What are your views on Multiculturalism in Ireland? - Threadbanned User List in OP
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It's nice to see they have so much more to offer, not just food. And a truly multicultural event, with people from all cultures, not just one.
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The amount of imigrants in the country didnt cause your family members to lose medical cards. Their income did. End of story.
It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.
Terry Pratchet
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Their means has scarcely changed, they are both retired many years..
id suggest your lack of reasoned comprehension and understanding is a greater blight on this thread…nothing wrong with my conclusions.
Yes I’ll insist as I see fit on relating my own views and experiences.. you can think what you like… : ) no problem….your agenda has been see through for a time now :)
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I disagree, their income is simply their pensions… the number of people, demanding medical cards is why they lost them…they had them and qualified for them years…
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Ah right, so the xenophobic slant is that this I suppose:
"At this rate there will be over 300,000 new PPS numbers issued by the end of 2022, and over 75% of them will be to people of other than Irish nationality.
So far this year, 27% of new PPS numbers have been issued to people who are not Irish or any other EU nationality, and not among those claiming refugee status from Ukraine.
This is an unprecedented demographic change for the Irish state, and indeed the most significant for the island as a whole since the middle of the 19th century following the catastrophe of the Great Hunger."
It might actually be of interest to Irish people that while we're in the middle of an unprecendented housing crisis that we're going to take in 225000 people. Maybe find that news article on RTE. 😂
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And the funding allocated to pensioners... which is going to be threatened by other demands such as services provided to an increased population, many of whom who are on welfare, or supplements (in addition to their income), in addition to the strain of the dependents they bring with them or who join them later.
End of story.. from someone who doesn't care what the details entail.. because it doesn't fit the agenda being pushed. At least, they're consistent in some things.
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And yet they failed a standardised means test which has been around for years.
You can throw your weekly tantrum about this but it doesn't change the fact that they no longer qualified for the medical card based on their assessed means.
For it to be as you say, you should be able to offer up some evidence that the criteria of assessment has changed as a result of inward migration. By all means, share this evidence
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No tantrum, simply a discussion. Please stop being disingenuous :) it’s very see through now sadly.
They no longer qualified ? they simply should have, that’s the issue.
the evidence is simply that each person who arrives gets given one… they have to come from somewhere. You can do the maths. The health service costs us citizens about 23 billion to run per annum. We should be running it to primarily help and support citizens. Those who pay for it.
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Everyone knows Strumms family members didnt lose their medical cards because theres too many immigrants in the country. There wasnt a big increase in Irish old people losing their medical cards. Its laughable that you back up this fairytale pretense that what Strumm says is true. Its not true.
It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.
Terry Pratchet
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Nah. The only disgenuous posts here are that immigrants are to blame for losing medical cards. Its not true.
It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.
Terry Pratchet
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The blame is the demand on our health services… when the population is being increased by tens to hundred of thousands a year and when EVERY one of those arriving is entitled to a medical card ? You don’t need to be a mathematician to see what the root cause is.
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This thread has shown the increases in the Irish population over the last decade. Where does the resources come from to support them, and their dependents? At other points throughout the thread, the stats on unemployment, need for disability benefits, or supplementary income in addition to their basic wage have been posted... when we're still encouraging large numbers of relatively unskilled labour to come to the country, at a time when rental prices are crazy, inflation is rising. affecting the general cost of living. Bad enough for Irish people, but pretty nasty for any immigrant on minimum wage or those here illegally (who still have access to many supports). Any balanced appraisal of such immigration will recognise that there is a definite net loss on such immigrants for decades until they've been here long enough to contribute for what they've received. In the meantime though, it's a loss and a loss that needs to come from somewhere.
The mystical magic tree doesn't exist.. The Native population are seen as being best able to provide for themselves (due to generational wealth) so the priority is given over to those who can't. Hence the means test.. which is biased along associations, or familial links regardless of the individual circumstances of the applicants (I experienced this when applying for jobseekers).
I don't know the ins and outs of Strumms situation. It's impossible to provide enough details on here to really give us true insight into what happened.. however, he's a decent poster, rarely jumping to extremes, so I'd accept his claims as being accurate. You choose not to. Fine. But i completely disagree with your need to shut him down with your "end of story" position.. You've disagreed.. it's time to move on, unless you can provide some actual evidence that disproves his claims, which is likely impossible. TBH it costs you nothing to let him say it and move on to something else.
