What are your views on Multiculturalism in Ireland? - Threadbanned User List in OP

darlett

Double entendre

darlett

endacl wrote: »

Hard to imagine a dish that can’t be improved by adding a dash of spice.

Good thing.

You dont put spice into a proper full Irish. :mad:



Metaphor aside I agree with your POV

seenitall

Mr. Karate wrote: »

Until they're willing to start mass deporting this crowd France is dead. The big questions are can the French hold on until 2022 and actually elect someone who will stop this destruction and will France be worth saving by then?

Nothing like that is going to be happening in a good while yet. The French government, any French govermment, won't be risking civil war on their streets by enforcing mass deportations - they didn't even dare enforce COVID measures in the banlieues!

This type of stuff, the ethnic clash, tends to rumble on for years or decades, and then one day it just explodes in a big huge fireball, in a most ugly manner. As per my username, I have witnessed it all before, in another life and another country. Same thing happening in some western countries now. It's just not party time yet.

The human penchant for closing eyes before problems and sweeping them under the carpet until the stinky stuff has absorbed the carpet, is very unfortunate and is a guarantee that there will be much more damage wreaked on some societies than had there been some timely interventions in play.

2u2me

darlett wrote: »

You dont put spice into a proper full Irish. :mad:

Your sausages must be pretty tasteless :pac:

Slowyourrole

Mr. Karate wrote: »

The majority of "refugees" coming from the Middle East area are also Men of Military age. We've been conned and our Govt officials are too arrogant to admit. That or they're enriching themselves off this. Most likely both.

If we're talking about what is "most likely", is it not most likely that the men come first to set up for their families and then bring them over?

seenitall

seenitall wrote: »

Nothing like that is going to be happening in a good while yet. The French government, any French govermment, won't be risking civil war on their streets by enforcing mass deportations - they didn't even dare enforce COVID measures in the banlieues!

It's tricky because western nations are expected to obey human rights... so from a legal standpoint, they know they'll face serious backlash from NGO's, activists, and the EU itself, if they tried to mass deport any population.

It's one of the reasons that the West is so vulnerable to migration. Once they're in your country, you're going to be expected to treat them the same as everyone else in your country... whereas when they're outside, human rights is more of a nice idea.

This type of stuff, the ethnic clash, tends to rumble on for years or decades, and then one day it just explodes in a big huge fireball, in a most ugly manner. As per my username, I have witnessed it all before, in another life and another country. Same thing happening in some western countries now. It's just not party time yet.

The human penchant for closing eyes before problems and sweeping them under the carpet until the stinky stuff has absorbed the carpet, is very unfortunate and is a guarantee that there will be much more damage wreaked on some societies than had there been some timely interventions in play.

Completely agree.

Slowyourrole

Slowyourrole wrote: »

If we're talking about what is "most likely", is it not most likely that the men come first to set up for their families and then bring them over?

Yeah.. but how are they free to do so, and who would leave their family in a warzone while they travel, and get processed? Would you leave your wife and children in a warzone, while you go through the overall application process (months in addition to traveling and appeals)?

Human nature is to be more sympathetic to women and children, so it actually makes more logic to send them first.

In any case, in a warzone, males (adults and teens) will be conscripted by one side or another, so how are these young men free to travel?

jmreire

Deleted User wrote: »

Yeah.. but how are they free to do so, and who would leave their family in a warzone while they travel, and get processed? Would you leave your wife and children in a warzone, while you go through the overall application process (months in addition to traveling and appeals)?

Human nature is to be more sympathetic to women and children, so it actually makes more logic to send them first.

In any case, in a warzone, males (adults and teens) will be conscripted by one side or another, so how are these young men free to travel?

