What are your views on Multiculturalism in Ireland? - Threadbanned User List in OP

The_Kew_Tour

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119152552#Comment_119152552

What normal natural change you on about?

enricoh

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119152553#Comment_119152553

Great to have you back Robbie, I mean ryel sorry!! New poster incoming in 3,2,1!

Cordell

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119152457#Comment_119152457

2022 so far, it's still time for worse.

Wibbs

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119152088#Comment_119152088

All those with hatred for other races have in this thread is cliche after cliche.

When argument fails, or when arguments are extremely thin on the ground there's a need to avoid them, run to racism as a get out option. Direct insult the other. This has been with sadly and remarkably few exceptions been the go to "argument" of those in favour of multiculturalism throughout this thread from the start. Of the threadbanned posters listed in the first page of this thread an equally remarkable large percentage of those were those in favour because they attacked the player not the ball. For apparently such a self evident and obvious given it's not a good look for multiculturalism or those that defend it.

Ask them what their solution is and they go quiet.

Literally me in my last post.

I honestly don't think there is a solution once it's in play. The only "solution" of sorts is to limit migration before it's in play as it's very much based on numbers. A couple of thousand [insert group here] in a population of a couple of million [insert goup here] is quite doable. Tens, or hundreds of thousands of [insert group here] in a population of a couple of million [insert goup here] is when the trend comes into play. As has been pointed out as some sort of "defence" of this politic we already had internal social frictions among the "natives" and I would agree. Multiculturalism brings in added social frictions and different social frictions and as has the experience of every single nation that tries this political experiement seemingly intractable ones.

But I'm not surprised you didn't actually read the arguments. You are consistent in this at least as you try and fail to find that "gotcha" moment you think will hand you some sort of victory over the "racists". It's a lot easier than actually debating the points raised of course.

Name one positive that is unique or special of Irish society?

Name one positive that is unique or special about [insert non Irish society here] you think will "improve" us?

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119152518#Comment_119152518

Nope. Try again. What I actually wrote:

Compared to White Western Liberal democratic nations and cultures, yes. Not just Black cultures. The Western liberal democracies are by most metrics the least misogynistic and violent.

Cultures not people. EG Middle Eastern cultures are to Western liberal eyes more misogynistic with more strict gender roles. Does this mean all Middle Eastern people are misogynistic? Of course it doesn't, but it's not "racist" to point out those sometimes stark differences in culture. As far as "Black culture"(a stupidly simplistic label anyway) I posted surveys that showed quite clear differences between "White culture" and "Black culture" in multicultural societies in cultural attitudes to homophobia. I can link all the day long similar differences across other cultures that find themselves in Western multicultural societies. The UK, Denmark, France, Spain and so on have done plenty such surveys and studies. Though you will avoid reading them, because well...

This. Screeching Racism!!!

Do you deny that Western liberal democracies are by most metrics the least misogynistic and violent? If you do deny that then I really don't know what to say to you. If you don't then by obvious extension this means other cultures can be more misogynistic and violent.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119151986#Comment_119151986

I find everything weird? What are you basing that on, other than plucking the claim for thin air? Oh, and I spent quite a few years involved in a punk scene.. Although considering you objected over cultural appropriation, you've already shown that you've assumed an unreasonable position.

Weirdness and exoticism are the key words between you two.

Ok, let's see some direct quotes from me on both of those things (related to me). Cause I'm pretty sure that I've never mentioned exoticism in any of my posts, and the only times I've mentioned something being weird, it was describing a choice of behaviour. I seriously doubt that weird is a key word in my posts.

I haven't denied claiming that there are a wide range of negatives connected with diversity in a multicultural context, but I suspect that's not the point. The point is that I haven't embraced diversity in it's entirety the way other posters, like yourself, have.

All the same, you're still talking about me (or Wibbs) and not countering the points made... which is key behaviour when it comes to your presence on the thread.

Keep on pretending you are wordly, and hammering the same rusty nail for a thousand posts. Boring.

Then, skip over them. TBH I doubt you read them anyway, just scanning to find something to nitpick over.

As for boring, you really should consider your own posts in that context, because I queried something of yours and three posts later, you still haven't clarified or explained them properly. You shifted focus, deflecting away, with the attempt to make this about me, rather than what I queried.

Arthur Daley

Let's see what Diane Abbott has to say

Government boast it is opening up visas to the world’s top graduates. But many originally come from third world countries. Why is Britain asset stripping poor countries like this?

