What are your views on Multiculturalism in Ireland? - Threadbanned User List in OP

Granadino

Granadino wrote: »

I agree, they should just call people "American". Worst offenders are "Irish Americans" or "Italian Americans", who are most definitely just Americans to me.

Or African Americans? At least the Irish and Italian Americans hold some connection with their ancestral culture (festivals, foods, etc). African Americans are essentially Americans, taking very little from Africa.

But yes, I'd be of the opinion, that they should just consider themselves American, and stop looking for reasons to be separate.

Eric Cartman

biko wrote: »

Does multiculturalism also mean Brits buying properties and living in enclaves in Spain, many not learning Spanish nor interacting with the locals?

This is the worst part, everyone agrees thats a scourge and that spain is worse for it. A measurable percentage of violence oriented drunks among them ruin the reputation and enjoyability of many resorts and discourage others from visiting. Most reasonable people could agree it would be better without those types.

Now that said when we talk about similar or much worse problems from other communities immigrating , if those communities happen to be non white, suddenly discussing the issue is inherrintly ‘racist’

Speaking of multiculturalism in Ireland and Brits in Spain and all that, well RTE the shower never tell the truth about multiculturalism/immigration in Ireland. Same as the BBC when it comes to England - only ever talk about 'racism' and how it affects 'minorities'.

However, on their travel/tourism shows when talking about places like Croatia, Slovakia and the Czech Republic they often recommend visiting 'less touristy places' off the beaten path - for a more 'authentic' experience :pac:. Seems they have no problem compartmentalizing their cognitive dissonance hypocritical bullsh1t :rolleyes:

Wompa1

Hamachi wrote: »

I don’t know. Your argument may just be an innocuous brain fart. However, I can’t help but feel there is a covert agenda here.

We had a famine that killed over a million and sent a million more abroad. The size of families at the time were much larger than now. What happens when there are generations of large families typically all located in the same regions and areas. Who are they marrying? Who are they having kids with?

There are people in this country today who are married to their 2nd, 3rd or 4th cousins and don't realize it.

Wibbs wrote: »

True, but populations in sub Saharan Africa have their own type of iron toxicity also genetic, so you could get a double whammy there. Genetic diversity is a really slim thread to hang an argument for modern multiculturalism on. Never mind that partnerships between groups is a minority overall. The vast majority of people pair up with and have kids with those of the same attractiveness, social background, educational background and cultural and ethnic background and yep "race". Some cultural groups are less likely again to "marry out". Jews for example*, some Middle Easterners and South Asians.
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People who move here when young are more likely to mingle and get with locals. It's young families that are most needed in some of the rural villages that haven't recovered from 2008 yet.

Genetics is not the only thread to hang an argument on. Others have already put forward other arguments too. No one had brought up diversifying our gene pool so I figured I'd throw it in.

Wibbs

Wompa1 wrote: »

We had a famine that killed over a million and sent a million more abroad. The size of families at the time were much larger than now. What happens when there are generations of large families typically all located in the same regions and areas. Who are they marrying? Who are they having kids with?

There are people in this country today who are married to their 2nd, 3rd or 4th cousins and don't realize it.

Citation please. Plus genetics doesn't work like that. Second cousins would have slightly elevated risks of passing on genetic faults, beyond that the risks would quickly run to background. Never mind that outside of urban areas throughout the world, for most of human history people lived in small communities having larger families than average in the west today. Not too many banjo players resulted. Never mind that some South Asian cultures have much higher rates of consanguinity which has become a knotty problem in places like the UK because of cultural sensitivity. Never mind that interracial marriage is a minority compared to background and again among some cultures even less likely.

People who move here when young are more likely to mingle and get with locals. It's young families that are most needed in some of the rural villages that haven't recovered from 2008 yet.

Genetics is not the only thread to hang an argument on. Others have already put forward other arguments too. No one had brought up diversifying our gene pool so I figured I'd throw it in.

You must have missed this bit:

Me. Previously. wrote: »

Oh its a point often raised in relation to this push for diversity W. A couple of problems with it, one local, the other more European wide.

