What are your views on Multiculturalism in Ireland? - Threadbanned User List in OP

RobbieTheRobber

JupiterKid wrote: »

Unchecked immigration of people who are completely culturally different into any given nation is a very bad idea. Only tension, resentment and discord can result.

I have no problem of immigration if it is regulated and those who come a host country abide by its laws and customs, and learn the native language. We need integration, not multiculturalism - which is really a lazy was of claiming to “respect” immigrant cultures whilst really doing nothing at all.

And then there is Herrnstein and Murray’s highly controversial nook, The Bell Curve (1994), which claims that race, ethnicity and intellgence levels appear to be closely linked. The nook, has of course been criticized and its central thesis questioned, but I believe there is a kernel of uncomfortable truth in the book.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Bell_Curve

Anyone who believes intelligence is linked to ethnicity or race is a racist!
A stupid stupid racist

john123470

RobbieTheRobber wrote: »

Anyone who believes intelligence is linked to ethnicity or race is a racist!
A stupid stupid racist

I'm a bit confused here.

Is a "stupid, stupid racist" twice as bad as a "stupid racist" or a "racist who isn't stupid but still a racist" or are they all to be lumped together ?

Thanks

RobbieTheRobber

john123470 wrote: »

I'm a bit confused here.

Is a "stupid, stupid racist" twice as bad as a "stupid racist" or a "racist who isn't stupid but still a racist" or are they all to be lumped together ?

Thanks

All racists are stupid.

I used the same word twice for emphasis also known as Epizeuxis

Epizeuxis

In rhetoric, epizeuxis is the repetition of a word or phrase in immediate succession, typically within the same sentence, for vehemence or emphasis.[1] A closely related rhetorical device is diacope, which involves word repetition that is broken up by a single intervening word, or a small number of intervening words.[2]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epizeuxis#:~:text=In%20rhetoric%2C%20epizeuxis%20is%20the,sentence%2C%20for%20vehemence%20or%20emphasis.

john123470

RobbieTheRobber wrote: »

All racists are stupid.

I used the same word twice for emphasis also known as Epizeuxis



https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epizeuxis#:~:text=In%20rhetoric%2C%20epizeuxis%20is%20the,sentence%2C%20for%20vehemence%20or%20emphasis.

So, 'All racists are stupid stupid', you mean ?

RobbieTheRobber

john123470 wrote: »

So, 'All racists are stupid stupid', you mean ?

Do you think that race and intelligence are linked or do you think that is stupid?

john123470

RobbieTheRobber wrote: »

Do you think that race and intelligence are linked or do you think that is stupid?

What i think is 'stupid stupid' is allowing vast hoards of people who disagree with my values and way of life into my country to set up house and home

That would be very stupid stupid stupid

jmreire

MarkEadie wrote: »

Perhaps you should have read the placards in the picture before posting that you think the majority of Muslim men hold the same views as those holding the placards. As you said you thought the majority of Muslim men held the same views as the ones who held the placards, I assumed you meant that you thought the majority of Muslim men held the same views as the ones holding the placards. Perhaps you should reread what you have written my friend. In fairness to Wibbs he was quick enough pulling you up on it.

The bottom line MarkEadie is that these sentiments about beheading and killing all who offend Islam ( or slam, if you prefer) should not be tolerated at all, by any one. And it does not matter what % of Muslims is or not in favour of them. Even one Muslim in favour is one too many.

Cordell

correct horse battery staple wrote: »

https://i.redd.it/50oh22v0p9971.jpg

Perhaps if we were more multicultural we be in euros semi finals now

But will that be Ireland there?

Dyr

RobbieTheRobber wrote: »

Do you think that race and intelligence are linked or do you think that is stupid?

You do know that Ashkenazi Jews have a higher average IQ than other "races"?

You know that, right?

Is this the latest alley this thread is going down with your nonsense?

Salvation Tambourine

bubblypop wrote: »

Good job we have controlled immigration and that all have to abide by our laws.

