What are your views on Multiculturalism in Ireland? - Threadbanned User List in OP

ILoveYourVibes

Deleted User wrote: »

TBH, I'm not quite sure what you're saying here.. legislative imperative, huh?

In what way is it bs? That it doesn't work (the conditioning) or the idea that such a bias exists?

Have you ever been out with a person of color and noticed you get better treatment than them? I have.

Hamachi

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Elements of it are already here in Ireland.

"Unconscious/subconscious bias" is part of workshops which many HR group will 'encourage' their employees to partake of. Right now, its about how men are subconsciously sexist towards women, but within a short time, we'll probably see similar regarding racial groups.

The workshops do pretty much the same thing as your article. It seems laughable but i've done a lot of self-help workshops over the years, and met people who are extremely good at using NLP or psychology to elicit and more importantly establish anchoring states for emotions or even opinions... modern day conditioning....

Indeed. This ‘training’ has been in Ireland for quite a while. My employer requires us to take annual ‘Unconscious bias’ and ‘Check your privilege’ online training and workshops.

I take your point on NLP and the desired psychological outcomes this training attempts to imbue. However, it’s a box ticking exercise for most of my colleagues. Basically, get this rubbish over with and never think of it until next year.

In some ways, it’s actually counter-productive. The crude stereotypes actually start to irritate many people. The ‘baddies’ in this training are always white people, who need to be corrected by the morally superior POC. The caricature of the evil boss is always played by a white man. The characterization is so crude, it’s a running joke amongst my Irish colleagues. Meanwhile, colleagues from Eastern and Southern Europe are downright hostile to it.

It’s definitely here in Ireland, but it’s not generating the outcomes my employer intended. Then again, preaching to a 98% white workforce that they are implicitly biased and were born with the original sin of white privilege, is never going to end well.

Hamachi

ILoveYourVibes wrote: »

Have you ever been out with a person of color and noticed you get better treatment than them? I have.

Interesting. Was this your Indian friend, who likes to berate Irish people for their whiteness?

ILoveYourVibes

ILoveYourVibes wrote: »

Have you ever been out with a person of color and noticed you get better treatment than them? I have.

I've had two girlfriends from Africa, and both got treated far better than I did... but then, I'm an average looking male, and they're both gorgeous looking women...

I also date mostly Asian women (I assume they'd be considered POC), and again, no real difference in treatment except for the differences in how males/females are treated, especially attractive women who dress well... but then I've noticed you tend to see sexism or racism everywhere.

ThunbergsAreGo

Clarence Boddiker wrote: »

This is where we are now, this the kind of mindfcuk poisoning our childrens minds.
Totally depraved, beyond the beyonds in terms of (anti white) racism.

Heres what educate together plan on teaching when schools reopen.

"Hi, my name is Laura and I’m privileged“ – how many conversations start this way? Very few, if any, but they should"

"Acknowledge your privilege"

"If you are a white, settled, Irish person living in Ireland, you experience privilege, even though it may not seem like it or be immediately obvious"




https://www.educatetogether.ie/news/anti-racism-in-our-schools/

Jesus.... A life of a Nigerian teacher in Ireland is different to that of an Irish teacher in Ireland... Of course it is, just as it would be vice versa.

Pure brainwashing of kids....

Still we might get to spin up a few more NGOs out of this. We need more in this country to tackle the extreme progression our country has made in the last 20 years and tell us we are bad people.

Hamachi

Hamachi wrote: »

Indeed. This ‘training’ has been in Ireland for quite a while. My employer requires us to take annual ‘Unconscious bias’ and ‘Check your privilege’ online training and workshops.

I take your point on NLP and the desired psychological outcomes this training attempts to imbue. However, it’s a box ticking exercise for most of my colleagues. Basically, get this rubbish over with and never think of it until next year. .

Everything starts somewhere and processes need to be developed. There isn't (to my knowledge anyway) some "shadowy cabal" intent on creating, modifying and implementing this stuff. However, just as there was with marketing, psychology, etc a progression over time in how it adapts and changes to suit the purpose it's intended for. I dunno. I've heard some disturbing reports from friends who are managers in international corporations about these classes and "subconscious bias". Adults have the ability to be resistant gained through their own experiences. Little in the news about it, but what happens should it become used in schools? Worth considering, although it's not really a thing yet.

Beauty privilege is a thing. I've seen it often in work and in everyday life.

Deleted User

Deleted User wrote: »

Beauty privilege is a thing. I've seen it often in work and in everyday life.

