What are your views on Multiculturalism in Ireland? - Threadbanned User List in OP

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118908628#Comment_118908628

She was adopted by Irish people, she has automatic citizenship as an adopted person.

I'm any case, Irish people can be born in England.

rgossip30

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118907978#Comment_118907978

The law states they have Irish citizenship but that does not make them native Irish with an ancestry here .

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118906773#Comment_118906773

Does it matter to know that you're talking to someone who thinks Paul McGrath or Phil Lynott are not Irish? Yes, it matters because it shows that person to be a racist.

No, it doesn't. Denying that someone is Irish is not racist. Now, if they were denying that they were Irish because they weren't white, then, that would be racist.

You keep repeating the claim about racism, but all you're doing is showing that you don't know what the term means.

You can say you never said that but you were cheerleading a post that did say that someone with the same origins is not Irish and then brought up some weird Chinese stories to justify it.

I liked a post that mirrored my opinion on the acceptance of other ethnic groups within cultures that are predominately one ethnic group.

Again, you're repeating yourself hoping that's enough to prove something to be true... but it doesn't.

You inadvertently exposed yourself there and now once again you are writing tripe and trying to shut down that conversation by saying it doesn't matter that you don't think they are Irish. Well anyone interacting with you in good faith should know what they are interacting with and I will ensure that they do. No need for weird China stories in reply.

Where have I sought to shutdown the discussion? Go on, perhaps you could quote me doing that? Nah. I didn't think so. In fact, I encouraged you to post in a mature, and respectful manner... but you've consistently failed to do that.

Interacting with me in good faith? I'm getting the rather strong feeling that you throw out phrases without understanding how they're used. You haven't engaged in any kind of discussion in good faith. What weird China stories did I tell? I made a reference to the manner in which Chinese people view those born in China, who are not considered Chinese. Care to disprove what I stated? Nope?

And we're back to you showing a complete lack of awareness about the claims you make, and rather lame attempts at being sly. You keep failing. It's quite amusing actually. You could try countering what I said.. but I suspect you're revert to form, repeating the same vague accusations without providing a shred of evidence to stand on.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118909161#Comment_118909161

The law states they have Irish citizenship

It does indeed

One eyed Jack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118909161#Comment_118909161

Unless someone can demonstrate how they are native Irish with an ancestry here, they aren’t likely to be entitled to Irish citizenship! There are circumstances in which the Minister for Justice can waive the qualifying criteria for Irish citizenship, which are based upon associations of being related by blood, affinity or adoption to an Irish citizen, but that is entirely at the Ministers discretion.

The only significance of whether or not anyone meets your personal criteria for having the right to claim they are Irish, is for the purposes of donning a twee shirt with “Kiss me, I’m Irish” written on it. Any Plastic Paddy would meet that criteria, and there’s plenty of Irish people in foreign countries who do. That’s notwithstanding the fact that our own Patron Saint who had an enormous influence on Irish culture and heritage, wouldn’t meet your personal criteria, seeing as he wasn’t born in Ireland.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118909161#Comment_118909161

That is obvious!

Why do you feel that's an issue?

Wibbs

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118909180#Comment_118909180

Indeed, it seems I was a bit hasty in thinking the "I've no argument left so therefore you're a RACIST!!" posters had gone. Clearly not. The lack of self awareness is still in play too. The only people who have wanted to shut down discussion on this topic have been the pro multicultural side. We shouldn't even be having this discussion as it's racist by default has been a common theme since the start. They've been more involved in direct insult too when they run out of arguments. Which suggests their arguments are pretty thin. Well we know what they are.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118908638#Comment_118908638

Indeed. No wonder she's confused.

https://twitter.com/christineomg5/status/1511079539316772868

One progressive seeks to "cancel" another, over a drive to cancel a name on a university library, while on the one hand she drapes herself in her "Irishness" while on the other hand states she doesn't give a shít about our flags(unless they're recently minted rainbow ones of course) and isn't a patriot. So it seems the main reason she claims to be Irish is as a lacklustre political statement.

To be fair she's a young ex student "leftie" politics jourrnalist type. The motherlode of the Right On, and good luck to her. If she wasn't irritating old farts and lacking in internal logic she'd not be doing it right.

