What are your views on Multiculturalism in Ireland? - Threadbanned User List in OP

Fandymo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117894964#Comment_117894964

A private club is completely different to a public street in a public town.

Tell me how

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117895485#Comment_117895485

Just to comment on this directly.

Boards may have changed significantly, but there still is a report function there. As well as the ignore function. Not to mention that no one is going to go to anyone's house and beat them around the head for not responding to a post or for not getting involved or staying in a discussion.

This is a discussion forum on which topical and emotive items are discussed. This wailing and gnashing of teeth at the the supposed 'bad faith' arguments is thrown out frequently when anyone has the nerve to consistently go against a particular narrative.

I consistently am referred to in a specific way, or have it suggested that I am adopting a position for a particular reason etc etc. I don't give a fraction of the tiniest f*ck about that. There are posters I just scroll buy when I see them post, I don't feel the need to announce that I am ignoring them or that I am going to run away because they are challenging me.

If people are engaging in bad faith, everyone else will see it and the discussion will drift away like smoke in the wind as people just leave them to ramble on, but this tactic of trying to admonish people in to stopping challenging you is tiresome. What has been going on here is like 'he who must not be named' talking about how he has been consistent all along, knows more than everyone else, his position is clear, and anyone who doesn't buy in to that is 'Fake News' or has an agenda.

WrenBoy

Thats a pity Klaz. In my opinion you certainly added value to the site and I enjoyed your inputs on different topics over the years, even when I disagreed with you it was always a pleasant exchange. All the best going forward and hopefully we will hear from you again soon.

jmreire

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117895151#Comment_117895151

But thats the whole point Bubblypop..Muslims do not care about Irish Legislation or laws except when it suits them.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117895730#Comment_117895730

My point also Jim!

Many people don't care about Irish laws, that's Why we have prisons full of offenders and courts backed up for years.

One eyed Jack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117895730#Comment_117895730

That’s true of anyone though jm, people generally don’t care about Irish legislation or laws except when it suits them. You’re focusing on Muslims at the expense of, and don’t get me wrong because not for a minute do I think it’s intentional, but in making your point you’re overlooking the fact that the vast majority of people who commit offences in this jurisdiction, are Irish and quite likely to profess their faith in a deity which hasn’t enjoyed a special position in our Constitution since some time in the mid-70’s following a referendum on the issue.

And that’s an important point when you’re making the point that Islam isn’t just a religion, that’s true, there’s also Sharia Law which is the equivalent of Canon Law as it would apply to the vast majority of Irish people who claim to be of the Catholic persuasion. While it’s true that Sharia law is dominant in predominately Islamic countries, it doesn’t influence Common or Civil Law in Western democratic societies.

Like I understood what you meant when you said democracy kills democracy, but really it doesn’t. In Ireland and most of Europe, there is Representative Democracy, and given that much, it’s incredibly unlikely that even if there were to be a mass immigration of immigrants from predominantly Islamic society, they would still be beholden to representative democracy as is everyone else, as opposed to imagining they could ever impose their theocratic ideals on a democratic society. It’s actually rather useful for all concerned that we live in a democratic society, because that’s exactly what prevents a theocratic society from becoming a reality.

Ali Selim calling for greater representation of Islam in Irish society? He has a point. Ali Selim overheard talking about jihad? I’ll pretend I didn’t hear that 😂

newhouse87

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117895723#Comment_117895723

Exactly it, he doesn't get angry or insulting in his replies unlike some on this thread, who resemble teenage keyboard warriors.

Shout out to the Gardai with another major arrest today. They are doing a fantastic job the last few years with limited resources and complete indifference from the government amid rising islamist activity in the country.

"Gardai arrest Islamic terror suspect hiding in plain sight in Ireland for decades

EXCLUSIVE: The Algerian national was hiding here from European police forces for over 22 years"

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117896135#Comment_117896135

Yep the gardai are doing a great job

One eyed Jack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117896135#Comment_117896135

Hiding in plain sight for decades? He must have been pretty good at hide and Sikh… 😬

jmreire

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117895830#Comment_117895830

I dont know anything and did not say anything about Ali Selim mentioning Jihad. But in an earlier post, I did mention two Syrian friends who arrived in Germany and like other refugees, were placed in Gymnasiums, with make shift plastic cubicles which only gave a little privacy, but what was spoken was clearly heard in the adjoining cubicles. And what was being spoken about was, Jihad, Jihad and more Jihad. To such an extent that both of my friends were frghtened for their lives, and pretended not to speak Arabic. And they were in two different buildings, but had the same experiences. Maybe you are confusing that with my post re Ali Selim?

