What are your views on Multiculturalism in Ireland? - Threadbanned User List in OP

Pixel Eater

When discussing multiculturalism, an important aspect that is usually overlooked is just how weak our indigenous culture actually is. We don't speak Irish; our two main festivals - St Patrick's Day and Halloween - have become dumbed down and Americanizied. Many of our other traditions and customs are extinct; even naming our children Irish names is becoming less popular. The GAA is probably the strongest element of traditional culture in modern Ireland.

We can't blame recent African/Muslim/Asian immigrants for this, we've done it ourselves.

Slowyourrole

Pixel Eater wrote: »

When discussing multiculturalism, an important aspect that is usually overlooked is just how weak our indigenous culture actually is. We don't speak Irish; our two main festivals - St Patrick's Day and Halloween - have become dumbed down and Americanizied. Many of our other traditions and customs are extinct; even naming our children Irish names is becoming less popular. The GAA is probably the strongest element of traditional culture in modern Ireland.

We can't blame recent African/Muslim/Asian immigrants for this, we've done it ourselves.

True. People often have trouble defining what our culture is and what aspect of it they fear is in danger. No better example of this was during the nationalist protests outside the Dáil were nobody could speak Irish when offered an interview by TG4.

Clarence Boddiker

Pixel Eater wrote: »

When discussing multiculturalism, an important aspect that is usually overlooked is just how weak our indigenous culture actually is. We don't speak Irish; our two main festivals - St Patrick's Day and Halloween - have become dumbed down and Americanizied. Many of our other traditions and customs are extinct; even naming our children Irish names is becoming less popular. The GAA is probably the strongest element of traditional culture in modern Ireland.

We can't blame recent African/Muslim/Asian immigrants for this, we've done it ourselves.

Absolutely, we've become fully Americanised, de-cultured, de-racinated, where Ireland is nothing but an economic zone and consumer culture reigns supreme.
Probably the most Americanised nation on earth, in fact I remember a number of years ago reading that within Europe we were regarded by other Europeans as the most Americanised people in the EU.
This process started a long time ago too, its not solely on the shoulders of the current crop of millennial/gen z who seem to adopt and import American cultural ideas wholesale.

Pixel Eater

Pixel Eater wrote: »

When discussing multiculturalism, an important aspect that is usually overlooked is just how weak our indigenous culture actually is. We don't speak Irish; our two main festivals - St Patrick's Day and Halloween - have become dumbed down and Americanizied. Many of our other traditions and customs are extinct; even naming our children Irish names is becoming less popular. The GAA is probably the strongest element of traditional culture in modern Ireland.

We can't blame recent African/Muslim/Asian immigrants for this, we've done it ourselves.

All true, but genuine culture is more about perspectives on common values, and acceptable modes of behavior. Oh sure, people will talk about music, food, etc as being aspects of culture, but when we look at "western" culture, there is a commonality to the basic values present, which are often missing in other "non-western" nations.

For example, the perception of the value of human life. In western nations, typically, that value is considered quite high. Whereas, when you travel through Asia and Africa, that value drops considerably. It's not so much the need to integrate into enjoying Irish food or music. I know plenty of Irish people who dislike both. They're still Irish. However, they do hold to similar basic values with minor differences.

So, when I talk about migrants integrating, I'm far more interested that they're accepting aspects like gender/racial equality, values regarding human life, the importance of protecting children, even the age at which a child becomes an adult... These are aspects that truly differentiate between cultures... and many migrants won't agree with many of our values.

Duffy the Vampire Slayer

Pixel Eater wrote: »

When discussing multiculturalism, an important aspect that is usually overlooked is just how weak our indigenous culture actually is. We don't speak Irish; our two main festivals - St Patrick's Day and Halloween - have become dumbed down and Americanizied. Many of our other traditions and customs are extinct; even naming our children Irish names is becoming less popular. The GAA is probably the strongest element of traditional culture in modern Ireland.

We can't blame recent African/Muslim/Asian immigrants for this, we've done it ourselves.

