What are your views on Multiculturalism in Ireland? - Threadbanned User List in OP

Cordell

jmreire wrote: »

Actually, many Imam's have come out , especially in the Mosques but also in pubic and condemned isis, al-qaeda . taliban etc as being "un-islamic". bearing in mind that the biggest nr of victims of isis / al-qaed / Taliban etc are fellow Muslims. Look at whats happening in Afghanistan in the present time. And it all boil's down to the fact that no matter what your view's are, you can find justification in the Quran for your action's, and that's the problem. Where you can find a passage that says that the death of one individual diminishes all of mankind, and yet another passage where it says kill the unbelievers. You have a problem.

The problem is not with the book contents itself (the bible is not much better), it's with the fact that they are encouraged to use the book to guide them in all aspects of life, from food to sex to hygiene and banking.

Deleted User wrote: »

Far right has lost all meaning. Everyone, who isn't obviously in the left, regardless of how centralist they really are, is pushed into the the far right. There's not really even a "right" anymore... it's just everyone who isn't leftist.

True, but it goes the other way as well, left leaning people will be labeled as woke antifa neomarxists sjw and so on. But my point was that islam has a lot in common with the real, proper, far right. Ultraconservative white supremacists will agree with devout muslims on lots of things if they were to be able to have a civil conversation.

Cordell

Cordell wrote: »

True, but it goes the other way as well, left leaning people will be labeled as woke antifa neomarxists sjw and so on.

It's not the same thing as the left has more recognisable flexibility.

But my point was that islam has a lot in common with the real, proper, far right. Ultraconservative white supremacists will agree with devout muslims on lots of things if they were to be able to have a civil conversation.

Sure, but that's an absolute. Pointing to the ultraconservative white supremacists as if they actually represent a sizable percentage... except they never have been. It's just the boogeyman that the left has presented as being commonplace. They're an extreme. Create an enemy to justify your own increasingly extreme behavior, by promoting the existence/growth of something worse. The far right.

With Islam the strong (traditional) believers count towards a hefty percentage of the overall population, and while individuals in the privacy of their own minds, might not be such strong believers, in a group capacity peer pressure demands that they be.

I've known Muslims with quite moderate views and an openness to values more common in western societies. However, when they join with other Muslims, all it takes is one member of the group to display more traditional views, and they all fall into line. As I said, it's a mob religion, and is very intolerant of those who don't conform to the group mentality.

Islam isn't alt or far right because that's a label relating to an entirely different situation. There's little value in widening the scope, since that's what the Left has done over the last two decades, and simply has weakened the importance of various words (racist, bigot, far-right, etc)

Cordell

You also described the nazi and the kkk. A lot of them, at the individual level, were harmless, but grouped together the mob mentality takes over and the lowest common denominator prevails.

jmreire

Cordell wrote: »

The problem is not with the book contents itself (the bible is not much better), it's with the fact that they are encouraged to use the book to guide them in all aspects of life, from food to sex to hygiene and banking.


True, but it goes the other way as well, left leaning people will be labeled as woke antifa neomarxists sjw and so on. But my point was that islam has a lot in common with the real, proper, far right. Ultraconservative white supremacists will agree with devout muslims on lots of things if they were to be able to have a civil conversation.

Regarding the Bible, you had the Old Testament, of Adam and Eve, Abraham and Isaac, with all the old laws of stoning, cutting off of limbs, etc. Then Jesus arrived and changed all of that to what we now call the "New Testament" , which Christians believe and follow to this day. Some 600 years later, Mohammed arrived, and he believed that People had deviated from the one and only true God, the God of Abraham and Isaac, etc. and all they stood for in the Old Testament, and he preached a return to that, hence the stoning, cutting off of limbs' etc, to be found in the Quoran. Basically, Islam is an Abrahamic religion. Muslims from the day they are born are steeped in Islam and the Quran. It governs every aspect of their Lives completely,,,and Mohammed decreed that what he had written, cannot be change except by God, as it was given by God. So as it contains literally everything, good and bad, it's very much open to abuse. Anyone who attempts to change this, put's his Life at risk.
Shahbaz Bhatti, one of the few Christian ministers in Pakistan was killed because he sought to repeal the blasphemy laws introduced by General Zia-ul Haq. And this was not even trying to change the Quran in any way, just the "Law of the Land". His bodyguard killed him, and Lawyers flocked to the Courts for the "Honour" of defending him, offering their services free. So this is the mentality you have to deal with.

