What are your views on Multiculturalism in Ireland? - Threadbanned User List in OP
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I suppose Japan could be multicultural bliss if we only look at religions.
Buddhism arrived from China and Korea about 1500 years ago, but the native Shinto religion wasn't displaced.
There was some conflict and religious wars to start with, but after a while the two religions settled into coexistence.
One of the things I love about Asia is that there is no real religious history, the way there is in the West or the M.East. The lack of organised religion with political agendas has given most of the countries a very honest approach towards religious integration. They had their religious wars, but learned early to remove religion from governments, or even any community authority. Japan is interesting because of the role the Emperor played by keeping religious attention focused on a single figure, that mostly kept out of people's lives.0 -
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DublinWriter wrote: »I'm seeing something in Ireland I thought that I'd never see - a vapid Trumpism and a distrust of the foreigner by those who probably have even been rarely out of their own county, never mind country.
There are many reasons for this and yep racism is indeed a major one and one that even with decades of hopes, education and time, money and effort hasn't exactly gotten better. If anything it's gotten worse. The current BLM marches should tell you something. Never mind the apparently increasing left/right divide towards the extreme.
Now some - and I see them as wonderfully optimistic though naive - believe that education and more of the same effort and time will make the difference. This time. In my humble it won't. I'm more practical and realistic. Sure it'll get softer around the edges(hopefully), but you will still find the same social hierarchies with the darkest of skin more clustered at the bottom and social strife.The sad truth is this. If you don't believe in multiculturalism in Ireland, then shelve all your hopes, dreams and aspirations for a united Ireland. For ever.
There's over 600,000 people in NI who culturally identify as British. Ask yourself what happens to those in a United Ireland? Are you going to ethically cleanse them? Send them to re-education camps?
I also have a pain in my arse with the pandering involved in trying to push this narrative and the hypocrisy, even the rejigging of history and the whitewashing of the problems of this politic that has become more of a faith than a practical philosophy. You can see that because the faithful have little but platitudes and a credo not based on logic, nor history, nor reality and to even question multiculturalism one is branded a heretic. Hell, look at the recent utter nonsense around a few bronze statues outside a Dublin hotel. Yeah, like we really need more of that ballsology. Urban centres in France, Germany, the UK, Sweden, you name it have already fallen to this busted flush of a social experiment. I quite simply don't want that for Ireland. Though sadly it has already started.Rejoice in the awareness of feeling stupid, for that’s how you end up learning new things. If you’re not aware you’re stupid, you probably are.
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DublinWriter wrote: »I'm seeing something in Ireland I thought that I'd never see - a vapid Trumpism and a distrust of the foreigner by those who probably have even been rarely out of their own county, never mind country.
I live, for the most part, abroad. Many other posters here have similar lifestyles.
The distrust is not about foreigners. It's not that simple... Which is why this thread has managed to continue for so long..The sad truth is this. If you don't believe in multiculturalism in Ireland, then shelve all your hopes, dreams and aspirations for a united Ireland. For ever.
Except that many Irish people, myself included, don't want an united Ireland. We don't want the baggage that would come with the North, nor do we consider those in the North as being representative of the Republic. There's quite a few people who have given up romantic nonsense, and are looking at the cold hard consequences of unification... and the price is far too high... with extremely dubious gains.There's over 600,000 people in NI who culturally identify as British. Ask yourself what happens to those in a United Ireland? Are you going to ethically cleanse them? Send them to re-education camps?
That's a rather inflammatory suggestion, and based on what exactly? Go on... show me where in the last dozen pages anyone has suggested anything like that for migrants...1 -
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Deleted User wrote: »One of the things I love about Asia is that there is no real religious history, the way there is in the West or the M.East. The lack of organised religion with political agendas has given most of the countries a very honest approach towards religious integration. They had their religious wars, but learned early to remove religion from governments, or even any community authority. Japan is interesting because of the role the Emperor played by keeping religious attention focused on a single figure, that mostly kept out of people's lives.Rejoice in the awareness of feeling stupid, for that’s how you end up learning new things. If you’re not aware you’re stupid, you probably are.