You keep saying this and it's still not entirely true

Salvation Tambourine wrote: »

Controlled immigration that has allowed, according to the Department of Justice, at least 17,000 people become undocumented.

Controlled immigration that when asked cannot give figures on how many people have been deported after being given a deportation notice.

Does that sound controlled?

Please stop saying this as if it's fact.

Wibbs

Dyr wrote: »

You do know that Ashkenazi Jews have a higher average IQ than other "races"?

You know that, right?

Is this the latest alley this thread is going down with your nonsense?

Do I think some populations are more likely to have an average measured IQ than others? Yep. However I don't believe it's down to race, though may play out that way on the surface. For a start how are the IQ tests framed? They're largely a western concept and invention so may trend towards "rewarding" a western type mind. Secondly the innovation and intelligence of different populations can pretty clearly change over time. So go back to the times of ancient Greece and if there were a Nobel prize it would pretty much be overrun with Greeks, with a smattering of Chinese. Jews would barely figure if at all. Italians would be on the back foot and Germans, Dutch, British "anglo saxons" etc would be nowhere. Go further back and it would be Arabs. Go further forward to the early Medieval and it would be loads of Arabs and Chinese, with few enough Europeans(though a few Paddies in the mix). Move more forward and the Arabs go out of the running near overnight and Europeans go to the top. Then even within Europe it drifts from almost exclusively southern Europe to northern over time. The same "race". To your 1st century southern European the northern Europeans were a bunch of interesting savages they feared or fetishised or laughed at, but didn't hold a candle to their genius. To a 19th century northern European the southern Europeans had become a bunch of over emotional feckless eejits long past their glory.

IQ, intelligence and innovation appears to be strongly correlated with culture. To have the brains in ascendence you need a cultural drive for it that rewards those brains. You need a culture that allows for innovation, a culture that allows for social mobility based on it. There are a lot of variables going on.

Take China and Chinese culture as an example. Today on the interwebs Chinese helicopter parents driving their kids to do well in exams is a big meme. EG



So where did this come from? Are the Chinese just "naturally" better at exams and study? Nope. Now there are pressures in some diasporas to do better and that can be in play in ex colonies like the US, but it runs way deeper than that. The Chinese empire from its foundation had the largest population on the planet and they needed feeding and controlling. NOw though it had existed in some form before in places like the ancient Middle East, China basically invented the first big state bureaucracy and that required bureaucrats and trained ones. By the fifth century they came up with China's imperial examination system, whereby young men from across the empire could study and pass exams and rise higher in the social strata. It was pretty much the only way to advance as Chinese societies unlike most European societies had very few other avenues for social mobility. This was a huge positive pressure for exam success, though the exams themselves made conformity a virtue and thinking outside the box was frowned upon. Those imperial exams lasted until 1900. So for over 1600 years, generation, after generation, exam success was the thing for social advancement in that culture. The above meme has a lot to do with that even today.

JupiterKid

MarkEadie wrote: »

That's been discredited many times over but since you believe it, why would you want people you deem intellectually inferior to come here and integrate?

I actually don't agree with the central, highly controversial thesis of The Bell Curve (I read it about 15 years ago) but I do think that there is much in the book that merits further examination, particularly how cultural factors can produce very different educational outcomes.

Integration and control on the numbers is the key to successful immigration - otherwise, a flood of immigrants just puts immense pressure on already overburdened and utterly dysfunctional housing systems, schools, social services, health services, amenities etc. It's just common sense.

Immigration also drives down wages in local labour markets and the increased competition for jobs and opportunities tends to piss off the native population and foster resentment, racism and xenophobia.

But the neoliberal economic agenda much of the West has been ascribing to in recent decades sees unfettered immigration as a good thing because it keeps wages down and weakens the power of labour unions. To hell with the social consequences - it's all about the economy and profits for proponents of mass immigration.