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Any balanced appraisal of such immigration will recognise that there is a definite net loss on such immigrants for decades until they've been here long enough to contribute for what they've received. In the meantime though, it's a loss and a loss that needs to come from somewhere.
That’s not a balanced appraisal, it’s the conclusion of someone who either doesn’t know what they’re talking about, or someone who has an agenda of their own to promote. I know you know better than the inaccurate portrayal of economics you’ve given in your post, because it’s not a net loss. Investment in the next generation comes from the previous generation, or in a much shorter and simpler time frame - in the annual budget. That’s why the idea of anyone being deprived of support as a consequence of other people getting support, is nonsense - the person or people who are deprived of support, either aren’t eligible for it, or don’t qualify for it according to the criteria set by the department.
There’s no false dilemma of any non-existent money tree with the idea being that if Government increases spending on health, it has to decrease spending on education or welfare or whatever or any number of supports that it budgets to provide for in the coming year or years. That’s why the idea of investment in public services as though it’s a net loss caused at an individual level is not worth entertaining any more than the idea of providing one group of people with medical cards as just one of many temporary measures in accordance with Irish law, has never meant that another group must be deprived of any supports they previously received as though the issue is one of a finite amount of public funding available to Government. It wouldn’t matter who’s in Government, they would still have to abide by Irish law and the States international obligations.
Holding Government responsible for it’s decisions is one thing, holding Government responsible for a policy decision which meant their family members didn’t qualify for a medical card, and immigrants do on account of it being a temporary measure to provide support for them in accordance with Irish law conceived before there was ever the unprecedented number of refugees, is just bunkum. There’s other words for it, but I’m not going to be hard at all on Strumms as I don’t think it’s necessary. I’d prefer to help someone out regardless of their circumstances. Hell I was out last night and I met a guy I hadn’t seen in 10 years, an immigrant who was wasn’t long in the country at that time. Turns out things hadn’t been going so well for him lately so he was working as security personnel. I took his details and I told him we’d work something out, because that’s what you do, or I do anyway, and I’d expect anyone else would do the same.
I dunno where you get the idea that people who are seen as being able to provide for themselves are “the native population”, as distinct from immigrants, because of generational wealth? What generational wealth? It’s a means test. On paper they don’t care whether it’s a native or an immigrant, it’s an assessment of means. If one has means over and above the thresholds, they don’t qualify, don’t take it personally, because it’s not personal. The only time there’s anything personal in the whole process is when you’re dealing with the person on the other side of the counter, or table during an interview or whatever.
Nobody needs to find evidence to disprove Strumms claims, because they’re BS, and when I say they’re BS, I’m not referring to his claim that his family members no longer qualified for a medical card, I know it happens a lot, in one case I remember a family being deprived of support where they previously qualified for it because their child could now dress themselves without assistance from a carer. We all have stories, and it’d break your fcuking heart, but to blame Government because they’re obligated to provide for immigrants who aren’t in a position to provide for themselves? While I understand the need to look for someone to blame for what we feel is an injustice, it promotes prejudice and discrimination against that group.
There IS a cost to everyone personally by letting people off with putting that kind of nonsense out there, and it’s paid at the expense of Irish society becoming more intolerant of the group which are being portrayed as somehow gaining an advantage over the group who that person is portraying as being treated unfairly, or the idea that it’s costing them anything financially to support others. It’s not, any more than it’s not costing anyone to provide support for other people’s children in terms of health, education, welfare and so on. That’s how a society functions, it’s part of being socially responsible, it’s part of what it means to become a citizen, just like the many immigrants who qualify for citizenship every year. It was always the case that the Minister could waive the criteria for citizenship in certain circumstances -
In some circumstances the Minister for Justice may approve an application for citizenship, even if all the above conditions are not met, for someone who:
- Is of Irish descent or has Irish associations*, or
- Has been resident abroad in the Irish public service, or
- Has been declared to be a refugee or stateless as defined by law.
https://www.irishimmigration.ie/how-to-become-a-citizen/become-an-irish-citizen-by-naturalisation/
And even the recent amnesty is being declared with the idea of allowing people who otherwise wouldn’t qualify, to apply for citizenship, in order that they can be counted as making a legitimate contribution to Irish society, as opposed to the idea that provision for anything they weren’t getting is somehow a “net loss”. The habitual residence condition is one of the most fundamental conditions which must be satisfied by anyone seeking support from the State, and if immigrants are here unlawfully, they don’t qualify for any support from the State, so again, this idea that they are any sort of a net loss, when they are not costing the State anything to provide for them in the first place, means those sorts of claims are just bunkum, and allowing them to go unchallenged means it becomes permissible to spread that sort of misleading rhetoric with reckless abandon and no consideration for the idea that it increases resentment and prejudice, not towards Government, but towards immigrants.
