What are your views on Multiculturalism in Ireland? - Threadbanned User List in OP
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Were we taking exclusively about UK ? I made a comment that a post read like Dominic Cummings style Brexit material. Didn’t know I had volunteered or committed to UK only discussion. Apologies also for bringing accommodation into this, thought also relevant as politicians in last few days have explicitly mentioned immigration in relation to Ireland’s multi factorial housing issues. Thread title is about Multiculturalism in Ireland
Appreciate the link to UK HR legal advice. Very nice Hypotheticals on bias aside, I’ll remain optimistic that Irish who want to work are not at threat from immigrants. If anyone has systematic evidence or even some real anecdotes of positive discrimination in Ireland for low paid jobs (or other) I’m all ears.
I’ll tune in again next week.
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Don’t go all leprechaun on me now.
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I’m guessing you’re not a parent - the reality in this country is that if you’re not well off your kid goes to the nearest school. The school bus system enforces that, and time constraints with travelling to work enforce that. So your nice quote in bold is all very well in theory, reality is different.
You’re free to make whatever assumptions you wish about other people and why they might disagree with your opinions; however, it’s not because I’m a parent that I don’t share your opinions.
It’s because I know that what you’re saying has no basis in reality whatsoever. For starters, I am a parent, and I’m not well-off either, but because my income is well above the threshold in order for my child to qualify for a medical card, it means my child also does not qualify for a school bus pass. It means I pay, I think it’s about €300 annually for a bus ticket which allows my child to travel to school 25km away rather than schools which are much nearer. €300 a year isn’t going to break the bank and I consider it a worthwhile investment in his education. I don’t begrudge anyone either the medical card or a bus ticket for their children, these initiatives are to support their children’s education.
Time constraints travelling to work? I live about 10 minutes walk from the office, and my employer is fairly flexible in terms of my employment and the hours I do, and where I choose to work from - I can choose to work either from home, or from the office. Personally, I prefer to be in the office, others prefer to work from home as they hate the commute; others still, are just antisocial sorts who prefer their own company. Others still, are based nationally and internationally so it would be silly to expect them to commute daily to and from the office. The issue isn’t with employers, it’s with some employees expectations of employment not being provided for by their employers.
So the nice quote in bold is from the Irish Constitution, which is very much reality as it is the foundation upon which Irish Constitutional Law is based. It’s why if we take your hypothetical example of a family living in poverty, the reality is that they cannot be forced by the State to enrol their children in the nearest school to them in an education system which you would wish existed. The theory in this case is your own ideas which you wish to promote, in complete contrast to reality.
And yes it has worked out well for the French, they would have full on Madrasas otherwise. It would be the single best thing we could do for this country’s future - and I would say that equally for all religions, they have no place in schools.
The French do have full on Madrasas? But not for much longer if Macron has his way and implements laws which severely restrict Muslims religious freedom. If we were again to use your example of people on low incomes forced to send their children to the nearest school, the reality is that by design, it would disproportionately target lower income families, as is already evidenced in France by the new laws Macron intends to introduce, because that is what they are intended to do -
Muslims in France – the former colonies of which include predominantly Muslim countries in north and west Africa as well as the Middle East – are estimated at nearly four million, about six percent of the population.
French governments have often been at odds with Muslim traditions when they were perceived to run counter to core French values or hinder integration. The subject has heightened disputes between rival understandings of French secularism, or laïcité, which disagree on how far the state should go in asserting religious neutrality in the public sphere.
In 2004, a law banned headscarves from French schools, followed six years later by the so-called "burqa ban", prohibiting the wearing in public of the full-face veil. More recently, some southern French seaside resorts banned Muslim women from beaches if they wore full-body "burkinis".
According to a survey of France’s Muslim population, published by the Ipsos institute earlier this year, 77 percent said they had no trouble practising their religion in France. However, the same survey found that 44 percent of French Muslims believe the rest of society has little regard for them. The figure rose to 61 percent among Muslims living in households earning less than the minimum wage.