We really should nip this "privilege" crap in the bud now.

Individuals have advantages over others. It could be beauty. It could be intelligence. It could be having financially successful parents. Or just being lucky at the right time in life.

The idea of privilege is an excuse for those who want to be victims, because victims are never responsible for their own situation. The causes are all external and beyond their control.

Every individual has advantages and disadvantages in their lives. Get over it. Identity. Change. Grow. Adapt. Achieve something greater than you currently are.

"Adversity causes some men to break; others to break records."
- William Arthur Ward

enricoh

ThunbergsAreGo wrote: »

Jesus.... A life of a Nigerian teacher in Ireland is different to that of an Irish teacher in Ireland... Of course it is, just as it would be vice versa.

Pure brainwashing of kids....

Still we might get to spin up a few more NGOs out of this. We need more in this country to tackle the extreme progression our country has made in the last 20 years and tell us we are bad people.

Hmm, time to rig up a one day course on this rubbish n make a few quid. Hire out a room in the local hotel and charge e89 + vat a head. Guest appearance with a couple of asylum spoofers to berate the delay in getting house and welfare.
Local hospital has over 1000 working in it, they spend money like water so I'll charge them double! Any company that doesn't sign up is racist - simple!

ThunbergsAreGo

enricoh wrote: »

Hmm, time to rig up a one day course on this rubbish n make a few quid. Hire out a room in the local hotel and charge e89 + vat a head. Guest appearance with a couple of asylum spoofers to berate the delay in getting house and welfare.
Local hospital has over 1000 working in it, they spend money like water so I'll charge them double! Any company that doesn't sign up is racist - simple!

Its stunning simple. If there isn't an industry for your make up degree then simple create one my guilt tripping people.

And the younger you start, the more money you can make.

"Toddler Privledge, understanding why your child is white and why this is a bad thing"

Then bring out a range of dolls devoid of whiteness, dying buy one, you are a racist = profit

ThunbergsAreGo

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Elements of it are already here in Ireland.

"Unconscious/subconscious bias" is part of workshops which many HR group will 'encourage' their employees to partake of. Right now, its about how men are subconsciously sexist towards women, but within a short time, we'll probably see similar regarding racial groups.

Complete box ticking exercise but between all the different biases likely keeps an extra person in HR in a job, bit on the side making sure promotion and rating quotas contain the right "mix".

Where a big enough problem does not exist, we will make one up or import it from America

ThunbergsAreGo

ThunbergsAreGo wrote: »

Complete box ticking exercise but between all the different biases likely keeps an extra person in HR in a job, bit on the side making sure promotion and rating quotas contain the right "mix".

Where a big enough problem does not exist, we will make one up or import it from America

In virtually every country that has embraced multiculturalism and encouraged migration, racial tensions have emerged as a result. It's easy to connect anger or concern over migration with racism.

The problem being that the lower and middle tax groups get squeezed to cover the costs associated with the unproductive side of migrants. Even with the productive migrants, they tend to have larger families, who in turn, place greater demands on state services, increasing the tax burden shared among the existing tax base. That generally raises concerns about migration, puts the attenton of the natives on migrants and because, these days, most migrants are POC (dunno why that term annoys me so much), racism is an automatic charge.

Anti-racism campaigns, and courses will arise naturally without importing problems from the US, or making it up ourselves, simply because we're already importing problems with our own immigration policies. There's no seriously researched plans for integration/assimilation, and little consideration for the historical conflicts already existing between different cultural groups. The focus is entirely not white people not accepting other cultures, but little attention is paid to those cultural groups who have their own conflicts (African tribal groups often have serious hatreds of each other).

In fact the opposite seems to be the aim. Rather than integrate/assimilate migrants, Europeans are expected to change to accommodate the wide range of cultural/religious groups who arrive here.... which will definitely raise friction from those who treasure their own cultures. Thus proving to activists that white people are racist, and need to be taught/conditioned otherwise.

[Deleted User]

[Deleted User] wrote: »

We really should nip this "privilege" crap in the bud now.

Individuals have advantages over others. It could be beauty. It could be intelligence. It could be having financially successful parents. Or just being lucky at the right time in life.

The idea of privilege is an excuse for those who want to be victims, because victims are never responsible for their own situation. The causes are all external and beyond their control.

Every individual has advantages and disadvantages in their lives. Get over it. Identity. Change. Grow. Adapt. Achieve something greater than you currently are.