For practising Muslim, there is only one Law...taken from the Quran, and thats Sharia. In an Islamic Country, its the Law of the Land. and not just a religious directive like Canon Law is. In other non-Islamic Countrys, but where there are sizable nrs of Muslims, they will use Sharia Law as much as possible. They will do their business in the local Mosque. The law of the land will be obeyed of course where its unavoidable,,, traffic offences etc. or in other ways where they have broken it or for other reasons. But as I said, Sharia wil be their main source of legal problem solving. In Germany, they have managed to merge Sharia with local German Laws, where both laws are in agreement ( google it) Basically the Germans are prepared to allow Muslims to solve their own legal problems as long as it does not contravene the Law of the Land.,

Canon Law, was and is a Religious Law and is not applicable to or used in Irish Constitutional law. Sharia on the other, IS the Law of the Land. Every judgement handed down in Islamic Countrys is based on Sharia. For sure though, if any Irish ( or other country) Cleric were to make the same request as Ali Selim made here in Ireland, in an Islamic Country...he / she ( and especially "She") better have their bags packed.. And as this forum is broadly on the subjest of Multiculture, thats why I'm talking about Islamic Law, I'm not neglecting Irish Law, or the Irish who break it so very often.

But what about it Jim?

We have laws in this country and no matter who you are or what your religion is, you are subject to the law.

If you're worried about certain communities looking after themselves, this happens a lot and not just with Sharia law. Not everyone respects police, nor do they go to them with complaints or issues. I would hope that as the police here become more diverse, that issue will lessen.

Notwithstanding, all peoples are subject to the laws of the land. I wouldn't be excusing them.

jmreire

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117895756#Comment_117895756

I agree 100% with you on the issue of th Irish Courts being clogged up, with long waiting times, but if you want to see REAL court blockages, Pakistan is your only man!!! Since Zia Al-Haq made the Blasphemy Laws, complete with the death sentence for anyone found guilty, its really done a job on Court times. Most of those charged with Blasphemy are Christians, where people want them to be jailed, so they can take their land. The only Christian Minister in the Government, who was fighting to repeal the blasphemy laws, was killed by his bodyguard. And almost to a man, the Pakistan Bar Council offered their services to defend the killer. But he was found gulity and executed...bodyguards killing Ministers was not something to be encouraged. As my Pakistani friends say " To start a court case here, means leaving something for your grandchildren to finish" And its all too true. Asia Bibi being a prominent case..accused of and found guilty Blasphemy in 2009, she spent 8 years on death row, in chains, until the verdict was overturned in 2018. The verdict provoked mass protests, with hundreds of thousands of protesters blocking the roads, and threatening riots. The Govt had to say that she would not be released,to get them to disperse, and later on they isolated the protest leaders and arrested them.

So, while we are not great time wise in the court system here, neither are we the worst.

No, we are definitely not the worst!

Luckily I don't see us becoming like Pakistan anytime soon 😊

One eyed Jack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117897590#Comment_117897590

Ahh no, I wasn’t confusing your post with the other post which mentioned Ali Selim calling for accommodation of children with Islamic beliefs in the Irish education system. While I don’t see him as any sort of a spokesperson for Islam in Ireland, he does on this occasion have a point. If he started calling for jihad, THEN I might raise an eyebrow, but the influence of Islam in Irish society just isn’t even remotely strong enough to suggest any cause for concern when over 90% of Irish schools are under the patronage of religious orders and people don’t appear all that keen to be rid of their influence or to allow Islam to gain any sort of a foothold in Irish education.

I’m aware that Governments in Germany, the UK and France allow Muslims to have their own Sharia courts and all the rest of it, but as you point out yourself - they don’t overrule civil or criminal law in those countries, any more than Canon Law has any influence in Ireland. Sharia Law is not the law of the land in any country in Europe. It’s the law of the land in predominantly Islamic countries, and I wouldn’t expect that in those countries our legal systems should have any legal weight, any more than Sharia Law has any legal weight in Europe.

