What are your views on Multiculturalism in Ireland? - Threadbanned User List in OP

TheCitizen

Mr. Karate wrote: »

I used to joke with my Mom that we have more Polish friends here than Irish [from Church and the Karate clubs] that I used to say that we might as well have just moved to Poland instead of Ireland.

Where do you think karate came from? Here’s a hint it wasn’t Poland or Ireland

TheCitizen

TheCitizen wrote: »

Where do you think karate came from? Here’s a hint it wasn’t Poland or Ireland

Not really sure the point you wanted to make...

And yet, Karate didn't actually come from migration either. Karate was used by many professional armies as a basis for unarmed combat for many years (even prior to WW2), which is why many karate (and Judo) clubs were opened up by Sensei's who came from the military (including the Irish Army).

TheCitizen

TheCitizen wrote: »

A disgusting thread populated by racist right wing loons.

Am I included in that sweeping statement?

Richard Hillman

TheCitizen wrote: »

Amazing. Twist the posters comment, strawman the hell out of it, call him a coward and get loads of “thanks”. Then follow it up with Dublin will look like a war zone a few year blah blah blah. A disgusting thread populated by racist right wing loons.

Why do you think we will be different? What makes our country different that will prevent the incidents and cultures from replicating what has happened in the UK, France, Holland, Belgium, Germany, Italy, Sweden?

Cordell

TheCitizen wrote: »

Amazing. Twist the posters comment, strawman the hell out of it, call him a coward and get loads of “thanks”. Then follow it up with Dublin will look like a war zone a few year blah blah blah. A disgusting thread populated by racist right wing loons.

No one gettin stabbed here though.

Mr. Karate

Richard Hillman wrote: »

Why do you think we will be different? What makes our country different that will prevent the incidents and cultures from replicating what has happened in the UK, France, Holland, Belgium, Germany, Italy, Sweden?

Because Leo and Michael said it would be.

jmreire

Deleted User wrote: »

Am I included in that sweeping statement?

There are several posters here , and unless you agree 100% with them, then you are automatically racist and bigoted...reminds me of the ordure that was poured on Peter Casey's head because of his stance on Travellers during the Presidential election.. so even the 333'000 people who voted for him were racist and bigoted too,,,automatically.:cool:

RasTa

ExMachina1000 wrote: »

Scroll down through "London 999" on Twitter. Incident posts from around the UK. The place is a warzone. Every single day there are dozens and dozens of stabbings, acid attacks, shootings and general mayhem and violence

lol, for people who live on the internet maybe. London in real life, isn't that bad.

MEGA BRO WOLF 5000

RasTa wrote: »

lol, for people who live on the internet maybe. London in real life, isn't that bad.

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2020/sep/06/bexley-stabbing-london-five-arrested-five-injured

Last night alone. Yeah I'd say it's pretty bad, and yes I did Live in London almost 20 years ago and each time I visit it gets progressively more multicultural and worse.

RasTa

Hunky Monster wrote: »

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2020/sep/06/bexley-stabbing-london-five-arrested-five-injured

Last night alone. Yeah I'd say it's pretty bad, and yes I did Live in London almost 20 years ago and each time I visit it gets progressively more multicultural and worse.

I'm down once a month. Yet to witness a stabbing, acid attack etc. Some parts are a bit shocking with all the asians but mainly granny's. Manchester where I live is worse but that's the spice heads. They stick out more imo.

jmreire

jmreire wrote: »

There are several posters here , and unless you agree 100% with them, then you are automatically racist and bigoted...reminds me of the ordure that was poured on Peter Casey's head because of his stance on Travellers during the Presidential election.. so even the 333'000 people who voted for him were racist and bigoted too,,,automatically.:cool:

It's not really 'serious' posters though. Posters like "TheCitizen" sweep into the thread, call everyone within the thread a racist/right wing, and then leave without providing any specifics, or evidence to support the statement.

IMHO, posters like him/her/it are the genuine Bigots, because they're completely intolerant of other people's opinions, and feel the need to insult those with differing viewpoints.

The funny thing is that generally those who engage in actual discussion are treated politely by the supposedly "racists and right wing" posters, whereas those up on their ivory thrones of purity are rather insulting. Must be some kind of superiority complex thingy.

In my experience, the racists don't stay long, just firing out a few nasty comments and disappearing.. and ring wing? Haven't seen anyone like that in months, in spite of all the claims that boards has been taken over by them.