"Adversity causes some men to break; others to break records."
- William Arthur Ward

I'm not advocating for the whole privilege nonsense. I'm pointing out that if we are going to be calling out white people or men then there are plenty of other areas where people have privilege. Wealth, health, personality, being born in 1st world, the lost goes on.

Deleted User

Deleted User wrote: »

I'm not advocating for the whole privilege nonsense. I'm pointing out that if we are going to be calling out white people or men then there are plenty of other areas where people have privilege. Wealth, health, personality, being born in 1st world, the lost goes on.

There's always been terms such as class privilege, but it was kept for the most part out of the public space.

Any use of the term privilege will encourage it's continued use. It's like the idea of anti-racism or anti-discrimination. Such measures simply ensures that what they're fighting against gets more attention, and invariably more support, than if it was dealt with quietly.

I'd like to see the use of white privilege stopped hard. That means removing the need to talk about any kind of privilege because it all amounts to the same thing. Double standards, and generalisations applied to a whole group of people rather than focusing on individuals.

I have to laugh sometimes. When I moved to China everyone talked about how collectivist a society the Chinese were, and how individualistic Western cultural groups were. I don't see it anymore. The West has become progressively more collectivist over the last two decades... boxing people into groups for designation.

MFPM

Wibbs wrote: »

Again sounds great and is a lofty goal. Sounds great, but show where it has worked. Why are we magically different? How will we avoid the multicultural flashpoints? Education? Hasn't worked so well elsewhere. If anything the fractures between different groups in Europe are getting worse, not better.

I would agree. Those who look different to the majority are almost always the focus of anti The Other stuff. And your cure for this? Education again? Magic? East Asian folks are also targets for similar and there many are the slurs available and yet they're more likely to be educated and employed and less likely to be involved in criminality and antisocial behaviour. How's that work?

So we're going for the full hand eh? Cool beans. And again how will this change things as much as you seem to believe? The UK has been trying this for decades. The US ditto. France in that mix too. Yet look at all the BLM protests going on. You'd think it would have settled down now, at least been better for those who look different. And yet in Europe and elsewhere in the western world, which demographic is most likely to be socially deprived, unemployed, subject to suspicion, many generations in, with passports that say they're American, British, French? White people, Yellow people or Black and Brown people?

As for lumping in racism and fear and aggression towards the other with homophobia and sexism. Seems like a good fit on the face of it. However the difference is that Homosexuality has been in and out of favour in different cultures across time, ditto for sexism, but that fear and aggression towards the other is present throughout history and societies. The other was either driven out, conquered, or absorbed wholesale into the dominant group, or did the same to the dominant group. Where multicultural societies worked well enough for the most part it was under hardline, even "right wing" to modern minds dominant imperial rule and even there they always had some pushback, pushback that was almost always met with force. QV China, Rome, The early Caliphate.

Oh racism is a big part of it. Lack of training and qualifications for available jobs another. There are quite the number of Black African(and Middle Eastern and South Asian) doctors and other medical staff in hospitals throughout the nation. All of whom came here legally. There are no issues with such immigration, but why do we want to import another underclass like the rest of "multicultural" Europe? We have our own local supply thanks.

East Asian folks are also targets for similar and there many are the slurs available and yet they're more likely to be educated and employed and less likely to be involved in criminality and antisocial behaviour. How's that work?

One could read that statement criminality and anti social behaviour primarily due to being Black....

Oh racism is a big part of it.

Finally!

but why do we want to import another underclass like the rest of "multicultural" Europe? We have our own local supply thanks.

The 'underclass' - what a classist take - send your best keep your dregs. You seem to be only interested in the benefits accrued by the recipient nation, lucky for past Irish generations the UK and the US didn't apply the same rigour. I'm happy to give people an opportunity to make a good life here as so many have irrespective of their education on arrival.

Brian Hartman

For those of you who want immigration, how do you propose keeping the dangerous migrants out? The terrorists, violent criminals etc?

MFPM

Wibbs wrote: »

Indeed and like I said above: Why do we want to import another underclass like the rest of "multicultural" Europe? We have our own local supply thanks. Why add to our existing problems by bringing in another and different and going on the rest of multicultural Europe set of seemingly intractable problems.

More classism...

Pre pandemic we had what is termed full employment, so if we removed all the 'underclass' migrants cleaning the toiltes and making the sandwiches the unemployment in those areas would drop, right?