It's very convenient for the cheerleaders of neoliberalism that the public discourse in Western Europe and elsewhere has framed those concerned with unchecked immigration as "racists and xenophobes" - the old divide and conquer tactic very much at play. Pitting one against the other in a "black and white" ideological battle whern the reality is far more complex and nuanced.

But then, complex and nuanced issues don't sell tabloid newspapers, act as media clickbait or get opinionated commentators on TV debates because it's just so much easier to frame the issue in an "us and them" scenario.

Dyr

Wibbs wrote: »

hey're largely a western concept and invention so may trend towards "rewarding" a western type mind.

Which is why the Japanese and Chinese score so highly..their big western type minds


IQ makes people very uncomfortable and tends to start all sort of conjecture and dissembling, like "what is intelligence anyway?"

Fun stuff.

As to whether its culture/environment or genetic, it doesnt matter imo. The differences exist and they're not going to change in a few lifetimes

Wibbs

Wibbs wrote: »

Those imperial exams lasted until 1900. So for over 1600 years, generation, after generation, exam success was the thing for social advancement in that culture. The above meme has a lot to do with that even today.

I'd say that S.Koreans blow the Chinese out of the water when it comes to study and exams... but yes, definitely, there is the common belief that intelligence is tied to blood type.

In the case of Chinese state exams, and bureaucracy, it also encouraged the corruption that continues to this day. I've never known a culture that cheats so much when it comes to their study/exams... Although, the Chinese living outside of China, tend to understand that such carryon won't help them.

Wibbs

Dyr wrote: »

Which is why the Japanese and Chinese score so highly..their big western type minds

Well as I said the Chinese taking tests part of their culture runs very deep and the Japanese have become far more western in many aspects of culture in the last century.

IQ makes people very uncomfortable and tends to start all sort of conjecture and dissembling, like "what is intelligence anyway?"

Fun stuff.

I am certainly not discomforted by the notion that there are modern populations that are more likely to have higher intelligence than others. There are genetic trends towards all sorts of differences in humans and that hardly stops from the neck upwards. Though we would like to think it does. If local selection pressures don't select for a particular type of brain power(and there are different types) then you will find fewer in that population who will have those particular traits. This is evolution 101 in many ways. However in the mainstream Indo European, Asian and African populations* it would be my strong belief that the differences are far more to do with culture and things like access to education, nutrition, medicine in childhood and basic economics. Take a trait like height in a population. The Dutch are one of the tallest people on the planet. A hundred years ago they weren't. The same "race"/population. We can see this in the East Asian diasporas in an even shorter timeframe, where second and third generation Asian Americans are taller than the first.





*there will be overlap on the edges of these populations of course. And just saying "indo European" encompasses Europe, the ME and South Asian populations.

Cordell

Does it really matter? Since we have tight immigration control and conditions we're only getting the best and brightest, all these doctors and engineers have higher IQs than the median here. Right?

RobbieTheRobber

Cordell wrote: »

Does it really matter? Since we have tight immigration control and conditions we're only getting the best and brightest, all these doctors and engineers have higher IQs than the median here. Right?

The Irish state does not test the IQ of immigrants. We do know on average "Migrant groups have higher levels of education..... than people born in Ireland"

https://www.esri.ie/news/migrant-groups-have-higher-levels-of-education-but-some-experience-higher-unemployment-than

Cordell

We do know on average "Migrant groups have higher levels of education

That should be a given. The problem is why do we have migrants that are below average? Of course some of them will be from the EU, but a lot of them won't.

Annasopra

JupiterKid wrote: »

I actually don't agree with the central, highly controversial thesis of The Bell Curve (I read it about 15 years ago) but I do think that there is much in the book that merits further examination, particularly how cultural factors can produce very different educational outcomes.

Integration and control on the numbers is the key to successful immigration - otherwise, a flood of immigrants just puts immense pressure on already overburdened and utterly dysfunctional housing systems, schools, social services, health services, amenities etc. It's just common sense.

Immigration also drives down wages in local labour markets and the increased competition for jobs and opportunities tends to piss off the native population and foster resentment, racism and xenophobia.