It’s not inconceivable that Judges will make judgements which appear on the face of it to be in accordance with Sharia Law, but that’s obviously not the same idea as suggesting that Sharia Law is influencing Civil or Criminal Law in any European countries, which is what I thought you were suggesting COULD happen in Europe.

I’m suggesting that it couldn’t, and wouldn’t happen, precisely because we live in a democratic society where there just aren’t enough immigrants who are in favour of introducing Sharia Law in Western society, let alone are there enough of those people who are sympathetic to immigrants who would support the introduction of Sharia Law in Western democracy, in order for your ‘appalling vista’ to ever become a reality - immigrants on their own just don’t have that kind of political influence, nor does any minority who have spent decades trying to grow the influence of their own ideology in Western society.

jmreire

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117897735#Comment_117897735

Ins'h Allah.................😂

Marcos

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117895598#Comment_117895598

People are very well aware of bad faith arguments on this thread and others, and the reason why some posters engage in them. Usually because they can't argue their point and recognise that they can't persuade others of the correctness of their argument. Then they argue in bad faith deliberately misrepresenting others arguments, or arguing points that were never made, and almost always avoiding answering specific questions put to them. Or engaging in projection, accusing others of doing what they do themselves. If that doesn't work, they can always try taking on the mantle of victimhood. So stunning, so brave.

They are almost cult like in the way they can brook no opposition, and if none of the above works generally react badly, calling people who they disagree with racists, Trump supporters or whatever else their insult du jour is, or the forum a cesspit or something similar.

This wailing and gnashing of teeth at the the supposed 'bad faith' arguments is thrown out frequently when anyone has the nerve to consistently go against a particular narrative.

Or maybe it's because they continually engage in bad faith arguments? Generally I see no wailing and gnashing of teeth, but then if certain posters wish to misrepresent others arguments, then it's easy to misrepresent their bad faith arguments being (politely) called out.

I consistently am referred to in a specific way, or have it suggested that I am adopting a position for a particular reason etc etc. I don't give a fraction of the tiniest f*ck about that.

What's that quote about if someone meets one asshole the chances are they're an a**hole, but if you meet a lot of a**holes, then the chances are that maybe they people he/she/whatever meets are not the a**holes, and a long, hard look in the mirror is advised?

If people are engaging in bad faith, everyone else will see it and the discussion will drift away like smoke in the wind

And this would suit the posters who engage in bad faith arguments as they wish to shut down threads that they disagree with, or goad other posters into either leaving the thread or saying something that would get them banned. Either is a win for them. They don't seek to persuade anyone, they try to shut down discussions they don't like by any means possible.

jmreire

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117897749#Comment_117897749

Not once did I suggest that Sharia law was influencing Local Law in any Country. Sharia Law is strictly a Muslin Law and is used exclusively by and for Muslims. The point I make, is that in any Country with a sizeable Muslim population, you will have a parallel Law, which is not the Law of the host Nation. And it has not been stopped by our Democracy either. I would not be too quick to suggest that Sharia Law will never become the Law in the EU. Islam is presently the fastest growing religion world wide. There are cities in the EU where Sharia Law is in actual fact, the operable law in Muslim majority areas, even if lip service is paid to the Law of the Land.

In a 3 possible migration scenario projection report by Brill, ( Religious Demographics ) they say that in the 1st scenario, with all migration stopped completely, the present level of 4.9% will still rise to 7.4% by 2050. This is because Muslim women are younger, and have a higher birthrate per woman ( even before the multiple wives secnario) , 2nd projection envisages that migration levels continue at the pre Syria "normal" rate will mean an increase of 11.2% by 2050, and in the 3rd projection estimate, Muslims will make up 14% of the European population by 2050. Now you comcentrate that 14% in a few areas, and for sure, you will have Culture clashes. Apart from Christianity, which is more than 2000 years old, Islam is the longest running Religion, running from the 6th centure, without change ( it cannot be changed ) Over the centuries, its Nrs have ebbed and flowed, but its DNA has remained constant. Expand untill the whole world has been converted to Islam, by all means possible, as Mohammad ordered. This process has been and still is ongoing. Its not a "fly by night" latest religious (or other) fad, of which there has been many over the years. On a different note though, the Brill report did mention that its figures were based on previous and current trends, but that there was growing disatisfaction and opposition to migration in EU Countrys, so the over all results might differ from the original assessment.