On the 'underclass' the very nice Polish woman who cleans my workplace is a qualified accountant.

"multicultural" Europe

Pesky migrants causing all the problems....

MFPM

Brian Hartman wrote: »

For those of you who want immigration, how do you propose keeping the dangerous migrants out? The terrorists, violent criminals etc?

Go and look at the number of migrants who have been involved in terrorism.

Brian Hartman

MFPM wrote: »

Go and look at the number of migrants who have been involved in terrorism.

Muslim migrants have slaughtered hundreds of Europeans. Why weren't they kept out of Europe?

Hundreds, perhaps thousands, of German women were sexually assaulted by immigrants on nye. Why weren't they prevented from entering Europe?

The majority of rapes in Sweden are committed by third world migrants.

How will you keep the dangerous migrants out?

mick087

Yes you could say that migrants are positive on the economy.

The majority of migrants would have jobs that pay low wages or minimum wage.
They do these jobs because we are told Irish people dont wamt to do these sort of jobs.

We have to ask the question why do Irish people not want to do jobs like cleaning, security, farm work, hotel work etc.

I would say if these jobs paid a decent living wage with a work health scheme and was treated with respect and dignity in there jobs then you might find there would be more people from Ireland doing the jobs migrants are currently doing.

Its a myth to think Irish people are lazy and dont want to work, Irish people are workers but they realise when they are being exploited when asked to work like a dog for 10.10 an hour.

Eric Cartman

mick087 wrote: »

Yes you could say that migrants are positive on the economy.

The majority of migrants would have jobs that pay low wages or minimum wage.
They do these jobs because we are told Irish people dont wamt to do these sort of jobs.

We have to ask the question why do Irish people not want to do jobs like cleaning, security, farm work, hotel work etc.

I would say if these jobs paid a decent living wage with a work health scheme and was treated with respect and dignity in there jobs then you might find there would be more people from Ireland doing the jobs migrants are currently doing.

Its a myth to think Irish people are lazy and dont want to work, Irish people are workers but they realise when they are being exploited when asked to work like a dog for 10.10 an hour.

The jobs dont need to pay more, welfare needs to pay less.

EU migrants and asian migrants are positive for our economy , african, south american and middle eastern migrants are net detractors and have no business being allowed in

mick087

Eric Cartman wrote: »

The jobs dont need to pay more, welfare needs to pay less.

EU migrants and asian migrants are positive for our economy , african, south american and middle eastern migrants are net detractors and have no business being allowed in

Yes these jobs do need to pay more. These jobs are tough and the people who do them work hard, they are under valued unserpaid and in general treated quite bad.
I was once many years ago on welfare for a short time, it was not much then so i would say its not great now. I couldnt live on socail welfare.

EU and UK citizens have the right to work in Ireland.

Asian migrants, African, South american and Middle Eastern migrants If not refugee status would then have to follow the goverment guidlines.

Eric Cartman

Eric Cartman wrote: »

The jobs dont need to pay more, welfare needs to pay less.

Low end jobs get filled naturally. Look at any job site and you'll see such jobs disappear relatively quickly, same with ads posted up at the library job boards. There isn't a major lack of people willing to do these jobs... In my area, such jobs are still being taken by the college students nearby or the older students in secondary school, or... etc.

EU migrants and asian migrants are positive for our economy , african, south american and middle eastern migrants are net detractors and have no business being allowed in

I disagree. I know many people from Africa, M.East, and S.America who would be a benefit for any country... but then, they have the skills/education and clean criminal background to be a boon. And that's where the focus should be.

People who have the required skills to be easily employed (in whatever area, and the agencies should keep track of what positions are available. A database of jobs isn't hard to set up and maintain. Similar to the EURES portal) should be allowed in regardless of where they are from.

Naturally, anyone who has destroyed or has no documents to prove their skills should be denied entry. Same with anyone who claims educational qualifications but can't provide the supporting documentation or the state can't easily verify the existence of the qualifications (there are many ways to get fake or 'lesser' private type degrees abroad)

However, at the same time, everyone allowed in, should be required to sign a social contract which lays out requirements about acceptable behavior, and the desire for us that they integrate with the dominant culture. It's our country. Those who want in, should want to be here because they like how we live, not simply because we're economically successful. They fail to abide by the social contract, then they're expelled. Keep it simple.

mick087

mick087 wrote: »

Yes these jobs do need to pay more.

