What are your views on Multiculturalism in Ireland? - Threadbanned User List in OP

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118278358#Comment_118278358

Its not at all different, just worse.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118278861#Comment_118278861

Nope. Still different.

' people who have grown up in poverty or near to it, are more than likely to leap at a chance to suck at a free nipple if they can get away with it'

You did state it before of course, was it something like.....children from lower socio economic groups will never amount anything? Will grow up exactly like their parents?

The first says that people who grow up in poverty, have an increased chance of continuing to accept welfare supports if they can. The concept/belief in Intergenerational welfare dependency is pretty common throughout the world...

Which is not the same as saying that "children from lower economic groups will never amount to anything". I'm not going to break it down into parts and explain each component, or try to justify the difference... because I shouldn't need to.

It's obvious that the statements are completely different.

One eyed Jack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118279044#Comment_118279044

The wording is different, the sentiment, or the implication is the same - we shouldn’t encourage immigration because they’re more likely to end up at the bottom of the socioeconomic ladder as evidenced by immigration in other countries. But you’ll still claim you’ve not said anything about social class, even though you’re well aware of the concept or belief in social mobility.

If you didn’t have a background in economics, and you hadn’t travelled the world, I’d have absolutely made allowances for the possibility that you’re not familiar with the concept, but it’s not something you can agree or disagree with.

You’re well aware that immigrants who come here legally weren’t the people anyone was talking about, notwithstanding the fact that immigrants you’re using in your examples of enclaves in other European countries, you have no idea of their legal status, they’re just an additional problem, creating more problems, and according to you we have to fix our own problems first, and again if you didn’t have a background in economics I’d be far more lenient in pointing out the sheer stupidity of that point. It’s not a legitimate argument and you know it.

When your argument rests on “I didn’t need the supports, so they shouldn’t have them”, that’s saying two different things - one is you applying the argument to yourself, the other is you applying the same argument to people who aren’t you, who you know need the social supports in order to contribute to society.

Thankfully we don’t live in China, where it’s not just a person’s immigration status that determines their rights, but their birthplace within China, a society of a billion people which you’re suggesting we could take a leaf from in terms of how they are governed and what rights people are or aren’t entitled to.

For the love of God don’t do the usual round the houses nonsense of you didn’t say this and you didn’t say that and it’s not the same and I’m not considering context and all the rest of it - I am considering context, your arguments against providing support to illegal immigrants have no grounding in reality, particularly the one about our finite resources, considering what the State spends on direct provision.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118279740#Comment_118279740

The wording is different, the sentiment, or the implication is the same

It's not even remotely the same. The first says that the habits or reliance on welfare can be passed on to their children, and that people will likely take freebies if they can get away with it. I said it was very possible that this would happen, which is inaccurate, but the first part is definitely true, otherwise the concept of Intergenerational welfare dependency would have been easily disqualified long ago. It hasn't.

Bubblypops statement is an absolute. He claimed that I had said "children from lower socio economic groups will never amount anything". Which I didn't. The reference to the likelihood of children taking on welfare or freebies says nothing about a childs abilities or potential. It's twisting of a statement, and quite frankly, i'm a bit disappointed in your position of defending it. I probably shouldn't have been surprised that you decided to chip in, but I was. Lesson learned.

For all your talk about the manner of my posting, you're quite honestly full of it yourself. You refuse to deal with what's written as it is written. Grand.. we already covered that. You believe i'm vague, and slippery to deal with. Fine, we covered that. Hell, we covered a lot of your opinions before this, and agreed to let it go. And... here you are back again, soapboxing about my posts.. and while I could take it apart pointing out which parts aren't accurate to what I wrote... There's no fcking point, because no doubt you'll come back again, with the same statements/arguments, regardless of what I say.

So, no. I have no intention of being banned by mods for arguing over this, which is very possible since it doesn't relate to the thread. Although, in all honesty, I simply no longer respect your opinion, when you repeatedly extend standards to me which you have no intention of applying to yourself.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118279044#Comment_118279044

Oh its the same meaning, you're now trying to put it in much nicer more acceptable language of course, but it's obvious what you meant.

The Quintessence Model

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118280227#Comment_118280227

It isn't at all the same meaning.