Tell me how

Deleted User wrote: »

Far right has lost all meaning. Everyone, who isn't obviously in the left, regardless of how centralist they really are, is pushed into the the far right. There's not really even a "right" anymore... it's just everyone who isn't leftist.

And by the same token, anyone who expresses concern for the environment, refugees, minorities, the homeless, those on social welfare, or anyone who isn't themselves specifically, isn't automatically a leftist-libtard-snowflake-sjw as reading many of the threads on Boards would lead you to believe.

Tell me how

Tell me how wrote: »

And by the same token, anyone who expresses concern for the environment, refugees, minorities, the homeless, those on social welfare, or anyone who isn't themselves specifically, isn't automatically a leftist-libtard-snowflake-sjw as reading many of the threads on Boards would lead you to believe.

For my own part, I don't think of people as left or right wing. Honestly, it rarely, if ever, pops up in my head. Oh, I might think of someone as a racist twat, or a complete retard, but labeling someone as a leftist? nope.

Now, I will admit when someone labels themselves, then, there's this... urge to press buttons, and see where to the cookie trail leads.

TBH I don't meet many people who are left/right. Oh, I meet SJW's but they're mostly doing that for attention, and a dislike of others. I also meet feminists and they're similar, in many regards, to the SJWs. Few are actually on the left though, when their opinions are examined. Thankfully, I've managed to avoid the race rights crowd..

biko

Can the way Lebanon have handled multiculturalism serve to soothe worried mind about creeping Sharia?
Can Nigeria?

Is there a country in the world where there is no tension between religious groups?

Indonesia?

jmreire

biko wrote: »

Can the way Lebanon have handled multiculturalism serve to soothe worried mind about creeping Sharia?
Can Nigeria?

Is there a country in the world where there is no tension between religious groups?

Indonesia?

Its very doubtful Biko,,,, even in Islamic Country's where you have Shia / Sunni populations they have problems, yet all are Muslims....so not much hope for other Countries. Ironically, Syria was one such Country where minorities were protected, not so surprising, as the Assads are a minority group themselves, the Alawites. Christian's and Muslims live side by side. But if Assad was ( or will be ) removed, what will happen then?? Attached is a picture of Don Bosco School in Aleppo, Syria, and there were many other Christian Schools in Syria, ( but obviously isis destroyed many of them) but for the future? And Jesuit school's in Lebanon ( and yes, the Jesuits are there ) and places in their schools are much sought after. But for the future?

biko

biko wrote: »

Can the way Lebanon have handled multiculturalism serve to soothe worried mind about creeping Sharia?
Can Nigeria?

Is there a country in the world where there is no tension between religious groups?

Indonesia?

The problem, for me at least, is that all the countries you named are non-western. They share certain similarities in culture and history with the migrants coming in (and they still have serious problems over time). The comparison doesn't work because the cultures are so different from Europe's. Perhaps if we had a western nation that had successfully managed multiculturalism over the long-term, we could draw comparisons, but we don't.

Brian?

biko wrote: »

Can the way Lebanon have handled multiculturalism serve to soothe worried mind about creeping Sharia?
Can Nigeria?

Is there a country in the world where there is no tension between religious groups?

Indonesia?

Malaysia.

jmreire

Brian? wrote: »

Malaysia.

Without tension? Have a read hereunder , and then see if Malaysia is without tension...

Quote:-
Proselytising to Muslims is prohibited in 10 states (except Penang, Sabah, Sarawak and the Federal Territories). Only Muslims can proselytise to non-Muslims in these states. Those caught breaking this law is subject to jail sentences and whipping.
This law has resulted in many side effects, such as:
Seizure of Christian materials including Bibles and worship CDs that are in the Malay language (because most of the Muslims in Malaysia are Malays),
Increasing paranoia among conservative Muslims against anything that isn’t Islamic, especially against Christianity (e.g. a group of Muslims demanding that the cross be taken down from a church, arson attacks on churches), and
Banning other religions from using the word ‘Allah’, even though other religions have used the word ‘Allah’ way before the formation of Malaysia.
Since Malaysian Malays are also by law, defined as a Muslim, it is also very hard for a Malaysian Malay to apostate from Islam here. One famous case is Lina Joy, whose 19-year battle to be recognised as a Christian convert is far from over. Unquote.
Hardly a description of a free, fair and without tension society. In any Country where Islam is in the majority ( Malaysia 61% ) Islam rules, regardless of what is claimed regarding treatment of non muslims.