You could say it for all religions all you like, it’s still just a theory which isn’t grounded in reality. In reality, the Irish Government has no real interest in establishing State schools; it prefers to leave the establishment of schools to patron bodies - some of whom are religious, some of whom are not. In reality, even with six percent of the French population being Muslim, French society is not overrun with Madrasas, let alone to the extent that a new law is required to limit their establishment. In Ireland, Muslims make up less than two percent of the population, so your ideas of the country being overrun by Madrasas amounts to nothing more than paranoid nonsense when one considers the fact that patron bodies like Educate Together have existed in this country for the best part of 40 years, and still they have yet to gain any sort of traction - there exist about 100 ET schools, in contrast to nearly 3,000 schools owned and operated by the Catholic Church.
I come at the issue from the complete opposite direction to you, but at least my ideas are grounded in reality - I have no issue whatsoever with the establishment of more schools owned and operated by various patron bodies. One of the handy things about ET schools flying rainbow flags outside their schools is that it lets parents know which schools to avoid when choosing a school for their children’s education. I don’t get paranoid that the country is going to be overrun by ET schools any time soon, or that I could ever be forced to send my child to the nearest one. I wouldn’t try to force their ideas on anyone - parent, child or otherwise.
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Well he won in the end and so did the Brexiteers. I dont know about housing in England, I do know there is affordable housing in certain cities and areas in England, unlike here where virtually all areas have no supply and unaffordable for average workers.
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Capping immigration is a good step in the right direction, but to solve the problem altogether there needs to be deportations as well. If they can not or will not behave in our societies than they should no longer be welcome here.
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600 per year, and you can only get a bus place if you’re very lucky, and absolutely only for the nearest school. Due to this fact, I had no choice but to send my unfortunate daughter to a Catholic school.
and you live 10 minutes from work. Yeah different reality, different world.
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Your post reminds me of that old joke about the definition of honesty - a pregnant woman paying for two on a bus.
I’m assuming however that your unfortunate daughter is not so unfortunate as to find herself in those circumstances, which means the €600 you’re unfortunately having to pay is for more children than just your unfortunate daughter -
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There is a single annual charge of €350 per pupil. The maximum charge for a family with children using the School Transport Scheme is €500 per year.
Granted the cap of €500 was only introduced earlier this year as part of a package of measures to mitigate the rising cost of living in Ireland -
It’s not different reality at all, nor is it a different world. We’re both living in the same country, only we both have different ideas based upon our different circumstances, which is why I’m not bitter about the fact I didn’t get an invite to your pity party. Your circumstances are by no means unique, and if your unfortunate daughter doesn’t meet the criteria to qualify for a free bus ticket, then you’re clearly not low-income enough either. It still doesn’t mean that if a family in this country aren’t well-off, they have to send their children to the nearest school.
You could try and pursue a case against the Department of Education, claiming your unfortunate daughter is the victim of discrimination on religious grounds… unless you’re Catholic, then you’d be wasting your time -
The WRC adjudicator said that the facts presented were “sufficient to raise an inference” that the family had been subjected to less favourable treatment because they were Catholics than a Church of Ireland or other minority religion would be treated.
He noted that while there were 343 post-primary schools operating under a Catholic ethos, there were only 23 under a Church of Ireland ethos.
The adjudicator said he was satisfied that the department had shown that people looking to attend a secondary school under a minority ethos would find it difficult to avail of the same opportunities as those attending a Catholic ethos school.
Therefore, the provisions in the scheme had a “bona fide intention to take positive measures… to promote equality of opportunity”, according to the adjudicator.
Finding in favour of the Department of Education, it found the woman and her daughter had not been discriminated against on religious grounds.
https://www.thejournal.ie/catholic-ethos-school-4142876-Jul2018/?amp=1
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You set the theme... The UK and Ireland are very different situations on many levels, hence why I wanted to keep them separate. Makes it easier. Talking about the two would only confuse things because the UK is well ahead of us in terms of migrant populations, but also has a traditional racism (and subsequent guilt over it) that doesn't translate to Ireland.
Apologies also for bringing accommodation into this, thought also relevant as politicians in last few days have explicitly mentioned immigration in relation to Ireland’s multi factorial housing issues. Thread title is about Multiculturalism in Ireland
No worries... but I'm not going to argue over a point I haven't made. There's others on the thread far more interested in housing/rental than I am, since I'm between countries at the moment.
