What are your views on Multiculturalism in Ireland? - Threadbanned User List in OP

weldoninhio

weldoninhio wrote: »

So where are the Asian teen gangs? The polish teen gangs?? Etc

Remember what I said about culture? Typically, Asian families are far more strict about their children, with boundaries of acceptable behavior, along with being far more community driven as part of their culture. The Polish would be similar. Both cultures have a strong belief in a work ethic, and the need to succeed through hard work. There are exceptions, especially in their original countries but when living in other nations they're "controlled" far more by the family units.

You have to consider the ethnic culture of the people involved. That culture shouldn't be ignored even if someone has grown up entirely in a foreign nation.

1 sheep2

Deleted User wrote: »

There is a secondary problem...

Deleted User wrote: »

Well, if you look at...

I like these two comments. Thoughtful and sympathetic assessments of what might lead to these problems. I accept that a racist response is an ever increasing risk in Ireland, but I feel that a shutdown of discussion of the fact that a category of person that was almost completely absent from Ireland twenty years ago is engaging in quite extreme violence in no way inhibits the type of people that will draw racist conclusions, and is likely to drive others towards such extremism.

'Gas-lighting' has been used as a term in the US to deny a political or social reality. Trump has engaged in a lot of it. I feel it also applies to these videos. Whenever I see one posted, people will comment saying it's Dublin Live / Liberal.ie, racist outlets, so their authenticity can't be relied on, or that their frequency is being magnified; others concede their authenticity but deny that it's a particular problem - 'Irish thugs have been doing this for decades,' etc. One's concern is always ridiculed, and not infrequently denounced as racist.

Is there a problem? Well, we don't know because it's rarely reported on and never discussed in news media. If there is, I don't trust government agencies working unacknowledged in the background to solve it. Many of the people who would be most adamant that the only problem is the people who think it's a problem would agree that in other areas of public life, the full spotlight of news coverage is essential to ensure the best outcome. If these events become more common, perhaps spawning like-for-like retaliation, there will come a point where they have to be acknowledged in the mainstream, at which time control of the narrative will have been ceded to racists.

TomTomTim

Clarence Boddiker wrote: »

Just a couple of weeks ago the media were telling us that the idea of gangs causing trouble in Balbriggan was a 'far right conspiracy theory'

Everything is a far right conspiracy until it's affirmatively been proven to be true. It wouldn't bother me so much is there was a pattern of learning along they way, but there isn't. They keep going around in a loop of denial, being wrong again and again. What annoys me most is that they do it with all of the arrogance in the world. Arrogance is never a nice trait, but it's more understandable when just, these types though, have not earned one bit of their arrogance.

Sand

TomTomTim wrote: »

Everything is a far right conspiracy until it's affirmatively been proven to be true. It wouldn't bother me so much is there was a pattern of learning along they way, but there isn't. They keep going around in a loop of denial, being wrong again and again. What annoys me most is that they do it with all of the arrogance in the world. Arrogance is never a nice trait, but it's more understandable when just, these types though, have not earned one bit of their arrogance.

The best term I've heard to describe them is midwits. Just about enough intelligence (or at least education) to believe they're too smart and enlightened to accept common sense, but not intelligent enough to actually correctly interpret and understand concepts, ideas or events by themselves.

kildare lad

weldoninhio wrote: »

So where are the Asian teen gangs? The polish teen gangs?? Etc

Probably studying or playing sport , parenting and culture has a lot to do with it .there's plenty of eastern Europeans on my son's team and they're constantly bringing their kids to training and matches every week . We've a black lad and I've never seen his dad in 4 years. We'd another black lad join the team when we were playing u9s. The coach used to pick him up and drop him home after the matches on a Sunday . After two or three weeks the coach noticed that the young lad had a key to the house and asked him where were his parents home . The kid replied that they go to one of these church groups and he does be left at home on his own . The child was only 8 . The coach stopped doing it then in case anything happened and young lad left the team .

Richard Hillman

Not that the London police have done much of a job on their gang problem but it would be worth the Gardaí picking their brains on what they think they should have done early doors when the Gang problem was just beginning.

This London gang culture needs to be cracked down on now. Its the only shot we have at it. These people are already starting to have children, so if they get on it now, it won't have to be a generational problem.

kildare lad

Richard Hillman wrote: »

Not that the London police have done much of a job on their gang problem but it would be worth the Gardaí picking their brains on what they think they should have done early doors when the Gang problem was just beginning.