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DublinWriter wrote: »Really? You feel Irish culture is under that much cultural attack? You can't even speak your native language and never made an effort to do so. Mass immigration? Do you even know the stats? You see a few black faces and you're freaking out like a member of EDL. For shame.
Minister for foreign affairs Simon Coveney decided to inform the Irish people that they would introduce half a million into the country over the next 20 years. No vote, it's a done deal.0 -
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DublinWriter wrote: »I'm seeing something in Ireland I thought that I'd never see - a vapid Trumpism and a distrust of the foreigner by those who probably have even been rarely out of their own county, never mind country.
The sad truth is this. If you don't believe in multiculturalism in Ireland, then shelve all your hopes, dreams and aspirations for a united Ireland. For ever.
There's over 600,000 people in NI who culturally identify as British. Ask yourself what happens to those in a United Ireland? Are you going to ethically cleanse them? Send them to re-education camps?DublinWriter wrote: »I'm seeing something in Ireland I thought that I'd never see - a vapid Trumpism and a distrust of the foreigner by those who probably have even been rarely out of their own county, never mind country.
The sad truth is this. If you don't believe in multiculturalism in Ireland, then shelve all your hopes, dreams and aspirations for a united Ireland. For ever.
There's over 600,000 people in NI who culturally identify as British. Ask yourself what happens to those in a United Ireland? Are you going to ethically cleanse them? Send them to re-education camps?
LOL, if you want to make an argument against large scale immigration up then the Ulster platation is a great example
Not to worry though, after 400 years and the imposition of power sharing them uns are pretty much assimilated now, they've even stopped burning other denominations out of their houses and such like. Change the lyrics of the National Anthem, stick a new flag on the roof, let them have their walks in the summer and its game ball. As John Hume said, we've more that unites us than divides us. Dont think that can be said for other recently arrived groups.DublinWriter wrote: »I'm seeing something in Ireland I thought that I'd never see - a vapid Trumpism and a distrust of the foreigner by those who probably have even been rarely out of their own county, never mind country.
Oh deary me.0 -
https://twitter.com/Ireunderworld/status/1292578458476912640
working well in balbriggan , house set on fire by anti social youths today.
https://twitter.com/DarraghOBrienTD/status/1292568083543068672
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NS8SacA4QGI1 -
iebamm2580 wrote: »https://twitter.com/Ireunderworld/status/1292578458476912640
working well in balbriggan , house set on fire by anti social youths today.
https://twitter.com/DarraghOBrienTD/status/1292568083543068672
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NS8SacA4QGI
Why anyone would be naive enough enough to think that these people will become a social asset - uniquely - to any country including the festering kips they crawl out is mind-boggling.0 -
main problem i see is housing too many immigrants in the one area, lost of young kids from different cultures around my area in Tipperary that integrate and play hurling and have no problems due to the fact that they dont just stick to there own, but like irish communities in hells kitchen in nyc which had its fair share of trouble due to the irish sticking to there own and not integrating we will see the same in our cities.0
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iebamm2580 wrote: »https://twitter.com/Ireunderworld/status/1292578458476912640
working well in balbriggan , house set on fire by anti social youths today.
https://twitter.com/DarraghOBrienTD/status/1292568083543068672
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NS8SacA4QGI
Isn't cultural enrichment wonderful?0 -
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Why anyone would be naive enough enough to think that these people will become a social asset - uniquely - to any country including the festering kips they crawl out is mind-boggling.
Well... that's the thing. They would have come over as children, or teens, and "adapted" to living in western nations. You can't really look at children and say that they'll turn out bad simply because of where they come from.
The issue is the environmental conditions that they are being brought into... and we do have ourselves to blame for that.
We're seeing similar (although usually not quite so bad) from our own native youth population. When you remove the social constraints (Corporal punishment, the influence of the RCC, etc) and not replace them with anything, there are going to be consequences. Especially now that community awareness is dying, and people are generally strangers to each other, there's far less pressure on people to conform to set modes of behavior.