And as you point out, our Laws carry no weight in Islamic Countrys, that's 100 % true, for the simple reason they would not be tolerated, in any context, never mind as a parallel legal system. In Muslim Countrys, Sharia rules 100%. be you Muslim or Foreigner.

I dont know where are you getting the Ali Selim Jihad comment from...I never mentioned him in a jihad context. But re your "appalling vista " comment, for sure the chopping of of hands and feet, stoning to death for Adultery, throwing off of high buildings for gays etc, is trully appaling.

One eyed Jack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117900608#Comment_117900608

jm I’d ask you to read the first and last points you’ve made in the above post and STILL tell me that you’re not suggesting that Sharia Law will influence local and National laws in any given country, but I have a feeling you’d STILL tell me that’s not what you’re suggesting, even though by the time I got to the end of your post you’d have me believe that Islam is going to convert the world’s population by whatever means possible apparently, using projections that aren’t worth the paper they’re written on.

Even if it were the case that Ireland’s Muslim population which are far more diverse than their European counterparts were to rise from it’s current level of less than 2% of the population to the projected figure for Europe of 15%, it’s still a meaningless figure unless there’s something else added to it that either benefits a society, or should have the other 85% of the population concerned that their children will be next. In any case you keep saying it’s a parallel legal system, but it’s not. A parallel legal system implies that it is a legitimate legal system, but it’s not - they’re still under the rule of law of the country in which they reside, as is everyone else. They can have their Mickey Mouse courts, but they have no legal recognition in Europe.

The reason other religions and none aren’t tolerated in theocratic societies is precisely because they’re a theocracy, unlike Western countries which democracies of one flavour or another. We’re the societies which are saying we’re superior to Islamic societies, so what do we expect only that people from those societies would want to escape those societies and go West? Your argument is somewhat self-contradictory in a few different ways - “We’re superior to them, they treat people like animals, but we should be afraid of anyone coming here to escape being treated like animal and just wants to make a better life for themselves”? It’s kinda like when I try and piece it all together, it’s like you have your arse covered every which way in order to suggest people have anything to fear from people who are absolutely no threat to anyone!

Apart from the two women in some refugee centre in Germany who overheard two men conversing between themselves and every second word was jihad. That’s why I made the joke about Ali Selim, because the strength of your evidence by which you were trying to characterise Muslims in such a way that we should all be afraid, be very afraid, just doesn’t stand up. It’s severely lacking in credibility, and even more so when there’s plenty of evidence of discrimination against Muslims in Ireland who make up less than 2% of the population here, so the idea of them being any kind of a threat or taking over the world? That’s like taking seriously the many threads around these parts which wish all sorts of ill will on other people, if only they had the political power to implement their ideas which would see Ireland become the kind of theocratic society that would make Ali Khameni blush.

For that reason alone, I’m glad I live in a democratic society and not a theocracy - the power going to their heads isn’t just a phenomenon observed in theocratic societies, the difference being in a democratic society those sorts of people are kept in check by the various checks and balances which are part and parcel of a democratic society.

jmreire

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117901162#Comment_117901162

Just one or two question for you Jack, how many years have you lived in Islamic Countrys? Or if not, whats your experience of Islam, especially Sharia Law?

Cordell

You're wasting your time, they will never accept that people leaving those places and people that continue to live there are mostly the same, and that those places are hellholes because of (culture of) the people living in them. Those oil rich countries could be like Norway if only they would have a different culture, and that very same culture will be brought along with the people that leave those countries.

jmreire

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117902542#Comment_117902542

100% right, and in a large part its because they do not understand what Islam actually is or how it works. Thats why I asked Jack where he got his knowledge of Islam / Sharia Law.

One eyed Jack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117901830#Comment_117901830

No experience whatsoever of having lived in Islamic countries jm tbh, and my experience of Islam is limited to the few friends, neighbours, work colleagues and relatives I’d interact with on and off, y’know?