WrenBoy

For some on here being Irish doesn't seem to be much deeper than an administrative designation.

Fandymo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118903979#Comment_118903979

You mean like the meme of the white, Christian, American citizens who are “Irish”?? Like them??

So it seems the main reason she claims to be Irish is as a lacklustre political statement.

She 'claims' to be Irish, because she is.

She may well be an annoying student type, jumping on right-on issues. She is still Irish. Strange that people are trying so hard to prove she is not? Why is that? Is it because she was born in England? Or is it because she is black? We have a considerable amount of people living here who were born in the UK, many of them are Irish.

Wibbs

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118909458#Comment_118909458

For Progressive politics and those who drink it in uncritically it isn't. It goes beyond the "it's the law" responses. Which are an empty argument as it's not as if the world hasn't and isn't full of daft, illogical even downright evil laws. And they change all the time. Twenty years ago I couldn't sign a document that made me a woman, today I can. Twenty years ago simply being born in Ireland regardless of the citizenship of the parents made you a citizen, today it doesn't. In Progressive Western philosophy, quite understandably antagonistic towards the kind of nationalism that led to European colonies and the evils of the worst war in human history, the baby got thrown out with the bathwater. Nationhood is little more than a legal thing, at best a convenient cloak to put on and put down when it suits, while screeching about "cultural appropriation" if a White person does it. With the added confusion of protesting labels, while adding more labels to the pile on a near daily basis.

Wibbs

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118909474#Comment_118909474

I'm not trying to prove anything. She herself seems to vacillate between Irish as a tool to wind up "oppressors" and something that doesn't really matter. Happy to drape herself in a flag to one purpose, while stating she doesn't give a shít about flags to another. Schrödinger's nationalist. Her Irishness is more a tool of her politics than anything. Another "flag" to add at the end to the rainbows and Black fists to stick it to the Man.

One eyed Jack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118909451#Comment_118909451

I think her response to that tweet isn’t meant to be taken literally, she’s taking the piss out of yer man’s characterisation of her as “an English coloniser in Ireland”. How that’s anything other than a direct insult for lack of an argument, I dunno.

At least here there has been some attempt made by posters opposed to multiculturalism to mount a credible argument, for the most part leaning on disastrous immigration and integration policies which only relates to immigrants, as opposed to any argument against multiculturalism. It appears for them it comes to the ideas of a small number of people who see themselves as the arbiters of Irish society with themselves at the peak of the Hierarchy.

Madeleine Birchfield

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118909526#Comment_118909526

In the case of Irish unification, multiculturalism and the integration policies also relate to the Ulster Unionists who are the descendents of the Lowland Scottish and Cumbrians who settled in the Plantation of Ulster under King James, many of which thus aren't ethnically Irish or Gaelic either, being of Anglo-Saxon stock. Trying to ban multiculturalism in the event of Irish unification would likely lead to the UVF and the UDA mounting a terrorist insurgency against the Irish state.

rgossip30

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118909302#Comment_118909302

Anyone legally living here can get Irish citizenship after 5 years you want to call them native Irish !! Kiss me I am Irish .

Wibbs

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118909526#Comment_118909526

At least here there has been some attempt made by posters opposed to multiculturalism to mount a credible argument, for the most part leaning on disastrous immigration and integration policies which only relates to immigrants, as opposed to any argument against multiculturalism.

My argument would be about the politics of modern multiculturalism itself. I quite simply don't believe it works and the more unlike the "host" nation those coming in are the less it works. And this is directly and repeatedly observable throughout history and today. This isn't any "no true Scotsman" argument either. While the trends vary in degree, there isn't a single example of a Western multicultural society where the same trends don't play out and over generations with it. For example name me any such nation where being Black or Brown means you're less likely to be economically disadvantaged or in gaol, or where ethnic difficulties and flashpoints don't kick off. I'll save you the trouble, there isn't one. And yep racism does have a huge part to play in that, as does basic human nature and group dynamics, but it seems quite the intractable problem for the philosophy and politic to fix.

One eyed Jack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118909458#Comment_118909458

That’s an observation could cut both ways with opponents of multiculturalism arguments amounting to not much more than a requirement that anyone claiming to be Irish must be born here, or be able to trace their ancestry in Ireland. Their claims don’t appear to have any sort of political foundations at all - left, right or indifferent.

