What are your views on Multiculturalism in Ireland? - Threadbanned User List in OP

Thelonious Monk

The Unbearables wrote: »

This all comes down to one question. Has multiculturalism worked in any society in the history of our planet? We all know the answer but yet we refuse to change direction in fear of being called racist.

Have you heard of London or New York or Toronto? You'll go on about black knife crime in London but i lived there for years and for the most part it's an amazing friendly melting pot of cultures with some issues alright but every city has issues monocultural or not.
I'm not pro open borders or anything but to say multiculturalism doesn't work is wrong from my experience.

Rob Humanoid

Thelonious Monk wrote: »

Have you heard of London or New York or Toronto? You'll go on about black knife crime in London but i lived there for years and for the most part it's an amazing friendly melting pot of cultures with some issues alright but every city has issues monocultural or not.
I'm not pro open borders or anything but to say multiculturalism doesn't work is wrong from my experience.

I lived in London. There's plenty of crime... Poverty plays a critical role (just like here).

Thelonious Monk

Thelonious Monk wrote: »

Have you heard of London or New York or Toronto? You'll go on about black knife crime in London but i lived there for years and for the most part it's an amazing friendly melting pot of cultures with some issues alright but every city has issues monocultural or not.
I'm not pro open borders or anything but to say multiculturalism doesn't work is wrong from my experience.

It's not really the question if Multiculturalism can work. In many instances, in the relative short term, it does work.

However after a period of time, conflicts and stresses tends to arise. As time goes by, and people stop focusing on their immediate needs, there inevitably comes a stage where people tend to want to establish a 'bastion' of cultural behavior within their area. Which is perfectly fine when you have complimenting cultures, such as western cultures, who have many themes in common. The problem is when, as with our modern world, you have cultures with very conflicting views on behavior and value systems.

The other issue is whether you're talking about just a city or covering the whole country. The question I would ask is whether you're deciding that the problems the city has are related to cultural beliefs or whether they're normal aspects of a city. For example, the running of gangs, which can be traced more towards certain cultures and backgrounds, whereas others express themselves in different ways.

Stateofyou

Wibbs wrote: »

Annnnnnd here we go again. The same worn out threadbare "argument" that keeps being peddled as if Irish emigration is a mirror of the current form. Only it isn't and for a few reasons and yet again I'll explain why because this silly argument seems to have legs:

1) In the vast majority of cases Irish immigrants were going to ex colonies of Europe founded upon and utterly reliant upon immigration. When those nations reached a population level that didn't require immigration in such numbers their criteria became significantly more limited and numbers let through dropped off a cliff. Getting into America in the 1890's was mostly a case of having the fare to get there, getting into American today? Well have a go and see.

2) The Irish and other immigrant groups going to such places had almost no social safety net, no social welfare, no social housing. It was sink, swim or charity. And a fair amount of exploitation.

3) European nations today are very different societies that have quite different needs. Cheap low education labour is a contracting market. We are not colonies that required masses of non native people. Ireland in particular has the highest birth rate in the EU so doesn't fit into that usual oh "we need more babies" stuff, though that is still peddled here. Well it's the same multicultural script everywhere, no sense in changing it.

As an aside multiculturalism as a politic as well as being steeped in the oppressed/oppressor narrative, is also a politic of those ex European New World colonies because they had to deal with it by virtue of their very design. Or it's a politic of European nations who were colonisers where many of the colonised have come home to roost. Ireland doesn't fit into either category and shouldn't have to import the decades of ongoing daftness like them. We've only had a taste of it for 20 years and we're experiencing it already.

Why do we have to accept this? Why is this such an obvious given? And while you're struggling to come up with an answer that doesn't involve going straight for the copy of charity posters, maybe dig deeper and yet again please outline these positives you are so sure of. Exotic food, vague appeals to empathy and cheap labour have been covered by the way.

I'd have no issue with that number of actual asylum seekers, or paying taxes to give them a leg up. A far faster judgement process. You get in, or you don't and if you don't, then get the hell out. Six months tops. Streamline it right down as Australia has.

Oh brilliant, more bloody NGO's sucking at the taxpayers teat. No thank you. Faith groups. :rolleyes: We already have more NGO's with a shed load of overlap already sucking at that teat. If the general public knew how many I'd bet the majority would be as irritated by the sheer waste and funding of muppets as I am.

Well I think you'd find if the current asylum seekers, the majority of whom are rejected as chancers from the usual sources that even the bold Leo referenced, had to face the same setup as the Irish and other immigrants to the New World, you'd magically discover the number of them showing up would dwindle to an absolute trickle and actual asylum seekers. Indeed it would be one helluva good filter to weed out said chancers.