But the neoliberal economic agenda much of the West has been ascribing to in recent decades sees unfettered immigration as a good thing because it keeps wages down and weakens the power of labour unions. To hell with the social consequences - it's all about the economy and profits for proponents of mass immigration.

It's very convenient for the cheerleaders of neoliberalism that the public discourse in Western Europe and elsewhere has framed those concerned with unchecked immigration as "racists and xenophobes" - the old divide and conquer tactic very much at play. Pitting one against the other in a "black and white" ideological battle whern the reality is far more complex and nuanced.

But then, complex and nuanced issues don't sell tabloid newspapers, act as media clickbait or get opinionated commentators on TV debates because it's just so much easier to frame the issue in an "us and them" scenario.

Its kind of funny how you complain about the framing of arguments into an us and them situation when this is exactly what you are doing with all the scaremongering rhetoric/language that seeks to paint migrants as something to be feared of.

RobbieTheRobber

Cordell wrote: »

That should be a given. The problem is why do we have migrants that are below average? Of course some of them will be from the EU, but a lot of them won't.

Education attainment is not directly related to desirable skills required.
For example many of the building trades traditionally would not be associated with a higher level of educational attainment. However only an idiot would try to claim that their skills are not required at present in Ireland.

Wibbs

Wibbs wrote: »

Well as I said the Chinese taking tests part of their culture runs very deep and the Japanese have become far more western in many aspects of culture in the last century..

Asian education tends to follow that of Western educational systems/standards. The best schools and universities are considered to be in the West, and all of the Asian universities mimic the organisation of western universities. Perception is key here. While Asian education does retain a very Asian feel, their focus is to copy the success of Western education.

Most Asians who want to work professionally, will have done IELTS, along with preparation for the SATs, and GRE. The fact that English is compulsory learning throughout secondary school, and usually the first year of University, shows just how much they've been influenced by western thought.

I would say that Asians think (logic patterns) differently to westerners due to culture and conditioning, but I'd also say you're correct about being influenced into doing well at Western exams and tests.

Dyr

RobbieTheRobber wrote: »

The Irish state does not test the IQ of immigrants. We do know on average "Migrant groups have higher levels of education..... than people born in Ireland"

https://www.esri.ie/news/migrant-groups-have-higher-levels-of-education-but-some-experience-higher-unemployment-than

Did you just equate education with intelligence?

That's racist and stuff.

Dyr

Deleted User wrote: »

Asian education tends to follow that of Western educational systems/standards. The best schools and universities are considered to be in the West, and all of the Asian universities mimic the organisation of western universities. Perception is key here. While Asian education does retain a very Asian feel, their focus is to copy the success of Western education.

Most Asians who want to work professionally, will have done IELTS, along with preparation for the SATs, and GRE. The fact that English is compulsory learning throughout secondary school, and usually the first year of University, shows just how much they've been influenced by western thought.

I would say that Asians think (logic patterns) differently to westerners due to culture and conditioning, but I'd also say you're correct about being influenced into doing well at Western exams and tests.

My experience of some Asian cultures is that close attention and observation play a far bigger part in learning that in the West, we tend to rely on pointing everything thing out to the student.

Fandymo

RobbieTheRobber wrote: »

Easily probable haha. What's it like to live in constant fear fandy?

It doesn't happen in Poland except the no go areas for LGBT people right?

https://www.bbc.com/news/stories-54191344

No!

IF a large number of people from a specific foreign culture (Muslim)
IF move to another country (Belgium)
IF and don't integrate
THEN they are going to create ghettos (Moulenbeek)
THEN subcultures that clash with the nation's culture. (Bataclan suspect able to walk around freely despite being on every news channel in Europe)

You don’t want to talk anymore Robbie?? I’ve given real world, actual, factual events. It’s almost as if someone proves you wrong, then you run away until the subject changes then you come back in and pretend nothing happened.