The local one is that unlike the majority of other EU nations Ireland has a growing population and the highest birthrate in the EU. We quite simply don’t have the demographic shift or anything like it of the rest. We're not running out of our locals anytime soon. And yet that argument has been wheeled out here. Either through dishonesty, laziness in repeating the same catechism, or stupidity, or all of the above. This kinda illustrates the same “diversity” hymn sheet is being sung from by all who push this politic.

More mainland European wise, for all the talk of open EU borders and we're all Europeans together, you hear little talk of trying to encourage trained and educated Europeans from other EU states with unemployment problems to ones with more opportunities. No German companies setting up employment fairs in Portugal or Greece or Spain, or reporting on them if they exist. Oh no, let's bring in non EU, non Europeans, many if not most who don't have the qualifications and come from quite different cultures into the place to shore up the gaps.

Wibbs

Wompa1 wrote: »

People who move here when young are more likely to mingle and get with locals. It's young families that are most needed in some of the rural villages that haven't recovered from 2008 yet.

On this particular point: Rural renewal of that nature doesn't work. It's been tried before elsewhere in a few countries. Spain for example looked at their dwindling rural village and town populations and extended invitations to Spanish speakers from various parts of South America, so long as they moved to small towns and villages. And some came, but what happened? The first chance they could get after their time limit was up most up sticks and moved to urban areas, because that's where the higher education, jobs and lives were. Their kids would do this even more rapidly. France has seen similar rural flight to the cities. Hell we've already tried to decentralise Ireland and yet where do people go? The urban areas. Dublin, Cork, Galway. Again you have to work with human nature rather than a Hail Mary social experiment.

Hamachi

Wompa1 wrote: »

We had a famine that killed over a million and sent a million more abroad. The size of families at the time were much larger than now. What happens when there are generations of large families typically all located in the same regions and areas. Who are they marrying? Who are they having kids with?

There are people in this country today who are married to their 2nd, 3rd or 4th cousins and don't realize it.



People who move here when young are more likely to mingle and get with locals. It's young families that are most needed in some of the rural villages that haven't recovered from 2008 yet.

Genetics is not the only thread to hang an argument on. Others have already put forward other arguments too. No one had brought up diversifying our gene pool so I figured I'd throw it in.

Sierra Leone in West Africa and Laos in South East Asia have roughly the same population as the aggregate total on this island. Do you believe that those nations should be genetically diversified by Europeans?

Ireland has healthy demographics. The population is growing naturally by about 40K people annually (ROI + NI). Similarly, the population pyramid of this country is relatively robust. If I recall correctly, 22% of the population is < 15 years old, which ensures future population momentum. The imperative here is implementing the right strategy to ensure that Irish people maintain their near replacement fertility levels long into future.

There’s simply no merit in your argument around genetic diversification.

Biafranlivemat

Slowyourrole wrote: »

Black people came from slavery, are more likely to live in poverty, are subject to regular racism, and have very little political power in comparison to white people. I'd hope your solution that they should sort the country themselves is motivated by extreme ignorance and not simply callous disregard for what it means to be under the boot of society.

Black people came from slavery...yes. But it is now the year 2020
are more likely to live in poverty….yes, who’s fault is that in the year 2020
are subject to regular racism….yes, the Racism from white liberals is bad


And have very little political power in comparison to white people...Wrong, Blacks have political power, they just don't use it. They have loyally voted 90% + for Democrats for over 50 years, and look at their situation they voted themselves into.

Biafranlivemat

Biafranlivemat wrote: »

Black people came from slavery...yes.

No, they actually didn't.

"Black America was similarly transformed. Before 1965, black people of foreign birth residing in the United States were nearly invisible. According to the 1960 census, their percentage of the population was to the right of the decimal point. But after 1965, men and women of African descent entered the United States in ever-increasing numbers. During the 1990s, some 900,000 black immigrants came from the Caribbean; another 400,000 came from Africa; still others came from Europe and the Pacific rim. By the beginning of the 21st century, more people had come from Africa to live in the United States than during the centuries of the slave trade. At that point, nearly one in ten black Americans was an immigrant or the child of an immigrant."


As for racism, they experience more than most ethnic groups, including tribal racism directed at them by other black people.

And have very little political power in comparison to white people...Wrong, Blacks have political power, they just don't use it. They have loyally voted 90% + for Democrats for over 50 years, and look at their situation they voted themselves into.