Sorry TLDR :pac:

Tell me how

Thelonious Monk wrote: »

Have you heard of London or New York or Toronto? You'll go on about black knife crime in London but i lived there for years and for the most part it's an amazing friendly melting pot of cultures with some issues alright but every city has issues monocultural or not.
I'm not pro open borders or anything but to say multiculturalism doesn't work is wrong from my experience.

No need to look at London, NY, or Toronto, pretty much every society has been influenced by the movement of people and the sharing of knowledge and skills and materials and practices. Cries of 'yeah but they were white or the same colour' ignores that the same arguments as are being used now were used against those people who initially moved but they eventually integrated and were accepted.

Like it was also conveniently ignored that Ireland had quite a reputation for knife crime or gangs long before it was possible to put it down to the influx of migrants.

This thread was all about culture integration could never work, in-spite of all the evidence, but today seems to be focused on the asylum process and how that is a bad thing (probably because of the 2 high profile events in the media recently showing that the examples of undesirable culture being practised were by Irish people).

Stateofyou

Stateofyou wrote: »

Sorry TLDR :pac:

You might want to stick to AH, if you think that's TLDR.

Wibbs

Stateofyou wrote: »

Sorry TLDR :pac:

Thank you for illustrating how anorexic your argument is. Short enough for you?

Tell me how wrote: »

No need to look at London, NY, or Toronto, pretty much every society has been influenced by the movement of people and the sharing of knowledge and skills and materials and practices. Cries of 'yeah but they were white or the same colour' ignores that the same arguments as are being used now were used against those people who initially moved but they eventually integrated and were accepted.

Not nearly to the same degree, much of the movement of people was on the back of conquest and they came to be accepted - where that happened and it doesn't always - they were almost exclusively of the same "race" as the locals.

Like it was also conveniently ignored that Ireland had quite a reputation for knife crime or gangs long before it was possible to put it down to the influx of migrants.

And again yup, so why import the risk of more and newer seemingly more intractable social problems? After all the benefits seem remarkably undefinable and scant according to those who believe in this politic and social experiment.

This thread was all about culture integration could never work, in-spite of all the evidence,

The evidence of what exactly? You're all too quick to state "of course it works" but again remarkably lacking in examples and always ignore the obvious and quite the long and provable list of where it doesn't, not least for the migrant populations. And again in your own time please point out any western nation where the darker of skin don't on average gather around the bottom of the socioeconomic scale. Show me a multicultural western nation where there aren't societal lines drawn along racial and ethnic lines. Ask Black folks in Paris, Turks in Germany, Muslims in the UK and see how included they feel in the lands they find themselves in. Such groups don't go on protests for the craic. They're living this experiment. Show me a multicultural western nation that doesn't show ghettoisation along racial and ethnic lines. As I've pointed out we're only in this game two decades and it's already started here, along with the self interest mouthpieces and NGO's making hay over how racist Irish society is and that Irish society should accommodate them through "their cultural lens".

What this thread does illustrate is how scarily empty the list of positives are, yet how quick some people are in buying into them.

Tell me how

Tell me how wrote: »

No need to look at London, NY, or Toronto, pretty much every society has been influenced by the movement of people and the sharing of knowledge and skills and materials and practices. Cries of 'yeah but they were white or the same colour' ignores that the same arguments as are being used now were used against those people who initially moved but they eventually integrated and were accepted.

How about the cry that they held similar cultural beliefs...? It's not about race. It's about how cultural behaviors mesh. Historically, cities drew peoples from within the actual nation. Actual international migration is a relatively newish trend, there being very little actual migration, even within countries until the 1900s, although that's when the cities really came into their own in western nations. Country people moving to the cities for work and opportunities, but they still had a common cultural background to draw upon.

Throughout Europe before WW2, you would be hard pressed to find a culturally diverse city that contained a substantial population of non-Europeans. Sure, there were pockets or enclaves of minority groups, but as has been said already, there tended to be a dominant culture, and that culture represented the majority.

Like it was also conveniently ignored that Ireland had quite a reputation for knife crime or gangs long before it was possible to put it down to the influx of migrants.

It hasn't been ignored. I'm from Athlone, and I'm in my 40s. I remember when it was a dodgy assed town.

The difference is how crime has evolved in the decades since migration became more commonplace, and TBF, few people are connecting crime with migration.. although showing that many migrants do engage in crime is valid.. the questions though should be why they do so.. seeking to understand and ultimately, remove the triggers that cause such situations to occur.

This thread was all about culture integration could never work, in-spite of all the evidence,

No it's not all about that, and where is all this evidence? I've seen a lot of theoretical papers and research suggesting how integration could happen, but very little actual hard evidence to show the success of particular methods. If anything more evidence I've seen points to a failure to integrate modern migrants, except for those who already share a common cultural background.

but today seems to be focused on the asylum process and how that is a bad thing (probably because of the 2 high profile events in the media recently showing that the examples of undesirable culture being practised were by Irish people).