This London gang culture needs to be cracked down on now. Its the only shot we have at it. These people are already starting to have children, so if they get on it now, it won't have to be a generational problem.

It's gone past that as local black politicians claim the cops are racist for doing more stop and searches on black teens even though it's mainly black teens knifing each other. The cops would then have to waste their time searching white teens so it didn't look like they were racist. You only have to look at the labour mp dawn Butler last week when the car she was in was pulled over . Straight away she'd the phone out recording them accusing the police of racial profiling . Even though the car had tinted windows. She seemed to delighted that it happened to her. She spent the next few days on all the TV and radios shows going on about systemic racism in the police. All is achieved was managing to drive more of a wedge between police and the black community with her race baiting . Btw the police in the UK have killed 13 black people in the last 10 years, and BLM and MP's like dawn Butler still want to play the victim .

Slowyourrole

dominatinMC wrote: »

What I find most damning, whenever a link is posted here illustrating the behaviour of the "new irish", is the lack of commentary from the defence. They're very quick to dismiss other points of view on this thread with the usual buzzwords of "racist", "bigot", etc. but when actual tangible evidence is posted, they are nowhere to be found. The silence is deafening.

That's because you apparently think you can prove a stereotype right simply by showing examples of a stereotype. Would you accept the stereotype that all Irish are violent drunks if I showed you a load of videos of drunk Irish people in fights or would you consider those examples to be not representative of the majority of Irish people?

dominatinMC wrote: »

Of course, people will be "upset" about the action of any gang, whether they are black, white, or yellow. But the whole basis for this thread is to debate the merits of multiculturalism, and when a symptom of multiculturalism is the importing of this kind of gang culture, it begs the question - why would anyone want it? Yes, we have our own problems, but why seek more by importing them from abroad?

But it's nothing to do with multiculturism. How is it importing gang culture when they are acting the same as the rest of the gangs In Ireland?

Cordell

It has everything to do with the fact that this particular "culture" of immigrants are growing up straight into gangs.

kildare lad

Slowyourrole wrote: »

That's because you apparently think you can prove a stereotype right simply by showing examples of a stereotype. Would you accept the stereotype that all Irish are violent drunks if I showed you a load of videos of drunk Irish people in fights or would you consider those examples to be not representative of the majority of Irish people?





But it's nothing to do with multiculturism. How is it importing gang culture when they are acting the same as the rest of the gangs In Ireland?

Well if that's the case, how come you don't see , Asian , polish or other eastern European, Chinese teenagers running amok all over Dublin , it's just blacks doing it . Can you answer me that?

weldoninhio

kildare lad wrote: »

Probably studying or playing sport , parenting and culture has a lot to do with it .there's plenty of eastern Europeans on my son's team and they're constantly bringing their kids to training and matches every week . We've a black lad and I've never seen his dad in 4 years. We'd another black lad join the team when we were playing u9s. The coach used to pick him up and drop him home after the matches on a Sunday . After two or three weeks the coach noticed that the young lad had a key to the house and asked him where were his parents home . The kid replied that they go to one of these church groups and he does be left at home on his own . The child was only 8 . The coach stopped doing it then in case anything happened and young lad left the team .

Doesn't the coach have a duty of care to inform TUSLA??

nj27

Sand wrote: »

The best term I've heard to describe them is midwits. Just about enough intelligence (or at least education) to believe they're too smart and enlightened to accept common sense, but not intelligent enough to actually correctly interpret and understand concepts, ideas or events by themselves.

It reminds me a lot of back in the late 2000s when atheism was the talk of the town online. To some, just being an atheist immediately placed you in a position of intellectual superiority over theists. A lot of far left types online adopt similar reasoning to their political views. Conservative/right-wing = stupid, regardless of any other considerations. They might actually be the very same smug atheists who have now moved on to something more in vogue.

Petrol Head_Pilot

I see they are integrating very well in Balbriggan.....

Bobblehats

Slowyourrole wrote: »

But it's nothing to do with multiculturism. How is it importing gang culture when they are acting the same as the rest of the gangs In Ireland?

