What are your views on Multiculturalism in Ireland? - Threadbanned User List in OP

Fandymo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117804140#Comment_117804140

Thread is "What are your views on Multiculturalism in Ireland?" as you helpfully pointed out yesterday, not what are the positives of Irish society, so why would you expect a response to that question in here??

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117803516#Comment_117803516

"a huge difference between wanting something and being willing to do anything to enact it."

- Does that qualification also apply to the people wanting immigration controls to be enforced?

Re the "positives" - I think that's great. I acknowledge that although the positive one about belonging in Britain is a little bit abstract and doesn't necessarily mean anything in real life.

Do you care to address any of the negatives in that article?

"Speaking on BBC Radio 4’s Today programme, he said: “On specific issues – families, sexuality, gender, attitudes towards Jews and on questions of violence and terrorism – the centre of gravity of British Muslim opinion is some distance away from the centre of gravity of everyone else’s opinion.

“One in six Muslims say they would like to live more separately, a quarter would like to live under sharia law. It means that as a society we have a group of people who basically do not want to participate in the way that other people [do].

“What we also found is that there is a correspondence between this desire to live separately and sympathy for terrorism"

RobbieTheRobber

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117804784#Comment_117804784

All 1.8billion Muslims harbour hostility and look down on you?

Read that line you wrote back to yourself. It is ridiculous.

I mean come on man. Most people regardless of religion are too focused on their own lives to give much consideration to their neighbours let alone some stranger in a country they have never met nor even set eyes on.

You are not that important wojtek. Get over yourself and your assumed importance and superiority of other humans based on nothing more than the religion they were born into.

Wibbs

Haven't been back here in a while and I see that exoticism and charity are still being trotted out as the mainstays of the benefits of multiculturalism. That's not to say there aren't some positives within those, but they tend to be surface and are also a decidely naive happy clappy regurgitated with little enough thought suburban middle class view of the subject. A demographic that also tends to be insulated from the negatives of the same politic and as the generations march on they become more and more insulated. They're also the ideal, an ideal that doesn't tend to translate so well to the realities on the ground and is also dependent on the type of multiculturalism and cultural baggage of both the migrating and the local populations we're talking about. And it seems it doesn't resolve so well with time either.

Again, can anybody show me a multicultural European nation where those with darker skin aren't over represented in poverty, lower education, lower work prospects and social issues? And yep racism is indeed a huge part of that, but that seems to be intractable too. That the BLM movement in the US touched a nerve in other multicultural nations shows it was needed as a substantial enough part of those societies still need to be heard and I'll lay bets that when another generation has passed it still be needed. Ireland has been multicultural for barely a generation and we're already seeing the divisiveness of this politic. But hey we can get [insert currently exotic fash food] in Tesco.

Never mind that the exoticism of multiculturalism doesn't require the mass movements of people. How many Americans live in Ireland? And yet Irish people throng to McDonalds wearing jeans to have a big mac and fries after going to the store with their moms.

Klaz: All of the things you mention, could be (and were acquired/accessed) without the numbers of immigrants encouraged under the agenda of multiculturalism.

Indeed. Never mind that if actual intergration happens where is your exoticism then?

John Doe1: -Anyway, Surely we can get all these supposed great benefits but still only allow immigration from within the EU? (where there is quite a lot of unemployment)

A good question, but it seems that's not nearly exotic enough to be truly multicultural. There are more Hungarian folks living here than Nigerians. Double the number of Spaniards, French, Germans, six times the number of Lithuanians and so forth. The vast majority of the non native Irish population living here are White Europeans, but they seem to be invisible to the multicultural politic and it's flag wavers. Look at the plethora of NGO's and talking heads that have sprung up around this same politic in Ireland. About the only pale faced Europeans you see are those Irish people running these organisations. Again it's the fetish of the exotic, something that's been present in the European mind for a long time.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117804816#Comment_117804816

Not all of them, no. In fact I have several muslim friends believe it or not. And a couple of others who are work colleagues. But the ones I associate with are the ones I'm referring to. They don't live in insular communities. They are independent minded and tolerant.