Is the above a “giant fallacy” as you stated previously??

kildare lad

RobbieTheRobber wrote: »

The Irish state does not test the IQ of immigrants. We do know on average "Migrant groups have higher levels of education..... than people born in Ireland"

https://www.esri.ie/news/migrant-groups-have-higher-levels-of-education-but-some-experience-higher-unemployment-than

I love the way you just posted one line from the report . Just group all migrants in as being better than Irish people. According to you we've no culture and we're dumber than migrants . You still never answered my question btw since Ireland has no culture , can you give us some examples of the great cultures , Africans , Asians and Eastern European s have brought to Ireland . Here's a few things you left out in your post


Within broad regional groups (like Europe, Asia, Africa), we find wide differences between migrants. Among Asian migrants, those from Taiwan, South Korea, and India are the most likely to hold a third level degree, while those from Afghanistan, Thailand, and Vietnam are the least likely to hold a degree.

Especially in Africa, many first-generation migrant groups have higher unemployment rates than respondents born in Ireland. This difference between African-born and Irish-born is linked to the fact those of Black ethnicity have a higher unemployment rate than those of White ethnicity, but the disadvantage for those born in many African countries remains even within ethnic groups

Migrants born in EU countries have lower rates of unemployment than other migrants. However, among those who are working, EU migrants are less likely to work in high-skilled jobs.

As expected, migrants with higher educational qualifications and better English language skills are less likely to be unemployed and more likely to be working in professional or managerial jobs.




So much for a previous poster saying he's ok with taking in unskilled migrants

A third level education doesn't mean your smart going by some of the idiots I've seen coming out of colleges recently . Could the lower level of third level education among Irish men be the fact that a lot of Irish people go and get trades and work on building sites . Only one of my friends went to college out of a gang of us and they're all doing fine . My friends jobs are , fireman , 2 small builders, carpenter, air conditioning and bricklayer, another owns his own garage, 4 left school at 15 and have their own house and business. Not bad for dumb Irish who never went to college.

Btw I know a couple of eastern Europeans that have their own business's aswell , none went to college either . It's amazing what can happen to your life if you're willing to work hard

RobbieTheRobber

Dyr wrote: »

Did you just equate education with intelligence?

That's racist and stuff.

Nope the idea is laughable. I myself did not complete 3rd level education until well advanced in my career. Some of the most motivated energetic individuals I have known and worked with recently are reskilled as a result of the crash in 2008.

I would advise you however to get a dictionary out and check out what racist means, because judging by your post you do not know.

Fandymo wrote: »

No!

IF a large number of people from a specific foreign culture (Muslim)
IF move to another country (Belgium)
IF and don't integrate
THEN they are going to create ghettos (Moulenbeek)
THEN subcultures that clash with the nation's culture. (Bataclan suspect able to walk around freely despite being on every news channel in Europe)

You don’t want to talk anymore Robbie?? I’ve given real world, actual, factual events. It’s almost as if someone proves you wrong, then you run away until the subject changes then you come back in and pretend nothing happened.

Is the above a “giant fallacy” as you stated previously??

You are very angry in this post and a single event that you have shoehorned into your theory is not proof of anything.

kildare lad wrote: »

I love the way you just posted one line from the report . Just group all migrants in as being better than Irish people. According to you we've no culture and we're dumber than migrants . You still never answered my question btw since Ireland has no culture , can you give us some examples of the great cultures , Africans , Asians and Eastern European s have brought to Ireland . Here's a few things you left out in your post


Within broad regional groups (like Europe, Asia, Africa), we find wide differences between migrants. Among Asian migrants, those from Taiwan, South Korea, and India are the most likely to hold a third level degree, while those from Afghanistan, Thailand, and Vietnam are the least likely to hold a degree.

Especially in Africa, many first-generation migrant groups have higher unemployment rates than respondents born in Ireland. This difference between African-born and Irish-born is linked to the fact those of Black ethnicity have a higher unemployment rate than those of White ethnicity, but the disadvantage for those born in many African countries remains even within ethnic groups

Migrants born in EU countries have lower rates of unemployment than other migrants. However, among those who are working, EU migrants are less likely to work in high-skilled jobs.