Diane Abbott MP on Twitter: "Government boast it is opening up visas to the world’s top graduates. But many originally come from third world countries. Why is Britain asset stripping poor countries like this? https://t.co/ZGNtfNPloC" / Twitter

Cordell

@Wibbs

Do you deny that Western liberal democracies are by most metrics the least misogynistic and violent?

Of course they will deny, not with a straight answer, but they will never admit that. You know why? Because that requires honesty and being honest about these things is deemed racist these days.

And it's not even just the non-western cultures and subcultures. The western, let's say, hip-hop culture of the 90s and 2000s has become extremely misogynistic, homophobic and violent and at the same time it has become dominated by muslim artists. Go figure if this was just a correlation or maybe there is some causality.

Strumms

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119149233#Comment_119149233

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119100544#Comment_119100544

its not grand…

it’s not grand that people are on ever expanding hospital waiting lists. Because of the DEMAND.

its not grand that Ireland has the least rehabilitative beds in the whole of the EU per head of population.

its not grand that public transport infrastructure isn’t coping with the current population, yet the impending influx, fück.

its not grand that two thirds of people on the social housing waiting list are on it over two years now to be Q skipped. You know, taxpayers !

it’s not grand that to accommodate the influx planning laws and standards will be and are being overlooked..’ we need it, build it ‘…

these things don’t ‘just pass’.. what’s happening in and to this country.. the negative reverberations will be felt for decades. Financially, socially, every manner of our existence and wellbeing will be challenged and our quality of life as taxpayers and as citizens an afterthought..

we will see a population spike and demand on all these services like never in the history of the state… the naive and selfishly myopic decisions will reverberate for decades and generations….. for to be Irish in one’s own country will soon guarantee you nothing aside from… ‘ you are here ‘

I’d have no wish or want to bring life into this world, in this state. Because as a result of these decisions this country will be in a state.

this isn’t a crises, this IS life as we’ve known it turned upside down…. This is the political classes selling out the very people who they are elected to serve, CITIZENS…. A ‘crisis’ is temporary.. this isn’t..

time to say bye and fûck you to the EU…

and remember…

don’t get sick

dont lose your job

dont break up from the husband / wife

because soon state supports will be tokenistic… won’t happen overnight… because what’s happening over time is an erosion of our wellbeing…

hundreds of thousands of people coming here to attain safety but…who will and are..

• driving down wages
• being prioritised over us for housing
• being prioritised over us for attainable healthcare

thousand in time will not only want to remain here but will try and bring other family here too…

i saw the attitude in the gym at my local college… here for accommodation, support, money, safety… they thought that staying in a location that happened to have a gym meant that they automatically had membership to it and proceeded to hassle and harry the lone female staff member by crowding her and whilst not shouting were raising voices in an intimidating manner… until she eventually was forced to give them the same so they’d piss off…

Wibbs

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119152963#Comment_119152963

Hip hop is/was at heart(and at its best IMHO) the rebel song of disenfranchised African American youth(and havin the craic too of course). In many ways it was a reaction to the failed promises of the Civil Rights era. They were the young next generation of those who had marched. Though avidly lapped up by While middle class suburban youth it could be argued that the more political hip hop was the requiem for the dead promise of the American Melting Pot. Much of it is about being apart and being seen as being apart by White American culture(or what that culture pretends to be). That many were or became Muslim(much of it the American scientology version) was a further rejection of WASP culture. Minus the Irony that Muslim slavers had been in play in Africa for far longer than European slavers and for longer after too. Hip hop beyond the easy listening Billboard stuff was and is designed to point out the BS and wind up the WASP culture.

Fandymo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119152088#Comment_119152088

You don’t know what “turkeys voting for Christmas” means?

If not, I doubt you’d understand any rebuttal of the drivel in your post.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119153014#Comment_119153014

I always wanted kids. When the recession hit I never thought "OMG how would I provide for them?" because a minimum wage job and part-time for the lady would have easily covered things at that time. Now? LOL, nah. And just seeing how things are going I absolutely have no interest in having kids here.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119153033#Comment_119153033

I've been watching a black history series on YouTube (pretty informative, I disagree with the obvious lean in certain aspects but anyway) and the presenter is at pains to explain things like that with the Africans being the slave-sellers etc. and how people use it as a "Gotcha!". Very US-centric. I can see why he feels like he needs to explain it, particularly to an American audience. Unfortunately so many in Europe want to pretend that American racism is the same as all. For us outside we can see that slavery itself wasn't a particularly "racial" thing on the global scale (yeah I know, they'd catch enemies from 8 miles away who were "different") but in America it then formed the basis for their disgusting centuries of I dunno, not even sure there's a word for their extreme racial bullshit.