So it's not "all" as in 100%. The ones I am referring to are the ones who essentially live in parallel societies in the West. They spead Arabic, pray in Arabic, eat food, work and socialise in a manner no different from someone in Baghdad or Beirut. Places in the UK like Bradford, Leicester, Oldham etc contain these communities.

RobbieTheRobber

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117804807#Comment_117804807

I answered this the last time this question was brought up.

This thread is comparing other people's from other societies/cultures to Irish society/culture and seeking to find the positives/negatived of multiculturalism so it would only be fair to enumerate the Irish society positives in order to fairly make that comparison. Otherwise what is it we are comparing multicultural society to?

Fandymo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117804774#Comment_117804774

The deflection is pathetic. You literally quoted a post that was replying to Wojtek talking about attacks in Europe while going on about 1.8bn muslims. There was zero mention of the taliban in the thread of conversation you replied to. Absolutely dishonest post above again.

RobbieTheRobber

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117804818#Comment_117804818

European multiculturalism is part of multicultural Irish society. Show me a post apart from yours in this thread who says it is not?

In fact I know both me and another poster bubblypop have many times talked about European multiculturalism in Ireland in this thread as a positive to Irish society.

RobbieTheRobber

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117804833#Comment_117804833

So all the places you listed are not Ireland. So you are happy with muslims in multicultural Ireland then I take it?

Wibbs

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117804656#Comment_117804656

Unless some are living in the 1960's who the hell eats boiled cabbage and bacon anymore? 😁

Anyway, on the cuisine front and our exotic cuisine saviours from afar, how healthy are their diets? As the report you linked to noted even Mediterraneans don't eat the Mediterranean diet these days and childhood obesity in Spanish kids is one of the highest in the EU. Some Asian food can be healthy, but chicken balls and rice doesn't exactly cut it and as the same report noted as nations and peoples become richer their diet tends to go to crap. In the UK the demographic with the highest obesity levels are from an African background. Never mind that the trend seems to be when the West does import food items into the "native" cuisine they tend to favour the more unhealthy items in the non native cuisine. So the Irish magically getting a better diet because of the movements of large numbers of people doesn't seem to have legs.

Fandymo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117804861#Comment_117804861

All that healthy ethnic cuisine.

"A survey on weight by Eurostat, the EU's statistics agency, found that 26 per cent of Irish adults were obese in 2019, well ahead of the EU average of 16 per cent and trailing only Malta, where the rate was 28 per cent. In a similar 2014 survey, Ireland was ranked seventh, with an obesity rate of 18 per cent."

Wibbs

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117804845#Comment_117804845

Avoid the points like the plague. Well I see some things remain the same.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117804848#Comment_117804848

I wish you would address my question on the negatives highlighted in the article.

However I will hold myself to a different standard than you, and I will answer your specific question directly: I am happy with muslims in multicultural Ireland - for now. If the status quo is maintained, then I'm happy. However, it doesn't take Nostradamus to look at the experiences of other Western European countries to see the problems that can come down the track if muslim integration is not done in a controlled way. So for now I'm happy but I am concerned about the future. I just hope we don't repeat the mistakes our neighbours in Europe have made. I mean if Sweden can't do it, I worry about what makes us think we can do better.

RobbieTheRobber

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117804861#Comment_117804861

You arguing with wrong person there Wibb's I never made the claim we are getting a healthier diet from multiculturalism. The poster I responded to claimed that healthier diet was a positive of Irish society.

Seeing as you phrased the original question about positives for multiculturalism. Perhaps you can give us a positive for Irish society with all your own caveats in place?