Montage of Feck

biko wrote: »

Can the way Lebanon have handled multiculturalism serve to soothe worried mind about creeping Sharia?
Can Nigeria?

Is there a country in the world where there is no tension between religious groups?

Indonesia?

Lebanon has gone from a stable wealthy nation to a sectarian hell hole in less than fifty years while Nigeria is a ethnic hodgepodge held together by the military for the benefit of a corrupt ruling class.

Arthur Daley

Montage of Feck wrote: »

Lebanon has gone from a stable wealthy nation to a sectarian hell hole in less than fifty years while Nigeria is a ethnic hodgepodge held together by the military for the benefit of a corrupt ruling class.

Sounds familiar.

JasonStatham

jmreire wrote: »

Without tension? Have a read hereunder , and then see if Malaysia is without tension...

Quote:-
Proselytising to Muslims is prohibited in 10 states (except Penang, Sabah, Sarawak and the Federal Territories). Only Muslims can proselytise to non-Muslims in these states. Those caught breaking this law is subject to jail sentences and whipping.
This law has resulted in many side effects, such as:
Seizure of Christian materials including Bibles and worship CDs that are in the Malay language (because most of the Muslims in Malaysia are Malays),
Increasing paranoia among conservative Muslims against anything that isn’t Islamic, especially against Christianity (e.g. a group of Muslims demanding that the cross be taken down from a church, arson attacks on churches), and
Banning other religions from using the word ‘Allah’, even though other religions have used the word ‘Allah’ way before the formation of Malaysia.
Since Malaysian Malays are also by law, defined as a Muslim, it is also very hard for a Malaysian Malay to apostate from Islam here. One famous case is Lina Joy, whose 19-year battle to be recognised as a Christian convert is far from over. Unquote.
Hardly a description of a free, fair and without tension society. In any Country where Islam is in the majority ( Malaysia 61% ) Islam rules, regardless of what is claimed regarding treatment of non muslims.

And Malays aren't even the original people (Orang Asli) of Malaysia! It's sickening.

Montage of Feck

Singapore had the good sense to leave Malaysia at the beginning, its now one of the highest rated nations by gdp and hdi 8n the world.

Montage of Feck

Montage of Feck wrote: »

Singapore had the good sense to leave Malaysia at the beginning, its now one of the highest rated nations by gdp and hdi 8n the world.

A big part of that though, is that they allow freedom, but hold a velvet covered steel glove in the background. They've retained absolute control over their districts, and while people are allowed to worship or act out their cultures, there's no tolerance for anything that might challenge the status quo. As such, there's little in the way of effective activism, because people know it's not going to change.. nor do they really want it to. (unless you're on the poorer end of things)

My ex is from one of the older trading houses, and they've got tremendous power in the city. They're also extremely conservative, and combined with the other houses, will prevent any incursions of extreme thinking.

Singapore is a great model, but it's worth remembering that it's culture/history would be at odds with Europe's. I've been there about twenty times, and I always look forward to visiting again. One of the best cities I've ever spent time in.

biko

The charismatic Singapore leader Lee Kuan Yew speaks about effect of Christianity and Islam on Asia.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x3lUD8ScQKk

He is quoted as saying about Malay-Muslims

“I think we were progressing very nicely until the surge of Islam came, and if you asked me for my observations, the other communities have easier integration – friends, inter-marriages and so on – than Muslims.”

I myself lived and worked in Singapore for a while and really liked it. I did not notice any religious tensions but then I didn't mix with religious people.

Good video. Worth a watch.

jmreire

biko wrote: »

The charismatic Singapore leader Lee Kuan Yew speaks about effect of Christianity and Islam on Asia.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x3lUD8ScQKk

He is quoted as saying about Malay-Muslims


I myself lived and worked in Singapore for a while and really liked it. I did not notice any religious tensions but then I didn't mix with religious people.

While extremists of all hues are always the problem, he seems to be more worried about the problem created by Christianity than Islam,,

biko

Yeah, three main Abrahamic religions spread from Israel and Saudi Arabia to the rest of the world.
They are all invasive religions.

jmreire

jmreire wrote: »

While extremists of all hues are always the problem, he seems to be more worried about the problem created by Christianity than Islam,,

Christianity has a longer history of being political and interfering with a local culture. Due to it's ties within Western nations, it has a lot more resources to draw upon to cause problems. Christians claiming to be victimised, could/can gain a huge amount of support in the US or Europe (throughout many periods of history) both financial, or political.