No, they don't. It's like how the minimum wage made it actually harder for many people to get work, because potential employers couldn't afford to pay for certain jobs. Increase the pay, and many jobs will disappear completely, only to be filled unofficially, off the books, etc. Giving people less protections overall.

Edit: Here's an example. All through my teens, every summer I'd cut turf in West Galway. Pay wasn't amazing, hard work, but I got plenty of work, and there were extra benefits thrown in to offset the lower pay. Now, those kind of jobs are essentially gone, because there's no profit anymore in hiring people to do it (it was never a money maker anyway for the organisers). Instead, it's done through family/friendship networks, but not advertised at all. So.. for anyone who wants work, that kind of work is completely off the table. And for teenagers, it used be damn good work (since it was good physical conditioning, and invariably you'd get introduced to the local girls ]

Wibbs

MFPM wrote: »

One could read that statement criminality and anti social behaviour primarily due to being Black....

Only a moron would. But again well done for completely avoiding all the other points. And again it seems the flag bearers for this politic simply can't address these obvious and consistent points across time. You have no answers only hopes, platitudes and vagueness. A common thread in the student socialist.

Finally!

Nope. You can ease off the self induced back slapping. I have always stated and quite clearly that racism is a major factor in the problems of multiculturalism. It's about the biggest one. The difference is I look to the sad realities of it, rather than hope that somehow this time it will be different because of vague Hail Mary notions like "education". The same notions that other nations have tried out for decades and yet here we are today with the same stuff going on. If anything the fractures are getting deeper.

The 'underclass' - what a classist take - send your best keep your dregs. You seem to be only interested in the benefits accrued by the recipient nation

Again only a moron wouldn't be interested in the benefits accrued by the recipient nation. Again there are those pesky things called realities at work. Is it "classist" for a university to have entry requirements? Is it "classist" for a business to have qualifications and experience requirements? Why should nations be any different? As has been pointed out we already have a demographic of Irish people who don't quite make the grade for whatever reasons, so why import more of the same?

lucky for past Irish generations the UK and the US didn't apply the same rigour.

Actually they did when it went beyond the basic need for unskilled labour and more bodies to build colonies. Never mind that Ireland was the same country as the UK until a 100 years ago. Never mind that the US needed their "huddled masses" to build the country. Never mind that the bar to get into the US is significantly higher and the "bring me your tire huddled masses" on the base of the statue of Liberty is a historic document, not a current one. Never mind that there have been deep ethnic divisions in the US almost from the get go and today we have civil unrest and protests because of it. But again you seem to have difficulty in grasping the differences.

I'm happy to give people an opportunity to make a good life here as so many have irrespective of their education on arrival.

Are you willing to pay for them? If so that's charity, not a reasoned immigration policy and the unemployment stats for some demographics of these opportunity seekers are much worse than the background native stats.

MFPM wrote: »

More classism...

No, again realities.

Pre pandemic we had what is termed full employment, so if we removed all the 'underclass' migrants cleaning the toiltes and making the sandwiches the unemployment in those areas would drop, right?

"Full employment" is more an economic and political term. The reality is we had an underclass who were out of that loop. Again why import another one that also has some extra social issues on top? Can you answer that please?

On the 'underclass' the very nice Polish woman who cleans my workplace is a qualified accountant.

And that's apropos of what exactly? Poland is a member of the EU, the woman can choose what she wants to do or where she wants to go within same. She could re qualify locally as an accountant if she chose to. Maybe she is in the background and the cleaning job is a stopgap, or she finds it more convenient around her family life.

Pesky migrants causing all the problems....

Nope. Again with the simplistic approach hoping to roll out the all so easy "racist" card. Again please answer this: Which demographics are more likely to be at the bottom social and economic end of these multicultural societies? And yes again, just in case you think you're making some point racism has a lot to do with it. Nevertheless what's the answer to my question?

I remain yours, in the slim hope for some answers.

mick087

Deleted User wrote: »

No, they don't. It's like how the minimum wage made it actually harder for many people to get work, because potential employers couldn't afford to pay for certain jobs. Increase the pay, and many jobs will disappear completely, only to be filled unofficially, off the books, etc. Giving people less protections overall.

Edit: Here's an example. All through my teens, every summer I'd cut turf in West Galway. Pay wasn't amazing, hard work, but I got plenty of work, and there were extra benefits thrown in to offset the lower pay. Now, those kind of jobs are essentially gone, because there's no profit anymore in hiring people to do it (it was never a money maker anyway for the organisers). Instead, it's done through family/friendship networks, but not advertised at all. So.. for anyone who wants work, that kind of work is completely off the table. And for teenagers, it used be damn good work (since it was good physical conditioning, and invariably you'd get introduced to the local girls ]

I have yet to meet anyone who told me they found it diffiuclt to get a minimum pay job. I dont accept that its made finding a job harder.