I doubt it. There are far more traditional Irish names in use than before when everyone was called John or Mary.

biko

Pixel Eater wrote: »

When discussing multiculturalism, an important aspect that is usually overlooked is just how weak our indigenous culture actually is. We don't speak Irish; our two main festivals - St Patrick's Day and Halloween - have become dumbed down and Americanizied. Many of our other traditions and customs are extinct; even naming our children Irish names is becoming less popular. The GAA is probably the strongest element of traditional culture in modern Ireland.

We can't blame recent African/Muslim/Asian immigrants for this, we've done it ourselves.

On the contrary, I think Irish culture is very strong and thriving.
It is well known and liked worldwide.
It is distinct from English culture.
As you say, we have Irish sports.
Possibly this culture is more pronounced in the west rather than the pale, but it's not going away soon as in fact many immigrants embrace this culture instead of rejecting it.

Clarence Boddiker

Clarence Boddiker wrote: »

Absolutely, we've become fully Americanised, de-cultured, de-racinated, where Ireland is nothing but an economic zone and consumer culture reigns supreme.
Probably the most Americanised nation on earth, in fact I remember a number of years ago reading that within Europe we were regarded by other Europeans as the most Americanised people in the EU.
This process started a long time ago too, its not solely on the shoulders of the current crop of millennial/gen z who seem to adopt and import American cultural ideas wholesale.

Bah. We're not americanised. Not even close to being so. There's never been an American population of size to generate that kind of influence over Irish people. In spite of a desire not to be, we still share a closer relationship with Britain (and British culture) than America. Watching American shows isn't enough for americanisation, otherwise the whole world would be.

Duffy the Vampire Slayer

Clarence Boddiker wrote: »

Absolutely, we've become fully Americanised, de-cultured, de-racinated, where Ireland is nothing but an economic zone and consumer culture reigns supreme.
Probably the most Americanised nation on earth, in fact I remember a number of years ago reading that within Europe we were regarded by other Europeans as the most Americanised people in the EU.
This process started a long time ago too, its not solely on the shoulders of the current crop of millennial/gen z who seem to adopt and import American cultural ideas wholesale.

Surely that would be Canada.

RandomName2

Deleted User wrote: »

Bah. We're not americanised. Not even close to being so. There's never been an American population of size to generate that kind of influence over Irish people. In spite of a desire not to be, we still share a closer relationship with Britain (and British culture) than America. Watching American shows isn't enough for americanisation, otherwise the whole world would be.

Counter intuitively, those who are most liberal in relation to immigration are also likely to be the most Americanized.

Woke culture is absolutely 100% American. Guilt for minority discrimination is predominantly an American thing. We had marches here against the police murdering a black man half-way across the world.

Sure some other sh1te Americanisms are coming in. When you see the far-right here being anti-vaccination they are just parroting what they hear in America. It's waving a flag to belong to a particular tribe, only the anti-vaccinators would be waving don't-thread-on-me-flags instead of the multiculturalism ones espoused by the other side.

Both tribes are fcking idiotic. Wanting to belong to an American tribe is inherently idiotic. You see Americans tearing themselves apart and say 'hey I want a part of that' and start campaigning for (or against) unisex toilets, despite your innate lack of interest in unisex toilets?

Multiculturalism has its place. Ireland has always been a bit multicultural, what with a joined English and Gaelic identity. Those saying that we have no culture because we don't speak Irish much are off their rockers. Do you even read?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Irish_writers

But as much as multiculturalism is a boon, it is obviously a source of strife. Northern Ireland is the embodiment of what strife multiculturalism can bring if you have huge minorities that both want to wrest free of each other (even when they speak the same language, pray to the same God, and are the same race). For multiculturalism to work there has to be proper integration. I don't mean this as some dog-whistle (another sh1tty American term) in relation to being anti-immigrant. I mean that you can appropriate excellent aspects of other cultures and communities. Drawing up the drawbridge and hiding behind your walls is okay, but it limits how far you can advance in terms of arts, culture, science, and industry.