Again.. few are saying that Asylum is a bad thing, and in fact, you'll find that the people who tend to be anti-multiculturalism, are the very people suggesting that Asylum is a good thing. Within limits. There's also this push to equate Asylum with normal migration.. since it tends to cloud the overall topic.

The Unbearables

Thelonious Monk wrote: »

Have you heard of London or New York or Toronto? You'll go on about black knife crime in London but i lived there for years and for the most part it's an amazing friendly melting pot of cultures with some issues alright but every city has issues monocultural or not.
I'm not pro open borders or anything but to say multiculturalism doesn't work is wrong from my experience.

You think multiculturalism has worked in London or New York. I've lived in both cities at various times of my life and I can tell you it doesnt

Thelonious Monk

The Unbearables wrote: »

You think multiculturalism has worked in London or New York. I've lived in both cities at various times of my life and I can tell you it doesnt

I would say the opposite. Maybe you just didn’t integrate well enough as an immigrant.

Tell me how

Wibbs wrote: »

Thank you for illustrating how anorexic your argument is. Short enough for you?

Not nearly to the same degree, much of the movement of people was on the back of conquest and they came to be accepted - where that happened and it doesn't always - they were almost exclusively of the same "race" as the locals.

And again yup, so why import the risk of more and newer seemingly more intractable social problems? After all the benefits seem remarkably undefinable and scant according to those who believe in this politic and social experiment.

The evidence of what exactly? You're all too quick to state "of course it works" but again remarkably lacking in examples and always ignore the obvious and quite the long and provable list of where it doesn't, not least for the migrant populations. And again in your own time please point out any western nation where the darker of skin don't on average gather around the bottom of the socioeconomic scale. Show me a multicultural western nation where there aren't societal lines drawn along racial and ethnic lines. Ask Black folks in Paris, Turks in Germany, Muslims in the UK and see how included they feel in the lands they find themselves in. Such groups don't go on protests for the craic. They're living this experiment. Show me a multicultural western nation that doesn't show ghettoisation along racial and ethnic lines. As I've pointed out we're only in this game two decades and it's already started here, along with the self interest mouthpieces and NGO's making hay over how racist Irish society is and that Irish society should accommodate them through "their cultural lens".

What this thread does illustrate is how scarily empty the list of positives are, yet how quick some people are in buying into them.

It's all around you Wibbs. Every country, city has evolved with the influx and adoption of elements of other cultures.

As for the ghettoisation, absolutely, its a bad thing. But I would still argue that intermixed communities are much more common and widespread. You can't ignore one to focus on the other. And in-spite of the cases of tensions rising and occasionally breaking out in to violence, the world is a safer place when people relate more to each other and seek out collaboration rather than division. That last point aside, I would argue that the continuation of some voices to point out how different we are is significantly impactful in creating the situations where people feel targeted and so seek out the protection of a group which was understandably of the same type of people.
But, as pointed out, after initially having the same experience and being treated in the same, Irish people (and others) and the natives (lets leave that aside and how misleading it is in this conversation anyway) recognized there was less need to feel threatened by each other so they start to genuinely integrate.

The world today with the ease of movement, travel, co-recognized education and training is moving forward with more integration and is better for it.

Tell me how

Tell me how wrote: »

The world today with the ease of movement, travel, co-recognized education and training is moving forward with more integration and is better for it.

Actually, you'll find that with the advent of technology, and social media, people are far more distant from each other than ever before. At least, based on the research done in the US and other countries, people feel more lonely and isolated than at any other time in history. While people will have huge friends lists online, real meaningful connections with others is declining... especially where it involves people outside of their intimate social circle. Getting an introduction and being allowed within that circle is rather difficult.. with other relationships being very superficial.

And so with integration, once again, you'll find that there is very little actual integration occurring because the metrics by which we used to judge cultures have changed. By removing the fundamental structures of culture (religion, insular communities with their own individual cultures, etc) we are removing the distinctiveness of particular cultures, which means that it's harder to show how people can integrate. While in the past, we could have points to various aspects of cultural behavior (Church attendance, the pub culture, etc) as ways for people to mix, those behaviors have been marginalised, leaving work as the primary way for integration to occur.

However, since a large portion of migrants lack the educational or skills to compete equally with Irish people, migrants won't be integrating with Irish people, but rather with other migrants, who are also taking those jobs which their lack of qualifications place them in. In any case, again if you look at the research on migrants, they tend to associate with others of their own culture or religion, and there is very little interaction with others except for the most superficial of contacts.

