What are your views on Multiculturalism in Ireland? - Threadbanned User List in OP

Fandymo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117922658#Comment_117922658

1. Look up birth rates for Muslim women vs EU women.
2. Why would a Muslim country want to be part of the EU?
3. The EU really stopped UK leaving the EU, they've no choice on who leaves.

Iker

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117922663#Comment_117922663

1. Doesn't make a blind bit of difference for the reasons in 2 and 3. Also, this process not only would take many decades, but it is not irreversible (yes, I know that doesn't help your argument). The trend can go the other way at any point in the future and wait for it... it likely will.
2. Even if this dystopian future came to pass (it won't), and Ireland left the EU to become an Islamic state (I can't believe I'm writing this nonsense already); the country would be bang sandwiched in the middle of the Western world. Ostracised by all its neighbours. Blockaded culturally and financially, and probably would get invaded before any of this gets anywhere near happening by a coalition of other EU /Western forces to re-establish democratic rule of law. The US alone just spent TRILLIONS of dollars in a lost cause like Afghanistan (a 100% Muslim country), what makes you think they wouldn't throw the table at the whiff of any Islamic state raising in Europe.
3. See 2 above.

Fandymo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117922708#Comment_117922708

1. It may take time, but why let it happen? Climate change will take decades, but people are worried about it now. The current trend is that Western women are having less children and at a later stage in life. It would take a seismic change in working practice, societal pressure and cost of living to arrest this trend. This will not be happening any time soon.
2. Ireland is CURRENTLY in the middle of the Western World. Other EU countries have even less native births compared to Muslim immigrants and the exact same thing will happen there. We are seeing it already with the rise in Muslim political parties in Greece, Bulgaria, Austria, Netherlands, France and Belgium. Slowly, slowly, catchy monkey.

Iker

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117922757#Comment_117922757

You just reminded me of the scene with the steamroller in Austin Powers (sorry, can't post link). 😉

Pretty desperate stuff.

I'd be more worried about what our current Government is doing to the economy, housing, healthcare, and the cost of renting/buying and living in this country.

And by the way, what you are suggesting has never happened in modern history. For this to happen, not only would you need close to 100% population of Ireland to become Muslim (and I can't see you turning any time soon... 🤔). You would need a whole new paradigm and erase the entire history of this country and the Western world (that's roughly 68 countries). I already said on this thread, you can't defeat ideals. From the birth of democracy in Greece (I'm no historian) to Hitler's Germany. Just scrap it all, right? (Good luck trying to make people forget e.g. 9/11, or the Easter Rising) I know you will still insist that this will happen, but neither by religion, nor force and violence has one culture ever assimilated another since the days of the Roman Empire, when most other (assimilated) cultures were small. Those that have tried e.g. the Turks and the Russians in the 20th century, have failed and collapsed themselves into a shadow of their former power, thereby giving rise to fiercely independent (and democratic) countries, like Bulgaria and others in the Balkan region for example. If anything, Western culture has permeated all others. For Western civilisation to utterly, not only collapse but actually BE FORGOTTEN to the minds of future generations, its ideals, would take nothing short of a Biblical Armageddon and Jesus coming in clouds of glory and power. Hey now THAT may happen way before, largely broke, rejected, and tired eastern immigrants somehow take over the world.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117922757#Comment_117922757

You assume that a Muslim country would automatically become a strict Islamic state.

Why?

Cordell

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117923003#Comment_117923003

Because that's the reality?

jmreire

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117922708#Comment_117922708

Amongst the stories floated by the brexiteers ( and possibly their most decisive one ) was that Turkey would be allowed to join the EU, with a population of 80 million. ( It was then and is still an ongoing issue, BTW. Only thing stopping it is Turkeys abysmal human rights record, and the fact that Erdogan is rapidly transferring it from the secular state that Kemal Attaturk envisioned, into a hardline Islamic state.) So with the EU Islamic population increasing by 80 Million + the existing 50 Million = 130 million, would not affect the EU????

And likening it to other religious groups.....My God!

Quote: Yes, Muslims are very devout to their beliefs, but so are some Christians. See the Jehovah's witnesses for instance. They do everything in their lives according to the Bible. They don't eat blood products. They don't associate with people outside their churches. And yet you wouldn't know one if it passed you in the street. Check out the Mormons and other "Christian" sects with their hushed polygamic practices. They still pay taxes. Work. Go to jail if they commit a criminal act. Sure, they can preach death and destruction and Armageddon all they like and condemn other people's way of life all they like, and not associate with non-believers all they like.