They have some political power. The real issue is wealth. Black communities are generally poor and underdeveloped, which decreases the contributions financially to US politics, (which is heavily influenced by the wealth you can bring to bear). Entering politics without independent wealth means whoring out to a political lobby of some sort. All the same though, groups like BLM and other black organisations have a lot of wealth at their fingertips.

The problem with the US is the two party system. It simply can't represent the needs of everyone, and people will lose out. Be that the Black community, the Hispanics, or poor white groups. Invariably, the political parties cater to the upper middle class and upper classes, except for indirect benefits due to county improvements/concerns.

Thankfully, Ireland is better than that because we don't have a history of racism here, and while our politics might be somewhat narrow at times, there's scope for all voices to be heard. Black people in Ireland have complete equality with White people. Racism will always exist to a certain degree, but it's up to Black people to join a society, rather than stand on the sidelines throwing accusations about racism and discrimination. Doing so will simply encourage a similar culture, which can be found in more "experienced" multicultural societies, to grow here... ie. actual direct and commonplace racism.

TBH I feel that often minority groups concerned with racism generate that very racism through their need to be recognised as victims. It's pushed into everyone's faces online or in the media. Regardless of whether you feel any degree of racism towards a non-white group (or cultural group) you're collectively held responsible for those who do... which must encourage some people to actually get annoyed enough to become actual racists.. contempt, frustration, bitterness, etc. Not every form of racism comes from a superiority complex, or hatred/anger.

Eric Cartman

Hunky Monster wrote: »

To keep this diversity is good propaganda going they’re going to have to push a Muslim into a high position soon. I would bet my life on there being a Muslim mayor of one of the big cities soon and within 3 years being in the Dail.

I’m saying this so I can quote it in a few weeks/months time. It happens everywhere and don’t be surprised if someone gets a push soon.

He was right too, muslim mayor of limerick appointed

ELM327

Biafranlivemat wrote: »

Black people came from slavery...yes. But it is now the year 2020
are more likely to live in poverty….yes, who’s fault is that in the year 2020
are subject to regular racism….yes, the Racism from white liberals is bad


And have very little political power in comparison to white people...Wrong, Blacks have political power, they just don't use it. They have loyally voted 90% + for Democrats for over 50 years, and look at their situation they voted themselves into.

Ah the democrats. The party of slavery, the KKK, segregation, and all that great stuff for african americans?

dominatinMC

Eric Cartman wrote: »

He was right too, muslim mayor of limerick appointed

Where did you see that. I didn't know Michael Collins was a Muslim..

ELM327

dominatinMC wrote: »

Where did you see that. I didn't know Michael Collins was a Muslim..

Abul Kalam Azud Talukder was a councillor, not a mayor. I assume that's who he's referring to?

Eric Cartman

ELM327 wrote: »

Abul Kalam Azud Talukder was a councillor, not a mayor. I assume that's who he's referring to?

Thats it, my apologies

Working class heroes

https://www.roadtoroundwood.ie/

Great idea this.

US2

Working class heroes wrote: »

https://www.roadtoroundwood.ie/

Great idea this.

Literally all that's on that website is a link for donations..

I wonder do they check who is actually fleeing from war and who's here for the dole. You have to pass through many safe European countries to get to Ireland.

Working class heroes

US2 wrote: »

Literally all that's on that website is a link for donations..

I wonder do they check who is actually fleeing from war and who's here for the dole. You have to pass through many safe European countries to get to Ireland.

Literally, you are wrong. Try again.

Working class heroes

Working class heroes wrote: »

https://www.roadtoroundwood.ie/

Great idea this.

Our main goal is to welcome and resettle a family from a conflict zone to our safe and beautiful village through:

Fundraising to support our goal

Identifying accommodation for the family

Co-ordinating access to the State’s Social Protection services

Co-ordinating access to Health Services

Co-ordinating access to the Education System for children and other training e.g. English Language

Providing any practical and logistical support to the family

Assisting in any other way to welcome the family to our community

Which seems fairly good in my view. They're intent on setting up the family, and ensuring that the family has everything needed to integrate. Can't see too many downsides... although I can see severe issues relating to psychological/social problems arising from their experiences, which could easily blow up in the faces of the organisers... Many children from warzones have been trained to be actual soldiers, so there's a definite danger there.