As expected, migrants with higher educational qualifications and better English language skills are less likely to be unemployed and more likely to be working in professional or managerial jobs.




So much for a previous poster saying he's ok with taking in unskilled migrants

A third level education doesn't mean your smart going by some of the idiots I've seen coming out of colleges recently . Could the lower level of third level education among Irish men be the fact that a lot of Irish people go and get trades and work on building sites . Only one of my friends went to college out of a gang of us and they're all doing fine . My friends jobs are , fireman , 2 small builders, carpenter, air conditioning and bricklayer, another owns his own garage, 4 left school at 15 and have their own house and business. Not bad for dumb Irish who never went to college.

Btw I know a couple of eastern Europeans that have their own business's as well , none went to college either . It's amazing what can happen to your life if you're willing to work hard

I quoted one line because it was relevant. Averages are a useless metric for any real world use. But then talking about immigrants as one whole homogenous group is also stupid.

But this is boards where if I quote a whole article who will read it and who will care. This isn't the first time this particular study has been raised on this thread.

Then you get into a straw man argument trying to say I called people who don't have 3rd level education stupid.

I didn't say that and never have in the 15 years I have posted on boards.
Well done you for having a fight with yourself.:rolleyes:

kildare lad

RobbieTheRobber wrote: »

Nope the idea is laughable. I myself did not complete 3rd level education until well advanced in my career. Some of the most motivated energetic individuals I have known and worked with recently are reskilled as a result of the crash in 2008.

I would advise you however to get a dictionary out and check out what racist means, because judging by your post you do not know.






You are very angry in this post and a single event that you have shoehorned into your theory is not proof of anything.





I quoted one line because it was relevant. Averages are a useless metric for any real world use. But then talking about immigrants as one whole homogenous group is also stupid.

But this is boards where if I quote a whole article who will read it and who will care. This isn't the first time this particular study has been raised on this thread.

Then you get into a straw man argument trying to say I called people who don't have 3rd level education stupid.

I didn't say that and never have in the 15 years I have posted on boards.
Well done you for having a fight with yourself.:rolleyes:

You posted barely one line from a report , trying to make out migrants were better educated than Irish . You don't like going into the small fine print . Anyway I'm still waiting on your answer about all the examples of great cultures migrants have brought to Ireland ?

Dyr

Dyr wrote: »

My experience of some Asian cultures is that close attention and observation play a far bigger part in learning that in the West, we tend to rely on pointing everything thing out to the student.

It's the same in Asia, but the primary difference is that questions are encouraged in western society, whereas in most Asian cultures (not all), young people are told to be quiet.

Being shy is actively encouraged, which extends into the classroom (and beyond), although there is a greater emphasis on group coordination than in the West. So, you find that in any classroom there's one or two active students with the rest being terribly quiet. Leaders are chosen early, and those are the ones who are active, with the rest being supportive. Students do well studying alone, away from the teachers, but you won't find much in the way of classroom participation/engagement.

Frankie Machine

correct horse battery staple wrote: »

https://i.redd.it/50oh22v0p9971.jpg

Perhaps if we were more multicultural we be in euros semi finals now

Don't be greedy.

Participating in the qualifiers of a foreign game ought to be multicultural enough for any genuine Irish man.

But here we are again with the stupid superficial appeal of multikulti - better food, better music, better-looking women, and now - we could be better at their sports.

mikethecop

RobbieTheRobber wrote: »

The Irish state does not test the IQ of immigrants. We do know on average "Migrant groups have higher levels of education..... than people born in Ireland"

https://www.esri.ie/news/migrant-groups-have-higher-levels-of-education-but-some-experience-higher-unemployment-than

IQ test ? lol

AFAIK we arent even allowed to finger print or photograph them to prevent frauds in the process