I hear a lot about how integration will occur, but there's never any specifics. Little recognition of how our cultures have changed over the last few decades, and again, little recognition that integration has been a failure for decades... People look at schools, and see that a few young people will have friends from other races, but while friendships occur, there is little actual integration of migrants into Irish culture, especially, when consideration is given to the customs or cultural behaviors taught in the home, and later, what is taken with them once they grow up enough to leave the home.

Tell me how

Deleted User wrote: »

Actually, you'll find that with the advent of technology, and social media, people are far more distant from each other than ever before. At least, based on the research done in the US and other countries, people feel more lonely and isolated than at any other time in history. While people will have huge friends lists online, real meaningful connections with others is declining... especially where it involves people outside of their intimate social circle. Getting an introduction and being allowed within that circle is rather difficult.. with other relationships being very superficial.

And so with integration, once again, you'll find that there is very little actual integration occurring because the metrics by which we used to judge cultures have changed. By removing the fundamental structures of culture (religion, insular communities with their own individual cultures, etc) we are removing the distinctiveness of particular cultures, which means that it's harder to show how people can integrate. While in the past, we could have points to various aspects of cultural behavior (Church attendance, the pub culture, etc) as ways for people to mix, those behaviors have been marginalised, leaving work as the primary way for integration to occur.

However, since a large portion of migrants lack the educational or skills to compete equally with Irish people, migrants won't be integrating with Irish people, but rather with other migrants, who are also taking those jobs which their lack of qualifications place them in. In any case, again if you look at the research on migrants, they tend to associate with others of their own culture or religion, and there is very little interaction with others except for the most superficial of contacts.

I hear a lot about how integration will occur, but there's never any specifics. Little recognition of how our cultures have changed over the last few decades, and again, little recognition that integration has been a failure for decades... People look at schools, and see that a few young people will have friends from other races, but while friendships occur, there is little actual integration of migrants into Irish culture, especially, when consideration is given to the customs or cultural behaviors taught in the home, and later, what is taken with them once they grow up enough to leave the home.

I posted before about examples of cuisine, fashion, music, art, sports, etc and how that moved and was adopted and tweaked and integrated.
I mentioned how in a global economy having more of an awareness of different markets and cultural norms within the would be beneficial.
I mentioned how more movement gave the opportunity for sharing of tacit knowledge.

But, I was met with, not that type of multiculturalism. It seems some want to see specific examples of extremists from different cultures living across the street for each other and practising their own strands of divisive religion in places of worship nearby and for there to be no unrest in this environment for it to be considered successful.

it would be like saying unless there are no deaths or injuries from car accidents, then automotive transport is a failure. It is to narrow a target for success.

In terms of more widespread integration versus feeling of community at an individual level. They are widely different concepts, as you know.

Petrol Head_Pilot

Immigration and multiculturalism is ok at a certain level. It should never change or overwhelm a countries original religion or culture.

For example, conversations held a number of years ago in regards to removing crucifixes from public places in order not to offend other religions, yet we have multiple mosques and religious events held at Croke Park?

It's fine letting other religions practice but if the original religion of this country is to be removed or subdued to suit non Catholics, this is not acceptable in my belief.

The same goes for population. The immigrant population should never overwhelm the Irish born population. This is Ireland and we should keep our Irish history and heritage.

This goes for every country in the world, if they will allow an immigrant population to overwhelm the original population then different cultures and history will eventually be a thing of the past and that is just boring.

Tell me how

Tell me how wrote: »

I posted before about examples of cuisine, fashion, music, art, sports, etc and how that moved and was adopted and tweaked and integrated.
I mentioned how in a global economy having more of an awareness of different markets and cultural norms within the would be beneficial.
I mentioned how more movement gave the opportunity for sharing of tacit knowledge.

But, I was met with, not that type of multiculturalism. It seems some want to see specific examples of extremists from different cultures living across the street for each other and practising their own strands of divisive religion in places of worship nearby and for there to be no unrest in this environment for it to be considered successful.

it would be like saying unless there are no deaths or injuries from car accidents, then automotive transport is a failure. It is to narrow a target for success.

In terms of more widespread integration versus feeling of community at an individual level. They are widely different concepts, as you know.

You highlighted the part where I said I never hear of specifics... and you didn't give me specifics about integration. Instead, you referred to aspects of culture.. which TBF migrants aren't generally involving themselves in.

Most migrants retain their own sense of fashion, in many cases, showing their own cultural norms (Muslims, and Africans), or adopting Americam hip-hop or African American styles. The same can be said for food as they're more likely to eat at home rather that outside due, in part, to the overall high costs of eating outside the home. Music is typically of a more international angle anyway, with a large part being British or American. As for sports, very few involve themselves in community sports that have Irish players, instead, playing sports with those of their own culture or religion.