Nonetheless, being able to point to a neighborhood and say 'that place is predominantly X' where X is some religion or particular ethnicity, is something that is asking for trouble. If that neighborhood is disadvantaged, then you're already a bit too late.

RandomName2

RandomName2 wrote: »

Counter intuitively, those who are most liberal in relation to immigration are also likely to be the most Americanized.

Woke culture is absolutely 100% American. Guilt for minority discrimination is predominantly an American thing. We had marches here against the police murdering a black man half-way across the world.

Sure some other sh1te Americanisms are coming in. When you see the far-right here being anti-vaccination they are just parroting what they hear in America. It's waving a flag to belong to a particular tribe, only the anti-vaccinators would be waving don't-thread-on-me-flags instead of the multiculturalism ones espoused by the other side.

Both tribes are fcking idiotic. Wanting to belong to an American tribe is inherently idiotic. You see Americans tearing themselves apart and say 'hey I want a part of that' and start campaigning for (or against) unisex toilets, despite your innate lack of interest in unisex toilets?

I'd completely agree with you.. although to be fair, the woke crowd, or the alt left/right crowds, typically represent a rather small percentage of the Irish population. The problem with Irish people is that they want to avoid hassle/stress in their lives, so they're easily swept along with causes, because silence is assumed as support.

Multiculturalism has its place. Ireland has always been a bit multicultural, what with a joined English and Gaelic identity. Those saying that we have no culture because we don't speak Irish much are off their rockers. Do you even read?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Irish_writers

But as much as multiculturalism is a boon, it is obviously a source of strife. Northern Ireland is the embodiment of what strife multiculturalism can bring if you have huge minorities that both want to wrest free of each other (even when they speak the same language, pray to the same God, and are the same race). For multiculturalism to work there has to be proper integration. I don't mean this as some dog-whistle (another sh1tty American term) in relation to being anti-immigrant. I mean that you can appropriate excellent aspects of other cultures and communities. Drawing up the drawbridge and hiding behind your walls is okay, but it limits how far you can advance in terms of arts, culture, science, and industry.

Nonetheless, being able to point to a neighborhood and say 'that place is predominantly X' where X is some religion or particular ethnicity, is something that is asking for trouble. If that neighborhood is disadvantaged, then you're already a bit too late.

Great post.

weldoninhio

Pixel Eater wrote: »

When discussing multiculturalism, an important aspect that is usually overlooked is just how weak our indigenous culture actually is. We don't speak Irish; our two main festivals - St Patrick's Day and Halloween - have become dumbed down and Americanizied. Many of our other traditions and customs are extinct; even naming our children Irish names is becoming less popular. The GAA is probably the strongest element of traditional culture in modern Ireland.

We can't blame recent African/Muslim/Asian immigrants for this, we've done it ourselves.

Our attitudes and personalities are part of our culture. I read somewhere recently, can’t for the life of me remember where, but it was a tourist who was observing the interactions between the Irish and some other tourists. She was saying that our way of interacting was so natural that you wouldn’t even notice it, but so personal and warm that it put absolutely everyone at ease and relaxed them as they should be on holiday. Rather than a yes sir, no sir, have a nice day sir.

Pixel Eater

Deleted User wrote: »

All true, but genuine culture is more about perspectives on common values, and acceptable modes of behavior.

So, when I talk about migrants integrating, I'm far more interested that they're accepting aspects like gender/racial equality, values regarding human life, the importance of protecting children, even the age at which a child becomes an adult... These are aspects that truly differentiate between cultures... and many migrants won't agree with many of our values.

I agree but that's a different thing; I'm specifically taking about more tangible cultural expressions like festivals, folk traditions, symbols, music etc.

Duffy the Vampire Slayer wrote: »

I doubt it. There are far more traditional Irish names in use than before when everyone was called John or Mary.