I remember there were no Irish gangs

Modern black culture; or rap culture is the greatest rot our society will ever know. Sometimes it has become just so omnipresent that we don't even know

kildare lad

weldoninhio wrote: »

Doesn't the coach have a duty of care to inform TUSLA??

He'd a chat with the parents and the kid got brought to church instead of football on a Sunday

Bobblehats

Bobblehats wrote: »

I remember there were no Irish gangs

Modern black culture; or rap culture is the greatest rot our society will ever know. Sometimes it has become just so omnipresent that we don't even know

I don't, and I'm in my 40s. Unless you're going back into the 70s or 60s?

There were always gangs around, and some of them could be outright nasty... however, we had a much stricter society with clear rules regarding acceptable behavior, also with a pretty clear idea of what would happen when you broke those rules.

Teens typically didn't mess with adults because they knew that they'd be taken to account later, but with the ever increasing desire to protect children, and the removal of corporal punishment, teens began to understand that they had the upper hand in situations. Even more so, where minorities were concerned because they could throw out the victim or disadvantaged card as an excuse.

People like to focus on the positive aspects of changes (like protecting children from abuse) while dismissing that those changes could have unforeseen side effects. And they always do.

I remember a pub chat I had with friends about a decade ago, after I'd come back to Ireland for a holiday. They were talking about a group of youths (Irish) who were driving around looking for people out walking alone at night, they'd stop and beat the crap out of the target. The issue they were concerned about was they didn't know, for sure, how much they could defend themselves if attacked. If you did real damage while defending yourself to a teen, you'd likely be facing jail time yourself.

That's one of the consequences of the social changes that happen for good reasons but have unintended consequences. The gang was eventually caught, and done by the Gardai but there's been a variety of other groups doing similar over the last decade, and people are still uncomfortable with defending themselves.

This is one of the reasons we see gangs of youths, whether they're Irish or migrants, because we don't have clear guidelines of how to deal with them. Many people will bow to threats because they know that defending themselves could easily land them in worse trouble... which, in turn, emboldens the gangs to behave the way they do, because they know the confusion out there, and will take advantage of it.

Yellow_Fern

kildare lad wrote: »

Well if that's the case, how come you don't see , Asian , polish or other eastern European, Chinese teenagers running amok all over Dublin , it's just blacks doing it . Can you answer me that?

High rates of unemployment. Although Africans in Ireland are rather highly educated I suspect the quality is less than other groupings.

Bobblehats

Deleted User wrote: »

I don't, and I'm in my 40s. Unless you're going back into the 70s or 60s?

Ok there were “gangs” like say the get along gang, or bash street kids. Maybe the occasional ruckus involving a few studded knuckledusters after a horselips gig or that but they didn’t aspire to being true gangbangers, in the modern sense you know what I’m saying? The culture just wasn’t there.

Kivaro

Yellow_Fern wrote: »

Although Africans in Ireland are rather highly educated I suspect the quality is less than other groupings.

Out of curiosity, what is the source for this? There was a discussion recently about the self-declaration of Africans who claimed university degrees without verification e.g. it is very easy to state in an asylum application that you hold an undergraduate/graduate degree. Their high rates of unemployment in Ireland would not tend to corroborate it though.
Obviously not talking about the highly educated Africans in Ireland whose education was verified e.g. doctors etc. I'm talking about the others, who represent the majority of them here.

1 sheep2

Slowyourrole wrote: »

If I showed you a load of videos of drunk Irish people in fights or would you consider those examples to be not representative of the majority of Irish people?

I'm not necessarily endorsing whatever the person you were responding to was saying, but I think videos such as those you mention do reflect on Irish society. When I hear that Irish people are causing trouble in Australia, I don't dismiss it by saying the majority of Irish don't behave that way.

Yellow_Fern

Kivaro wrote: »

Out of curiosity, what is the source for this? There was a discussion recently about the self-declaration of Africans who claimed university degrees without verification e.g. it is very easy to state in an asylum application that you hold an undergraduate/graduate degree. Their high rates of unemployment in Ireland would not tend to corroborate it though.
Obviously not talking about the highly educated Africans in Ireland whose education was verified e.g. doctors etc. I'm talking about the others, who represent the majority of them here.

O’Connell, Philip J. "Why are so few Africans at work in Ireland? Immigration policy and labour market disadvantage." Irish Journal of Sociology 27.3 (2019): 273-295.