RobbieTheRobber

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117804878#Comment_117804878

What points. I'm not arguing with you that modern diets are unhealthy. I provided a link to a TCD study that states that exact point. It even goes on to point out how the much vaunted Mediterranean diet is no longer that hailed Mediterranean diet any longer.

Now any positives for Irish society you can list?

Can you link to any comment from a poster wanting to exclude European immigration as being part of multiculturalism in Ireland as you claimed?

"Multiculturalism" is just a by word for Americanised Neo liberalism. Or at least that is the aim, turn every country into the same deracinated consumer culture. Europe is already multicultural - probably the most multi cultural area of its size on earth. There are 100 languages, or so, numerous cuisines, and vast local and regional differences.

Its doesn't really need much else, and in fact the real result of mass immigration is to spread conformity. Ireland is to the forefront here because it doesn't really have a culture to preserve. To an Irishman a Chinese curry is an exotic thing better than the old cuisine, to a France man its worse than his own cuisine although he may indulge occasionally. Immigrant restaurants in France tend to indulge in fusion.

Wibbs

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117804898#Comment_117804898

You're avoiding my point again. Ahh the comfort of the expected. I didn't say European immigration was excluded. I did say it's interesting and pretty clear that when multiculturalism is discussed as a policy and positive it's strange that the more exotic the minority the more attention it gets and by some measure with it. That is quite simply undeniable. For the craic lets look at the Immigrant Council of Ireland There are three rolling pics on the home page. The Afghan crisis for obvious reasons, but of the other two, let's play spot the pale faced European migrants. Those who make up the vast majority of non Irish natives living here.

Earlier in the thread we had the governments campaign for support in early childhood and to go by the pics Ireland is apparently almost entirely made up of couplings of White women with Black men, with a couple of Lesbian couples for "balance". Asians, White couples, White blokes and Black blokesses remarkably absent in this wonderful tapestry. Then again one could argue that's a wider Western racism of expectation. Of biracial couples in advertising for example Black women with White men are a small minority in the mix. It's almost always the other way around. That's apparently more "acceptable" to advertisers and their audience, which begs a few questions...

Wibbs

fvp4 "Multiculturalism" is just a by word for Americanised Neo liberalism. Or at least that is the aim, turn every country into the same deracinated consumer culture. Europe is already multicultural - probably the most multi cultural area of its size on earth. There are 100 languages, or so, numerous cuisines, and vast local and regional differences.

Well much of it is Americanised alright, and much of it stemming from that culture's woeful treatment of non Whites. The "melting pot" is as much of an illusion as the "American Dream" and it's trotted out as a fop to the disenfranchised, but they're not buying it anymore. If they ever did.

Secondly and part and parcel of that "multiculturalism" is Europe can't be multicultural no matter how internally diverse it may be, because it's majority White people. This politic is mostly concerned with "improving" ostensibly White, "Christian" European nations by the addition of as much of the opposite and exotic as possible. You will note as I have in the past that the same "multiculturalism" flagwavers would not be nearly so quick to rock up to Ethiopia, or Nigeria, or Burma, or Arabia and suggest what those nations need to improve their lot is a lot more White Europeans and their culture. That's a tad too uncomfortable a thought going the other direction. If anything any problems found in those nations and all nations and cultures have problems, a few would have blame laid at the feet of the same White Europeans.

flazio

I'd be curious to know what percentage of employees in our public hospitals, at any level, are Muslim? If every Muslim working in our health system left tomorrow, would it have much impact on the staff that's left?

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117805004#Comment_117805004

Ah yes, the same airheads who think the film 'Black Panther' is a triumph for Diversity.

It seems clear to anyone with half a brain that 'Diversity' is a trojan horse. If black areas in the US have white people moving into them, they are gentrifiers, cultural appropriators. They are never celebrated for bring 'diversity' or 'vibrancy' into an area.

RobbieTheRobber

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117804956#Comment_117804956

I had a nice short post and I asked two questions of you and you avoided both. And then you preface your post by saying I avoided your point. 😱😀😅😂

Any chance you could show me your not avoiding my questions and answer them.