From Syria, at any rate...many thousands of men of military age managed it, and they were the first to go, leaving Family and friends behind. They had to go, and it was easier to do it alone. Other wise, conscripted by either the regime or the rebels waited.
And of course many thousands of Families managed to get out too once it started to get bad...There are about 5.6 million Syrian refugees living outside Syria.

jmreire

jmreire wrote: »

From Syria, at any rate...many thousands of men of military age managed it, and they were the first to go, leaving Family and friends behind. They had to go, and it was easier to do it alone. Other wise, conscripted by either the regime or the rebels waited.
And of course many thousands of Families managed to get out too once it started to get bad...There are about 5.6 million Syrian refugees living outside Syria.

So, you don't find it suspicious that the people at the perfect age to be conscripted to serve in the various groups would be allowed to escape? Not just one or two dozen, but thousands? TBH, It stretches credibility for me. I've spoken to people who participated or lived through civil wars in Africa, and... very few managed to escape those without serving, one way or another.

And yes, I've heard the statistics and reports. Even living in China without much access to western media, I heard all about it. Could also check here on boards to see the various discussions going on... and see how many discussions were shut down.

jmreire

Deleted User wrote: »

So, you don't find it suspicious that the people at the perfect age to be conscripted to serve in the various groups would be allowed to escape? Not just one or two dozen, but thousands? TBH, It stretches credibility for me. I've spoken to people who participated or lived through civil wars in Africa, and... very few managed to escape those without serving, one way or another.

And yes, I've heard the statistics and reports. Even living in China without much access to western media, I heard all about it. Could also check here on boards to see the various discussions going on... and see how many discussions were shut down.

Yes, I've followed a few discussions here on boards and about Syria too Klaz. But you can trust me when I say that many thousands of not only military age Syrian's, but men of all ages escaped,,,you don't think that the 5+ million who did escape, were all Women Children and Elderly??
Were your friends who experienced war or participated in it in Africa, and discussed it with you military or civilian ?
China being China ( I've never been there, BTW) but my understanding of it is that no other Country keeps a tighter grip on its citizens. ( except possibly Russia ) Would agree?? Many people get caught up in war, simply because they cannot escape, but many who can escape do so.

jmreire

jmreire wrote: »

Yes, I've followed a few discussions here on boards and about Syria too Klaz. But you can trust me when I say that many thousands of not only military age Syrian's, but men of all ages escaped,,,you don't think that the 5+ million who did escape, were all Women Children and Elderly??

Oh, I do trust you And I didn't think that. I'm not an idiot. Usually. :pac:

Were your friends who experienced war or participated in it in Africa, and discussed it with you military or civilian ?

Civilians who were "drafted" by one side or another. I also know two men and one woman who were child soldiers, before they managed to leave. I spent some time traveling/working through Western Africa about ten years ago, and met many people who had left their original countries to live elsewhere in Africa.

China being China ( I've never been there, BTW) but my understanding of it is that no other Country keeps a tighter grip on its citizens. ( except possibly Russia ) Would agree?? Many people get caught up in war, simply because they cannot escape, but many who can escape do so.

There's a lot of misunderstanding about the reality of what mainland China is like. As long as you avoid attracting the attention of the government, they''ll leave you alone to do pretty much whatever you like. In many ways, considering the sheer amount of regulations/laws in Europe to protect people (from themselves or others), China is, in many ways, a more free place.

However, when you do attract the attention of the government, then you're basically screwed unless you have plenty of money, or very influential friends. It really depends on whether it's the local government or Beijing. Chinese officials are very corrupt so there's usually options for many involved.

jmreire

Deleted User wrote: »

Oh, I do trust you And I didn't think that. I'm not an idiot. Usually. :pac:

LOL, No Klaz, I'm not suggesting that at all...on the contrary.!!! If you are an idiot, you are dong a remarkable job of hiding it ...

Civilians who were "drafted" by one side or another. I also know two men and one woman who were child soldiers, before they managed to leave. I spent some time traveling/working through Western Africa about ten years ago, and met many people who had left their original countries to live elsewhere in Africa.
Yes, I've been in Africa too Liberia, Libya and Darfur. But even in those places, people managed to "escape ", as you mentioned, even if thousands did not and were conscripted .