( 1 ) Neither do any of the groups you mentions Chop off heads, Hands and Feet, Stone people for Adultery, throw Gays off tall buildings, place suicide bombers in places where the idea is to kill / maim as many as possibe. Treat women horribly..... There's a long long list of inhuman practice's that are exclusively Islamic, in this day and age. They have no place in modern society

But at the end of the day, they must submit to the law like everyone else. Muslims are in the same boat. For example, we see Muslim women walking around wearing hijabs and burkas. Definitely a sensitive issue for many locals. Do you think they do this under coercion? No! they do it because they want to. If e.g. a Muslim man uses violence or the threat of violence to force a woman to dress in any way, this is criminally punishable under domestic violence legislation. It is not in their countries of origin, but it is here. So again,

(2) Nope, its an imposed obligation in Islam. View any of the Iranian sites, Iranwire etc. and you will see if its optional or not. Not to mention the Recent cases of forced Burkha wearing in Afghanistan? Have a look around any Irish City or town with an islamic population and you will see plenty of Burkhas,etc. And there has been here in Ireland, cases of FGM, but what are real Nrs? More than what has been reported /discovered, for sure. No Iker, Islam is in a league of its own, none of the groups you mention comes even close.

From your posts Iker, I take it you have never lived in a hardline Islamic Country? So I will repeat a previous post of mine to you:

"Muslims obey the Quran and Sharia Law, as they are required to do as Muslims. If they don't, then they can no longer call themselves Muslim. The Quran is the actual Word of God, as told to his Prophet Mohammad, the last Messenger. It supersedes all man made laws and cannot be changed ever, except by God.

So there you have it. They will obey the Laws of the Land of the Country that they find themselves in, and indeed, are encouraged to do so in the spread of Islam. Its one of the things that has given them access to non-Islamic Countrys. If all 50 million Muslims currently in the EU decided to suddenly only obey Islamic Laws...now that would trigger a rapid reponse. But to think that it could never happen???? Now, thats not something I'd be taking any bets on, especially if Turkeys 80 million hook up with the EU 50 million. Islam has always been in expansion mode,since the sixth century, as it is still today.

Some personal experieces of mine,while in living in a mixed ( multicultural, if you like, but predominently Muslim Country ) When Notre Dame went on fire, and was shown on TV, Loud cheers and clapping from the assembled colleagues, and the same reaction when Erdogan announced that famous Hagia Sophie was to be reclassified as a Mosque ( despite a world wide outcry, as it was classified as a world heritage site). So tell me again Iker, what happens when the muslim ( especially Radical ) population grows in a Country? You dont believe that it could ever happen here Iker? Never??? Not even in 50 or even in 100 years??

Fandymo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117923003#Comment_117923003

Because that is the goal of Islam.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117923219#Comment_117923219

You really are ignorant to reality. You seem to think all Muslims live in '3rd world brutal states' and are all terrorists.

you need to go educate yourself

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117923477#Comment_117923477

And yet again Jim, I must ask you. Why do you believe this could happen, seeing as how you know not all Muslim countries are strict islamic states?

And you know all Muslims are not extreme muslims.

And you know we have laws in this country that everyone are subject to?

You are beginning to sound like a conspiracy theorist tbh.

BobHopeless

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117923003#Comment_117923003

Name one Islamic country that isn't.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117923553#Comment_117923553

It doesn't matter what the goal of Islam is.

There are many Muslim countries in the world.that are not strict islamic states.

BobHopeless

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117923618#Comment_117923618

And they are.......

jmreire

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117923593#Comment_117923593

Problem is Bubblypop, that while not all Muslim Counttys are radical hardline Islamists, Islam it self has it in its very DNA. There are plenty of muslim Countrys who are fighting radical Islamists. Isis, Al-Quaeda, Talibab. Wahhibsm etc. And yet all the radicals have to do is to point out the relevant passages from the Quran to justify their actions. And as my ex wahibbi friend used to say, " Everything a man wants in Life he can find in the Quran! Peace and Love, ? Certainly, Death to the unbelievers? Yes, of course. And Bubblypop, thats my main objection to Islam. If all of these inhuman practices were deleted for the Quran, I think that I'd be very happy with what would remain. In fact, Sharia Law has several very good advantages over western Law. Its cheap, its quick, and its effective. ( possible reasons that it would not be acceptable in the west,,,,the cheap part especially !!! ) A person lodges a claim in the local Sharia Court, for a very small fee, The case is called, both sides are allowed to make their case, The Judge listens, and then consults the relevent passages in the Quran, and based on this, arrives at a judgement. Job over and done with. At one time when I was in Afghanistan, a local Taliban wanted to "buy" the land off a local Farmer. The Farmer took the case to the court. After hearing both sides, the Judge found in favour of the Farmer, and the Taliban, a very angry Talib, was told in no uncertain term's that the Farmer was right in Sharia Law, and that applied to every Muslim, Taliban or not.

