What are your views on Multiculturalism in Ireland? - Threadbanned User List in OP
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There are similarities and differences with those bombings, but long story short, yes, when you allow people to settle in your country and those people blow your children to pieces, then yes, you failed.
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To be fair, the point of mentioning the IRA is to compare like with like, extremist examples that don’t represent the norm, with extremist examples that don’t represent the norm. The point being that it’s a ridiculous argument to try and argue the extremes of anything as though they are representative of the norm.
Can’t speak for anyone else but I don’t imagine it’s at all unusual that people would gravitate towards people who they share things in common with, I have friends across the globe in other countries, we share similar interests and attitudes, a number of us work (or used to work) in similar professions too. I’m not about to turn around and tell them we can’t be mates any more because we’re not from the same country.
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You can't compare the IRA, ETA, even PLO, etc with modern al qeada and most especially ISIS.
IRA, ETA, PLO etc had a particular territorial dispute or self determination at the root of their cause.
ISIS and their modern islamist fellow travellers dispute is that we are not all something like wahhabist sunni muslims and are not willing to submit to their ideology.
Oh yes they may claim it is because of western interference in Muslim countries, but they showed their true colours in Syria/Iraq when they gained control.
From what I can recollect the Al-Shabaab attackers of the Westgate shopping centre in Kenya in 2013 asked people whether or not they were good muslims.
I really fail to understand how you and others continually try and lessen the threat of islamist fundamentalist terrorism by towing this line that they are the same as all the terrorists that went before.
Why can't people admit that islamist terrorism is a huge issue for the Western world and our way of life and much more so than any of the old terrorist organisations of the past?
You cannot placate the modern islamist threat unlike what used to termed freedom fighters to one side and terrorists to the other.
Their endgame is the end of our way of life, our history, our freedoms that we have hard won particularly over the last century.
Submission to them is their goal.
I am not allowed discuss …
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The reason I don’t imagine Middle Eastern terrorism is a significant threat to Western society is really as simple and straightforward as I’m not given to blowing things out of proportion. All the various groups you mention are all comparable on the same basis - they’re terrorists. Their motivations are irrelevant, it doesn’t excuse their behaviour. There’s no such thing as far as I’m concerned as “Terrorists nowadays, they’re not like they used to be”, as if any terrorists ever had any regard for human life. They’re no different than the terrorists who went before them, regardless of whatever country they’re from or whatever their ideology.
You’re honestly the first person I’ve ever known has accused anyone of wanting to placate terrorists, like anyone actually has any interest in placating terrorists. I have about as much interest in living in an Islamic State as I do in living in a constant state of fear induced by the existential threat of Islam coming over the horizon perpetuated by people who make declarations about the “other sides” aim being to end our way of life, our freedoms that we have “hard-won” particularly over the last century, like you’re expecting anyone to overlook the two world wars that have taken place in the last century. They weren’t fighting for anyones freedom, they were killing people because they were young and idealistic and had been indoctrinated with the belief that what they were doing was righteous and virtuous and all the rest of it.
Our freedoms and rights didn’t come about as a result of fighting, they came about because the majority of people were simply sick of politicians playing “you sunk my battleship!” instilling in young people a deep distrust of other people, like it was other people who were a greater threat than the politicians who sent them to their deaths, over land and resources and control of whole empires, not quite the romanticised nonsense you’re trying to use to distinguish between what in your terms are “freedom fighters”, and “modern terrorists”.
I wouldn’t encourage anyone to entertain the nonsense idea that it’s people “over there” are a threat to their way of life, and they’re being offered protection in the form of restricting peoples freedoms. What has historically always happened in that scenario is that the people claiming they’re only protecting anyones way of life is that they’ve invented the threat, and they’re offering the solution to a problem they invented.
I’m not seeing the difference between submission to your ideology and the price anyone has to pay for it, versus submission to the ideology you’re claiming is the greatest existential threat to Western democracy, which was only achieved when politicians agreed to stop making everyone’s lives miserable, and came up with the Universal Declaration of Human Rights.
