What are your views on Multiculturalism in Ireland? - Threadbanned User List in OP

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119606623#Comment_119606623

Indeed. But there will be a tipping point at some stage. It will just be further along in the process than other countries than have a right wing party which gradually gains support. Ours will be a much more disorganised transition whenever it occurs

Cordell

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119606472#Comment_119606472

No, extremism is not a solution, actually it's more problems on top of the existing ones.

However, admitting that Sweden has a problem with these violent gangs of African origin, and looking to reduce their numbers by any means including swift deportation is not extremism.

DaithiMa

Remember when Irish politicians used to wax lyrical about the wonderful left wing 'Swedish Model'. Doesn't look so wonderful now, does it. Look where it has led them.

mohawk

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119606956#Comment_119606956

I am not criticising the Swedish people for this result. The blame firmly lies with the politicians that were in government over last couple decades. I believe majority of people naturally stay well away from having extreme left or right views. Most ordinary people want secure housing, jobs, safe places to live and raise families, good education, access to quality healthcare once they have all that they don’t give a second thought to where there neighbours are from.

The political class ignored what was happening in peoples everyday lives and are therefore responsible for this increase in voting for the far-right. It’s been quite a few years now where we have heard stories of crime, violence in Sweden and in many cases those stories have been dismissed as conspiracy theories by those who believe in open borders. Add in that certain demographics have shown to be overly reliant on welfare making the Scandinavian welfare model unsustainable. The political class in Sweden and elsewhere around Europe ignored the warning signs and carried on regardless. Now their citizens have had a drop in the quality of life and feeling of safety in their cities and some are taking unprecedented action via their ballot paper.

Marcos

I remember watching a video about the last general election in Sweden and was shocked at the fact that there isn't one ballot paper with all candidates listed as is the case throughout Europe. Instead candidates or parties printed their own ballot papers which were sent out to all the polling stations and were put out for voters to choose publicly, so goodbye secret ballot.

From Wiki:

"In 2014 a German citizen, Christian Dworeck, reported this lack of secrecy in Swedish voting to the European Commission[7] and from 2019 ballot papers are selected behind a screen.[8] It remains to be seen if this measure, quietly introduced to bring EU elections in Sweden into compliance with European human rights law, will be extended to Swedish parliamentary and local elections." I don't know if that was the case for these elections.

And what if the poll station workers "lose" particular candidates or parties ballot papers?

Edit: At least that's something we don't have here. As mentioned previously, no proponent of multiculturalism here mentions the Swedish Model with pride anymore. Remember how they all jumped down Trumps* throat when he mentioned Sweden had it's no go areas? Then before this election the Swedish Prime Minister said she would not like to see any "Somalitowns" in Sweden. Her words, not mine.

Enough commentators have pointed out how "parallel societies" can grow within a country, often to the detriment of the native society. Will Helen McEntee et al take responsibility for any parallel societies in Ireland?

*it feels strange pointing out a time he turned out to be right, but between that and him pointing out Germany's over reliance on Russian gas, that particular stopped clock was right twice.

marknjb

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119606956#Comment_119606956

unfortunately when they get deported they will be on the lookout for another handy country to get into .

where better than good old ireland the land of a thousand welcomes no matter what ure criminal record is

The_Kew_Tour

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-62823893

This is quite scary and sad at same time. It also should be not ignored

EOQRTL

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119606203#Comment_119606203

Glad to see Sweden has taken this route. You have to shout stop somewhere.

Fandymo

Thread on crime in Sweden. Has Ireland 2040 written all over it 😡

https://twitter.com/composite_guy2/status/1569252000730079236?s=46&t=yVPeF2n5v7ciBaiQqBx4rw

Real Donald Trump

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119610367#Comment_119610367

Chilling stuff

Tonesjones

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119610367#Comment_119610367

Wow that is a jarring thread

Some of the most high profile murders in Ireland in the last year or two were committed by foreign men. This is fact .

Have we began to go down the same path?

Patrick2010

One of the tweets has a Swedish politician putting the blame on the Swedes for the lack of integration causing these issues. Sweden is like other western countries in that third world migrants will end up in poorer areas rather than affluent areas so end up creating ghettos. Similar to Ireland in that you're not going to see large groups of immigrants in leafy Foxrock,Ballsbridge etc. compared to large parts of west Dublin or Balbriggan. You can imagine in 10 or 20 years time some Irish politician will say its our fault for not encouraging integration.

mohawk

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119610367#Comment_119610367

Ireland will probably just make it hate speech to compline and analyse crime and economic data with any references to ethnic background…… I am joking but it does also seem plausible

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119606956#Comment_119606956

Ahh... I kinda agree. Extremism as seen in Germany or Sweden is not the answer, but it's worth remembering that they have a history of associations with racial superiority. So, their extremes are far more extreme than what could happen in Ireland.