No mention whether this is a temporary setup... ie whether they would be in Ireland to stay forever, or return after the war has ended. I'm guessing the aim is to set them up and keep them here.

Eric Cartman

Deleted User wrote: »

Which seems fairly good in my view. They're intent on setting up the family, and ensuring that the family has everything needed to integrate. Can't see too many downsides... although I can see severe issues relating to psychological/social problems arising from their experiences, which could easily blow up in the faces of the organisers... Many children from warzones have been trained to be actual soldiers, so there's a definite danger there.

No mention whether this is a temporary setup... ie whether they would be in Ireland to stay forever, or return after the war has ended. I'm guessing the aim is to set them up and keep them here.

no mention of work permits, job interviews, employable skills etc.. just 'free gaf and welfare' . The worst part is the type of people who come up with these wouldn't even have the idea of them working in their heads.

Working class heroes

Eric Cartman wrote: »

no mention of work permits, job interviews, employable skills etc.. just 'free gaf and welfare' . The worst part is the type of people who come up with these wouldn't even have the idea of them working in their heads.

Can you substantiate your points with regard to the link I posted please?

Or is that just the same guff you usually post?

Thanks.

Varik

Not many places that'd be less suitable than Roundwood.

Only public transport is coaches going from dublin through to glendalough with tourists taking the long way, and can't see there being any chance of employment for them and as for housing if they get space for 1 family it'd be a miracle.

Seems to be some old biddies looking for an excuse for another walk.

Wibbs

I have no issue with actual refugee families from the sh1tshow that is the ME coming and if they bring a family to Roundwood then game ball. It's not close to the "refugees" crossing the Med in rubber dinghies from Libya and the like, almost all of whom are men.

jmayo

Wompa1 wrote: »

We had a famine that killed over a million and sent a million more abroad. The size of families at the time were much larger than now. What happens when there are generations of large families typically all located in the same regions and areas. Who are they marrying? Who are they having kids with?

Ah yes the old trope about the famine wheeled out.

Wompa1 wrote: »

People who move here when young are more likely to mingle and get with locals. It's young families that are most needed in some of the rural villages that haven't recovered from 2008 yet.

Ah yes more of the crud about how these uneducated migrants are going to save our rural villages.
Shure won't they open up businesses and shops. :rolleyes:
Wasn't that why they were being sent to Rooskey, Achill, Outherard.

FFS is there anymore wafflely shyte you are going to trott out.

As already pointed out the moment they can leave they up sticks, like the locals, to move to city with more opportunities.

Deleted User wrote: »

No, they actually didn't.

"Black America was similarly transformed. Before 1965, black people of foreign birth residing in the United States were nearly invisible. According to the 1960 census, their percentage of the population was to the right of the decimal point. But after 1965, men and women of African descent entered the United States in ever-increasing numbers. During the 1990s, some 900,000 black immigrants came from the Caribbean; another 400,000 came from Africa; still others came from Europe and the Pacific rim. By the beginning of the 21st century, more people had come from Africa to live in the United States than during the centuries of the slave trade. At that point, nearly one in ten black Americans was an immigrant or the child of an immigrant."

Actually you are touching on an interesting point.
People throw out the likes of Colin Powell and Obama as pointers to how black people are reaching high office and positions of power in the US over the last number of decades.

But there is a bit of asterisk along with those names in particular and I am not sure if anyone has done any study in this, although I would say a lot of people would be scared sh**less to dare discuss it.
Colin Powell is the son of emigrants from Jamaica.
Obama the son of a white American woman and an African father.

They are in no way representative of the vast majority of America African American community.

And yes when people talk about black Americans there is always connection with the country's history of slavery, but nearly 4 million black Americans were actually born outside the country.
Yes a fair amount originated in Caribbean or South of the border, but a fair chunk are actually really African.
They make up 36% of the foreign born black population.

I don't really think it's relevant to talking about multiculturalism in Ireland or Europe. The US is a clusterfcuk, and it's mistakes aren't really repeatable over here. We don't have the history or numbers... which is why I really wish BLM or other US organisations would keep this **** in the US and stop trying to push it on the rest of the world.