One eyed Jack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118280192#Comment_118280192

You know as well as I do that you’re under no threat of a ban, you’ve been civil throughout this thread. I’ve no doubt both of us being middle-aged are a bit long in the tooth to claim any kind of sensitivity to robust argument.

The argument of the likelihood of a child growing up to avail of welfare supports is based upon their current socioeconomic status, and suggesting that they are more likely to avail of social supports as adults, IS implying that they will amount to nothing, or sucking in the States teat, or whatever.

I get the concept of intergenerational welfare dependency and nobody is arguing that it can so easily be disqualified, but one of the means to address it or interrupt it is to provide supports which enable social mobility, it’s why I said the focus should be on educating the children of illegal immigrants as opposed to resourcing means which make it more difficult for their parents to integrate into Irish society.

You want more stringent controls, and their implementation costs far more than it would cost to provide the children of illegal immigrants with educational supports with the aim of integrating second and third generations into Irish society, so that when they are actually adults, they are approaching the same opportunities for being able to provide for themselves as the natives, or the host nation, which is the standard you’re demanding to allow them to stay in the country - essentially that they can provide for themselves. I don’t just want them to provide for themselves, I want them to be in a position to contribute to the economy.

In this case it just happens to be illegal immigrants we’re talking about, but I’d say the same of any group in Irish society who are on the bottom rung of the socioeconomic ladder. The State already provides free primary education, so it’s a bit rich to listen to you saying that you didn’t need social supports - you’ve never NOT had them, and in adulthood you’ve never needed them. There’s a difference I shouldn’t need to explain between knowing you didn’t need social support, and knowing you couldn’t avail of it due to your immigration status. I feel pretty stupid having to make that point when I know you’re well aware of it already.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118280323#Comment_118280323

Oh really?

Can you please discuss how it isnt?

The Quintessence Model

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118281423#Comment_118281423

Klaz has already done so.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118283508#Comment_118283508

Lol, he tried to make it sound better by changing language to something more agreeable. Sentiment remains the same. If

Anyway, klaz is more then capable of arguing his own position, he hardly needs you backing up his opinions😂

enricoh

Now now klaz you can't say those things on here. What is the unemployment rate for travellers and Roma in Ireland around 90% iirc. Their offspring will be paying our pensions according to some on here so all's good!

The majority (80.2 per cent) of the 10,653 Travellers in the labour force are unemployed. Almost one in eight (11.3 per cent) said they were unable to work due to a disability, almost three times the rate in the general population (4.3 per cent).

jmreire

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118285065#Comment_118285065

Yes, and as for Govt provided supports,( IE Education) they were paid for out of taxation. So taxpayers are not exactly getting something handed to them for nothing.

One eyed Jack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118286138#Comment_118286138

Taxpayers or not jm, the State provides for free primary and secondary education in Ireland, and the taxpayer is getting incredible value for money for the amount the Government actually spends on education -

https://whereyourmoneygoes.gov.ie/en/education/2018/

I used 2018 because the data for 2020 and 2021 would be skewed, due to current circumstances. The ballpark figure is about €10Bn annually.

It’s well worth the investment, because of the positive relationship between education and social mobility, and greater social mobility means in increasing the likelihood of children becoming adults who make a positive contribution to society -

https://magill.ie/society/equal-access-quality-education-key-social-mobility

Arguably, it also gets you a better class of tax dodger 🤔

https://www.farmersjournal.ie/farmers-named-among-list-of-tax-defaulters-666656

https://amp.rte.ie/amp/1228279/

rgossip30

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118261571#Comment_118261571

Those are documented.

rgossip30

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118275543#Comment_118275543

Back in the day getting a job was like finding gold sometimes it take years .

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118288301#Comment_118288301

The people are not 🙄

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118288370#Comment_118288370

Back in the day, is when?

In any case, in the past, i'd say it was easier to find work due to the lack of regulation. Nowadays a college degree or similar (same with technical licenses) is required for so many types of jobs.

Back in 2012:

“These signatures show support from the Irish Public to find a solution for an estimated 30,000 undocumented men, women and children living in Ireland” said Edel McGinley of MRCI.

https://www.atlanticphilanthropies.org/news/petition-shows-public-support-regularisation-undocumented-ireland

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118289117#Comment_118289117

The Migrant Rights Centre Ireland (MRCI) and supporters today presented the Minister for Justice’s Special Advisor with over 4000 signatures in support of the regularisation of undocumented migrants in Ireland.

