piece in the Examiner yesterday was staggering "journalism".

Over 100,000 people have sought asylum in Ireland by now, most of whom lived in DP for some stage.

Source from 2015 https://www.rte.ie/iu/asylum/#year

In any community of 100,000 people over 20 years there will be dozens of suicides, maybe hundreds.

I'd like a study of how many have passed through the system, I'd wager the suicide rate in it over 20 years has been many times lower than the amount of suicides in an Irish county of roughly the same population, say Louth.

There were 421 suicides in Ireland in 2019. Louth has circa 3% of the national population, so we will say 13 suicides there.

13 x 20 = 260.

Let's bring it down to 220 to account for population growth.

If 220 people in DP have committed suicide since 2000 I'll eat my own hand.




The Examiner piece fails the smell test on many fronts.

https://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:4qwJtnNhREkJ:https://www.irishexaminer.com/news/spotlight/arid-40322225.html+&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=ie

1- How dangerous of a country is Bolivia? Mirko is a highly unusual name for a South American, was he even from here? Have they mistaken Bosnia for Bolivia? And if so, why do we have Bosnians claiming asylum nearly 30 years after the end of war?

2- How did this Lucky Khambule chap end up being granted asylum after coming from South Africa, arguably the safest (it's not a high bar granted) most politically stable state in sub Saharan Africa?

3- Why didn't the Afghan claim asylum in Malaysia?

4- An asylum seeker from the ****ing USA of all places. How is such a beyond spurious claim even entertained? The fact he even found himself in such a position would suggest his psychological issues began long before he found himself in DP.

5- A woman seemingly gets into political bother in Nigeria at the ripe old age of 48 and flees to a country where she just so happens to have relatives.

Listen, all these deaths are sad, but what sort of editorial policy allows a story with such a litany of spurious claimants featured to make it to print?

Kermit.de.frog

RobbieTheRobber wrote: »

What are the positives of Irish culture?

RobbieTheRobber

RobbieTheRobber wrote: »

Mike their is no goal to discussion everything we argue about in CA is for nought.
We are all anonymous nobodies and none of our arguments here will have any effect on the policy of the state.
What Goal do you think there is to derive form this thread for anybody?


I mean your making my argument for me mike you haven't yet produced a single unique positive thing about Irish culture.

What is culture Robbie?
What do you understand by the word 'culture'?

Cordell

kildare lad wrote: »

Gaa, traditional Irish music , great pubs , great writers and storytellers , the like of Riverdance brought Irish dancing to the global scale

But camel racing, halal music (no pitched instruments, just percussion), no alcohol, no books, men only dancing are just as good

You fell for it What you listed are indeed things that are making life enjoyable, but the core western values are those that make life worth living. They are not specifically Irish, but they are Irish and French and German and American all the same. Western values, they are those that make our culture superior. After all, computers and internet, i.e. what makes this very conversation possible, is the result of western science and, why not, capitalism.

Cordell

Cordell wrote: »

But camel racing, halal music (no pitched instruments, just percussion), no alcohol, no books, men only dancing are just as good

You fell for it What you listed are indeed things that are making life enjoyable, but the core western values are those that make life worth living. They are not specifically Irish, but they are Irish and French and German and American all the same. Western values, they are those that make our culture superior. After all, computers and internet, i.e. what makes this very conversation possible, is the result of western science and, why not, capitalism.

Oooooooooh you're in for it now......

Annasopra

Cordell wrote: »

But camel racing, halal music (no pitched instruments, just percussion), no alcohol, no books, men only dancing are just as good

You fell for it What you listed are indeed things that are making life enjoyable, but the core western values are those that make life worth living. They are not specifically Irish, but they are Irish and French and German and American all the same. Western values, they are those that make our culture superior. After all, computers and internet, i.e. what makes this very conversation possible, is the result of western science and, why not, capitalism.

Isnt that multiculturalism then? You know Westerm Culture being a multiplicity of cultures from Akerica and many European countries.

Cordell

No, not really, or it's the good kind of multiculturalism, where the cultures share the core values, they complement each other, and they have more in common than they have differences. Let me put it this way: in this "multiplicity of cultures" no american will be beheaded some italian just because they put pineapple on pizza.