I’d rather live by the principles enshrined in that document than live in constant fear and paranoia about the next perceived threat to Western civilisation. The concept, or the value, of Western civilisation means nothing if we can so easily choose to forego the principles upon which Western civilisation is founded at times when it’s actually required of us to be even more mindful of them. You don’t preserve a way of life by attempting to extinguish anyone you perceive as a threat, there’s a far greater chance of you ending up dead before your numerous imagined enemies. You demonstrate by way of example WHY your way of life is better, and acknowledge that by your own standards, people have the freedom to make that decision for themselves. If you truly believe your way of life is better than theirs, whether they agree with you or not shouldn’t bother you.
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Dunno who these some people are because most Irish people would be aware that the majority of immigrants into Ireland came from Eastern Europe, and so, were White.
And if you look at immigration patterns for Sweden over three decades, they would have been similar, in that the majority of immigrants came from Eastern Europe/Russia (which they were concerned about due to their worries about Russian influence), along with a rather significant Asian immigrant population. However, later, mostly in the last decade, the demographics have shifted considerably with a much greater percentage of immigrants coming from the M.East and Africa. (the same happening throughout Europe, including Ireland.. and is expected to increase due to how unstable both the M.East and African nations are)
TBH I've never really seen any poster come close to claiming that multiculturalism is solely about brown or Muslims (Don't see the need for Jihadist to be used there). I do, however, often see the concerns of posters about immigrants from Africa or the M.East, and yes, there are concerns about Islam/Muslims. Valid concerns, considering the range of problems that have cropped up over the last two decades across Europe. Not just in one nation, but happening across all European nations, once the modern multiculturalist honeymoon period (roughly a decade or two) has passed.
The lack of integration or assimilation is an issue, for countries like Sweden which traditionally had strong national/cultural identities, and the issues with unemployment (when the native unemployment is at 3% and the foreign born is at 15%, that's a worthy concern). Crime is naturally also a valid concern, when you get reports of increased severity of violent crime, and bombings. Along with the effects on the national economy, either due to the drain on resources to provide for immigrants, or the added costs of reacting to the emerging problems. It's all connected, and should be considered rather than sitting in a circle shouting "Multiculturalism is wonderful".
I've repeatedly said that I would like to see successful multiculturalism, where the host nations culture remains dominant and other cultures are encouraged to be shared. A society that focuses on providing migrants with the tools needed to be educated and gainfully employed... but at the same time, a zero tolerance approach to the wasters and dangerous elements that do exist abroad, and who do want to take advantage of our societies.
If you're interested in discussing the issues involved, I'm game. However, I'd ask you to recognise the very real downsides of multiculturalism (as it has been implemented so far), and the problems with immigration.. not from a Utopian dream perspective, but with appreciation for the limited resources that all nations are bound by.
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Not Directed at you:
I'm not really going to be getting involved with the overall thread discussion, and I'm going to be avoiding certain posters, because I don't have the patience anymore.
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I don't believe you have any Swedish friends.
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"Our freedoms and rights didn’t come about as a result of fighting" - Jesus wept.
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How in the world would an Irish person know not just one, but several policemen in Sweden? The very same types will tell you about all the LGBT Muslim friends that they have. I've actually meet a Muslim Pakistani lad recently, who's a sound lad, but lets just say that he doesn't have much time for sodomy or any acts like that.
“The man who lies to himself can be more easily offended than anyone else. You know it is sometimes very pleasant to take offense, isn't it? A man may know that nobody has insulted him, but that he has invented the insult for himself, has lied and exaggerated to make it picturesque, has caught at a word and made a mountain out of a molehill--he knows that himself, yet he will be the first to take offense, and will revel in his resentment till he feels great pleasure in it.”-― Fyodor Dostoevsky, The Brothers Karamazov9 -
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Perhaps an Irish person who worked in a Muslim country, with many other nationalities?