I’d like to think that’s not Strumms intent, because I prefer to give people the benefit of the doubt, but when it becomes overwhelmingly obvious that the person has no interest whatsoever in helping themselves and wants to maintain their stance of blaming other people who aren’t responsible for their circumstances, then at that point I have to accept that they’re absolutely not interested in any support I might be able to provide, they’re more interested in being supported and enabled in playing the the victim. It’s much worse when they try to make out other people are victims too, when they most certainly are not. That’s why it’s not just irresponsible to let that kind of rhetoric go unchallenged, it’s dangerous, because it enables the kind of idiot who is susceptible to it, to justify their actions against other people who are not responsible for that person’s circumstances.
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Exactly. Strumms claim is pure nonsense and despite all of the waffle Klaz knows that. I agree with you too that we shouldnt be letting posters make absurd claims. Absurd nonsense claims like Strumms are specifically designed to vilify, shame and blame immigrants when they are in no way responsible.
It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.
Terry Pratchet
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You seem to be still struggling to understand how means assessments work.
You should really do something about that.
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Their means has been pretty much the same, they retired years ago. That struggle is all yours. :)
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Actually, it's you that is blaming immigrants.
Strumms has blamed the policies of this nation and the government which has encouraged immigration.. and if those policies encouraged immigration of skilled/educated migrants who could easily cover their own costs, then there wouldn't need to be any supplementary incomes provided, or welfare benefits to those unemployed.
Very few posters blame migrants themselves, except where individual cases merit such. Most of us are critical of the immigration policies, and the consequences of those policies. I realise that kind of nuance is difficult for some on boards, but it's true. Being critical of immigration does not mean that we're critical of immigrants.
We all know that people will take what advantages are available to them, do whatever they can to improve the lives for themselves and their families.. and I suspect most posters here are fine with that. However, we should have better immigration policies to weed out those who are not productive and capable of being self-sufficient... as those who are not, will increase demands on provided services and the funding allocated to them.
Which is why I'd consider Strumms example to be possible.. and since I don't have any evidence against it... I'm fine with accepting it. And since you haven't provided any evidence against it.. yeah.
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Actually, it's you that is blaming immigrants.
Blaming immigrants for what, exactly? For people who are doing their damned best to portray immigrants as a threat to Irish society? Because that’s what’s been happening throughout this thread, in spite of your claims of ‘nuance’.
You’re probably working off a different definition of nuance than I’d use when you try to link immigration and welfare policies in their broadest sense, then neglecting to mention that they are funded by people who have the wealth to invest in the Irish economy in return for Irish citizenship. I’ll bet you can guess from which country most of this investment comes from?
1,088 Chinese citizens pay up to €1m each for residency in the State
Pretty much all that’s required is that they be of good character -
Investors must be of good character, have a net worth of at least €2 million and contribute a minimum of €1 million to Irish projects to qualify. Charitable donations can be less than this figure.
Of the total cash raised, €249 million went to building social housing, €165 million to nursing homes and €108 million to hospitality and tourism businesses.
While these three industries accounted for more than half of all investments, the Department of Justice said that an independent evaluation committee considers projects across a range of areas “which are aligned with Government policy”.
Some Irish people do very well for themselves out of it too, thank you very much -
The department did not name any organisation that benefitted from the scheme. However, property business Bartra, controlled by developer Richard Barrett, recently confirmed that it has raised cash for social housing and nursing homes through the IIP, aiding 200 Chinese citizens to gain residency rights.
One doesn’t require evidence when they’re already prejudiced towards believing something is true, like suggesting that people will take advantage of a system, in spite of the fact the evidence of anyone doing so amounts to nothing, precisely because both Irish and European borders are as tightly controlled as they are -
Q: OK, so how many people are involved in this?
A: The numbers as of now are fairly small. We are told that 479 notifications of international protection orders came from EU member states whose beneficiaries of international protection are visa-exempted, representing 7% of applications for international protection. Government sources accept while the numbers are small, the move will hopefully have a “chilling effect” on those seeking refuge here.
Doesn’t apply to Ukranian nationals in any case -
Q: Does this impact people coming from Ukraine or does relate to other countries?