So in summation, as Europeans we may say something true and in our frame of reference uncontroversial but to Americans the wording matters and means something different to them. As I said though, someone pointing out that the majority of people from a certain country land here and don't work will then be compared to the cop that killed George Floyd.

Wibbs

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119153104#Comment_119153104

Too often we have imported the screwed up American political language. Eejits in Ireland coming out with "MAGA" when the orange eejit was in power, other eejits going on about intersectionality etc. Same goes for the "race" stuff. I can understand a Black kid in "multicultural" Europe, inclduing Ireland getting into and buying into the US Rap stuff, because it can and often does speak to them and the failed promises of multiculturalism, but for those in wider Irish society to take on the US political daftness I can't understand.

Annasopra

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119152420#Comment_119152420

"Dragging us into the sewers" - Thats some very warped framing. All the language you come out with is fascinating really; it's all about demonising migrants, painting anyone who mildly supports immigration as a treasonous enemy of the state. Its like a container under siege really where only certain people are deemed in your worldview of any value or worth and everyone else isnt.

Annasopra

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119152501#Comment_119152501

That just about shows your argument really. Anyone who ever disagrees with you gets painted as mentally unhinged.

TomTomTim

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119154388#Comment_119154388

I've seen you call people similar far more times than I ever have, but the difference between me and you is that I'll at least make an argument along with my insult, yet you, you've nothing but insults.

getoutadodge

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119144748#Comment_119144748

Great analysis. Having lived many years in the Middle and Far East I can vouch for its accuracy. I've noticed most ethnic groups outside of Europeans are intrinsically group centric. If you suggest to say a Thai, a Turk or a Saudi or a South Asian that foreigners living in their midst should receive equal or even elevated rights they would find the concept totally preposterous. Try for example to gain full citizenship in said countries. Not easy. That fact that Europeans seem to do the very opposite they find very odd to put it mildly...but hey....will gladly take full advantage of it. I guess the events of the crazy 20th century led to the extreme inversion.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119154572#Comment_119154572

Oh, I'd say that Europeans/westerners are just as group centric as other ethnic or cultural groups. The demand for acceptance of foreign groups tends to come from the State, from aspects of philosophy, or "experts"/theorists supposedly representing their cultural group. I did a stint in Frankfurt when I was a young man, and while people were welcoming, there was always a reserve involved. Same again, with the French in Provence, welcoming/friendly but you would never be accepted as being French. I think the Irish have less of a reserve in such situations, probably because nationalism, on a racial or cultural basis, never really established itself here for long.. compared to other nations which were empires or had a more unified culture before being conquered by others.

The demand to accept foreign groups as the same as the native group tends to be external (political/moral) to the average representatives within a population. I'd say that tribalism is alive and well throughout all nations.. and if anything, is increasing with the rise of multiculturalism. Essentially, getting the opposite of what you wanted, because it's been handled so badly.

rgossip30

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119148617#Comment_119148617

The link does not include the Ukrainians and asylum seekers about 37K at present .

rgossip30

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119152552#Comment_119152552

A great welfare and accommodation system with a big government welcome for new arrivals .

freemickey

Someone saying "normal, natural change"????

If I could pick a more adnormal, unnatural change, it's be hard to top squeezing as many foreign people into a tiny island to artificially inflate property prices!

Lest thats not specific enough to point out the madness, how about the 40,000 non-eu migrants that may be "fast-tracked" for the stated purpose of doing jobs Irish people realised are unaffordable in the housing crisis?? A housing crisis fueled by too many imported people??

Does that Golden Nugget sound "normal" or "natural"??

Modern day slavery is all it is. And it has created a modern day version of English landlordism for Irish people into the bargain.

Only a few people profit off this, but my god the profits are unreal.

"Normal and natural"!