Definitely not. CSO release the most popular names list each year, John and Mary is now Jack and Emily. Irish names are very much in the minority plus all the Kaydens, Reeces and Lexis...

biko wrote: »

On the contrary, I think Irish culture is very strong and thriving.

I appreciate your positivity but I think you're in denial on that one.

Pixel Eater

RandomName2 wrote: »

Counter intuitively, those who are most liberal in relation to immigration are also likely to be the most Americanized.

Woke culture is absolutely 100% American. Guilt for minority discrimination is predominantly an American thing. We had marches here against the police murdering a black man half-way across the world.

Sure some other sh1te Americanisms are coming in. When you see the far-right here being anti-vaccination they are just parroting what they hear in America. It's waving a flag to belong to a particular tribe, only the anti-vaccinators would be waving don't-thread-on-me-flags instead of the multiculturalism ones espoused by the other side.

Both tribes are fcking idiotic. Wanting to belong to an American tribe is inherently idiotic. You see Americans tearing themselves apart and say 'hey I want a part of that' and start campaigning for (or against) unisex toilets, despite your innate lack of interest in unisex toilets?

Multiculturalism has its place. Ireland has always been a bit multicultural, what with a joined English and Gaelic identity. Those saying that we have no culture because we don't speak Irish much are off their rockers. Do you even read?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Irish_writers

But as much as multiculturalism is a boon, it is obviously a source of strife. Northern Ireland is the embodiment of what strife multiculturalism can bring if you have huge minorities that both want to wrest free of each other (even when they speak the same language, pray to the same God, and are the same race). For multiculturalism to work there has to be proper integration. I don't mean this as some dog-whistle (another sh1tty American term) in relation to being anti-immigrant. I mean that you can appropriate excellent aspects of other cultures and communities. Drawing up the drawbridge and hiding behind your walls is okay, but it limits how far you can advance in terms of arts, culture, science, and industry.

Nonetheless, being able to point to a neighborhood and say 'that place is predominantly X' where X is some religion or particular ethnicity, is something that is asking for trouble. If that neighborhood is disadvantaged, then you're already a bit too late.

I hope you're not refering to me because I didn't say that. Language is a very big aspect of a nation's culture and would normally act like a shield against the sheer amount of Anglo-American culture but we don't have it (or at least don't use it).

Mostly agree with your post otherwise though.

Pixel Eater

Pixel Eater wrote: »

I agree but that's a different thing; I'm specifically taking about more tangible cultural expressions like festivals, folk traditions, symbols, music etc.

I understand but... for me, these don't really represent the actual culture when we consider integration, and multiculturalism.

I live in China which has a rich cultural heritage. As the Chinese love to remark, they've got 5k years of history behind their overall civilisation, and every day, there are opportunities to see dozens of representations from 56 different cultural ethnic backgrounds. However, the cultural revolution, and Mao's efforts, divorced most Chinese from their historical cultural connection. So, while there are literally thousands of those representations (food, dance, etc), it's a shallow connection.

Instead, for me, after living here so long, it's their modern culture that is most important. The culture of silence which is so common. The widespread nationalism combined with a guilty admiration for western accomplishments. The underground rebel scene which is everywhere but evaporates the moment it approaches anything remotely meaning anything for their society.

For me, culture isn't the representations of food, dance, music, although they do factor in, but in a rapidly international world, they've become diluted. For example, I remember my grandmother singing without music in the local bar.. that old creepy voice that could invoke so much emotion. That's mostly disappeared from Ireland, but the emotional chemistry remains within Irish people. That sensitivity that many Irish hide behind sarcasm, alcoholism, or violence.

Dunno. The more I live abroad, the less I find the cultural activities to be important, but rather the traits/behaviors that are common on a national level among native groups.

Clarence Boddiker

Deleted User wrote: »

Bah. We're not americanised. Not even close to being so. There's never been an American population of size to generate that kind of influence over Irish people. In spite of a desire not to be, we still share a closer relationship with Britain (and British culture) than America. Watching American shows isn't enough for americanisation, otherwise the whole world would be.