Sure, part of it comes down to their own parents, and their cultural backgrounds, but we have to be honest about the environment we are introducing young migrants (and our own youths) into... and take responsibility for those choices.
It's one of the reasons we should be severely limiting migration... we really need to get our own **** together and solve some of our own societal problems. Youth crime is an issue, even without adding migrants (or their children) to the mix. It's just going to get even worse, because now we're adding other tensions, and influences to the mix...0 -
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RTE have decided that the burning of a house in the middle of the day is not news.1
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iebamm2580 wrote: »main problem i see is housing too many immigrants in the one area, lost of young kids from different cultures around my area in Tipperary that integrate and play hurling and have no problems due to the fact that they dont just stick to there own, but like irish communities in hells kitchen in nyc which had its fair share of trouble due to the irish sticking to there own and not integrating we will see the same in our cities.
The likes of Jobstown will likely have problems with this stuff in the future. While they technically live among the Irish, the African community & the Irish community don't seem to do a whole lot of mixing, most groups keep to themselves. I'm honestly surprised that there hasn't been more problems so far.“The man who lies to himself can be more easily offended than anyone else. You know it is sometimes very pleasant to take offense, isn't it? A man may know that nobody has insulted him, but that he has invented the insult for himself, has lied and exaggerated to make it picturesque, has caught at a word and made a mountain out of a molehill--he knows that himself, yet he will be the first to take offense, and will revel in his resentment till he feels great pleasure in it.”-
― Fyodor Dostoevsky, The Brothers Karamazov0 -
The likes of Jobstown will likely have problems with this stuff in the future. While they technically live among the Irish, the African community & the Irish community don't seem to do a whole lot of mixing, most groups keep to themselves. I'm honestly surprised that there hasn't been more problems so far.
There probably has been but it gets covered up or just not reported. Remember the white lad getting beaten up that was recorded a few months back and shared on social media? The one we were told by the Gardai not to watch.0 -
Rodney Bathgate wrote: »Shut your mouth. These are our future doctors and engineers. They will fund our retirement.
Let's not jump to conclusions, surely it was just a science or engineering experiment that went wrong.1 -
Multicultural societies are inherently fragile and we don't even have to look beyond our own shores to see this. After 400 years, there is still a fault line of a sort in Northern Ireland, and when the circumstances allow, this generates social upheaval and political deadlock.
There are some people - not all, but some - who view multiculturalism as an end. It is not an end, it is a means. I believe the idea of it, really, is to promote a tolerance of one another and different value systems we may have, until we can arrive at a common set of values. You cannot have lasting social cohesion without this. You can pretend everything is hunky dory when times are good, economically speaking, but when recessions happen, people really quickly revert to a 'to each their own' mentality and demonisation of the other, and this is exactly what we saw springing from 2008 - a renewed wave of nationalism and racism has swept Europe.
The worst thing that can be done when trying to make multicultural societies work is sticking your fingers in your ears when anyone talks about a problem with their implementation. You wouldn't do this with any other issue. You have to be allowed to talk in order to explain why A) Why your concerns are perhaps misdirected, or What can be done to solve the problems. Silence, on the other hand, just allows things to fester.0 -
Social engineering does not work. Why should the people of this country or any other European country be extras in some experiment to "include" backward social cripples?0
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Social engineering does not work. Why should the people of this country or any other European country be extras in some experiment to "include" backward social cripples?
Nothing that's forced ever works optimally; it may hold together for a short period of time but it will eventually implode, or at best greatly decline. These are basic truths that the righteous pseudo intellectuals love to ignore, because of course they know better, regardless of them being wrong regularly. Immigrants aren't the problem here, the politicians and multiculturalists who support this near unregulated madness are the one who deserve all our contempt.“The man who lies to himself can be more easily offended than anyone else. You know it is sometimes very pleasant to take offense, isn't it? A man may know that nobody has insulted him, but that he has invented the insult for himself, has lied and exaggerated to make it picturesque, has caught at a word and made a mountain out of a molehill--he knows that himself, yet he will be the first to take offense, and will revel in his resentment till he feels great pleasure in it.”-
― Fyodor Dostoevsky, The Brothers Karamazov0 -
but when recessions happen, people really quickly revert to a 'to each their own' mentality and demonisation of the other, and this is exactly what we saw springing from 2008 - a renewed wave of nationalism and racism has swept Europe.