It’s why I wouldn’t judge a population of 2Bn people by the standards of a mere handful, any more than I’d judge all Irish people by the standards of a mere handful. Rory O’ Neill would have anyone believe Ireland is a hotbed of homophobia because someone threw a milk carton thrown at him once.

@Cordell I have no issue whatsoever with believing that the people who are trying to escape these countries and the people who live in these countries are pretty much the same people, and not all that different from people in Ireland who, depending upon your perspective and experience, are a bit of a mixed bag and all.

@jmreire I understand what Islam is, and how it works, and how Sharia Law works and all the rest of it, but given for example in Tehran alone there are over 10,000 prostitutes, I’d imagine they’re not all that different from Berlin with it’s mega-brothels packed to the rafters with immigrants, or the young male immigrants who prostitute themselves in public parks, or the immigrant children who are forced to prostitute themselves on the Czech border with their German neighbours.

@Cordell prostitution is legal in Finland too (the ‘Nordic model’, not the same as the Nordic model in the context of economics), and is primarily propagated by immigrants, so the idea of countries being hellholes of one variety or another is really only dependent upon one’s perspective.

I gather most people in either Western or Islamic countries aren’t driving around in BMWs, that for the most part they really aren’t that well-off, and it’s as though a separate set of rules applies to the super-wealthy? Not all that different at all then, are they?

Cordell

@One eyed Jack yes you are right, "hellholes of one variety or another is really only dependent upon one’s perspective" for some people countries where women are free and gays are not swinging from a crane are hellholes.

One eyed Jack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117902925#Comment_117902925

I know right, for some people a country where you can eat gold-flecked ice cream, is still a hellhole! It’s bizarre really, isn’t it?

https://www.outsidethebeltway.com/the-wealth-gap-in-iran/

Cordell

Yes, exactly my point, they are getting filthy rich and eat gold plated ice cream and all while workers from countries like India are working in slavery. This is their culture.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117902980#Comment_117902980

Whose culture is it?

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117902581#Comment_117902581

I'm sure you're probably one of the only ones on the site that has experience living in a strict Islamic state Jim, and everyone understands your experience there.

However, you seem to be of the belief that somehow the Muslims are going to take over our little island and turn it Islamic.

It's not going to happen.

One eyed Jack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117902980#Comment_117902980

No Cordell it isn’t their culture. What you’re doing is cherry picking examples which suit your narrative, and MY point is that anyone can do that, and present a particular narrative depending upon their perspective which supports their beliefs that they want other people to believe.

That’s why I gave the example of prostitution and pointed out the similarities between both societies - the one in which you claim women are free, and the one in which you try to make out women aren’t free, it’s as though you have a blind spot in relation to the society in which you live, whereas you imagine the shìtty behaviour of other people you witness in other countries you’re willing to ascribe to an ideology that you’re opposed to that doesn’t exist in the West.

It doesn’t have to, in order for me to cherry pick examples of similar behaviour, and that’s why I made the point about if Rory O’ Neill were to be believed as though he’s an authority on Irish society, he’d have anyone believe Ireland is a hotbed of homophobia because someone threw a milk carton at him once. I could go further like you do with your example of gay men hanging from cranes as if that’s actually a regular occurrence in those countries and point to similar occurrences here in Ireland where gay men are the victims of assault and and in rare cases murdered too (and other examples given in the article below) -

https://www.gaytimes.co.uk/life/irish-gay-couple-beaten-and-stabbed-in-brutal-homophobic-attack/

I don’t believe people from Islamic countries are all of a similar mindset any more than I believe people in Western society are of a similar mindset, not only because it would be a ridiculous assumption to make in the first place, but because I could pick anecdotes all day which would support any particular point of view.

I’d hope @jmreire wasn’t asking me the question as though he thought a couple of years spent in Islamic countries makes him an authority on the subject of Islam or Sharia Law, any more than I’d imagine you’re an authority on the subject, or any more than I’d imagine the Islamic equivalent of Rory O’ Neill is an authority on the subject based upon his perspective and experiences.

Cordell

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117903111#Comment_117903111

Theirs 😁