Look at these ethnic spicy chicken wings, multiculturalism is amazeballs! But don't look at beheadings, that's something something something mumble mumble mumble BUT LOOK AT THIS GUY FROM VENEZUELA DRINKING A PINT OF GUINNESS!

enricoh

God bless paddy, if the Brits say no head over to paddy next

https://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/supreme-court-overturns-passport-decision-for-child-of-refugee-who-gave-false-information-1315080.html

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119155053#Comment_119155053

Modern day slavery is all it is. And it has created a modern day version of English landlordism for Irish people into the bargain.

If so, it's the best paid, supported, and free form of slavery the world has ever seen. Nah.. you're exaggerating and taking on a rather silly stance. It's nothing, even remotely related to "slavery". Nor, is it the reintroduction of a feudal or serfdom system, which you're trying to suggest.

It's simply the encouragement of increasing the non-native born population within the country, which ties into their desire to increase the population of the country. They're not interested in waiting for the native population to naturally meet their targets, so they bring in people from outside. It's a rather stupid and short-sighted policy (both the migration and the population increase), but it's not going to go away.

Only a few people profit off this, but my god the profits are unreal

Actually, quite a few people will profit from this, including the 30-40k refugees, of whom, let's say half decide to remain in Ireland. The step up in living standards, income potential, and lack of discrimination/corruption in Ireland is a major improvement for the lives of Ukrainians coming here. And there will be positives from their introduction as many will start small-medium sized companies here. The issue is whether they end up in the low paying jobs, and remain there.. which is possible.. but it's not going to be the case for everyone involved.

Look at these ethnic spicy chicken wings, multiculturalism is amazeballs! But don't look at beheadings, that's something something something mumble mumble mumble BUT LOOK AT THIS GUY FROM VENEZUELA DRINKING A PINT OF GUINNESS!

I've always been opposed on this thread to multiculturalism in the way it has been implemented so far... but there are a range of benefits to multiculturalism if the negatives are anticipated and resolved. I've always found it interesting that the posters so, in favour of multiculturalism never really cover the benefits, but I suspect it's because they can't step away from embracing a position of absolute support for the idea. The simple truth is that everything brings positives and negatives to the table.. and while Irish people could manage quite well all by themselves, it's simply impractical to expect that to be the case in the modern world. Especially, after the last 20 years of enforced migration.

Multiculturalism, properly implemented and maintained, can introduce a diverse population capable of contributing to the economy, and society. It's already happened in places like Singapore, who have become an economic powerhouse because of the mixing of native and foreign populations. And, honestly, there's no real reason why Ireland couldn't do the same, except for this desire to pander to minority groups, and bow our heads, cap in hand to the EU for signs of virtue.

We need proper research into the trends relating to different cultural groups, identifying which groups are more inclined towards certain industries, but also, which ones tend to produce more balanced second-generation children, who in turn, can integrate better into western society. It's like the difference between African families, and Asian families. Both have very strong family traditions, but Asians typically manage much better in Western nations. Why is that the case? Is it something that we can directly influence? Can we steer particular groupings towards certain industries which statistics show them to be more successful in?

And then, there's the aspect of visas, residency, and citizenship. Surely, entry into a country shouldn't mean that they're here forever. Their suitability to remain should be examined every three years, in line with the renewal of their visas, but in reality there's little real examination of such suitability. And the standards/requirements for residency or citizenship remain quite low, and without any serious restrictions. We have probation periods in most employment roles, why not the introduction of similar probation periods for people wanting to remain long-term in Ireland, to ensure we get the "right" kinds of people, who avoid crime, or can sufficiently support themselves without needing welfare supports.

Multiculturalism could work.. and work really well.. if it was approached from a position of strength. A position where we recognise the value of remaining in Ireland, and demanding the best from foreign groups before they become eligible to stay. However, western multiculturalism in the present form, is and will be a disaster..

getoutadodge

One bizarre manifestation I noticed attending large public events in Dublin recently is that the private security staff seem to be entirely South Asians. Such was the case at St Patricks Day, the Easter Rising Commemoration. an event in Dublin Castle and yesterday at the Bloomsday crowd management at Heuston. Same applies to university campuses like Grangegorman. Is it case of no Irish need apply? Maybe their employer (some stateless corporate?) could hand out batons, hard hats and khaki shorts and it would be a comical take on British born colonial police herding the natives in mid nineteenth century Bombay.

Miadhc

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119156239#Comment_119156239

Because they will work an illegal amount of hours every week, won't complain about the s**t wages, won't ask for a break, won't join a union. They are an employers wet dream.