There's a lot of misunderstanding about the reality of what mainland China is like. As long as you avoid attracting the attention of the government, they''ll leave you alone to do pretty much whatever you like. In many ways, considering the sheer amount of regulations/laws in Europe to protect people (from themselves or others), China is, in many ways, a more free place.

However, when you do attract the attention of the government, then you're basically screwed unless you have plenty of money, or very influential friends. It really depends on whether it's the local government or Beijing. Chinese officials are very corrupt so there's usually options for many involved.

Yes in this part of the world, we are fed ( and increasingly so) a diet of basically Chinese inhumanity to man. Hong Kong, Taiwan, Border with India,Uighurs and Covid-19 currently top of the menu. And on the security side..see all tell all AI cameras on every corner / intersection reporting your every move. So unless you have seen it yourself, as you have, that's the impression you have about China.

jmreire

jmreire wrote: »

Yes in this part of the world, we are fed ( and increasingly so) a diet of basically Chinese inhumanity to man. Hong Kong, Taiwan, Border with India,Uighurs and Covid-19 currently top of the menu. And on the security side..see all tell all AI cameras on every corner / intersection reporting your every move. So unless you have seen it yourself, as you have, that's the impression you have about China.

Oh, it's all true but it depends on the spin used. Most Chinese don't really care about what happens outside of their own daily lives... and while there are cameras everywhere, we all know just how bad Chinese people are at maintaining electronics or such. Few cameras will be operational outside of the main tourist areas, and security zones such as HK. They're just too expensive to maintain, and many Chinese workers are extremely lazy.. the newer generation more so.

The West is interesting though. Nobody talks about the corrupt Spanish/Italian governments, or how business is often very risky.. There's scams all over the southern end of Europe... but in the open, Europe is honest, and legit. Just as we see the reports of the NSA monitoring US citizens or Merkel, but dismiss the idea that other governments aren't doing likewise.. or people complain about Police control during covid but imagine that China is so much worse. Because it fits the image to have China as the boogeyman. Don't get me wrong... I definitely don't want China to be the dominant power in the world.. They've got a severe inferiority complex and a lot of scores to settle..

Mr. Karate

Slowyourrole wrote: »

If we're talking about what is "most likely", is it not most likely that the men come first to set up for their families and then bring them over?

If you're a Man and your Country is a warzone wouldn't you get your family the hell out of there first?

Mr. Karate

Deleted User wrote: »

It's tricky because western nations are expected to obey human rights... so from a legal standpoint, they know they'll face serious backlash from NGO's, activists, and the EU itself, if they tried to mass deport any population.

It's one of the reasons that the West is so vulnerable to migration. Once they're in your country, you're going to be expected to treat them the same as everyone else in your country... whereas when they're outside, human rights is more of a nice idea.



Completely agree.

Eventually will have to tell the UN, NGOs ,etc to go pound sand and we have a right the deport immigrants who can't/won't behave in out Countries. And these bleeding hearts can go with them if they so desire.

People will only tolerate this for so long as history as shown us over the years.

jmreire

Deleted User wrote: »

Oh, it's all true but it depends on the spin used. Most Chinese don't really care about what happens outside of their own daily lives... and while there are cameras everywhere, we all know just how bad Chinese people are at maintaining electronics or such. Few cameras will be operational outside of the main tourist areas, and security zones such as HK. They're just too expensive to maintain, and many Chinese workers are extremely lazy.. the newer generation more so.

The West is interesting though. Nobody talks about the corrupt Spanish/Italian governments, or how business is often very risky.. There's scams all over the southern end of Europe... but in the open, Europe is honest, and legit. Just as we see the reports of the NSA monitoring US citizens or Merkel, but dismiss the idea that other governments aren't doing likewise.. or people complain about Police control during covid but imagine that China is so much worse. Because it fits the image to have China as the boogeyman. Don't get me wrong... I definitely don't want China to be the dominant power in the world.. They've got a severe inferiority complex and a lot of scores to settle..