As for the rest of your post, I've read it three times and each time I'm not really sure why you're writing it... in connection or in response to my post (or the quoted piece). Perhaps address what I said about integration?

Stateofyou

Deleted User wrote: »

You highlighted the part where I said I never hear of specifics... and you didn't give me specifics about integration. Instead, you referred to aspects of culture.. which TBF migrants aren't generally involving themselves in.

Most migrants retain their own sense of fashion, in many cases, showing their own cultural norms (Muslims, and Africans), or adopting Americam hip-hop or African American styles. The same can be said for food as they're more likely to eat at home rather that outside due, in part, to the overall high costs of eating outside the home. Music is typically of a more international angle anyway, with a large part being British or American. As for sports, very few involve themselves in community sports that have Irish players, instead, playing sports with those of their own culture or religion.

As for the rest of your post, I've read it three times and each time I'm not really sure why you're writing it... in connection or in response to my post (or the quoted piece). Perhaps address what I said about integration?

So no Irish person packs the Irish pubs abroad, brings their teas and rashers on holidays and has their families send them tayto crisps etc when living abroad?

Clothes, music, religion and food are a part of people's cultural identity and that is fine. Sports I would argue, is a big part of Irish culture- just look at the predominance of GAA pitches around the country. And if anyone has a religion that is part of their belief system, so be it. Ours seems to be a leftover relic that doesn't die mostly because some want a chance to show off at every communion. Communions are about the outfit and hair and accessories (especially girls + their mothers) and the party. Please. They don't see the inside of a church other than that and confirmation, weddings, funerals and remembrance mass. Don't get me started on the harm the Catholic Church have caused.
What's your problem with what people do.

Tell me how

Deleted User wrote: »

You highlighted the part where I said I never hear of specifics... and you didn't give me specifics about integration. Instead, you referred to aspects of culture.. which TBF migrants aren't generally involving themselves in.

Most migrants retain their own sense of fashion, in many cases, showing their own cultural norms (Muslims, and Africans), or adopting Americam hip-hop or African American styles. The same can be said for food as they're more likely to eat at home rather that outside due, in part, to the overall high costs of eating outside the home. Music is typically of a more international angle anyway, with a large part being British or American. As for sports, very few involve themselves in community sports that have Irish players, instead, playing sports with those of their own culture or religion.

As for the rest of your post, I've read it three times and each time I'm not really sure why you're writing it... in connection or in response to my post (or the quoted piece). Perhaps address what I said about integration?

I worked with a Muslim from Kenya who lives in the west of Ireland with his wife and children and they had to issue with interacting with colleagues in the work environment, or having themselves and their family engage with members of the Irish community in which they lived and their son played GAA.

Is that single piece of anecdotal specific enough for you?
Or how about my hosing estate which had mixture of Irish, English, Filipino, Polish, French, Chinese and Indian people living in it, and the kids from these families played amongst each others and their parents interacted in a pretty such consistent manner to how everyone else did.

Or how about the wards and theatres of every hospital in the country where people of all nationalities and backgrounds, and religions work? Let me guess, you are not talking about 'these' types of integration.

Stateofyou

Stateofyou wrote: »

So no Irish person packs the Irish pubs abroad, brings their teas and rashers on holidays and has their families send them tayto crisps etc when living abroad?

Clothes, music, religion and food are a part of people's cultural identity and that is fine. Sports I would argue, is a big part of Irish culture- just look at the predominance of GAA pitches around the country. And if anyone has a religion that is part of their belief system, so be it. Ours seems to be a leftover relic that doesn't die mostly because some want a chance to show off at every communion. Communions are about the outfit and hair and accessories (especially girls + their mothers) and the party. Please. They don't see the inside of a church other than that and confirmation, weddings, funerals and remembrance mass. Don't get me started on the harm the Catholic Church have caused.
What's your problem with what people do.

You missed the point entirely. These were points that "Tell me how" raised, which I responded to... not important points I put forward myself. So... perhaps stick to my primary points if you want to engage? ie. integration.

Tell me how

Tell me how wrote: »

I worked with a Muslim from Kenya who lives in the west of Ireland with his wife and children and they had to issue with interacting with colleagues in the work environment, or having themselves and their family engage with members of the Irish community in which they lived and their son played GAA.

Is that single piece of anecdotal specific enough for you?

Nope. Because I can throw rejoinders of Migrants who I knew from their own original countries who have since moved to Ireland and found it incredibly difficult to integrate, even though they wished to do so. Just as I know migrants (I teach English to migrants as a volunteer) who do not try even remotely to integrate.