One that also did not move to Ireland until nearly a teenager.
One that has lived in other countries.
Do you think all Irish people are from ballygobackwards?I
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What Muslim country? Didn't you say Bosnia before? A country known for being very mild on the Islamic scale. Where did you meet all these Swedish policemen that you've kept in contact with then? I'd know maybe two Gardaí or so in a close enough capacity, yet you seem to know many police from another nation? None of this adds up, and quite frankly I think much of it is not true, and that it's simply used for ideological purposes alone.
Anyway, the LGBT bit wasn't just about yourself, many progressive posters have said the same. I've known a handful of Muslims in my life and I'm an active and social person, yet progressives seem to know many of them, and they are all somehow gay and progressive Muslims.
“The man who lies to himself can be more easily offended than anyone else. You know it is sometimes very pleasant to take offense, isn't it? A man may know that nobody has insulted him, but that he has invented the insult for himself, has lied and exaggerated to make it picturesque, has caught at a word and made a mountain out of a molehill--he knows that himself, yet he will be the first to take offense, and will revel in his resentment till he feels great pleasure in it.”-― Fyodor Dostoevsky, The Brothers Karamazov10 -
Do you think all Irish people are from ballygobackwards?
And as usual, Irish man bad and backwards.
“The man who lies to himself can be more easily offended than anyone else. You know it is sometimes very pleasant to take offense, isn't it? A man may know that nobody has insulted him, but that he has invented the insult for himself, has lied and exaggerated to make it picturesque, has caught at a word and made a mountain out of a molehill--he knows that himself, yet he will be the first to take offense, and will revel in his resentment till he feels great pleasure in it.”-― Fyodor Dostoevsky, The Brothers Karamazov11 -
no I didn't say Bosnia. I'm not planning on writing my life story here, I don't lie, I have no reason to. Why would I not know police from other countries? Do you think that no Irish people are friends with people from other countries?
As with all nationalities and religions, some people are gay. Are you somehow suggesting that they are not?
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It actually explains a lot, posters don't believe that Irish people can live in other countries and be friends with other nationalities 😂
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I don't want your life story, I simply want you to explain how you have so many of these unlikely connections, to understand how credible your views are.
Yes some people are gay, where in the world did you see me say anything about people not being gay? I've said it before on here, but arguing with certain posters is like arguing against a hallucination that they've had. They tell you you've said things you haven't said, or even implied, and make you argue against their delusion. It's all so tiresome, but maybe that's the point?
Anyway, this new site is terrible, it's missing most of the many basic functions that once existed, all in the name of progress. It's ironically analogous to the modern world.
“The man who lies to himself can be more easily offended than anyone else. You know it is sometimes very pleasant to take offense, isn't it? A man may know that nobody has insulted him, but that he has invented the insult for himself, has lied and exaggerated to make it picturesque, has caught at a word and made a mountain out of a molehill--he knows that himself, yet he will be the first to take offense, and will revel in his resentment till he feels great pleasure in it.”-― Fyodor Dostoevsky, The Brothers Karamazov12 -
And there we go again.
The very fact you don't see islamist terrorism and being a much worse prospect that any of the old Freedom fighters/terrorists looking for self determination or territorial gains isd the usual stance adopted by our so called modern enlightened ones.
The first steps to solving a problem is recognising you have one and understanding it.
And as for this shyte that our freedoms and rights didn't come about through fighting.
FFS.
How did the country of Ireland come into being in the first place?
Was it through the good graces of our masters in Westminister?
Was it fook.
Western democracy and it's associated freedoms were saved through the blood of millions in the second world war.
Granted the irony is many of the millions dying were fighting to keep another tyrannical ideology, soviet communism, in power, but indirectly they saved what we had created already in Western Europe.
And yes it mightn't have been perfect, it might have been dominated by classes, had been discriminatory to a fair degree, and in some places dominated by what would now be seen as right wing christian ideology, but it was a fooking hell or a lot better than the alternatives out there at the time.