Do you need me to post my direct questions to you again?

Fandymo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117805056#Comment_117805056

Why the curiosity? It's been said multiple times on this thread that skilled workers and people here to work and earn their way are more than welcome. It's the scroungers and spongers that are not wanted. Is this really not getting through to people.

Or, the more likely scenario, are people just ignoring this to point score and make inane comments like above??

RobbieTheRobber

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117805063#Comment_117805063

No other poster than you has mentioned black panther in this thread. That's a casebook strawman right there ⬆️

You don't like it when I talk globally about Muslims but you making unsubstantiated points about USA neighbourhoods in relation to Irish multiculturalism is ok.

🤪🌎️🤣

Wibbs

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117805064#Comment_117805064

I directly answered your question on the White migrant population. I didn't say European immigration was excluded. I did say it's interesting and pretty clear that when multiculturalism is discussed as a policy and positive it's strange that the more exotic the minority the more attention it gets and by some measure with it. etc...

But as usual you will reframe any purported question you put so it becomes meaningless and unanswerable and avoidable by you.

As for your other question: Perhaps you can give us a positive for Irish society with all your own caveats in place? Nebulous as usual. What are you talking about here? Positives of multiculturalism for Irish society? Positives of Irish society itself? Though I'm refreshed you may consider some exist, or that Irish society itself exists. Oh BTW if you're hoping to score some point or other about difficulty nailing down the positives of Irish society, you would actually my reinforcing my points about the difficulty of nailing down the positives of multiculturalism. So this should be fun...

Happydays2020

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117804795#Comment_117804795

Health service - doctors and nurses from far and wide who in hospitals up and down the country look after the sick.

Multi- nationals and tax revenues - availability of people with different languages and talent not available in Ireland attract in investment which funds public services and grows our economy.

Food - migrant workers are essential to our food industry. Puts food on our tables and exports from country across the world.

Overall the ‘new’ Irish add value to the country and far more value than many ‘old’ Irish who have a sense of entitlement to public services.

RobbieTheRobber

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117805271#Comment_117805271

As usual you will reframe any purported question you put so it becomes meaningless and unanswerable and avoidable by you.

But I take it that's a big no from you that you cant list any positives for Irish society. Thanks Wibbs

RobbieTheRobber

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117805272#Comment_117805272

Exactly Happydays look at Britain to see what happens when you go full racist and blame everything on the foreigners!

enricoh

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117805272#Comment_117805272

I keep hearing about the hard working immigrants and deco and Tasha the sponger. However immigrants are twice as likely to require the government to pay the rent. Maybe the newer ones will be less of a drain, eh?

https://m.independent.ie/opinion/columnists/david-quinn/huge-scale-of-immigration-is-making-our-housing-crisis-worse-35498057.html

Last year, I decided to ask the Department of Social Protection what percentage of rent supplement was paid out to non-Irish EU nationals, and non-EU nationals.

As at February of last year, the figure was 35pc. This is a remarkable total. Remember, 17pc of the population is "foreign-born", so immigrants are over-represented in the figures by two to one.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117805272#Comment_117805272

Those are all great examples of LEGAL Immigration. Nobody has a problem with skilled, hardworking, taxpaying immigrants. They add a lot to the country.

What I have a problem with are the undocumented, illegal migrants who have no skills, no English and no desire to integrate.

flazio

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117805118#Comment_117805118

Fair enough, but skilled workers don't come alone. Case in point that tragic kurdish family killed last week. The father was a skilled worker but nothing was said about what his wife did, except raise their young child. Ireland is a western society that seems to expect both adults to work full time and pays salaries to that extent.

If the partner of a foreign worker is unskilled should they be allowed to live with the skilled worker? If the income of the skilled worker can't support the family by itself should they receive social benefits or be deported?