There is really no hard evidence of this though is there.
The reward the Irish people have got from their establishment for the slog of 2008-2014 has been the transformation of their country.
Yet another boot in the teeth. Lots of disaffected, those with dissident views would look to leave, but to where? It seems to be everywhere people would want to go now.0 -
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Arthur Daley wrote: »There is really no hard evidence of this though is there.
The reward the Irish people have got from their establishment for the slog of 2008-2014 has been the transformation of their country.
Yet another boot in the teeth. Lots of disaffected, those with dissident views would look to leave, but to where? It seems to be everywhere people would want to go now.
People are afraid to speak out. Even the alleged nationalists of SF are part of the coalition to turn this country into a deracinated kip.
If they had any insight they would realise that if the last major plantation from our neighbours is still the source of inter-ethnic/sectarian divisions, then importing hundreds of thousands of people with even less claim is hardly going to work out any better.
Hence the need for all this New Irish bullcrap. Is Shane McGowan "New English?"
In the meantime we are bombarded with lectures on how fkn racist we all are, and life stories of the one in a hundred African who plays hurling so that most of us would sooner disown our mothers rather than question where all of this is going.0 -
Good call. Some would have us believe they are more Irish than the real Irish.0
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The likes of Jobstown will likely have problems with this stuff in the future. While they technically live among the Irish, the African community & the Irish community don't seem to do a whole lot of mixing, most groups keep to themselves. I'm honestly surprised that there hasn't been more problems so far.
Interesting you picked Jobstown as an example. Jobstown has always been a major area of youth violence. From Carrigmore to Kiltalawn and down to Fortunestown lane has a good number of housing estate focused gangs that clash. Killinarden, Cherry Orchard, Kilmahuddrick. All have gangs that clash with each other too. I don't think adding in different colours and nationalities will change that much.Rodney Bathgate wrote: »There probably has been but it gets covered up or just not reported. Remember the white lad getting beaten up that was recorded a few months back and shared on social media? The one we were told by the Gardai not to watch.
Why do you people use the phrase "cover up" when something isn't given major coverage? Not reporting something prominently is not a cover up. House fires and youth violence very rarely make national, or even local, news no matter who has been involved, unless there is some injury or death. Clashes with Gardaí rarely make the news. It's hard to tell on these threads when people are just using an incident to push their agenda or if they are genuinely ignorant of the problem with youth violence across the country. Do you actually think that this particular group of black is doing something unique? Do you think this is some imported culture? If anything, I'd say they're doing a fairly good job of fitting in with youths across the country, but in particular in Dublin estates.Rodney Bathgate wrote: »Good call. Some would have us believe they are more Irish than the real Irish.
What makes someone a "real Irish" to you? How many generations of purity do you require?0 -
Slowyourrole wrote: »Interesting you picked Jobstown as an example. Jobstown has always been a major area of youth violence. From Carrigmore to Kiltalawn and down to Fortunestown lane has a good number of housing estate focused gangs that clash. Killinarden, Cherry Orchard, Kilmahuddrick. All have gangs that clash with each other too. I don't think adding in different colours and nationalities will change that much.