Appreciate the link to UK HR legal advice. Very nice Hypotheticals on bias aside, I’ll remain optimistic that Irish who want to work are not at threat from immigrants.
The link and the bias related to the UK. Not Ireland. Although, we have been on the receiving end of a lot of conditioning about white guilt by political parties, RTE and it's made it's way into education too. The recent accounts relating to BLM show just how much Americanisms, have established themselves within Irish culture, even though, we've never had any kind of systematic racism that is present in other countries. The same can be seen in the laws being proposed over Hate speech which tend to protect certain groups, elevating them to a position where they're innocent of all hate.
As of right now, Ireland's immigrant population is not enough to be a definitive threat. Come back when Irelands' migrant population is 20-25% of the overall population (so another decade or so), and then, I'll be more than happy to point out the basic laws regarding supply, demand, and competition. (which you ignored about the UK/Northern England)
If anyone has systematic evidence or even some real anecdotes of positive discrimination in Ireland for low paid jobs (or other) I’m all ears.
Why? Would it really change your opinion on the topic? I don't think it would. In any case, such examples would be minor and rare, because the effects that have happened elsewhere in Europe, haven't reached the same point here yet.
Grand. So, we've established that you're not interested in a mature and honest discussion. Right. Won't bother my arse dealing with your superficial shite again.
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I don't think deportations is the answer TBH. Oh, sure, those who (failed asylum seekers, illegal immigrants, expired visas) should have been deported.. they should be kicked out, with a clear message to never, ever return.
However, we have to deal with the foreign population that is here now, and is unlikely to leave. It's the same problem facing the UK, France, Germany etc. People who have put down roots, and had families here. I do think we need to give up the vague nonsense about integration, and instead, revert to the more traditional perspective on assimilation being the goal. Not this mad desire to have everyone hold on to their own particular culture difference, but that in public, people living in Ireland should aim to behave as one nationality. Not "New Irish", just be Irish, regardless of your skin colour, religion or other distinguishing factor you want to raise. What people do in the privacy of their own homes is up to them, but it should be different external to that.
Migrants on temp visas, who have no intention of staying here, can behave as they wish within the law... and visas should have a renewal cutoff period. We really should be making getting a visa to Ireland something of a bit of pride. We should be taking pride in the quality of Ireland.. recognising that many people want to live here, and as such, why do we not aim to get the best? Those who are likely to improve the nation, rather than becoming a drain on it.
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What?
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Due to college courses for international students.
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Apologies for multiple links.
Good for you.
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The link and the bias related to the UK. Not Ireland. Although, we have been on the receiving end of a lot of conditioning about white guilt by political parties, RTE and it's made it's way into education too. The recent accounts relating to BLM show just how much Americanisms, have established themselves within Irish culture, even though, we've never had any kind of systematic racism that is present in other countries. The same can be seen in the laws being proposed over Hate speech which tend to protect certain groups, elevating them to a position where they're innocent of all hate.
As of right now, Ireland's immigrant population is not enough to be a definitive threat. Come back when Irelands' migrant population is 20-25% of the overall population (so another decade or so), and then, I'll be more than happy to point out the basic laws regarding supply, demand, and competition. (which you ignored about the UK/Northern England).
The UK and Ireland have similar equality and anti-discrimination legislation, but aside from that, the recent moves towards introducing legislation specifically to address hate speech and hate crimes is coming from the European Commission. It isn’t just something Helen McEntee dreamed up off the back of NGO lobbying in Ireland specifically, nor has it been influenced by Americanisms, nor is it’s introduction intended to elevate particular groups in society over other groups or elevate any group to a position where they are innocent of all hate. The introduction of any legislation acknowledges people’s rights to freedom of expression and so on -
https://ec.europa.eu/commission/presscorner/detail/en/IP_21_6561
Never mind coming back in 20 years, could come back in 200 years and there will still be people claiming immigrants are a threat to Irish people and pointing out the basic laws regarding supply, demand and competition in order to promote their own political agenda.