Yes agreed 100%,,,you are probably under as much surveillance walking down O'Connell St in Dublin than you would be in China, but the Chinese version get's more publicity. And negative publicity or not,,,,they have big plans for the world with their "Silk Road Initiative " and we have seen with Covid-19 just how vulnerable the world is and dependant on China. No, I would not like to live in a Chinese dominated world either.

Mr. Karate

Mr. Karate wrote: »

Eventually will have to tell the UN, NGOs ,etc to go pound sand and we have a right the deport immigrants who can't/won't behave in out Countries. And these bleeding hearts can go with them if they so desire.

People will only tolerate this for so long as history as shown us over the years.

Western people have never been conditioned to the point that they are today. If you ever study marketing and psychology, you can see the extent that the media, governments, and general education have conditioned the behavior and responses of people in ways that weren't really effective before in history.

I see it in China.. they've had thousands of years of conditioning through culture. The PRC being a more recent addition to the mix, and generally less effective as people become more aware of the world around them. However, with westerners, the opposite strategy is being used. By being so aware of the world, and by being bombarded by information all the time, those with the skills can influence the way people think and behave. Predictive algorithms for human interactions mixed with advanced AI is very capable of estimating the responses of groups. Not so much the individual, but we live in a new world of mob thought.

Social media encourages hive minds or mob thinking. Even alone, we are connected to others through social media, and so very open to being influenced. Besides due to education, modernisation, and the belief in the superiority of western living standards, people tend to think they're culturally superior than others, which makes them easier to manipulate. And people are often extremely easy to manipulate especially where their emotions are engaged.... and we have a modern reality where people are outraged by some much. Drama is everywhere.

Rather than ramble on, I'll end with "don't be too sure". There's something more going on with the rise of extremist groups in Europe, since it just increases the overall power of the governments. Not going to say more since it's more suitable to the conspiracy forums (which I never go to), but Western nations have changed a lot in my lifetime, and people are much less free than they used to be. People have far less actual power to influence what governments do, and in most nations, governments have reduced the actual power of the electorates... So.. TBH, I, and many other expats, feel that Western countries aren't going to fix these problems because these problems serve to establish power for certain groups.

jmreire

jmreire wrote: »

Yes agreed 100%,,,you are probably under as much surveillance walking down O'Connell St in Dublin than you would be in China, but the Chinese version get's more publicity. And negative publicity or not,,,,they have big plans for the world with their "Silk Road Initiative " and we have seen with Covid-19 just how vulnerable the world is and dependant on China. No, I would not like to live in a Chinese dominated world either.

TBH I feel the same about any superpower... The US dominant would actually be worse, considering just how much their politics and morals have shifted. The Chinese care about their public image and actually do respect success in others. Americans, on the other hand, once convinced of their superiority can do horrendous things in the name of a righteous cause.

In any case, China won't be a true threat for another twenty years. They're not as stable internally as many westerners believe, and the population isn't near as controlled either. They've just got too much internal baggage to deal with. They're a threat to Asia, but... right now, Japan and S.Korea allied with India could seriously hurt them without US support. And China knows this. The Chinese are many things but they're not entirely stupid. Illogical by western standards, but not stupid.

jmreire

Mr. Karate wrote: »

If you're a Man and your Country is a warzone wouldn't you get your family the hell out of there first?

Nothing to do with being a man or not..it's all about what's possible. And its easier for a single man to "escape" than with a family. Afterward's he can maybe arrange for his Family to join him. But the longer he remains in Syria, the less chance he has of getting out.

2u2me

Deleted User wrote: »

TBH I feel the same about any superpower... The US dominant would actually be worse, considering just how much their politics and morals have shifted. The Chinese care about their public image and actually do respect success in others. Americans, on the other hand, once convinced of their superiority can do horrendous things in the name of a righteous cause.

The US may lock up immense amounts of people for taking drugs and commiting petty crimes, but the Chinese lock people up for thinking the wrong way.