The closest I can think of, leaving out the idea of forcing everyone to speak Irish, because they appear to be more concerned with everyone being forced to speak English in order to assimilate into Irish society, were Ailtirí na hAiséirghe -

A central plank of Aiséirghe was its focus on the revival of the Irish language, viewing it as not only as an expression of cultural distinctiveness but also an instrument in which the party's ideals could be communicated to the Irish people. From the day of the party's ascension to power, all official business was to be conducted in Irish and no civil servant under thirty retained who was not fluent with the language. Those making representations to the government were to be denied a hearing unless they pleaded their case in Irish. A register of Irish-speaking households was to be compiled, with members of such households accorded positive discrimination. A heavy stamp duty was to be imposed on all notices in English and all streets, towns and business names would be required to be in Irish. Though English was to be tolerated "for a reasonable time" in the case of the Catholic Church, even sermons, pastoral letters and other communications by the Church would soon be required to incorporate passages in Irish. In addition, all foreign monuments and memorials were to be destroyed, all names of Irish citizens were to be Gaelicised, and the use of titles associated with the British monarchy or aristocracy would be forbidden.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ailtir%C3%AD_na_hAiséirghe

Can’t imagine why they weren’t more popular, nor why they wouldn’t be as popular today 🤔

RYEL

Correlation does not equal causation.

Immigrants will likely make up a greater proportion of their whole as the most economically disadvantaged than the native population in european society. The rich don't have as much reason to migrate.

Show me any society where the most economically disadvantaged do not make up the largest proportion of those in prison.

If we take away all the non white people will crime suddenly disappear from ireland?

Madeleine Birchfield

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118909658#Comment_118909658

"...Despite this, Ó Cuinneagáin was prepared to use ethnic cleansing against any of the mostly Protestant Irish unionists who resisted inclusion in an Irish state, and to replace them with members of the Irish diaspora."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ailtir%C3%AD_na_hAis%C3%A9irghe#Attitude_towards_Protestantism

The UVF and UDA would have been vindicated in their beliefs if Ailtirí na hAiséirghe were in charge of Ireland.

Wibbs

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118909670#Comment_118909670

This is seen across generations, not just the first generation of immigrants and in every Western multicultural society. And then there's the knotty problem of the trend with East Asians. They're more likely to be better educated, richer and less likely to be in gaol than the native White population, regardless of the economic and educational status of the first generation of East Asian immigrants. And this is also seen across Western multicultural societies. It also seems "race" has little enough to do with it too. Those of Indian heritage do better on average than those of Pakistani heritage. Same "race".

If we take away all the non white people will crime suddenly disappear from ireland?

A silly argument and something nobody suggested. However we, like any society on Earth have pre-existing social and economic problems, so why would any society be hellbent on adding to them by importing more and different ones?

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118909738#Comment_118909738

No-one is importing social and economic problems. No-one is even importing people.

you suggest being black or brown means they are more likely to be economically disadvantaged, but fail to address why, other then they are black or brown!

There is no need for this to happen in Ireland, it's up to government to encourage all people into education/skill training and to make it worth their while to go to work. No matter what colour they are.

Cordell

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118909670#Comment_118909670

The answer, well, your answer, to that question can be found it the rest of your post. Immigrants are poor and they will crime because they are poor. Bigotry of low expectations is the worst form of racism, where the racists think they're virtuous while they consider some people as being lesser by default.

And yes, crime and unemployment are strongly corelated with certain places of origin for some the immigrants, and quite the opposite for others. Which can be interpreted is various ways but what's sure is that it is true.

Cordell

@Wibbs

Those of Indian heritage do better on average than those of Pakistani heritage. Same "race".

Because it's the culture, not the race. Which apparently it's a racist thing to say...

One eyed Jack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118909589#Comment_118909589

One of the biggest reasons there’s no will to address the negative consequences of mass immigration is because of the reality that mass immigration means a plentiful supply of labour which reduces employers cost of doing business, thereby contributing to economic prosperity and growth. Immigrants are overwhelmingly employed in the lowest economic sectors in any society.

It’s not even about any will to integrate people who are socially disadvantaged into society, because that would be a disaster for the private sector which receives public funds to provide their services to the State, saving the State a fortune in administration costs.