RasTa

RasTa wrote: »

lol, for people who live on the internet maybe. London in real life, isn't that bad.

Compared to what though?

London was always quite dodgy in many areas in the evenings, and they've had many issues with crime throughout the last few decades. The sad thing about western cities, especially capitals, is that few of them are all that safe. Compare London to Tokyo...

Considering the continuing shift in the demographics of London, it's hard to deny that it's got serious issues to contend with.

Munsterman12

It's crazy the amount of foreigners here. Out of control if you ask me.

Munsterman12

Munsterman12 wrote: »

It's crazy the amount of foreigners here. Out of control if you ask me.

Here? I assume you mean Ireland?

I think it depends on what you mean by foreigners. Skilled/educated migrants in decent employment contribute, and typically, push their children to excel in a different country. Migrants on the lower end of the scale, are more of a mixed bag. Some will be very hardworking, but due to the socio-economic issues of being on the lowest level of incomes (in an expensive first world nation, and Ireland is expensive in comparison to many other countries), their children are more likely to feel discriminated against... a lot of that being the entitlement culture that's spread, and the belief that everything should be "fair".

Generally speaking though, "foreigners" aren't an issue. Most foreigners come in legally, have jobs organised beforehand, and are here just for a few years. It's the low end migrants which generate the most problems, from the economic supports they need, to the increased educational supports (language learning, upskilling, etc), through to the possibility of social unrest (like the gangs).

I quite like how "diverse" Ireland has become... I just don't like the lack of serious planning and appreciation for the difficulties that will come from so many different cultures, once their populations rise to the extent where they'll feel comfortable extending their own influence. Many foreign cultures are at odds with each other, due to religious, cultural, or historical reasons. That's going to be a big problem over the next few decades... as the populations of those cultures rise. In small numbers, they're not going to express the baggage they have.. but with larger numbers? Yeah. So.. I don't like the short term thinking about foreigners, and the lack of insight into the conflicts that many cultural groups have with each other, and more importantly, with "the West". Which we are, a part of, due to our skin colour, and location.

onlinenerd

Munsterman12 wrote: »

It's crazy the amount of foreigners here. Out of control if you ask me.

Scared of seeing a tanned skin?

Hamachi

onlinenerd wrote: »

Scared of seeing a tanned skin?

Given that the majority of foreigners here do not possess a ‘tanned skin’, this is a moot point. No doubt, the inference is that anybody concerned about the rate of inward migration is an irredeemable racist.

The country is now officially in a severe Covid-driven recession. The time has come to put the brakes on migration to Ireland. If this means getting tough on spurious asylum claims and curtailing the extraordinary influx of ‘English’ students, so be it.

onlinenerd

Hamachi wrote: »

Given that the majority of foreigners here do not possess a ‘tanned skin’, this is a moot point. No doubt, the inference is that anybody concerned about the rate of inward migration is an irredeemable racist.

The country is now officially in a severe Covid-driven recession. The time has come to put the brakes on migration to Ireland. If this means getting tough on spurious asylum claims and curtailing the extraordinary influx of ‘English’ students, so be it.

Seeing by your point foreigners don't have tanned skin, I would refrain from tarring all "different" people with the same brush. Just because its a recession we cant tell these "different" people to go away on their boats as the vast majority of them are hard-working people and from your view point I would also assume the teachers in the middle east and native Irish in Australia be sent back?

Also the economic migrants are people as they contributed before the Covid driven recession and so they they should be equally looked after as these are not some robots here for amusement and cant just tell them to back their bags just because Ireland is in recession. Regarding the asylum claims, I agree with you.

Hamachi

onlinenerd wrote: »

Seeing by your point foreigners don't have tanned skin, I would refrain from tarring all "different" people with the same brush. Just because its a recession we cant tell these "different" people to go away on their boats as the vast majority of them are hard-working people and from your view point I would also assume the teachers in the middle east and native Irish in Australia be sent back?

Also the economic migrants are people as they contributed before the Covid driven recession and so they they should be equally looked after as these are not some robots here for amusement and cant just tell them to back their bags just because Ireland is in recession. Regarding the asylum claims, I agree with you.

You’re the one who brought skin color into the argument, not me. Nice job back pedaling when called out on it.

Who said anything about removing people already living and gainfully employed here? You’re reacting to a phantom argument. My point is that the time has now come to regulate the flow of future inward migration. We are entering a sustained period of deep economic uncertainty.