There is reflection in the US system that the Chinese lack. They prefer to dismiss that it never happened.

2u2me

2u2me wrote: »

The US may lock up immense amounts of people for taking drugs and commiting petty crimes, but the Chinese lock people up for thinking the wrong way.

You really believe that the US government hasn't locked people up for more than "provable" terrorism? How many suspected terrorists were sent to Guantanamo Bay over the last decade? Or any number of "Off the Book" detention centers around the world?

Guantanamo Bay was intentionally set up to bypass US law... and that was the public face of it. There are just too many reports over the years of other activities by intelligence services. The NSA is unlikely to be the only Intelligence service that operates completely off the radar.

There are so many double standards in the world today. Smoke and mirrors. We cling to the belief that western countries will be better than other nations, such as China, but, in reality, how far does that really extend?

There is so much more going on than what is being reported, and being made known to the public. We complain about the media being biased... The internet is swamped with misinformation of all kinds...

Perhaps I've had a few too many beers tonight but I feel that westerners are living too much in the past with regards to the changes within western culture and politics. People don't want to face that the political and cultural landscape has dramatically changed.

There is reflection in the US system that the Chinese lack. They prefer to dismiss that it never happened.

Actually, I'd say that they're both quite similar. Incredibly corrupt, with the rich having carche blanche, and the poor being treated pretty badly. The only difference is that China isn't particularly good at hiding what it does... the US is far better, although the lies are starting to shine through at the edges. Don't get me as some kind of defender of China... I'm not. I just don't see the US, in it's modern state, as being much better.

In any case, this isn't really about the topic.. We can discuss these kind of things on another thread if you want.

ILoveYourVibes

This has kind of gone off the point.

ARH privilege

RyanthePirate wrote: »

I would like to see a Boards.ie Consensus.

Economists agree that immigration has a net positive on the economy and this immigration is surely a wonderful thing for the county.

Agree/Disagree?

"Economists agree that immigration has a net positive..." Yes absolutely. I saw a documentary movie about. Shortly the average age in some countries , currently "having problem" with immigration is around 46. If that info is correct ... after 2-3 decades there will be more pensioners there that workers. What will/should be happen with these countries budgets ?! How they gona finance themselves!? Should they "lockdown" or "close"... When I am retired, how the state will pay my pension?! if there are no people working and paying taxes... Why I am mention all these : immigrants are usually people who left their countries, looking for better life. For some better life is : better car , for some - own house, for other holiday in Hawaii , education for kids, etc.etc. and in order to achieve all these they are aware that have to work. Working they pay taxes so the both sides are satisfied . Country receive more taxes, improving citizens life - immigrant, its better life

ExMachina1000

I wouldn't like to see Ireland end up like France, Sweden, Belgium or parts of the UK.

Immigration is fine and welcome when the people are of a somewhat similar culture. Eastern European immigration into Ireland has been a great thing for the country. They are hard workers, similar culture etc etc.
Many businesses like hotels ,shops, construction companies wouldn't be able to operate without immigration.

I'm not convinced that immigration from strict Muslim countries and African countries is a positive to Ireland though.

Again I wouldn't like to see Ireland turn out like some other European countries. We have a pretty good thing going here in Ireland.
Let's not ruin it. If not for our sake then for future generations

Wibbs

ARH privilege wrote: »

"Economists agree that immigration has a net positive..." Yes absolutely. I saw a documentary movie about. Shortly the average age in some countries , currently "having problem" with immigration is around 46. If that info is correct ... after 2-3 decades there will be more pensioners there that workers. What will/should be happen with these countries budgets ?! How they gona finance themselves!? Should they "lockdown" or "close"... When I am retired, how the state will pay my pension?! if there are no people working and paying taxes... Why I am mention all these : immigrants are usually people who left their countries, looking for better life. For some better life is : better car , for some - own house, for other holiday in Hawaii , education for kids, etc.etc. and in order to achieve all these they are aware that have to work. Working they pay taxes so the both sides are satisfied . Country receive more taxes, improving citizens life - immigrant, its better life

Nope. Might apply in some other European countries, it does not apply to Ireland. That this "fact" keeps being trotted out in the face of actual reality here in Ireland tells you the level of widespread BS we're being peddled.