It doesn't matter Jim!

Everyone in a country is subject to the law of that country. You seem to be obsessed when there is no need.

Sharia law will not take over, so relax jim. It's crazy!

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117923634#Comment_117923634

Are you serious?

Do posters actually think that 1.8 billion Muslims live in strict islamic countries?

One eyed Jack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117923634#Comment_117923634

Well there’s Indonesia for starters, has the largest Muslim population in the world, not an Islamic State nor an Islamic Republic, and not at all surprisingly, their Muslim population don’t all think the same way as is being made out by @jmreire .

We all know that adherents of any of the Abrahimic religions consider their religious texts the literal word of God and that they follow their own rules and consider their rules are above the rules made by man, but that doesn’t mean the rules of man don’t apply to them equally as they do to all people regardless of their religious affiliation.

We’re also all aware that it isn’t religious differences or discrimination that influences policies, but it’s rather political differences and discrimination which influences policies.

Cordell

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117923926#Comment_117923926

You seem to forget that law is made by man, not the other way around. So with enough numbers they will be able to influence and change the law of the country, just as the law of the country was made and changed before.

Also, can you please stop insulting me or telling me what I need?

Iker

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117923477#Comment_117923477

Well jm, I'm not saying Muslims are going to change their views of us. Nor their religion and whatever acts it compels them to do. But to say that if any number of Muslims started breaking our laws that would trigger just a 'rapid response', is a big understatement. To go any further and then extrapolate that in 50 or 100 years they will have re-shaped Europe in their image, with everything that endeavour entails, I firmly believe that to be nothing more than a massive failure to understand who we are and how we got to be who we are now. 50 or 100 years is a long time. One thing is to preach of conquering the West back in Iran or wherever, another thing is to be in the frying pan for 50 or 100 years.

I agree that these days Christians and other groups ethnically associated with the West, do not kill, main, etc... on foot of religious beliefs. Arguably however, specially from the point of view of Muslims, we do very much so kill and maim for our secular beliefs (freedom, democracy, etc...) no need to point examples there. Is not like we are shy about it.

So, where does that leave us? See, what I think proponents of a reactionary (knee-jerk I would call it) approach to Islam in Europe fail to comprehend, is the lengths we, not them, go to maintain our freedoms. Which is of course perplexing, as it is on the news practically 24/7 and there is a whole movie and video-game industry around it. So, let me ask you again, how exactly are 50 or 100 million Muslims, constrained by the same laws as you and me, defended yes but also constrained by the same Constitutional guarantees (in some countries not even defended by these, to quote you), principles and laws for which we do burn half the world to defend (fact), just how are they going to take over us? Are they going to get us to convert to Islam by winning our hearts? because failing that, it is not happening. Never by force, that, is the ultimate no-no friend, as it is already evident.

It won't happen jm. But even if it gets closer to happening (and that's a massive if), it will only get so far. Then it will be like Nazism and Fascism got so far (some still around and very much disliked). Like communism in the East got so far. Like the Roman Empire, then morphed into the Catholic church got so far. It may have laid the foundation for modern Europe, but the church doesn't rule us. Like the Turks got so far trying to get into the EU. And then, if Islam proves is truly subversive, it will fail. Miserably, loudly and it will serve as yet another example of a subculture that proved subversive to our freedoms. We'll tell our future generations of how stubbornly determined Western society was to NOT be ruled by any God. And that's who we are, if you didn't know. Unless we choose it or create it ourselves, not God can rule us. You are forgetting that. We are rebellious. Dangerously so actually. We don't do submission. Islam is all about submitting. We do either consent or war. Yes, even fat and lazy as we are.