A: Visa arrangements for Ukrainian nationals fleeing the Russian invasion will be unaffected. This relates to people coming from other countries via 20 “safe countries”.
https://www.irishexaminer.com/news/arid-40921814.html
It’s something of a relief that our Government’s understanding of nuance differs considerably from some people’s definition. Wouldn’t want to get their immigration policies tangled up with their welfare policies, then there might actually be some evidence that anyone was deprived of a medical card as a consequence of immigrants coming into the country who have no means to provide for themselves, when they were actually deprived of a medical card because they didn’t qualify for one. They could still qualify for a discretionary medical card, but then if they got it they’d have nothing to blame immigrants for!
They could choose to blame any group in Irish society (they’d still be wrong of course, but they could), but they are choosing to focus specifically on the Government’s immigration policies, in the full knowledge that it would deprive immigrants who are classed as refugees of their right to be supported by the State on a temporary basis -
(10) Without prejudice to subsection (8), a displaced person to whom subsection (2)applies shall be entitled—
(a) to seek and enter employment, to engage in any business, trade or profession and to have access to education and training in the State in the like manner and to the like extent in all respects as an Irish citizen,
(b) to receive, upon and subject to the same conditions applicable to Irish citizens, the same medical care and the same social welfare benefits as those to which Irish citizens are entitled, and
(c) to the same rights of travel in the State as those to which Irish citizens are entitled.
https://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/2015/act/66/section/60/enacted/en/html#sec60
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No not at all. A huge amount of the rhetoric in this thread is about blaming, shaming and villifying immigrants for various things; bad public services, crime etc. NONE of that blame, shame or vilification is coming from me at all. You know well that medical cards were not removed from Strumms family members because of immigrants and that it was because Strumms family members were financially assessed and didnt meet the financial requirements. You're making a complete fool of yourself playing dumb and pretending you don't know this.
It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.
Terry Pratchet
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No rhetoric, genuine concerns based on experiences.
my folks are retired many years, their finances have scarcely changed…
just needed people out of the system to put more in it… more being our new arrivals.
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Immigrants qualifying for medical card has nothing to do with anyone who already qualifies for a medical card, there’s no pushing anyone out of the system - they either qualify or they don’t. You keep saying your parents finances had scarcely changed, which indicates that something in their financial circumstances changed enough to mean they didn’t qualify under the means test. Were your family members assessed for a GP card?
Eligibility for a medical card is primarily based on a financial assessment in accordance with the Act of 1970. The issue of granting medical cards on the basis of illness or a disability was previously examined in 2014 by an expert panel on medical need and medical card eligibility. The panel concluded that it was not feasible, desirable or ethically justifiable to list medical conditions in priority order for medical card eligibility.
https://www.oireachtas.ie/en/debates/question/2022-07-12/87/
There’s no limit on the number of people in the system, so the question of getting anyone out of the system to fit more people in, just doesn’t arise. I don’t need to be furnished with the details of your personal circumstances because I don’t want you to prove anything to me or to anyone else, I’m just telling you that your thinking of how the system functions is completely wrong.
It’s been explained to you numerous times so I don’t know if you think you’re being clever by arguing that your parents financial circumstances scarcely changed, as if that wasn’t enough to have them fail to qualify after an assessment of the change in their financial circumstances was completed, but saying they were pushed out of the system to make room for immigrants? I’ve come to the conclusion you’re deliberately doing what you’re doing at this stage, knowing exactly what you’re doing.
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No limit as in a published figure but there IS a limit on what is budgeted for in healthcare..Ireland's expenditure on healthcare was €23.8bn in 2019, equivalent to 6.7% of GDP or 11.1% of GNI. With an average increase of 5½ per cent per annum current expenditure has increased by 24% since 2015.
money gotta come from somewhere.
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So what you're saying is they were never entitled to it in the first place as they were above the threshold all along, thanks for the clarification
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really . Interesting interpretation haha
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Seems like the correct interpretation given they lost the medical card 🤷♂️
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Hardly as they wouldn’t have been given it originally ;)
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So how did the appeal go? Surely they appealed. Was the decision overturned or upheld?
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If there has been a crime against the state, as has been suggested, I wonder if there is an obligation to report it? Are we obliged to alert SW about this? If there has been no crime against the state then I stand corrected. It seems that Strumms is now saying that they did meet the means test initially. I'm not sure what has changed about the means test in recent years?
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No idea, I'm sure Strumms will tell us its something to do with immigrants though, they're the root of all his problems apparently
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I’d hope some of the posters in here aren’t in charge of their family finances. Financially illiterate would be putting it mildly.
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