The thing is that Ireland has always been very very moderate. I think most people can agree that we're unlikely to swing heavily left/right, and mostly our political views are stuck in the middle, which means that extremism can be considered anything that deviates from the centre.

And honestly, I do think extremism is the answer for Ireland, because the centre will never be able to operate, and change the status quo, due to the system that past centralists have created. After all, if you are a moderate, you'll believe that you must work within the existing system to effect change, but that's not going to happen. Any party would need successive terms in office over the long period (one/two decades), to remove what's been done by the mainstream political groups.

Conservative extremism. 😂 is the answer here. A "reasonable" approach to the right, without the idiotic positions and attitudes often seen in right leaning groups.

A few weeks ago, I encountered two "far right" organisations promoting their views in Athlone and then later in Galway. Showy flags, bagpipes, calling all native Irishmen to defend the nation, yadda yadda yadda. Heavy, and very obvious links with Catholicism. Meh. Took two looks at their pamphlets and laughed myself silly. I suspect they saw themselves in the light of the United Irishmen, but against the social problems within Ireland. Hilarious. Their views were badly represented, and quite naïve I spoke to their reps about the main viewpoints, their proposed answers, and.. idiots. No dealing with the practicalities pf a modern society, and the legal system we live with. And yet, they drew a crowd, and there were plenty of people walking away with the literature, and not laughing at what they read.

However, these kind of groups are not the answer because they have no credibility, and frankly, are stupid. But that's not to say, that we won't find a more "moderate" far right group, that strikes the right cord, and is intelligent enough to know to pay attention to their audience. And they might do something of value for the nation. Might.

I don't believe in the mainstream political parties, and I have no confidence in the modern left. Which leaves the right.. the far right? nah. Inbred retards from what I've seen... but I've also seen more sophisticated/intelligent far right people in Germany/France, so it's possible we might see someone, or a group manifest here. I don't see any alternative that's likely to work.

Although, maybe is worth remembering, that I'd like to see the Irish people take to the streets, hang our politicians from the street lamps, and completely restart our system of democracy. 😋

Fandymo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119610799#Comment_119610799

McEntee isn’t far off it at the moment.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119610563#Comment_119610563

It's pretty logical... if you significantly increase our foreign population, then more foreigners are going to be represented in our crime statistics.

The question is whether the crimes happened because they were from foreign cultures, or whether they're simply humans, and just as likely/unlikely to commit crimes as anyone else.

I get the desire to **** on immigration and our massive demographic shifts, but.. this approach is silly. When we have Muslim gangs, or Eastern European mafia.. then... I might agree with you. However, crime in Ireland is still extremely low, including that of foreigners.

It's an non-issue in terms of immigration.

Wibbs

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119610799#Comment_119610799

For me the main problem with this modern "multiculturalism" politic and near religious belief is that it thinks "integration" is an answer, that different people can happily co-exist if only we all integrated. I mean I can see why, it seems like an obvious answer and a hopeful one. And it is, if you completely ignore human nature and history.

Multiculturalism and "diversity is strength" and all that has been a reaction to existing multi-ethnic demographics in ex European New World colonies. A reaction to the clusterfcuk such nations found themselves in after centuries of exploitation of natives and settlers and of course slaves indentured and otherwise. So faced with that they had to try and come up with a sociopolitical sop to try and smooth over, or cover up the obvious shortcomings of history and realities.

The concept of modern multiculturalism barely existed before that. Yes there were multicultural societies, almost all of them built on empire and conquest where the rulling caste(and it matters not which "race" or "colour) imposed, often at the end of stabby things, the ruling caste's culture. Oh you could be a Roman from Spain, or France, or Britain, or Israel, but you better damned well act like one or else. Same for the Islamic empire. "Integration" was very much one way. The ruling caste were not those doing the integrating. Save for situations where said invaders and ruling caste were massively outnumbered and had to integrate to some degree. EG the Normans becoming "more Irish than the Irish themselves". The same Normans in England with far more clout took centuries to "integrate" and even then...

Those diasporas that chose to live apart, remained apart and conflict was and is sure to follow. It takes precious little difference too. I mean look at the current war going on. Can you tell a Ukrainian from a Russian? Even they have difficulty. Look at the conflict that blackened the North of this country. Can you tell the difference between them walking down the street? And we think demographics that look very different and have different background cultures and beliefs won't clash? It's a nonsense.

Fandymo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119611322#Comment_119611322

How many beheadings of gay men had we pre-open borders??