I don't disagree, but it will end up being racial division instead of just division among rival gangs of natives. I'd argue that one is worse than the other, as most gangs end up ceasing to exist, while racial division is something that's not so easily nipped in the bud, as I'm sure you'd agree. I've mentioned Jobstown solely due to it being something I've experienced myself; I pass through there regularly, and have friends that live there. I don't like to speak of areas I haven't been to, as it would be foolish.“The man who lies to himself can be more easily offended than anyone else. You know it is sometimes very pleasant to take offense, isn't it? A man may know that nobody has insulted him, but that he has invented the insult for himself, has lied and exaggerated to make it picturesque, has caught at a word and made a mountain out of a molehill--he knows that himself, yet he will be the first to take offense, and will revel in his resentment till he feels great pleasure in it.”-
― Fyodor Dostoevsky, The Brothers Karamazov0 -
We've always had "multiculturalism" here, and there have always been fúckwits who have tried to control cultural orthodoxy with legislation, oppressive peer pressure and economic sanctions. None of them work!
Mankind is a social animal. We travel, we interact, we intermarry, we embrace the things we like about cultures we encounter; we reject or ridicule things we don't like. We had the Norse, the Normans, the English, the Scottish, the Palatines, the Huguenots, even a few Jews. It's nothing new.
Putting up arbitrary barriers against such practices only exacerbates tension.
Remember when King Edward III sent over his dim younger son the Duke of Clarence to stop his Anglo Norman colonists from becoming "more Irish than the Irish themselves"? Less than 200 years after they had come over in the 12th century, the Norman invaders in most of the country had assimilated, as all good immigrants eventually do.
They were speaking Irish. They were arbitrating disputes according to the Gaelic/Brehon judicial system rather than Anglo Norman common law. They were dressing like the Irish. The native Irish didn't wear pants--outlandish behaviour according to the chroniclers of the time, not least Froissart. They had different rules of inheritance. They had different table manners. They played different (and better) music. They rode horses bareback.
"No more of that!" said Prince Lionel, the Duke of Clarence. No more speaking Irish. No more going around wearing cloaks with the wind whistling unfettered through your nether regions. ("Put some pants on, man") No more of that squawky pipe music ("Diddly diddly dee bad; hey nonny nonny good").No more of that Brehon court nonsense.
And most importantly of all: no more intermarriage!!!! Yup. The civilised Anglo Normans were no longer allowed get it on with those hot Irish lassies!!!!
Seriously: how do you reckon that worked out?
There are other examples, from a lot nearer to our own day. "We must revive the Irish language!" declared the revolutionaries, once they took power. Compulsory Irish for all pupils from the moment the walked in the classroom door.
After 100 years of that what do we have? A generation of Europeans from more than 30 countries who don't have English as a mother tongue but can still speak it as well as most of us can, while generations of independent Irish people who after 10 years of instruction can just about memorise the national anthem, the Our Father, the Hail Mary and "An bhfuil cead agam dul go dtí an leithreas?" Pathetic.
Leave the immigrants to their own devices as long as they keep to our laws (as most of them will) and we'll do fine. Insist that Muslim butchers stock rashers and sausages, or that all Arabs have to become dog owners, or that all Czechs and Poles have to play hurling rather than soccer and you will breed resentment.
And sure, this is the perspective of a middle class urban person but intercommunal strife will always hit the working class harder if they let it fester.
Immigrants will be grand.0 -
For me it's simple.
People of any nationality, race, creed, religion, sexual preference, gender id, whatever who come in with the intention to work, integrate (within reason), live lawfully and contribute positively to their community and our society are fine by me.0 -
I don't disagree, but it will end up being racial division instead of just division among rival gangs of natives. I'd argue that one is worse than the other, as most gangs end up ceasing to exist, while racial division is something that's not so easily nipped in the bud, as I'm sure you'd agree. I've mentioned Jobstown solely due to it being something I've experienced myself; I pass through there regularly, and have friends that live there. I don't like to speak of areas I haven't been to, as it would be foolish.
Hell of a lot easier to stop racial division when people stop trying to stoke racial division.0 -
Montage of Feck wrote: »Lebanon has gone from a stable wealthy nation to a sectarian hell hole in less than fifty years while Nigeria is a ethnic hodgepodge held together by the military for the benefit of a corrupt ruling class.
Lebanon may have been "wealthy" 50 years ago (we're talking 1970) but it was hardly stable. Nor was it particularly "equal". There were gross disparities in wealth.