See unlike you, I haven't lived in Muslim countries. But I am pretty certain that while Islam maybe (or not) promoting this aggressive take over you talk about over in Iran and these traditionally Muslim countries, individual Muslims are just human, vulnerable, flawed and also not stupid, just like us. So yeah, the day 50 or 100 million Muslims decide to break the law and stage a coup in Europe, they will be 50 or 100 million Muslims in an ocean of trouble. Nothing more. Civil war comes to mind. Foreign intervention comes to mind. Round up and mass deportations come to mind (see WW2 for precedents on this). Revocation of nationalities if involved in activities subversive to the State comes to mind (already happens). All this, and a whole lot more, would not just happen, it would definitely happen should the scenario you fear ever take place.

Jm, Islam may defeat many things for its weight, but nothing, I repeat nothing, defeats Western ideals. It's like the moment the guillotines went up in France, Pandora's box was open. No one can close it. We are the biggest danger to other cultures, not the other way around. Which explains Islam lashing out. Because pal, like it or not, our values are mighty (even if we don't live by them! LOL). Fecking unstoppable if you like, especially when someone threatens our freedoms. No. Correction even when we just think that someone may threaten our freedoms. Did you miss the part where we just went into the Middle East and set them back 100 years? Have you seen what cities over there look like now? They don't even have sewage and running water anymore. And all this because a few of their radicals thought they could start something that would lead to this fabled Islamic resurgence.

You really seem to ascribe to them some almost super-human powers of infiltration, endurance and take-over. Jm these are just people! Yes, very different to us, but people. They fill a nappy too if they are in danger, they aren't all some 100% determined jihadist. They get tired. They give up. Hell, some even convert to Christianity. Furthermore, back in the real world, they won't be given the chance to carry out a coup any more than you or I are given the chance. The system protects itself, I thought that was evident. So, I'll never see poor immigrants as some existential threat to Western civilization, sorry. I know too much to be that simple.

Europe is on the verge of setting down common immigration policy. I expect this wave of immigration to subside. Many will be deported; many will go back themselves (can't be easy, admit it). And in the future, it will be a lot harder to get in. That is all within the realm of what's in the pipeline. So please, let's stop the collective scaremongering together, its demeaning ourselves and our own culture.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117924001#Comment_117924001

considering there are Muslim majority countries in the world that are not strict islamic states, how many muslims do you think would need to be living in this country for it to turn into an Islamic state?

Hilarious.

How am I insulting you exactly?

One eyed Jack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117924001#Comment_117924001

Wouldn’t matter how many numbers there are when they have no political influence, and it is politicians who agree on laws, that’s kinda the point of a representative democracy. You’re still arguing as though all Muslims think the same when in reality they very clearly do not, and it’s either through ignorance, or deliberately trying to mislead anyone, that you portray all Muslims as thinking the same way as you do.

WrenBoy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117924098#Comment_117924098

We do not need these problems here Bubbly:

https://apnews.com/article/paris-europe-ea16d38eabdb94819caedfb28c048950

French Interior Minister Gerald Darmanin said Thursday a state school teacher who allegedly received death threats after writing an open letter on the threat of radical Islam to teachers has been offered the highest level of state protection.

Lemaire, a philosophy teacher, said he received death threats after he wrote an open letter saying the state did not do enough to protect teacher Samuel Paty.

Paty was beheaded last October by 18-year-old Abdullakh Anzorov, after he showed cartoons of the Prophet Mohammed in a class on freedom of expression. 

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117923594#Comment_117923594

Lebanon

Malaysia

Indonesia

Albania

Bosnia

Kosovo

Turkey

Azerbaijan

Tunisia

Morocco

A lot of the 'Stans' of central Asia, not Pakistan or Afghanistan, obvs!

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117923618#Comment_117923618

We already showed the statistics, MOST are against Western values .

The vast majority already here are not compatible. You ignored the statistics

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117924129#Comment_117924129

What would you suggest to make sure that doesn't happen here?

Cordell

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117924145#Comment_117924145

First country on your list: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lebanon#Law

Also https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lebanon#LGBT_rights

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117924168#Comment_117924168

You showed statistics on one poll carried out. I don't know anything about the poll, how it was carried out, on who, where.

Statistics can be misused and misleading.

WrenBoy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117924188#Comment_117924188

I don't have the solution so thats why Im wary of having a more Multi-cultural Ireland , you seem to be gung-ho for having a multi-cultural Ireland so what would you suggest to make sure this doesn't happen here like it did in France ?

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117924197#Comment_117924197

What's your point?

Lebanon is a Muslim majority country that is not a strict islamic state.

ever been there?

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117924223#Comment_117924223

Do you think multiculturalism is just muslim? Or is it just Muslims you have an issue with?

I would treat all crimes exactly As they are treated now.