Or how about my hosing estate which had mixture of Irish, English, Filipino, Polish, French, Chinese and Indian people living in it, and the kids from these families played amongst each others and their parents interacted in a pretty such consistent manner to how everyone else did.

Or how about the wards and theatres of every hospital in the country where people of all nationalities and backgrounds, and religions work? Let me guess, you are not talking about 'these' types of integration.

You really don't have to guess. I explained earlier about integration.... you've just chosen to put your own interpretation on what integration consists of (which I'd simply consider projections of culture), and keep avoiding actually addressing my post about integration. You keep sidestepping it.

Which fine in itself. I've gotten used to this kind of posting style on this thread.

Tell me how

Deleted User wrote: »

Nope. Because I can throw rejoinders of Migrants who I knew from their own original countries who have since moved to Ireland and found it incredibly difficult to integrate, even though they wished to do so. Just as I know migrants (I teach English to migrants as a volunteer) who do not try even remotely to integrate.



You really don't have to guess. I explained earlier about integration.... you've just chosen to put your own interpretation on what integration consists of (which I'd simply consider projections of culture), and keep avoiding actually addressing my post about integration. You keep sidestepping it.

Which fine in itself. I've gotten used to this kind of posting style on this thread.

Says a lot when someone doesn't see trying to learn the language as even a remote effort to integrate.

Tipperary animal lover

Seeing this a lot on Twitter lately, seems were all racist, not just the toe rags and eejits who spout racist s#it but all of us, not looking good for the future, funny we don't here this continously from the Asians or south Americans, but from a lot of Africans.
https://twitter.com/lcrd__/status/1294615458197450752?s=20

Eric Cartman

Tipperary animal lover wrote: »

Seeing this a lot on Twitter lately, seems were all racist, not just the toe rags and eejits who spout racist s#it but all of us, not looking good for the future, funny we don't here this continously from the Asians or south Americans, but from a lot of Africans.
https://twitter.com/lcrd__/status/1294615458197450752?s=20

why don't those people just leave Ireland so....

Tipperary animal lover

Eric Cartman wrote: »

why don't those people just leave Ireland so....

Life is to good here, say what you want with no comebacks as your racist to say anything, free reign baby

Tell me how

Tell me how wrote: »

Says a lot when someone doesn't see trying to learn the language as even a remote effort to integrate.

Well, here's the thing.

I can appreciate genuine asylum seekers who are fleeing some serious threat, and seeking protection. That makes sense to me, and I have no issue with any initial help we can provide them, but once their application is approved, they should become the same as any other citizen, with all the benefits and costs involved. The numbers involved are usually quite low, and while the percentages have increased over time, genuine asylum claims are rather low in numbers.

However, when it comes to the bogus asylum claims, or economic migrants, I'm far more.... critical. I'm an expat myself, and I live abroad most of the time (I still pay a lot in taxes in Ireland regardless), relying on my education/skills to give me access to visas and such. There are no safety nets for the countries I apply to, which is fine, since I was aware of that when I originally decided on this course. At the same time, I've known many foreigners (Asians and Africans) who I've encountered who have made the step to emmigrate to a western nation, and for the most part, these have been completely legal migrants, also relying on their education/skills to gain visas. In both cases, there is no real expectation of extra benefits because there is a certain sense of being pragmatic that comes with being educated, while also living as an expat. Whether that transforms into citizenship at a later stage is something else.

And then, I know migrants who are looking for an easier life. They come from countries where things aren't great. There's opportunities for some, but usually, these countries (Russia, Pakistan, etc) are rather corrupt, and they, the migrants, carry some of that cultural perception with them. They're out to find freebies, although, they're also prepared to work too. As with most humans, there are complexities where you'll find sometimes conflicting agendas/intentions at play.

And then, there's the people I meet while teaching English in Ireland. I do it whenever I'm home, not out of any real charitable feeling... simply because it's kinda expected in my family (we're all teachers). I enjoy it, for the most part, and I usually like the people I meet. I teach Travellers, migrants, and some Adults with literacy issues. And... yeah.. a lot of people have very little interest in learning to speak English to the level where they can work professionally. I'm not interested in the English needed to buy a packet of cigs, but the English needed for an interview, or to work professionally in an office environment. It's not only the migrants who are this way, but also many of the Travellers, although sometimes, I do meet a bright spark in the darkness.

We need to recognise that many migrants have no plans beyond arriving in a country. In some cases, they've done extremely little preparation before arriving, whether that being learning the language, or having the funds to provide for themselves. Before arriving in China, I took a variety of classes, and made sure I had enough money to live independently for 3 months without being paid.. pretty common preparations, although from conversations with those in Ireland, most hadn't prepared that much. Most had heard about the welfare state, and expected to be supported.