It’s time to consolidate and re-build as we navigate the post-Covid world. That’s the point of inward migration. The flow must be regulated and potentially turned off, when the economic opportunities no longer exist. Ireland has now reached that juncture.

I’m not sure where you’re going with false equivalence of Irish professionals in the UAE and Australia. If they are there legally and contributing, there’s no reason their stay should not be prolonged. However, if another jurisdiction decided to significantly slash their future migrant intake, I’m totally supportive of that given global economic uncertainty.

onlinenerd

onlinenerd wrote: »

Seeing by your point foreigners don't have tanned skin, I would refrain from tarring all "different" people with the same brush. Just because its a recession we cant tell these "different" people to go away on their boats as the vast majority of them are hard-working people and from your view point I would also assume the teachers in the middle east and native Irish in Australia be sent back?

Well... you're mixing migrants up here by your own phrasing. If they've come through boats, then they're most likely illegal, or under an Asylum process claim. So, comparing them to Irish people who have gone elsewhere under legal migrants as skilled labor doesn't really work. (yeah.. try going to the M.East illegally as a white person.. it won't work out well for you)

Secondly, you introduced the tanned skin comment, which, in itself is quite racist, and ignorant of the situation. A large percentage of migrants who come to Ireland come from countries with various degrees of White skin. So....

Lastly, where is your evidence that the vast majority are hard working? Go on.. would love to see it.

Also the economic migrants are people as they contributed before the Covid driven recession and so they they should be equally looked after as these are not some robots here for amusement and cant just tell them to back their bags just because Ireland is in recession. Regarding the asylum claims, I agree with you.

Actually, most economic migrants come from much poorer nations, with substandard education, and are often lacking in English language ability. Their contributions are usually on the bottom end of the workplaces... and that's if they are working. Many are on welfare, or are still within the asylum process receiving aid from the Irish State, so any such claims of contributions are suspect.

Once again, you seem to be unsure of the origins of these migrants in Ireland. You call them economic migrants, but that's an extremely vague term.

Hamachi

Hamachi wrote: »

It’s time to consolidate and re-build as we navigate the post-Covid world. That’s the point of inward migration. The flow must be regulated and potentially turned off, when the economic opportunities no longer exist. Ireland has now reached that juncture.
.

Regardless of covid, it's time to consolidate and deal with the cracks in society that are beginning to appear. Ireland needs solid plans on how to integrate the current population of migrants, and a way to provide them with the skills/education, along with a sense of national pride within Ireland.

Considering the problems with depopulation of rural areas, issues with the health service, a national debt, property/rental issues, lack of confidence in political parties, etc etc etc. Ireland has a load of problems that it should seek to resolve, before encouraging an influx of migrants, who likely will place greater strains on the system.

There's been far too much deferral of the problems on to the next government, and the next, and the next. The best way that Irish people can help migrants and asylum seekers, is by providing a stable society with a strong vibrant economy.. Or we can continue as before, with everyone heading towards 2nd world status together.

Eric Cartman

Deleted User wrote: »

Well... you're mixing migrants up here by your own phrasing. If they've come through boats, then they're most likely illegal, or under an Asylum process claim. So, comparing them to Irish people who have gone elsewhere under legal migrants as skilled labor doesn't really work. (yeah.. try going to the M.East illegally as a white person.. it won't work out well for you)

Secondly, you introduced the tanned skin comment, which, in itself is quite racist, and ignorant of the situation. A large percentage of migrants who come to Ireland come from countries with various degrees of White skin. So....

Lastly, where is your evidence that the vast majority are hard working? Go on.. would love to see it.

We've all presented facts over and over again, from housing agencies, OECD agencies, EU stats, Police stats in other countries, reports from NGO's , reports from governments themselves, time and time and time again.

single digit percentages of the migrants went to college, even still those colleges mightn't have qualifications recognised in the EU, as a group non EU migrants are economic detractors from their host nations, reunifying families cements this economic detraction and even intergenerationally it rarely balances up.

Non EU migrants cause more crime than natives, have lower employment and education than natives, some cultures (particularly islamic and African) are responsible for things like FGM and higher rates of violence and abuse against women and members of the lgbt community.

There is no hard data to show that any Western European country accepting migrants from Africa, arab nations etc... is in any way positive. Even those agencies who plead and beg for us to let them in (for their own profit) can only muddy the waters and dismiss the negatives, they don't even have positives to promote.