Turf i belive the EU have laws and rules regarding this that actually make it difficult to cut turf. As far as i can tell the Turf buisness is dead not from lack of employing people but that of EU regulation.

Mr. Karate

iebamm2580 wrote: »

https://nypost.com/2020/07/09/when-diversity-training-is-all-about-feeding-racism/

The local county council workers would love a meeting like this in the future.

This kind of nonsense will only result in Whites [particularly Men] leaving the workforce. Feminism has already painted all Men as rapists if they dare glance in a Woman's direction. This is just one more incentive to just check out of the workforce.

Good Luck paying for the replacement population if the majority are no longer working to pay for it.

mick087

mick087 wrote: »

I have yet to meet anyone who told me they found it diffiuclt to get a minimum pay job. I dont accept that its made finding a job harder.

Which is fine, since that's not what I said....

As for not believing people, depends on their circumstances. I have a shaking disorder which prevents me from doing a lot of cafe type work. But yeah, for anyone without a physical/mental problem, I'd be skeptical too.

Turf i belive the EU have laws and rules regarding this that actually make it difficult to cut turf. As far as i can tell the Turf buisness is dead not from lack of employing people but that of EU regulation.

EU regulations are only as powerful as when they're enforced... and they're not that comprehensive. My own family has bogland where we can cut whatever turf we want. We just don't because we don't need it.

The turf business dried up because people found alternative fuels which were cheaper and less dirty/smelly. At the same time though, there's many people who still use turf for their own needs and will hire others to help them cut enough to last a decent period. (In my family's area, the growth of forestry, has provided very cheap bundles of wood, which are more convenient than using turf because there's less cleaning up afterwards, although i do miss the smell of a turf fire)

mick087

Deleted User wrote: »

Which is fine, since that's not what I said....

As for not believing people, depends on their circumstances. I have a shaking disorder which prevents me from doing a lot of cafe type work. But yeah, for anyone without a physical/mental problem, I'd be skeptical too.
I dont think you know what your talking about or are misunderstanding me.
There are plenty of minimum wage jobs out there, the trouble is Irish people wont do them because they are to low paid.


EU regulations are only as powerful as when they're enforced... and they're not that comprehensive. My own family has bogland where we can cut whatever turf we want. We just don't because we don't need it.
Im no expert and have little knowledge on Turf and laws the EU impose on this subject.

The turf business dried up because people found alternative fuels which were cheaper and less dirty/smelly. At the same time though, there's many people who still use turf for their own needs and will hire others to help them cut enough to last a decent period. (In my family's area, the growth of forestry, has provided very cheap bundles of wood, which are more convenient than using turf because there's less cleaning up afterwards, although i do miss the smell of a turf fire)
If this business has dried up hence there is no demand for jobs in this area. So who ever owns the land will dig up what they need for friends and family. Yes they have to do it themselves and id say its hard work, i really have no idea about it to be honest.
[/QUOTE]

mick087

mick087 wrote: »

I dont think you know what your talking about or are misunderstanding me.
There are plenty of minimum wage jobs out there, the trouble is Irish people wont do them because they are to low paid.

Just like the quote system on boards is so easy to use but you don't use it? Yup.

There are plenty of minimum wage jobs out there. I never suggested otherwise. For someone suggesting that I'm misunderstanding you (or that I don't know what I'm talking about), it's twice now that you've misunderstood my own posts, or inferred things that I didn't say. Perhaps reread what I did say originally, and consider you might have misunderstood me?

B]Im no expert and have little knowledge on Turf and laws the EU impose on this subject.[/B]

You brought it up. I didn't.

B]If this business has dried up hence there is no demand for jobs in this area. So who ever owns the land will dig up what they need for friends and family. Yes they have to do it themselves and id say its hard work, i really have no idea about it to be honest.[/B]

There is some demand for the jobs among local people... Just as there were jobs in the gutting of fish, or any number of similar jobs which don't require much skill, but also don't have much in the way of a profit for the people involved. I really have no idea why you're objecting to what I said, since what I said, was suitable to the examples I gave. ie. work that becomes less visible due to increases in the minimum wage. It's not that the work disappears completely.