I'm not against multiculturalism or migration. I'm against this "Ahh, sure, it'll be grand" attitude. I want research done. I want case officers for migrants to ensure that their needs are being met, but also to ensure that they're contributing positively to the nation. I want a definite plan to integrate migrants into Irish society. Not assimilation, but integration.. But I'm not seeing any of these measures being implemented. I'm just seeing the "Ahh, sure, it'll be grand" attitude.

Oh, and when I talk about integration... I'm not talking about learning to play Hurling, or learning to dance. Or pull a decent pint. Integration, for me, is learning/accepting the values, that are common throughout western countries. The values regarding children and their protection. The basic rights of women, or free speech. The sense that we should be more than drones in an office space. etc. For me, culture is less about food, and more about behavior/attitude. That is what we need to address.. because there are extremely strong differences between nations, especially between western and non-western nations/cultures.. and that needs to be a core part of any integration efforts of migrants. Without that integration, we will see far more conflict between cultures, religions, and philosophies. It's important.

Spanish Eyes

Back in the day when life was easier, I cannot recall ever seeing any Black people in a pub.

Am I alone in thinking this?

And if I am correct why is that does anyone know.

Dyr

Tipperary animal lover wrote: »

Seeing this a lot on Twitter lately, seems were all racist, not just the toe rags and eejits who spout racist s#it but all of us, not looking good for the future, funny we don't here this continously from the Asians or south Americans, but from a lot of Africans.
https://twitter.com/lcrd__/status/1294615458197450752?s=20

People who grifted their way into the country aint gonna stop grifting once they're here

Wibbs

Petrol Head_Pilot wrote: »

Immigration and multiculturalism is ok at a certain level. It should never change or overwhelm a countries original religion or culture.

For example, conversations held a number of years ago in regards to removing crucifixes from public places in order not to offend other religions, yet we have multiple mosques and religious events held at Croke Park?

It's fine letting other religions practice but if the original religion of this country is to be removed or subdued to suit non Catholics, this is not acceptable in my belief.

Ah but P, you'll note one singular thing about the multicultural and "diversity" types who promote, or more usually swallow it wholesale then regurgitate it: It only ever goes one way. Not one of them would suggest that what Black or Yellow nations and cultures really require to be more modern and advanced and humane is more "Christian" White people. A couple have come out about colonisation etc on that matter. Pack your bags White Boy, last call for the departing guilt trip train.

Me. Earlier. Musing on why. wrote: »

One could argue that the Right On* is gung ho for "diversity", but only of a particular kind, because of the fight against what is seen as the enemy and the cause of all woes and oppression, namely the dominant western culture of the European, nominally "Christian" values of the Straight White Man his Patriarchy and other oppressor/oppressed narrative buzzwords.

One way to do this is seek to dilute the above list by bringing in non White, non Western, non Christian groups to "fix" our terrible problems as they regard them. To make things less "Christian" less White male, less European, less Western. While missing of course the obvious irony of bringing in often far more actually patriarchal and conservative cultures. Though hardliners of every stripe are notable by a complete and collective irony failure.

This goes for every country in the world, if they will allow an immigrant population to overwhelm the original population then different cultures and history will eventually be a thing of the past and that is just boring.

Like I say P, it only ever goes one way.

Tell me how wrote: »

It's all around you Wibbs. Every country, city has evolved with the influx and adoption of elements of other cultures.

Seeing as food seems to one of these positives: The Irish famously eat spuds by the truckload and a sudden capricious lack of them once killed a million of us, and yet we didn't need to bring in tens of thousands of Mesoamericans to find out about them.

As for the ghettoisation, absolutely, its a bad thing. But I would still argue that intermixed communities are much more common and widespread. You can't ignore one to focus on the other.

I can when one is significantly larger and more common than the other and the larger the population the bigger and more common they get.

And in-spite of the cases of tensions rising and occasionally breaking out in to violence, the world is a safer place when people relate more to each other and seek out collaboration rather than division.

And yet... multicultural societies are less safe than more monocultural ones and have fewer social flashpoints than the former.

That last point aside, I would argue that the continuation of some voices to point out how different we are is significantly impactful in creating the situations where people feel targeted and so seek out the protection of a group which was understandably of the same type of people.
But, as pointed out, after initially having the same experience and being treated in the same, Irish people (and others) and the natives (lets leave that aside and how misleading it is in this conversation anyway) recognized there was less need to feel threatened by each other so they start to genuinely integrate.

And yet(Part III) you didn't answer my points about the clear racial and ethnic scale of socioeconomic ratings. And no "natives" is not misleading. Native: belonging by birth to a people regarded as indigenous to a certain place, especially a preliterate people:

If I move to Sudan, live there for years, marry a local, get citizenship etc I am not Sudanese.