And it was the basis for what we enjoy today.
Of course you will probably counter about the EU/EEC where Europeans learned to live together and push social changes throughout most of Europe, but you only had the EEC/EU because of the blood sacrifice of WWII.
BTW I didn't differentiate old terrorists as freedom fighters and new terrorists as bad, even though that is the slant you are pushing.
Some called the old terrorists freedom fighters depending on which side of the fence you were on.
They were all terrorists, but I have enough cop on to realise you could reason somewhat with an Irish IRA or Basque ETA member and offer them something somewhat realistic to placate them.
What can you offer to an ISIS member besides your life and total submission?
And I see you resorting to the usual claptrap about leading by example and showing these people how we are so much better.
That is the usual arrogance where you believe if only you take Mohamed, Abdul or Abbas into you country, show them your wonderful life that they will suddenly forget everything they have ever believed, everything they have ever learned and suddenly be out marching in a pride parade or allowing their wife out in a short skirt.
All through history ways of life have to be protected, ultimately by use of force.
Our way of life is doomed if we have idiots on the inside pi***g in the tent.
I am not allowed discuss …
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Really? but you are pretty quick off the mark when it comes to insinuating other posters are.
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Welcome back Klaz, you were sorely missed......🙂, and I could not agree more with your comments about engaging ( or not) with certain posters.
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Our way of life is doomed if we have idiots on the inside pi***g in the tent.
It's doomed because few people want to acknowledge the differences between the various cultural groups and recognise that those differences were established through a variety of processes that are no longer in favor today.
Wealth/prosperity destroyed traditional Ireland through the Celtic Tiger, and everything that followed it... along with the very "modern" attitude of implementing change without consideration for what's supposed to replace it. TBH, I wouldn't be considering immigrants as being the biggest threat to Irish or European societies, but rather the impact of American thought in education, psychology, social sciences, etc.
The biggest danger to our way of life is coming from another western culture. I do agree that there are dangers involved due to immigration. The rising populations of foreign born groups, and the decline of the historically native populations (in comparison to each other) is a problem for the future, especially when it concerns cultural groups whose values and perspectives are so different from our own. Although, I hold out hope that the rather hefty Eastern European populations will counteract those other influences. But. But... the real danger is coming from our politicians, the media, and those progressive thinkers who rush to implement change, and are only there to"manage" the negative aspects of those changes after. The death of common sense and responsibility/accountability is, IMHO, a reality in most Western nations, and that reflects the changes in our societies over the last three decades, or more.
So... honestly, I'd say that you're already facing the end of your way of life , and it's not due to Islamic or other similar foreign influence. It's developing into something new... and I suspect it'll be something that is self-destructive, leading to a much more painful series of changes within the next 30 years.
:D
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Oh I do agree that the polarisation of viewpoints, the touting of thoughts and feelings over facts, the slants adopted in media and educational establishments that has originated in the US and has made it's way in particular into our country and our nearest neighbour, has changed our society already.
It is just a continuation of our long exposure to US media and popular cultural influences that has been happening to Ireland over the last number of decades.
What was the old comment about looking to Boston rather than Berlin.
My point above was that large scale unfethered immigration, i.e. the asylum seekers/refugees, into Europe is going to have drastic consequences in the decades to come.
And yes the ones cheerleading it are the very ones that have already fallen under the influence of thinking originating in the US.
The youth of today are in for one hell of a shock at some stage in the future.
Something that I experienced recently that reminds me of this was the way some of our teenagers and young adults now think and view the world.
The evening Christian Eriksen collapsed on the pitch and as the match was suspended, 17 year old and 20 year old inlaws were on about how they would have to cancel the tournament if he died.
I said they couldn't do that and that yes Denmark probably pulls out, but the show would go on.
I even reminded them how I have seen rally's or motor races continue even though someone has died during the event.
They thought that shocking and replied how times have changed and we are now more sensitive.