I have spent a bit of time in African universities in eastern and southern areas. The quality isnt great sadly.


BTW I think it is wrong to single out Africans. The writing is on the wall that we are creating underclasses of eastern Europeans too, but it seems to less as severe so far. Quite amazing to look at prison rates though. Relative to these groups. others like north americans are so law abiding. We had only 20 north americans in our prisons in 2012 but about 500 Africans and Asians and another 1200 Europeans.

Sir Oxman

1 sheep2 wrote: »

I'm not necessarily endorsing whatever the person you were responding to was saying, but I think videos such as those you mention do reflect on Irish society. When I hear that Irish people are causing trouble in Australia, I don't dismiss it by saying the majority of Irish don't behave that way.

Good point.

Bobblehats

Bobblehats wrote: »

Ok there were “gangs” like say the get along gang, or bash street kids. Maybe the occasional ruckus involving a few studded knuckledusters after a horselips gig or that but they didn’t aspire to being true gangbangers, in the modern sense you know what I’m saying? The culture just wasn’t there.

The culture wasn't there because such behavior wasn't tolerated. The moment the police got wind of it, it would have been shut down hard. And if not the police, the local adults would have taken a step to handle it.

Such gangs are able to operate because of the changes within our own society, and the lack of definite means to deal with them. There is a culture of indecision within western societies regarding the hard choices. Easy enough to make the changes that appear to be positive, but anything even remotely negative, and it needs endless discussion beforehand. It's not simply the case of migrants. It's about dealing with the changes that have happened within our society over the last three decades, and facing up to the reality that the changes implemented have made us vulnerable to behavior like this.

iebamm2580

kildare lad wrote: »

It's gone past that as local black politicians claim the cops are racist for doing more stop and searches on black teens even though it's mainly black teens knifing each other. The cops would then have to waste their time searching white teens so it didn't look like they were racist. You only have to look at the labour mp dawn Butler last week when the car she was in was pulled over . Straight away she'd the phone out recording them accusing the police of racial profiling . Even though the car had tinted windows. She seemed to delighted that it happened to her. She spent the next few days on all the TV and radios shows going on about systemic racism in the police. All is achieved was managing to drive more of a wedge between police and the black community with her race baiting . Btw the police in the UK have killed 13 black people in the last 10 years, and BLM and MP's like dawn Butler still want to play the victim .

she wasnt even driving, i think the driver was white.

ExMachina1000

Some lines taken from yesterday's indo

"33.8% of immigrants into Ireland were irish nationals "

" 85,400 estimated number of immigrants in the year to April 2020"

"Garda public order unit has been deployed to ballbriggan and other affected areas ( eircode gangs) on a large number of occasions in the past month "

"In general the issue seems to be escalating "

"Gardai say a particular modus operandi for the teenage gangs is to record rap songs in which their rivals are goaded and mocked"

"Gardai are deeply concerned about the increasingly violent activities of gangs of teenagers who have been naming their groups from the eircode of the towns and areas in Dublin where they live to distinguish themselves from their rivals "

"For the fifth consecutive year, non irish nationals from outside the EU were the largest single group of inward migrants "

Bobblehats

Just ban rap! Start by removing it from the crèches. Put heavy metal on the school curriculum. Like in Finland; where their faculties are occupied instead of just running their mouths. Steep them in Irish culture; imbibe them in celtic lore and who knows we may make a few “phil lynotts” out of them yet

Richard Hillman

They can have all the moderate level degrees as they want, the reality is nobody wants to hire them.

Large companies may hire them to bump their "Diversity" stats but small and medium are looking for people that are qualified but will get on well with the people in the office. And they will always go for somebody of a similar culture. Now the medias over emphasis on Racism will make it worse. Hire somebody of African origin? That could me a minefield, I'll stick to one of our own.

Politicians just don't seem to understand that society just doesn't want them here. The ideolitic Germans and Swedes thought they could import millions of non skilled Africans and South Asians to fill non skilled jobs. The reality was that their people didn't want them and now they just hang around train stations.

Essentially they are importing ethnic groupings to condemn them to generations of non skilled work or none at all. Because when it comes to the middle class type jobs, they are always deemed to be a bit tricky to work with.