Whilst I am not religious, it must be jarring for those who are to see the likes of Enoch Burke in prison and his religious beliefs ridiculed, while Islam cannot be blamed for the beheadings of 2 men, or the murder of the Japanese student in Dundalk under threat of a lefty mob pile on.

Snake Plisken

Our very own clown in Sweden isn't very happy with the result😀 Philip will never discuss any problems with mass migration into Sweden and will block any one who tries to debate him.

https://twitter.com/philipoconnor/status/1569353188439883779?s=20&t=HYM8s6_3c9JfGnXKYyXa2w

TomTomTim

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119611322#Comment_119611322

We need Islamic gangs and EE gangsters in Ireland before we can say that mass immigration brings crime? What nonsense. In Sweden, France, England and likely other nations, the "ghettos", which are full of immigrants, have some of the highest crime rates in those countries. It's not an opinion, it's reality. We don't need to wait for anything to point to the obvious.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119611576#Comment_119611576

We need Islamic gangs and EE gangsters in Ireland before we can say that mass immigration brings crime? 

Ahh Tom, you're shifting the goalposts.. you need to consider the post/quote I responded to.

The attempt to link foreigners, as being foreigners, with murder/serious crime. It's those kind of arguments that tend to "kill" any reasonable discussion about the negatives of immigration or multiculturalism, because it links the protests with very obvious xenophobia.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119611368#Comment_119611368

How many beheadings have happened in Ireland from foreigners? And we don't have open-borders. We have badly regulated/controlled borders following a political virtue driven agenda.

Oh, and I have no problem blaming Islam for the beheadings of men... as apparently we can blame the RCC for paedophilia. Never really did like the way people encourage double standards to be applied in society. I'd be quite critical of Islam in Europe.

----

Both posts are interesting to me. It feels like I'm no longer posting under my only account or my position on multiculturalism/Islam/etc has been erased. Perhaps, think about all the posts I've contributed to this thread, which make my position quite clear, and then.. think about my posts above. Just because I object to something like the above, doesn't mean that I've suddenly lost my previous position.

mohawk

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119611322#Comment_119611322

I agree with some of what you say. I do think some of the comments around crime on social media are unjustified. If foreign nationals are 10% of the population and commit roughly 10% of the crimes, then I don’t think it’s cause for alarm.

However, if particular crimes are seeing dramatic jumps that could be a warning there is a problem. If certain groups are vastly over-represented in some crimes that is also a warning. If 5% of the population are committing 60% of a particular crime then that needs to be looked at and addressed. Some European countries have seen worrying trends in some types of crime and their politicians have ignored it hence one of reasons there is a political shift happening.

It seems to be a non issue in Ireland at the moment, but non of our political parties would do anything but bury there heads in the sand if the same trends happen here.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119611365#Comment_119611365

For me the main problem with this modern "multiculturalism" politic and near religious belief is that it thinks "integration" is an answer, that different people can happily co-exist if only we all integrated. I mean I can see why, it seems like an obvious answer and a hopeful one. And it is, if you completely ignore human nature and history.

My problem is.. what is integration? how do we measure it, or determine it's success? Or failure? Cause as far as I can see, integration means doing nothing, except encouraging foreign groups to remain foreign. The promotion of foreign culture, the elevation of the differences between national/cultural groups, etc.. It's all about making things better for the foreign groups, enabling them to be different, and removing anything that might impede that..

I've asked the question what is integration a hundred or more times, and I've never gotten anything except a vague response. Not assimilation seems to be the general theme, but no real specific explanation as to what it is, and how to measure it's success.

But yes, I think most of multiculturalism is about ignoring the realities of human behaviour. Seems remarkably foolish to ne to encourage recognisable divisions along identity within a society, lessening any suggestion of unity. I could understand it if this was about acceptance of a fusion of western & foreign culture, but it's not.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119611815#Comment_119611815

It seems to be a non issue in Ireland at the moment

Exactly.

Oh, I can certainly see us following the other European nations in terms of their crime, and problems with foreign groups, although it's worth considering just how different their societies are, and how immigrants were treated. So, for example, with France there's the problem of Algeria, and their own (French) superiority complex going on, which affects how immigrants were treated. With Sweden, the societal structure plays a part, but so too does the makeup of the immigrant groups that went there. Ireland has a very different mix of immigrant groups than those other countries.

However, I can see such problems coming here, because those more comfortable with violent crime (unlike most who grew up in Ireland) will be more accepting of it's use here. Even without the religious angle, this is a consideration. I've seen what Eastern European/Russian cities are like, and I'd be concerned about similar crime becoming established here.. although I suspect it'll happen eventually.