I do think we need to give up the vague nonsense about integration, and instead, revert to the more traditional perspective on assimilation being the goal. Not this mad desire to have everyone hold on to their own particular culture difference, but that in public, people living in Ireland should aim to behave as one nationality. Not "New Irish", just be Irish, regardless of your skin colour, religion or other distinguishing factor you want to raise. What people do in the privacy of their own homes is up to them, but it should be different external to that.
Assimilation according to who’s standards though? We’ve already witnessed how attempts at assimilation have failed miserably internationally, where there was never any real attempt at integration. It has meant that second and third generation immigrants are still regarded as inferior and subjected to discrimination fuelled by prejudice, ensuring that they would neither integrate, nor could they be assimilated - if someone treats you like shìt, it stands to reason you’re not going to be interested in kissing their arse.
I don’t want to put words in your mouth, but I really don’t have any idea what you mean by people behaving as though they are one nationality. It’s not a mad notion that people would wish to promote their own ideas of what their own cultural and national identities mean to them. Attempting to limit anyones freedom to do so is never going to go down well.
Migrants on temp visas, who have no intention of staying here, can behave as they wish within the law... and visas should have a renewal cutoff period. We really should be making getting a visa to Ireland something of a bit of pride. We should be taking pride in the quality of Ireland.. recognising that many people want to live here, and as such, why do we not aim to get the best? Those who are likely to improve the nation, rather than becoming a drain on it.
It shouldn’t need clarification that anyone can behave as they wish within the limits of the law, regardless of their immigration or citizenship status. We really don’t need to invent new laws regarding immigration and citizenship in order to force immigrants and citizens to assimilate into vague notions of someone’s idea of an Irish national identity. We already do recognise that people want to live here, and we recognise why people want to live here, and people generally do take pride in the quality of Ireland and welcome people who want to live here. I’d be only too happy to invite people who are a drain on Irish society to leave, and don’t let the departure gates hit them on the way out.
We’re probably not talking about the same people though, but I see no need to concern ourselves with the nitty gritty when your ideas of a national identity and expectations of assimilation into same, are as vague as they are that they could easily change on a whim depending upon who’s in political power at the time and what mad notions they care to dream up in order to elevate themselves above other people and maintain their dominant position in Irish society, a bit like the way Macron in France and Johnson in the UK have managed to do by scapegoating groups of people in society.
But hey - when the UK economy is going tits-up, Johnson still manages to find something his Government can take credit for - the free bus pass for pensioners:
Cretin.
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Grand. So, we've established that you're not interested in a mature and honest discussion. Right. Won't bother my arse dealing with your superficial shite again.
I sincerely hope you find a way to make things work for you in Ireland, and not leave it to eke out a decent living, afford a home. You seem to be stressing out about that. Your anger will subside in time as you examine the reasons for your lack of fulfillment. Maybe then, others will stop being the reason for your misery.
Whatever you meant by “we’ve established”; keep me out of it.
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Okie dokie. More deflections and personal remarks. Nice. Just about sums up your contributions to the thread.
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That’s the way tou want to shape it, son.
Okie dokie, indeed.
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I'll add it to the list .
- Food
- Oomph
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Ireland's response to, and support of, Ukrainian folks who make it here, continues to get better.
Today an announcement on supports for third level students and researchers to get them into the 3rd level system here ASAP. Great news
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Well his "mature and honest discussion" boiled down to "cosmopolitan" and "food" and being in need of more "oomph". More of the nebulous exoticism stuff. When that doesn't work and deflection doesn't work, we've gone down the oh so well trodden path of getting personal; leprechauns, your apparent lack of fulfilment and the like(I'd also have accepted angry virgins living in bedsits, though these days many would have to sell their arse to afford a bedsit😁). AKA no argument at all. The sure sign of the paucity of an argument is when those holding a position struggle to define it and when asked to instead run to snideness and personal attack because they've nothing left in the reserve. A trend that outside of OEJ and a couple of others has been significantly more evident among the pro multicultural side in this thread.
Rejoice in the awareness of feeling stupid, for that’s how you end up learning new things. If you’re not aware you’re stupid, you probably are.
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Deportations need to be part of the answer. We cannot sustain this course. We have an HSE system that cannot sustain the current population. With unlimited immigration now that will hurt the system more. GPs aren't taking anymore new patients so they'll all be going to the A&E and Hospital doctors have been working 80 hour shifts. With the skyrocketing cost of living, ridiculous amounts of debt this Country is starting to feel like its on the verge of collapse.