The UK important thousands upon thousands of West Indians and Pakistanis to help rebuild agyet the war. Guess what? Society didn't want them and now they live in Gang Ridden conclaves.

It has been a disaster everywhere.
Uk - Disaster
Belgium - Disaster
France - Disaster
Germany - Disaster
Italy - Disaster
Sweden - Disaster

It doesn't work folks, never has worked, never will, it has a 100% Fail Rate.

TomTomTim

Richard Hillman wrote: »

They can have all the moderate level degrees as they want, the reality is nobody wants to hire them.

Large companies may hire them to bump their "Diversity" stats but small and medium are looking for people that are qualified but will get on well with the people in the office. And they will always go for somebody of a similar culture. Now the medias over emphasis on Racism will make it worse. Hire somebody of African origin? That could me a minefield, I'll stick to one of our own.

Politicians just don't seem to understand that society just doesn't want them here. The ideolitic Germans and Swedes thought they could import millions of non skilled Africans and South Asians to fill non skilled jobs. The reality was that their people didn't want them and now they just hang around train stations.

Essentially they are importing ethnic groupings to condemn them to generations of non skilled work or none at all. Because when it comes to the middle class type jobs, they are always deemed to be a bit tricky to work with.

The UK important thousands upon thousands of West Indians and Pakistanis to help rebuild agyet the war. Guess what? Society didn't want them and now they live in Gang Ridden conclaves.

It has been a disaster everywhere.
Uk - Disaster
Belgium - Disaster
France - Disaster
Germany - Disaster
Italy - Disaster
Sweden - Disaster

It doesn't work folks, never has worked, never will, it has a 100% Fail Rate.

Nail on the head. Unless the newly incoming group are willing to give their previous culture away, then chaos will ensue. It simply becomes a game of competing cultures, where one will eventually win. To win of course, there has to be a fight, which greatly reduces social cohesion. Cultures simply can't exist side by side, it goes against the very nature of a functional society. Progressives simply live in la la land, they think themselves so wise and enlightened that they can achieve things that have never been achieved before.

ExMachina1000

Richard Hillman wrote: »

They can have all the moderate level degrees as they want, the reality is nobody wants to hire them.

Large companies may hire them to bump their "Diversity" stats but small and medium are looking for people that are qualified but will get on well with the people in the office. And they will always go for somebody of a similar culture. Now the medias over emphasis on Racism will make it worse. Hire somebody of African origin? That could me a minefield, I'll stick to one of our own.

Politicians just don't seem to understand that society just doesn't want them here. The ideolitic Germans and Swedes thought they could import millions of non skilled Africans and South Asians to fill non skilled jobs. The reality was that their people didn't want them and now they just hang around train stations.

Essentially they are importing ethnic groupings to condemn them to generations of non skilled work or none at all. Because when it comes to the middle class type jobs, they are always deemed to be a bit tricky to work with.

The UK important thousands upon thousands of West Indians and Pakistanis to help rebuild agyet the war. Guess what? Society didn't want them and now they live in Gang Ridden conclaves.

It has been a disaster everywhere.
Uk - Disaster
Belgium - Disaster
France - Disaster
Germany - Disaster
Italy - Disaster
Sweden - Disaster

It doesn't work folks, never has worked, never will, it has a 100% Fail Rate.

Absolutely spot on.
There are hundreds of thousands of eastern Europeans here for example. I see them in all sorts of businesses and at all levels. They have been brilliant for our economy. They put the shoulder to the wheel day in day out.
The reason they have been so successful and have integrated well is because they are culturally similar to us.

Once you deviate from that type of immigration you run into problems. It's been repeated throughout Europe as in the examples you gave. It's our turn now and with a border tightened post Brexit UK coming up fast the numbers arriving here will only go in one direction.

Jump_In_Jack

As long as people abide by the laws of the land and can earn a living it shouldn’t matter what culture or religion they have.

It would be better if all immigrants would at least have the possibility to marry Irish people and have children with mixed culture households but there will most likely always be religious divisions and cultural divisions that will prevent that in certain cases which is probably where people will not integrate properly over generations and will inevitably give rise to some level of alienation.

The critical point is that the person that won’t integrate into Irish society has to be gainfully employed, because otherwise if a minority does not integrate and falls into poverty there will be an increased risk of mutual resentment between them and Irish people.