My issue before was with regards to blaming foreigners, as foreigners, for serious crime. Is it that they were foreign, that they behaved that way, or is it because some people are just wrong in their heads (irrespective of where they're from). The population in Ireland has jumped considerably since I was a teenager.. and most of the Gardai presence has shifted a lot during that time. There's going to be a rake of factors involved in this.

Miadhc

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119611815#Comment_119611815

What's gonna happen if that is the case though ? If it's found that foreigners are over represented in crime statistics?

Look at America 13% of the population commit over half of all crimes as per FBI crime statistics.

It's excused by people talking about socioeconomic factors.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119612825#Comment_119612825

It's excused by people talking about socioeconomic factors.

And that's the problem, because the issues involved are excused rather than dealt with. The problem with a larger percentage of immigration is that immigrants end up at the bottom of the socio-economic pyramid. A large part of that is the lack of generational wealth, but also the type of skills/education that these foreign groups have on entry. There is not enough attention given to these considerations to prevent similar happening here, and to avoid creating the kind of society that exists in the US. America has had those issues for well over a century, with each wave of immigration adding to the populations at the bottom, a lot of which is connected with racism, and the elitism of their society, but at this point in their national development, tackling those issues is a monumental challenge. It's different for Ireland both due to our population, but also that these issues are relatively new, so they could be handled before creating such a foundation for the lowest socio-economic grouping.

I've noticed over the last decade (more so due to my own aging, and expanding knowledge) that Western societies love to excuse, and sweep negatives under the carpet.. providing supports to maintain the negatives, rather than seeking to resolve them entirely. And that's why mass immigration is so dangerous, because as people enter the low socio-economic groupings, and even with all the opportunities involved, most of them will remain at the bottom, which will generate bitterness/anger over their situation, and a jealousy towards others. Which is why so much crime, especially violent crime, happens, in conjunction with the associated values of their respective cultures, and how crime manifested there before they migrated here. There's this strange attitude among the pro-immigration crowd as if migrants are going to leave behind all the negatives of their own cultural/national backgrounds, and bring with them only the positives to be paraded in their new host nation.

Just to clarify, I'm not against migration (for those like DaCor who will assume that the above criticism is such an absolute stance). I'm against these badly considered series of policies regarding immigration, and we should be focusing on the immigration of peoples who can comfortably support themselves and their families without needing any external support, but more importantly, have the skills/education to be employed again easily if the economy was to shrink. Avoid the mistakes of America, Sweden, etc and have a population that is capable of living comfortably within a first world (and expensive) society.

positron

Long thread, did not read it all, but the general gist seems to be "too many immigrants" and "integration doesn't work" - did I get that right?

Just a genuine question - how would a country run a successful modern economy without immigration? I can't think of any other than perhaps Japan, they too are changing. Who would work here if we were to say non-Irish can't live or work here?

PS: Also, if someone could find the % of immigrants in Ireland against the % of crimes committed by immigrants as well as the % of victims that are immigrants... It could be insightful..!

Cordell

did I get that right?

Not really, no.

how would a country run a successful modern economy without immigration?

The argument is not against immigration, but against uncontrolled low skilled non EU immigration - the kind that doesn't work and doesn't integrate. If immigration would have been on a merit and need basis we wouldn't be having this conversation

PS: Also, if someone could find the % of immigrants in Ireland against the % of crimes committed by immigrants as well as the % of victims that are immigrants... It could be insightful..!

Depending on the *ahem* background some types are at a similar level of criminality, some others are much higher. And also not all crime are the same, some are begging in the street, some are financing jihadi terrorism.

CeCe12

https://www.drugsandalcohol.ie/29586/#:~:text=The%20final%20dataset%20comprised%2035%20offence%20categories.&text=Across%20all%20offence%20categories%2C%2010.84,committals%20were%20non%2DIrish%20nationals.

The above linked article shows the sentencing disparities between irish and non national prisoners and their representation amongst the prison population.

The data in this article states a higher number of non nationals are denied bail and receive longer sentences.

This could be for a variety of reasons, for example a drugs charge under the value of €13,000 carries a lesser sentence than a charge in relation to a seizure above that figure. However whether Irish or a non national it may be the person's 2nd or 3rd offence within the same category.

In relation to bail, a judge may view that a non national is more likely to abscond and similarly whether Irish or non national the prisoner may have previously failed to appear.

Individual judges can vary in their views and sentences handed out from court to court, region to region. They may also become familiar with a face if they have previously stood before them.

In my opinion a more in depth study is required as there are too many variables at play.

I have made this post as balanced as possible.

Fandymo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119613090#Comment_119613090

Sounds like you didn’t read it at all.

TLDR: Well policed, skills/needs based immigration. No one has a problem with.