Me. Earlier. wrote: »

Oh its a point often raised in relation to this push for diversity W. A couple of problems with it, one local, the other more European wide.

The local one is that unlike the majority of other EU nations Ireland has a growing population and the highest birthrate in the EU. We quite simply don’t have the demographic shift or anything like it of the rest. We're not running out of our locals anytime soon. And yet that argument has been wheeled out here. Either through dishonesty, laziness in repeating the same catechism, or stupidity, or all of the above. This kinda illustrates the same “diversity” hymn sheet is being sung from by all who push this politic.

More mainland European wise, for all the talk of open EU borders and we're all Europeans together, you hear little talk of trying to encourage trained and educated Europeans from other EU states with unemployment problems to ones with more opportunities. No German companies setting up employment fairs in Portugal or Greece or Spain, or reporting on them if they exist. Oh no, let's bring in non EU, non Europeans, many if not most who don't have the qualifications and come from quite different cultures into the place to shore up the gaps.

Plus while legal immigrants work and contribute and only get in here if they show they can and do, illegal and quasi legal immigrants have higher unemployment rates, which in turn is a burden on the social welfare and tax system. In existing multicultural European nations which demographics are more likely to be unemployed and pay fewer taxes? We've already got an underclass, we don't need to import more and import more social unbalance along ethnic and racial lines with it.

ArchXStanton

Mr. Karate wrote: »

Until they're willing to start mass deporting this crowd France is dead. The big questions are can the French hold on until 2022 and actually elect someone who will stop this destruction and will France be worth saving by then?

Last time Le Pen was within a sniff, Puppet boy Macron appeared out of nowhere with his little En Marche posse and immediately became a media darling...

Slowyourrole

Deleted User wrote: »

Yeah.. but how are they free to do so, and who would leave their family in a warzone while they travel, and get processed? Would you leave your wife and children in a warzone, while you go through the overall application process (months in addition to traveling and appeals)?

Human nature is to be more sympathetic to women and children, so it actually makes more logic to send them first.

In any case, in a warzone, males (adults and teens) will be conscripted by one side or another, so how are these young men free to travel?

That's what makes them refugees. They have to get out or they'll be dragged into the war. And while I'm sure it is hard to leave family behind, it's much easier to make the journey and get established then bring them over safely to a better life. It's really a no win situation. I've seen plenty of people criticising people bringing children on these journeys (look at the US southern border threads) and also making the same argument you just have.

Slowyourrole

Slowyourrole wrote: »

That's what makes them refugees. They have to get out or they'll be dragged into the war. And while I'm sure it is hard to leave family behind, it's much easier to make the journey and get established then bring them over safely to a better life. It's really a no win situation. I've seen plenty of people criticising people bringing children on these journeys (look at the US southern border threads) and also making the same argument you just have.

Ahh well, I'm not actually making an argument, because it's the role of the State to investigate their claims, and ensure that their background information clears. Personally, I find it extremely suspicious, and I hope the departments concerned with such checks, are paying close attention, and erring on the side of caution about who gets in. Simple enough.

olestoepoke

Slowyourrole wrote: »

That's what makes them refugees. They have to get out or they'll be dragged into the war. And while I'm sure it is hard to leave family behind, it's much easier to make the journey and get established then bring them over safely to a better life. It's really a no win situation. I've seen plenty of people criticising people bringing children on these journeys (look at the US southern border threads) and also making the same argument you just have.

No war in Nigeria, Pakistan, Bangladesh and many more.

endacl

cfuserkildare wrote: »

A slightly blinkered view isnt it?


Ask yourself a quick question,


What is the second most spoken language in Ireland at the moment?

Corkonian?