So, lets move on, shall we? There's enough other threads about American and Black people.

jmayo

Working class heroes wrote: »

https://www.roadtoroundwood.ie/

Great idea this.

I think that is brain child of one particular person.

Deleted User wrote: »

Which seems fairly good in my view. They're intent on setting up the family, and ensuring that the family has everything needed to integrate. Can't see too many downsides... although I can see severe issues relating to psychological/social problems arising from their experiences, which could easily blow up in the faces of the organisers... Many children from warzones have been trained to be actual soldiers, so there's a definite danger there.

Our main goal is to welcome and resettle a family from a conflict zone to our safe and beautiful village through:

Fundraising to support our goal

Identifying accommodation for the family

Co-ordinating access to the State’s Social Protection services

Co-ordinating access to Health Services

Co-ordinating access to the Education System for children and other training e.g. English Language

Providing any practical and logistical support to the family

Assisting in any other way to welcome the family to our community

Identifying accommodation?
There is very little spare accommodation even for born and bred locals all because it is so close to Dublin meaning that locals don't have to leave to find work ala the West of Ireland or Midlands, etc.

Oh and there is a freeze on building in the village since the water treatment is not capable of handling anymore, well unless they don't mind it overflowing and into Vartry Reservoir.

I wonder does the logistical support mean they show them where to stand to get the St kevins bus from Glendalough ?

And as for access to education, well the local primary school is packed and some of the kids had no secondary school places for next year because the default school they are meant go to in kilcoole was totally oversubscribed and couldn't take them all in.
Oh and the new school for Greystones is going to be prefabs in the local rugby club for the next 3 or 4 years.

BTW just for information the two plonker ministers from that town didn't seem overly concerned until of course they heard about a protest outside school in Kilcoole about lack of places.
Then that two faced cretin donnelly showed up.
Not sure if Harris gives a shtye.
The only one that really gave a cr** was Laura Whittmore.

Mr. Karate

Wibbs wrote: »

I have no issue with actual refugee families from the sh1tshow that is the ME coming and if they bring a family to Roundwood then game ball. It's not close to the "refugees" crossing the Med in rubber dinghies from Libya and the like, almost all of whom are men.

The majority of "refugees" coming from the Middle East area are also Men of Military age. We've been conned and our Govt officials are too arrogant to admit. That or they're enriching themselves off this. Most likely both.

Wibbs

Oh sure Mr K, that's why I specified families. No issue with that. And if you look at refugees of all backgrounds and histories fleeing wars down the years you notice one thing; they're overwhelmingly made up of women and children and old people, not young men. Look at the photos of refugees after the fall of France in the early months of World War Two. Nearly all are old and women and children. I know two refugees to Ireland when I was a kid in the early 80's. In both cases their fathers had gotten their families out first and followed them on. The oddly skewed demographics of the refugee crisis in the EU is one reason why I have very cynical views of many if not most of them. And it seems our own government agrees as the bodies involved in letting people in are rejecting the vast majority, near 100% of certain groups are rejecting them.

ExMachina1000

Half of the French military that are on deployment are deployed on French streets.

It's too late for them. The country has lost its identity.

Mr. Karate

ExMachina1000 wrote: »

Half of the French military that are on deployment are deployed on French streets.

It's too late for them. The country has lost its identity.

Until they're willing to start mass deporting this crowd France is dead. The big questions are can the French hold on until 2022 and actually elect someone who will stop this destruction and will France be worth saving by then?

the-island-man

Multiculturalism sounds like a grand idea in theory but it depends on a lot of factors.

That culture you're going to import needs to be aligned with the basic values of Ireland or Western Europe. The import process needs to be slow and Immigrants need to be split up into separate areas so that there is less of a barrier\reason not to integrate into the local community. If you don't do this then be prepared to run the risk of ending up with ghetto's. Of course if these logical measures were introduced, the government would get accused of being heartless or even racist.

If you want an example of where Ghetto's have formed due to a group of people who are perceived by the rest of the population to be untrustworthy and worthless look no further than the travelling community. It just ends up being a self fulfilling prophecy where members of them communities get a bad name and then can't get work, are outcast and turn to illegal means to get money.