I am not allowed discuss …
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My point above was that large scale unfethered immigration, i.e. the asylum seekers/refugees, into Europe is going to have drastic consequences in the decades to come.
It's already happening in France, Sweden and Denmark.. so it's likely to happen here soon.
And yes the ones cheerleading it are the very ones that have already fallen under the influence of thinking originating in the US.
Pretty much, and they've embraced the nothing to see here attitude too. A "minority" group is chosen to be championed (for example, African Americans).. disregarding the racism directed by African Americans towards Hispanics and Asians. Once a group is chosen, they can't do any wrong, and won't be held responsible, in any practical manner, for how their own culture has evolved... Instead, the negatives are caused and reinforced by external sources, and the victim mentality is embraced.
We'll see it here in a broader sense when it comes to Black people, although it started decades ago with our Traveller population, but it'll be extended to any non-native (historically/genetically native) group.
TBH When I began to struggle to be specific by using the term Irish or Irish people, that's when I knew that our traditional society had ended. (For those who don't understand the reference, consider Bubblypops posts on what it means to be an Irish person... and just how broad it's become)
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I get the feeling a lot of the educated Africans in Ireland, once they get the citizenship here, tend to move to the UK if they can.
I don't think they have all that much loyalty to Ireland or even consider themselves Irish. This is why the gangstas in Balbriggan and Kildare tend to talk like they are from Sarf London ya get me blud.
I have zero evidence to prove this, it's just an opinion based on observations and anecdotal evidence. I expect in the next few years some bright spark will have some statistical evidence to support this.
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They tawk like their from Souf London because many of them ARE from South London. They were raised there by families that gave the UK asylum system their best shot and then, like a significant number of their ilk here, found themselves on their last appeal or learned that they stand a substantially better chance of being offered a passport (that will give them legal re-entry into the UK), a gaff and a very generous social welfare rate in Ireland and hopped on a ferry to NI and travelled down South from there.
What really baffles me is the fact that werever you arrive from in Africa, they all appear to wind up, culturally speaking, living in South Central LA. Gangsta rap was a mistake.
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I've even seen that trend in my town of jeans hanging down around there knees and boxers nearly fully exposed and them skully bandana things on their heads that's like a Cape off the back of their head....looks so odd in Ireland
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Looks odd everywhere. You can see Asian young people sometimes doing it too, including the women, which is often quite funny to see. People trying too hard to be noticed. Shame about the tattoos that tend to come with it though. Reminds me of the Goths tbh. Assuming an attitude, and appearance which affected behavior, while objecting that they were marginalsed or people were mean to them. Meh.
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(gangsta) rap was meant to be a protest, a way to bring awareness to and speak against this lifestyle, and not something to be applied into their own reality. Unfortunately it mutated into a garbage that does the exact opposite.
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Gangsta rap was a protest? Did you read that in the Guardian or something?
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What do you think Fu*k Tha Police is about, if not racial profiling and harrassment??
Fuck the police comin' straight from the underground
A Young nigga got it bad 'cause I'm brown
And not the other color so police think
They have the authority to kill a minority
Fuck that ****, 'cause I ain't the one
For a punk motherfucker with a badge and a gun
To be beatin' on, and thrown in jail
We can go toe-to-toe in the middle of a cell
Fuckin with me 'cause I'm a teenager
With a little bit of gold and a pager
Searchin' my car, lookin' for the product
Thinkin' every nigga is sellin' narcotics
You'd rather see me in the pen
Than me and Lorenzo rollin' in the Benzo
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I think it's the idea of protesting the discrimination and state of living in the US as an African American. Highlighting the lifestyle that people were forced into.
I don't listen to much rap, but a lot of the older stuff that I do remember (vaguely) did reference the problems of absent fathers, discrimination, limited opportunities, etc. All of which could be considered some kind of protest.. although in reality, the music did seek to elevate drug sellers, pimps and murderers as being something special.
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