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They are now too busy rubberstamping illegals to do anything about all these problems.
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I'm certainly in the deportation camp myself, but the problem with that is that the left have attacked justified deportations or anything similar so much that doing so is viewed as some radical act by some. Even if we deported all the recent illegals, or even some of them, there'd be large campaigns from the media and NGOs about the horrors of it all, and while I hate them, they still have a level of control in Ireland. On top on that, whoever would be behind said deportations would be painted as a Hitler like lunatic simply for enforcing the law.
“The man who lies to himself can be more easily offended than anyone else. You know it is sometimes very pleasant to take offense, isn't it? A man may know that nobody has insulted him, but that he has invented the insult for himself, has lied and exaggerated to make it picturesque, has caught at a word and made a mountain out of a molehill--he knows that himself, yet he will be the first to take offense, and will revel in his resentment till he feels great pleasure in it.”-― Fyodor Dostoevsky, The Brothers Karamazov5 -
While I'm critical of multiculturalism, and critical of Ireland's immigration/citizenship processes... I don't like jumping to extremes. It does more harm than good, and simply makes it easier for the pro-multiculturalism crowd to dismiss you.
We don't have unlimited immigration. There are basic immigration requirements that exclude large numbers of applications each year. The Ukrainian crisis has brought under 30k to our shores, and likely will bring more, but.. it's still not anything like unlimited immigration.
Deportations of those who should have been deported, and those who are here illegally.. yes definitely. Beyond that, no. That ship sailed long ago. We have a foreign population. We have to deal with them. Anyway, having "diverse" populations is the new reality for every nation.. those who learn to deal with it, will rise, those that don't will tear themselves apart.
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Victory in this thread had been declared multiculturalism has been slain by the old men of boards.
Now if they could just convince the politicians the people of Ireland who elect said politicians the media and destroy the NGOs then all would be well in Ireland.
For as we all know from reading this thread everything that is wrong with Ireland is the fault of "multicultutal politic" whoever and whatever that may be.
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I said it on another thread, but some posters have a great need to frame the opposition as "old men". It's a cheap tactic, because sound arguments stand on their own, so it doesn't matter who makes them. If I went into threads about women rights or any female based topic and started screaming about "fat, ugly women" or anything similar, I'd be shown the door very quickly. I wouldn't do that though, because I don't have to, because like I said, sound arguments stand on their own two feet. Progressives honestly seem to judge arguments based on the demographics who make them, meaning that they've no care for substance, and every care for "identity".
“The man who lies to himself can be more easily offended than anyone else. You know it is sometimes very pleasant to take offense, isn't it? A man may know that nobody has insulted him, but that he has invented the insult for himself, has lied and exaggerated to make it picturesque, has caught at a word and made a mountain out of a molehill--he knows that himself, yet he will be the first to take offense, and will revel in his resentment till he feels great pleasure in it.”-― Fyodor Dostoevsky, The Brothers Karamazov14 -
Not old, middle aged white Irish men with the odd immigrant like meself, not that it matters for anything but this is just fact.
And also this is why we don't discuss these matters with the kids.
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It will be no problem for you then to convince all the politicians people and media about the horrors of multicultural politic with your sound arguments.
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Not really. In both Italy & France a large section of the youth are voting right wing. I'm in my early 30's, and have cared about the issue since I was in my mid 20's. I am guilty of the crime and being white and male though.
“The man who lies to himself can be more easily offended than anyone else. You know it is sometimes very pleasant to take offense, isn't it? A man may know that nobody has insulted him, but that he has invented the insult for himself, has lied and exaggerated to make it picturesque, has caught at a word and made a mountain out of a molehill--he knows that himself, yet he will be the first to take offense, and will revel in his resentment till he feels great pleasure in it.”-― Fyodor Dostoevsky, The Brothers Karamazov6 -
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Whatever about the naysayers on this thread, it's pretty obvious how most people feel about immigrants, they welcome them with open arms.
One prime example, an army of locals come together in a small Waterford village to get a house ready for refugees.
RTE news : Local group transforms old house into home for refugees
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