Well yes, Anglo-American is more accurate. You don't hear many Irish kids with UK accents but a large swathe of the youth speak with American accents.
A lot of African-Irish kids speak with British/London accents.
What I meant though was the American culture of liberalism, consumerism, Globalism etc seems to be extremely embedded in Ireland. Even this notion that "Anyone can be Irish" which is prevalent in Ireland today is a very American concept.

JasonStatham

Yeah, a lot of foreigners get passports here, but they'll never be Irish. Sorry.

weldoninhio

Looks like Drogheda is getting a new direct provision centre. Lucky them.

JasonStatham

JasonStatham wrote: »

Yeah, a lot of foreigners get passports here, but they'll never be Irish. Sorry.

That's less to do with being able to become Irish, and more to do with not wanting to be Irish.

But then, with the way Nationalism, or racial/cultural pride has gone, it's kinda hard to promote reasons for them to become more Irish.

Clarence Boddiker wrote: »

Well yes, Anglo-American is more accurate. You don't hear many Irish kids with UK accents but a large swathe of the youth speak with American accents.
A lot of African-Irish kids speak with British/London accents.

Strangely enough, I do hear plenty of Irish people with hints of English accents altering their own native accents. And I'd say it's the same with the Irish adopting aspects of American accents. Just prior to covid shutting down Ireland, I traveled a lot (reconnecting with people around Ireland), and I heard mostly Irish people with strong Irish accents, along with some showing hints of American or English accents depending on individual words/phrases being used.

What I meant though was the American culture of liberalism, consumerism, Globalism etc seems to be extremely embedded in Ireland. Even this notion that "Anyone can be Irish" which is prevalent in Ireland today is a very American concept.

Except that, with the exception of liberalism, each of the others comes from other sources. Consumerism is a global thing, that comes with wealth. And Globalism mostly comes from membership with the EU, and the push for international investment... that a lot of that investment is from US companies (since the actual numbers of American staff is tiny), doesn't change that the influence comes from many sources.

And the anybody can be Irish could be traced as much to Australia as the US...

Nah. I know that there is American influence.. it's worldwide since their propaganda (hollywood, media etc) is extremely strong. However, the US is very good at taking ownership of ideas/concepts that also happened elsewhere. Whenever I return to Ireland, I feel that the Irish are actually becoming closer to mainland Europe, than the US.

Duffy the Vampire Slayer

Pixel Eater wrote: »

Definitely not. CSO release the most popular names list each year, John and Mary is now Jack and Emily. Irish names are very much in the minority plus all the Kaydens, Reeces and Lexis...

Ok, but John and Mary aren't Irish to begin with. There are definitely way more Aoifes, Eoins, Caoimhes etc in the younger generations than the older ones. This is why Irish names and gaelscoils are often mocked as being popular amongst trendy D4 types.

ChelseaRentBoy

Funny how direct provision centres never get built in places like Malahide or Foxrock. It's almost like they don't want them living amongst them or something.

weldoninhio

ChelseaRentBoy wrote: »

Funny how direct provision centres never get built in places like Malahide or Foxrock. It's almost like they don't want them living amongst them or something.

Can’t have them living with the creme de la creme. New one in Drogheda is right in the centre of the town. On the main shopping street that’s in line to be pedestrianised. Imagine one on Grafton Street.

nullzero

ChelseaRentBoy wrote: »

Funny how direct provision centres never get built in places like Malahide or Foxrock. It's almost like they don't want them living amongst them or something.

The people who live in Foxrock and Malahide think everywhere else in this country is one big direct provision centre.

Bobtheman

Immigration is a touchy subject everywhere.
I do think the whole refugee program is out of date. You have people who somehow arrive in Ireland claiming refugee status after skipping over ten nations and somehow arriving in Ireland? It's a very random system.
In my experience non nationals provide intelligence plus work ethic. Never met anybody from abroad whose sole purpose is to ride the state.
But meeting refugees from a continent away does breed cynicism. What was wrong with the country next door if your life was in danger??