And yes, it had a particularly nasty civil war starting in the 1970s, one that was exacerbated by the volatile region of which it was part. REfugees who had been displaced first from Palestine and more recently from Jordan upset the fragile balance of communities that existed at the time. But these movements came about on top of earlier resentments, bitter memories and indeed outright wars that had raged between the "indigenous" Lebanese for centuries.
And indeed, there were some terrible massacres of Christian civilians. Often of the families of prominent politicians and businessmen. But these were often carried out by other prominent politicians and businessmen with their own private armies, most of whom were their Christian rivals.0 -
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Snickers Man wrote: »We've always had "multiculturalism" here,there have always been fúckwits who have tried to control cultural orthodoxy with legislation, oppressive peer pressure and economic sanctions. None of them work!Mankind is a social animal. We travel, we interact, we intermarry, we embrace the things we like about cultures we encounter; we reject or ridicule things we don't like.We had the Norse, the Normans, the English, the Scottish, the Palatines, the Huguenots, even a few Jews. It's nothing new.Putting up arbitrary barriers against such practices only exacerbates tension.Leave the immigrants to their own devices as long as they keep to our laws (as most of them will) and we'll do fine. Insist that Muslim butchers stock rashers and sausages, or that all Arabs have to become dog owners, or that all Czechs and Poles have to play hurling rather than soccer and you will breed resentment.
And sure, this is the perspective of a middle class urban person but intercommunal strife will always hit the working class harder if they let it fester.
Immigrants will be grand.Rejoice in the awareness of feeling stupid, for that’s how you end up learning new things. If you’re not aware you’re stupid, you probably are.
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Slowyourrole wrote: »What makes someone a "real Irish" to you? How many generations of purity do you require?
This is probably the most important and relevant question here. I mean it's totally loaded, but leaving that aside, it is actually difficult to answer.
Clearly if someone's family came to Ireland during Celtic migration, the Viking or Norman invasions, they are entirely Irish. If their family was part of the plantations they probably are entirely Irish, but many that belonged to families that were part of the Ulster plantations certainly don't feel Irish or want to be branded as Irish.
But realistically the question really is about the last 50 years, and, in particular, going forward.
If someone is here two months, gets married, and becomes Irish, are they as Irish as you or me? Legally, sure. If they could not name a single famous Irish person, know nothing of the history or culture of the island, they are still completely Irish, from a legal point of view.
Personally I don't see how I could ever become another nationality. If I marry someone in Myanmar and then say I am Mayanmarese, I'd feel like a hypocrite, even if it were legally true. Imagine if I started having opinions about Myanmar history, despite my family having had no part in any of that country's history. I'd expect to be laughed out of it. It would be cheeky at best for me to express a strong opinion, downright insulting at worst. Who would I be to speak about such matters?
We also offer citizenship to people provided they are simply here long enough (as long as they weren't in education or applying for asylum during that period). This is reasonable insofar that it is unfair to have people give many years, often the best years of their life, to building a life in Ireland, and yet not offer them the securities and privileges that come with citizenship. However the fact that we have this as part and parcel of our system makes it important to ensure that we are careful about who will be allowed to stay in this country (and thereby be in a position to avail of citizenship).
I think the most important criteria is that immigrants aren't too samey. One of the reasons why the immigrants during the plantations in Ulster are distinct from Irish is because they were part of only two groups (Scottish/English, Presbyterian/ Church of England respectively). Immigrants shouldn't be in a position to congregate in neighborhoods of 'their own', instead they should be integrated into Irish society. An emphasis on the 'multi' of multiculturalism would help prevent distinct pockets of particular cultures or ethnicities from forming.
This is less an issue with immigrants from EU countries because we are all part of the suprastate of the EU. One of the important aspects of this is the freedom of movement. Many migratory workers from the EU are precisely that: once the work that they have been doing dries up they return home as there's no barriers to them doing exactly that. Someone from a non-EU that has obtained permanent residency here is unlikely to ever permanently return to the country from which they've come, for both practical and financial reasons.1