Stateofyou wrote: »

So no Irish person packs the Irish pubs abroad, brings their teas and rashers on holidays and has their families send them tayto crisps etc when living abroad?

Indeed they do and my visceral reaction is: "Really?? Get a life". However they're on holiday, not living there claiming they're Spanish, or Greek or whatever. Those Irish/Brit/German ex pats that end up in Marbella living there for donkey's whose only Spanish is grassyarse and porfovver while frequenting their cultural outlets and suppliers? My visceral reaction to them is: "Utter fcukwits, go the hell back home".

And if anyone has a religion that is part of their belief system, so be it. Ours seems to be a leftover relic that doesn't die mostly because some want a chance to show off at every communion. Communions are about the outfit and hair and accessories (especially girls + their mothers) and the party. Please. They don't see the inside of a church other than that and confirmation, weddings, funerals and remembrance mass. Don't get me started on the harm the Catholic Church have caused.

Your really don't seem to understand human nature at all, or knowing the exact same of showing off at festivals that Islam, Hinduism, Judaism et al do. Well except for the humourless sackcloth and ashes muppets you find everywhere. Oh and back to my point about "White Christian(if only nominally) European males(for the most part)" being the boogyman, but exotic colours and faiths are somehow exempt from being... what's the word?... Human. That kinda thinking has another angle of.. what's the word?

Tell me how wrote: »

Says a lot when someone doesn't see trying to learn the language as even a remote effort to integrate.

The basic minimum to survive you require is the local language. Means eff all for integration. African Americans speak the same language as European Americans... And by God there are loads of examples of that, not least here in this country.

Wibbs

Wibbs wrote: »

[/I]
If I move to Sudan, live there for years, marry a local, get citizenship etc I am not Sudanese.

Exactly. I've lived a decade in China... and I will always be a foreigner. It's a fact. Everyone knows this is the case, regardless of my legal status in the country It doesn't matter if I speak Mandarin fluently, understand the intricacies of their cultural norms, or have a dozen mixed children, and live there for 60 years. And while people might think that China is special in that regard, it's not. That's the norm, throughout Asia or Africa, because you are judged based on your appearance.

It's only in western countries that there is the expectation that anyone can become a citizen and therefore a "native". It's not something that you'll find in any other country worldwide, that has a predominately Asian, Black, etc (non-white) population.

Stateofyou

Wibbs wrote: »

Indeed they do and my visceral reaction is: "Really?? Get a life". However they're on holiday, not living there claiming they're Spanish, or Greek or whatever. Those Irish/Brit/German ex pats that end up in Marbella living there for donkey's whose only Spanish is grassyarse and porfovver while frequenting their cultural outlets and suppliers? My visceral reaction to them is: "Utter fcukwits, go the hell back home".

Your really don't seem to understand human nature at all, or knowing the exact same of showing off at festivals that Islam, Hinduism, Judaism et al do. Well except for the humourless sackcloth and ashes muppets you find everywhere. Oh and back to my point about "White Christian(if only nominally) European males(for the most part)" being the boogyman, but exotic colours and faiths are somehow exempt from being... what's the word?... Human. That kinda thinking has another angle of.. what's the word?

Firstly, some of that makes no sense whatsoever. Those people do "have a life," as you put it. They're actually living their own life in the best way they see fit and I actually couldn't give a toss what others do for their comforts. Your judgmental attitude says more about you than your judgements say about them. And as an expat who lived abroad for many, many years also knowing many other friends and family doing the same - we all ask for and randomly receive (thankfully!) favourite foods and news from home regularly. Sorry to burst your judgmental bubble but it's not just holidaymakers. I'd even bet that by far people living abroad like to get their comforts from 'home.'

As for the rest of your comment, no idea what your point is but you clearly missed mine. Which is that why should anyone be expected to "integrate" into superficial religion/ceremonies that we hardly follow ourselves except again, when it suits us to show off. Once asked my niece what communion was all about, and asked her about certain teachings from the bible and she had NO clue. But she did tell me all about her dress, how the mock hair style appointment went, how many would be at the party, and the bouncy castle that was ordered!
Let people live their lives and you do you. Stop being so judgemental.

Stateofyou

Wibbs wrote: »

The basic minimum to survive you require is the local language. Means eff all for integration. African Americans speak the same language as European Americans... And by God there are loads of examples of that, not least here in this country.

Ah sh!te we're all getting kicked out by Wibbs next, seeing as how most of us can't speak our own national language fluently! ha
African American's by the way, also may speak in ebonics and code switching too and they get plenty of raised backs about it. But you knew that already, right?