ChelseaRentBoy

Bobtheman wrote: »

Immigration is a touchy subject everywhere.
I do think the whole refugee program is out of date. You have people who somehow arrive in Ireland claiming refugee status after skipping over ten nations and somehow arriving in Ireland? It's a very random system.
In my experience non nationals provide intelligence plus work ethic. Never met anybody from abroad whose sole purpose is to ride the state.
But meeting refugees from a continent away does breed cynicism. What was wrong with the country next door if your life was in danger??

It is in its hole random. FG some time ago brought out a policy to massively increase the population of the country by 2030. No better way than filling it with cheap labour refugees who breed like rabbits.

Pixel Eater

Deleted User wrote: »

I understand but... for me, these don't really represent the actual culture when we consider integration, and multiculturalism.

I live in China which has a rich cultural heritage. As the Chinese love to remark, they've got 5k years of history behind their overall civilisation, and every day, there are opportunities to see dozens of representations from 56 different cultural ethnic backgrounds. However, the cultural revolution, and Mao's efforts, divorced most Chinese from their historical cultural connection. So, while there are literally thousands of those representations (food, dance, etc), it's a shallow connection.

Instead, for me, after living here so long, it's their modern culture that is most important. The culture of silence which is so common. The widespread nationalism combined with a guilty admiration for western accomplishments. The underground rebel scene which is everywhere but evaporates the moment it approaches anything remotely meaning anything for their society.

For me, culture isn't the representations of food, dance, music, although they do factor in, but in a rapidly international world, they've become diluted. For example, I remember my grandmother singing without music in the local bar.. that old creepy voice that could invoke so much emotion. That's mostly disappeared from Ireland, but the emotional chemistry remains within Irish people. That sensitivity that many Irish hide behind sarcasm, alcoholism, or violence.

Dunno. The more I live abroad, the less I find the cultural activities to be important, but rather the traits/behaviors that are common on a national level among native groups.

I completely understand what you mean. For example, I find the Irish be be mostly very friendly and open but also very negative and very self loathing. Another example of a national trait is our car culture over public transport; we are far closer to North America in that regards than Europe, although things are slightly changing.
But cultural activities are extemely important to a peoples' national indentity. Plus these cultural activities often reflect the behavioural aspect of culture to which you refer.

Pixel Eater

The theory goes that enforced multiculturalism erodes and dilutes the native and distintive national culture thus the world, ironically, will become less diverse. And what will our new multicultural society actually be like, just another version of North America?

AllForIt

Pixel Eater wrote: »

The theory goes that enforced multiculturalism erodes and dilutes the native and distintive national culture thus the world, ironically, will become less diverse. And what will our new multicultural society actually be like, just another version of North America?

This is a point not made often enough. The world is diverse as it is, naturally. If you make every society the same then nowhere is diverse.

TomTomTim

AllForIt wrote: »

This is a point not made often enough. The world is diverse as it is, naturally. If you make every society the same then nowhere is diverse.

You're using the actual definition of diverse, to far left zealots it usually means less white people, so in that context Europe will be very "diverse"

Pixel Eater

AllForIt wrote: »

This is a point not made often enough. The world is diverse as it is, naturally. If you make every society the same then nowhere is diverse.

In a globalised world - and we are more globalised than most - a certain amount of multiculturism is inevitable, and, if I'm truely honest, a good thing even for the food alone!

But I'd far rather the world be a 'mosaic' rather than a 'melting pot', this would preserve much more culture and diversity than American style multiculturism.

weldoninhio

Pixel Eater wrote: »

In a globalised world - and we are more globalised than most - a certain amount of multiculturism is inevitable, and, if I'm truely honest, a good thing even for the food alone!

But I'd far rather the world be a 'mosaic' rather than a 'melting pot', this would preserve much more culture and diversity than American style multiculturism.

I’m sure the victims in Rotherham, Luton, Rochdale are delighted with the new foods.