Islam is a more recent problem with a different set of dangers. Typically, Islamic nations don't have the political clout that western nations do, or rather those that do, have little interest in defending Muslims in other countries.

Don2012

Strongly disagree.

Don2012

Don2012 wrote: »

Strongly disagree.

You disagree with what, and perhaps, give us your reasons for disagreeing, and even possibly, some alternative arguments to show your logic?

biko

I suppose Japan could be multicultural bliss if we only look at religions.
Buddhism arrived from China and Korea about 1500 years ago, but the native Shinto religion wasn't displaced.

There was some conflict and religious wars to start with, but after a while the two religions settled into coexistence.

DublinWriter

I'm seeing something in Ireland I thought that I'd never see - a vapid Trumpism and a distrust of the foreigner by those who probably have even been rarely out of their own county, never mind country.

The sad truth is this. If you don't believe in multiculturalism in Ireland, then shelve all your hopes, dreams and aspirations for a united Ireland. For ever.

There's over 600,000 people in NI who culturally identify as British. Ask yourself what happens to those in a United Ireland? Are you going to ethically cleanse them? Send them to re-education camps?

Arthur Daley

Nonsense. The way things are heading with Sinn Fein & co. the last bastion of opposition to 'multi culturalism' may be those 600,000 unionists in the north. They will not be bulldozed through so easily, just as the British themselves tried to say enough is enough through the assorted Brexit votes of recent years.

Don2012

DublinWriter wrote: »

I'm seeing something in Ireland I thought that I'd never see - a vapid Trumpism and a distrust of the foreigner by those who probably have even been rarely out of their own county, never mind country.

The sad truth is this. If you don't believe in multiculturalism in Ireland, then shelve all your hopes, dreams and aspirations for a united Ireland. For ever.

There's over 600,000 people in NI who culturally identify as British. Ask yourself what happens to those in a United Ireland? Are you going to ethically cleanse them? Send them to re-education camps?

How wrong you are. People feel Ireland has enough immigration, when is enough? When the Irish are totally in extinction? Anyone I talk to are well travelled myself included, the fact remains, who wants to become a minority in their own homeland? Do you?

Multiculturalism has been proven to not work, just look at England, Germany, France, Italy etc. Why can we not survive on our own? Are you that anti Irish that you need other cultures etc to make Ireland?

Those 600,000 people are Irish for crying out loud!! Yes they may identify as British because of our history but comparing them to multiculturalism is silly and very different.

Don2012

DublinWriter wrote: »

I'm seeing something in Ireland I thought that I'd never see - a vapid Trumpism and a distrust of the foreigner by those who probably have even been rarely out of their own county, never mind country.

The sad truth is this. If you don't believe in multiculturalism in Ireland, then shelve all your hopes, dreams and aspirations for a united Ireland. For ever.

There's over 600,000 people in NI who culturally identify as British. Ask yourself what happens to those in a United Ireland? Are you going to ethically cleanse them? Send them to re-education camps?

How wrong you are. People feel Ireland has enough immigration, when is enough? When the Irish are totally in extinction? Anyone I talk to are well travelled myself included, the fact remains, who wants to become a minority in their own homeland? Do you?

Multiculturalism has been proven to not work, just look at England, Germany, France, Italy etc. Why can we not survive on our own? Are you that anti Irish that you need other cultures etc to make Ireland?

Those 600,000 people are Irish for crying out loud!! Yes they may identify as British because of our history but comparing them to multiculturalism is silly and very different.

Sand

DublinWriter wrote: »

I'm seeing something in Ireland I thought that I'd never see

Ireland has endured a wave of mass immigration which hasn't occurred in its modern history. Did you think everything would carry on as before?

There's over 600,000 people in NI who culturally identify as British. Ask yourself what happens to those in a United Ireland? Are you going to ethically cleanse them? Send them to re-education camps?

That is some impressive cognitive dissonance you have going on there.

DublinWriter

Sand wrote: »

Ireland has endured a wave of mass immigration which hasn't occurred in its modern history. Did you think everything would carry on as before?

Really? You feel Irish culture is under that much cultural attack? You can't even speak your native language and never made an effort to do so. Mass immigration? Do you even know the stats? You see a few black faces and you're freaking out like a member of EDL. For shame.