Maybe we could just suggest that we take in 100k Asians from China, Korea, Japan instead of Arabs/Africans. Somehow I suspect it wouldn't be allowed, which is a pity since Asians typically do extremely well in western nations and contribute only a tiny amount in the way of crime (not including Australia, as their Asian led crime is due to a wide range of factors). Asians also usually don't seek to change the culture/laws/etc of their host nation.

Hamachi

Klaz, you have the patience of a saint. I’ve lost count of the number of times you have dispelled myths and disambiguated confused and misleading arguments throughout this thread. It’s quite something to behold.

Returning to my point, I firmly believe that it’s critical that the government gets handle on inward migration right now. The economy has just contracted by an unprecedented 6.1% quarter-on-quarter. There is simply no economic imperative for large scale migration. The time for entertaining dubious asylum seekers and permitting an influx of language students to work in low-skilled, precarious employment has to end.

I suspect there will be a significant amount of natural attrition. People simply will not come here if the opportunities do not exist. However, the government also needs to get more proactive. All future economic migration should be strictly limited to a small cohort of high skilled roles that truly cannot be filled domestically or across the wider EU, at a stretch. Similarly, those students, primarily from Latin America, should be encouraged to return home as their temporary visas expire. The current practice of staying on indefinitely must be discontinued.

Eric Cartman

Deleted User wrote: »

Maybe we could just suggest that we take in 100k Asians from China, Korea, Japan instead of Arabs/Africans. Somehow I suspect it wouldn't be allowed, which is a pity since Asians typically do extremely well in western nations and contribute only a tiny amount in the way of crime (not including Australia, as their Asian led crime is due to a wide range of factors). Asians also usually don't seek to change the culture/laws/etc of their host nation.

Id welcome this , even Ukranian/former soviet migrants , we turn away Georgians at a phenomenal rate.

croatian immigrants actually upset the stats so much on employment because they (pre EU) were immigrating with over a 90% employment rate.

UrbanSprawl

My views dont matter nor does yours the way of the world

Hamachi

Hamachi wrote: »

Klaz, you have the patience of a saint. I’ve lost count of the number of times you have dispelled myths and disambiguated confused and misleading arguments throughout this thread. It’s quite something to behold.

I teach Business Management, along with Business Ethics to Chinese students in English. Trust me... I've developed my patience over time.

Still, thanks... although I have to admit that my patience has began to wear thin over the last few weeks on boards. Just too many ignorant posters out to insult others, and not engage in logical/rational debate. Far too much virtue signalling, and ivory tower superiority complexes.

Returning to my point, I firmly believe that it’s critical that the government gets handle on inward migration right now. The economy has just contracted by an unprecedented 6.1% quarter-on-quarter. There is simply no economic imperative for large scale migration. The time for entertaining dubious asylum seekers and permitting an influx of language students to work in low-skilled, precarious employment has to end.

The 6.1% contraction.. I'm not in such a rush as others to cry disaster. There's simply too much going on with Europe, China, and the US, to jump to conclusions. Ireland is still in a pretty good shape economically. I think a lot of people have forgotten what the last real recession was like, and are jumping at shadows.

In any case, I would agree that Ireland's approach to migration needs to end. Less "It'll be grand", and more of ensuring that it'll be grand. Stop reacting to events, and take a more leading role in determining what happens.

I suspect there will be a significant amount of natural attrition. People simply will not come here if the opportunities do not exist. However, the government also needs to get more proactive. All future economic migration should be strictly limited to a small cohort of high skilled roles that truly cannot be filled domestically or across the wider EU at a stretch. Similarly, those students, primarily from Latin America, should be encouraged to return home as their temporary visas expire. The current practice of staying on indefinitely must be discontinued.

haha... they're going to come here more than ever. The problems in the world affect their countries more than it does ours, because their economies are extremely weak, and completely tied to the larger powers. All the major powers are shuffling around both economically, and militarily... which means economies in Africa are going to fail. The M.East is still a mess, and it will continue to be a middle ground for the major powers to fight over. China is losing influence and agreements in Africa, due to US pressure, but, the US aren't going to protect those countries who withdraw from China's shadow, and China has a long memory for perceived betrayals (added to their victim complex).

I could go on, but there's little point. The world outside the west is pretty fcuked right now, and it's going to get a lot worse.

Ireland will be a prime target for migrants because it's a neutral country, not in NATO, has a decent economy, and has a savior complex. Along with a certain susceptibility to "white guilt" for some bizarre reason.