Why hire Irish who will look for fair wages and good working conditions when you have an endless supply of Indians and Pakistanis who will do the job for peanuts.

It's been a race to the bottom in the security industry for many years.

rgossip30

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119156299#Comment_119156299

I worked in a number of security companies that employed Africans . They all got fired eventually 2 even had an internet scam going using the company's internet .

Dyr

Dublin as coddle ordinary lad who was defintely just on holiday when the Egyptians locked him up has been doing us proud recently

So glad we got him back

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/hate-preacher-speaks-at-irish-mosque-gczkg50x8

Mike Murdock

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119158623#Comment_119158623

Sure he was just on an outing to the cinema, got lost and tripped onto that stage. And sure what could he do when someone he’d never seen or met before handed him a microphone and a sheet of paper with a speech on it?

He was so terrified sure he had to play along as if he supported the Muslim Brotherhood!

Miadhc

https://twitter.com/Bob_cart124/status/1532863615430279168?s=20&t=w4gk5irAGyfeASWrdDqVzw

Shahid Ali makes some good points here. 

These Muslims are protesting the movie The Lady of Heaven outside Cineworld in Bradford (24.7% Muslim population officially).

Ali says the film has insulted Muslims and that they have a right not be insulted. Now where did he get that idea? 🤔

The comments are full of British people attempting to correct Ali — that the UK has freedom of speech and that there is no right not be insulted. But they're wrong as the case of Alison Chabloz proves.

Chabloz was convicted for writing three songs which district judge, John Zani, said he was satisfied were grossly offensive and that Chabloz intended to insult Jewish people. Chambloz has a different perspective on WW2 like the makers of this film have a different perspective on Islamic history to these protesting Muslims.

If the Campaign Against Antisemitism are allowed to take offence at her art on behalf of Jewish people and have her prosecuted, why can't these Muslims do likewise?

Ali is also unhappy with the new trend of race-swapping historical figures lol

https://twitter.com/aliasgharhanafi/status/1532827790084653061?s=20&t=G1dqTI98-bShhbuT0a28UA

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119160916#Comment_119160916

These Muslims are protesting the movie The Lady of Heaven outside Cineworld in Bradford (24.7% Muslim population officially).

24.7% of Bradfords population is Muslim? Wow. I wonder if people have really considered the impact of that kind of percentage being represented by a non-native group? (not necessarily Muslim, but that of any foreign grouping)

Ali says the film has insulted Muslims and that they have a right not be insulted. 

They have the right to appeal through official channels to block the viewings of the film, the same as any other group. However, if their claim was denied, then they should accept that. Did they go through official channels to block the showing of the film in Bradford?

The comments are full of British people attempting to correct Ali — that the UK has freedom of speech and that there is no right not be insulted. But they're wrong as the case of Alison Chabloz proves

The case of Alison Chabloz proves nothing, because British law is not determined by individual instances occurring in society. The UK has freedom of speech (although it's different to the US concept), there is no right to be insulted or not insulted, however, all western nations have processes in place to allow offended groups to appeal the showing of films, or any publication of media, within the boundaries of the law, and the protection of particular groups, including religious groups. That's not to say that such an appeal would succeed, as the UK does have freedom of speech, and that includes the rights of the company showing the film.

If the Campaign Against Antisemitism are allowed to take offence at her art on behalf of Jewish people and have her prosecuted, why can't these Muslims do likewise?

They can. However, their case will be judged on the facts of the law, not based on their outrage.

The UK really needs to get a handle on it's minority groups (although 25% pop in a city doesn't seem minor to me), and the rights of religious/protected groups. Their own indigenous values on freedom of speech, defamation, etc need to be protected, more than the supposed rights of offended foreign groups.

This is the nation that produced Spitting Image, Blackadder, etc. but a film can't be shown in local cinemas that negatively portrays the Islamic faith? Meh.

Anyway, why don't the Muslims just not go to see the film? After all, it's not being shown on national TV. It's within a cinema construct, which means that people have a choice to see it or not. It's not being waved in their faces...

Tonesjones

Deloitte have a full page on todays business post :

"The many benefits of encouraging an international workforce to come here"

The gist is migrants are great, we need more, non eu applications should be encouraged and increased. Money is good, profit is the only target . Social cohesion is irrelevant etc

It's garbage.