4k is considered representative of the Irish Public? Nice of them to get the signatures from the MRCI and their supporters... as opposed to the average Irish person (with no involvement in the movement).

Wonder if they would have gotten as many signatures if they had asked Irish people in the street whether these illegals should be deported? And would they have acted upon that support for deportation...?

See the number, 30,000 back in 2012

It was 20 to 26k back in 2018

https://www.rte.ie/brainstorm/2018/1108/1009503-why-undocumented-migrants-should-be-given-a-legal-right-to-stay/

same in 2016

https://thecircular.org/six-facts-undocumented-migrants-ireland/

are the numbers just plucked out of the air, or deliberately doctored. Did they really drop and not go up?

Who keeps track of this other than the MRCI who have skin in the game

jmreire

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118289199#Comment_118289199

We badly need a system like the Swiss have. For a referendum on any subject, all is needed is 100'000 signatures. Now that is what I call giving people a say in their lives. But it will never happen unfortunately, because it would mean removing power from the Quangos and "advisors" that decide what our Govt should do.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118289457#Comment_118289457

Considering we don't even know how many people legally live in this country, then there is no way we know how many are actually here illegally.

rgossip30

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118288916#Comment_118288916

In the eighties obviously before your time .

Fandymo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118299146#Comment_118299146

These arguments always make me smile.

According to some people, Ireland was a wasteland pre-90s with no jobs, no facilities etc.

However, talk about lowering the pension or putting CPOs on houses that are too big for the elderly and we're told they worked their whole lives and built this country into what it is.

Which is it? Because it definitely can't be both.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118299146#Comment_118299146

Haha.. Yeah. I was a kind/teen in the 80s, although I have pretty clear memories of the time.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118299551#Comment_118299551

It certainly wasn't a wasteland. Economically, the policies of past governments were finally starting to bear fruit, along with the abolishing of practices which were incredibly unfair, like the attitude to women in the workplace. However, it was nothing like the remainder of Europe, like Belgium or France. I'd say it makes sense to compare Ireland to Portugal, in a way. Similar economies. Socially, though, it was a bit of a wasteland unless you loved the pub scene, were religious, or sporty. Wasn't much else going on. Ireland has changed massively over the last 40 years.

Potatoeman

The narrative has shifted as the Belarus border conflict has shown. The migrants are being filmed attacking border guards (previously not shown in the mainstream media) and reported as being infiltrated by extremists. Support has massively reduced and the spotlight is on the climate crisis. It just shows the short attention span people have these days.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118300262#Comment_118300262

I don't agree. The narrative shifted only because the Belarus crisis was politically driven, in that there were governments behind the push of migrants. When it comes to mainstream refugees, and other migrant groups, the media, and governments will continue the previous attitude. The issues with migrants crossing the Channel from France to Britain reinforces this, since the focus remains firmly away from their illegal status, but rather on the perception of them being victims, and deserving of help. With Britain being the bad guy for not helping out and accepting them.

But yes, people do have very short attention spans, and you can be sure that governments or NGOs will take advantage of that.

Potatoeman

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118300323#Comment_118300323

The question is now coming up in the media asking why are migrants risking their lives travelling from a safe EU country to the UK.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118300362#Comment_118300362

No, the question is "why do they have to risk their lives?". ie. it should be made easier and safer for them to do so. (not that they should follow established and legal ways of doing so)

Few people really care why migration is happening. They already know about the Syrian war, climate change in Africa, civil wars and genocides.... and few really care, because nothing will stop it from happening. It comes back to your comment about short attention spans. By making it easier for migrants to enter the UK or Europe, then, people don't need to think about the problem at all.

jmayo

Don't worry the media have not let migrants stories go.

Far from it.

This morning we were greeted to interview with local fire chief/police chief in Mexico talking about the truck crash that killed over 50 migrants.

Was great to try decipher translator over dub the spanish speaking Mexican on the radio.

A real WTF moment.

Would they have done as much if it was just 50 odd unlucky Mexican natives I wonder.

Then just checked RTE website and hey presto on News section they have 3 articles about Afghans in Ireland.

Must keep reminding us.