Irish people will look at our economy, the problems and consider it a recession. A time of hardship. Those from 3rd world nations will continue to see Ireland as a place of opportunity. That's not going to change unless Ireland returns to what it was like in the 60s.

UrbanSprawl

UrbanSprawl wrote: »

My views dont matter nor does yours the way of the world

I don't agree. Voicing opinions is important because it helps to clarify thoughts, and to establish frames of logical thinking. Beyond that, nobody truly knows how much a casual encounter with a decent conversation can have on the world we live in.

I don't have much faith in democracy.. but I have a lot of faith in individuality. We all make a mark on the world we live in. Some more so than others, but it's impossible to know how great that mark will be beforehand.

Hamachi

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Ireland will be a prime target for migrants because it's a neutral country, not in NATO, has a decent economy, and has a savior complex. Along with a certain susceptibility to "white guilt" for some bizarre reason.

Irish people will look at our economy, the problems and consider it a recession. A time of hardship. Those from 3rd world nations will continue to see Ireland as a place of opportunity. That's not going to change unless Ireland returns to what it was like in the 60s.

From a personal perspective, I find this prediction quite saddening. The demographic changes in Ireland throughout the last two decades have been truly astounding. From a nation of ~98% indigenous to a foreign-born population of at least 17%. This pace of change is breakneck speed and appears to be accelerating.

I have an 18-month old with another wee one on the way. I’m deeply concerned about the type of Ireland they will inherit. I deliberately returned* to this country to ensure that my children were raised as Irish and are steeped in the culture of their parents, grand parents and all those who went before.

Given the profound demographic change and the insistence of a small, but vocal minority to denigrate Irish culture in favor of multiculturalism, my fear is that my children will emerge into a fragmented, unconfident society with little social capital and where ‘Irishness’ is perceived as something suspect. Perhaps, I’m being too pessimistic, but I mourn the fact that they will not grow up in a relatively stable and cohesive society, even if it was less affluent.

*Before I’m accused of hypocrisy, I was a legal immigrant in a skilled role in another EU state. I also spoke the language to reasonably high level before I migrated. Never claimed welfare and contributed ~50% of my salary in taxation for almost a decade.

Hamachi

Hamachi wrote: »

Given the profound demographic change and the insistence of a small, but vocal minority to denigrate Irish culture in favor of multiculturalism, my fear is that my children will emerge into a fragmented, unconfident society with little social capital and where ‘Irishness’ is perceived as something suspect. Perhaps, I’m being too pessimistic, but I mourn the fact that they will not grow up in a relatively stable and cohesive society, even if it was less affluent.
.

Yeah, well... that ship has sailed. All you can do is create a localised bubble, and hope for the best. Or move to the West of Ireland or other less prosperous areas, which do retain a lot more "Irishness", and less of the problems adopted in the more prosperous areas. Although, It is dying there too.

Ireland would need to encourage some pride in being Irish. Not just for a football match, but as a nation and as a people... but that's unlikely to happen. Nationalism is a bad word now, automatically associated with Republicans, or Supremacy.

onlinenerd

Hamachi wrote: »

From a personal perspective, I find this prediction quite saddening. The demographic changes in Ireland throughout the last two decades have been truly astounding. From a nation of ~98% indigenous to a foreign-born population of at least 17%. This pace of change is breakneck speed and appears to be accelerating.

I have an 18-month old with another wee one on the way. I’m deeply concerned about the type of Ireland they will inherit. I deliberately returned* to this country to ensure that my children were raised as Irish and are steeped in the culture of their parents, grand parents and all those who went before.

Given the profound demographic change and the insistence of a small, but vocal minority to denigrate Irish culture in favor of multiculturalism, my fear is that my children will emerge into a fragmented, unconfident society with little social capital and where ‘Irishness’ is perceived as something suspect. Perhaps, I’m being too pessimistic, but I mourn the fact that they will not grow up in a relatively stable and cohesive society, even if it was less affluent.

*Before I’m accused of hypocrisy, I was a legal immigrant in a skilled role in another EU state. I also spoke the language to reasonably high level before I migrated. Never claimed welfare and contributed ~50% of my salary in taxation for almost a decade.

I don't see why people are so afraid of change.Cultures evolve and change over the years and so there's no point crying over the fact that my child is going to live in a different society than I did.

Also the hypocrisy is laughable at the fact that you were an immigrant in another EU country and reaped the benefits of the job but suddenly selfish when some foreigner is taking advantage of the same benefits in Ireland. Move along with the times.