Multiculturalism does work, depending upon the objectives of it’s proponents. I don’t believe for a minute that Governments are so naïve that they don’t realise that they need mass immigration in order to grow their economies, while at the same time they’re also paying private interests out of public funds to provide their services to the State.

Taking a political position on multiculturalism and immigration is a profitable venture for people on both sides of left and right politics, plenty of whom would be forced to seek alternative employment if multiculturalism ever led to social cohesion.

Wibbs

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118909853#Comment_118909853

No-one is importing social and economic problems. No-one is even importing people.

Multiculturalism does.

you suggest being black or brown means they are more likely to be economically disadvantaged, but fail to address why, other then they are black or brown!

You must have missed this part: And yep racism does have a huge part to play in that, as does basic human nature and group dynamics.

How do you explain Asian success? Are Chinese and Vietnamese etc magically safe from racism? Why don't they follow the script?

There is no need for this to happen in Ireland, it's up to government to encourage all people into education/skill training and to make it worth their while to go to work. No matter what colour they are.

Annnnd we're back to hope over realities. Hoping that this time, just this once if we weally weally hope hard enough Ireland alone will be the outlier. Pity that the same trends are already happening in Ireland and in just 25 years with it. We're already seeing ghettoisation, we're already seeing higher reliance on social welfare, we're already seeing anti social behaviour and we're already seeing the same identity politics bollocks on both sides as the cherry on top.

Cordell

mass immigration means a plentiful supply of labour which reduces employers cost of doing business, thereby contributing to economic prosperity and growth. Immigrants are overwhelmingly employed in the lowest economic sectors in any society.

This is simply not true @One eyed Jack. You don't get economic prosperity from the lowest economic sectors, not it today's western Europe anyway. You get if from the high value added sectors like tech and finance where indeed there is a lot of immigrants working on top 10% salaries, and those sectors are the ones producing most of the Ireland's GDP - this is why during the lockdown with all the stores and hospitality closed the GDP was not really hit, because it doesn't come from those. But these immigrants are not part of the mass migration, they are individually vetted if they are non Europeans and that means proper vetting not the sham one that results in those leave to remain and amnesty.

RYEL

Looking at the irish prison stats by nationalities does not give me any breakdown by Pakistani or Indian. Only Asian.

In fact looking at the breakdown of prison stats it would seem considering the poulation British people are underrepresented in Irish prisons and europeans are over represented.

Is the answer to leave the EU and rejoin the United Kingdom in exile?

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118909968#Comment_118909968

And we're back to 'sure that's the way it is everywhere '

'same trends '? Ghettos? Anti social behaviour? What are we seeing exactly? Where are these ghettos? Can you describe them? Which anti social behaviour? By whom? Immigrants? Is there some way you could possibly back up these statements?

RYEL

Looking at the UK prison stats now Irish people are over represented when compared with Indians and Pakistanis in Welsh and English prisons when comparing prisoners by nationality.

Maybe the UK won't want us when we kick out the European troublemakers.

Wibbs

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118909951#Comment_118909951

I'd agree with that alright. Though I would still say that regardless of the reasons for the promotion of multiculturalism human nature gets in the way of it working. Our tribalism is just too strong. And yep the promotion of multiculturalism is very much a "left" and "right/capitalist" thing, which makes for strange bedfellows indeed. Capitalists love the notion of "open borders" because it makes for cheap labour to make stuff and more consumers to buy it. The "left" love the notion of "open borders" because they have this hopeful if terribly naive notion that we can all live in some magical multicoloured nirvana where colour creed or gender mean nothing. My heart is with them on this, my head isn't and neither is with the capitalists.

The only other politic and philosphy I can think of that both get into bed on is feminism. For pretty much the same reasons. Capitalists backed feminism because you can't monetise "mothers" and "housewives". Well you can if you get women into the same working grind so men and women delay parenthood and then pay childminders and cleaners(often immigrants), while instantly doubling the number of consumers and producers. Ker-ching! Immigration takes up the shortfall of later parenthood and fewer kids, while the working men and women struggle to pay bills as a couple that once could be covered by one income.

Always follow the money and if the money is backing the "left", when it logically shouldn't, then there's a very good reason for it and it's an advantage to the "left" and society by mistake, not design.