What are your views on Multiculturalism in Ireland? - Threadbanned User List in OP

Tony EH

^
Nobody mentioned "mass immigration".

Sand

Tony EH wrote: »

^
Nobody mentioned "mass immigration".

Ireland is in a situation where 17.3% of the population was born abroad. If you're not talking about mass immigration then what are you talking about?

Das Reich

DrGreenThumb82 wrote: »

Which multicultural society are we trying to emulate?

Because if it is the U.S., France, Sweden or the UK then thanks but no thanks.

The most multicultural country in the world is Brazil, also the one with most homicides. Brazil is 50 or 100 years in advance compared to the countries you wrote that started to have multiculturalism very recently. Everyone that supports multiculturalism should live an year in Brazil or Colombia the two most diverse countries on the world.

Tony EH

Sand wrote: »

Ireland is in a situation where 17.3% of the population was born abroad. If you're not talking about mass immigration then what are you talking about?

I said "immigration is fine". I didn't put a quantity on it.

You're seeing what you want to see.

Sand

Tony EH wrote: »

I said "immigration is fine". I didn't put a quantity on it.

You're seeing what you want to see.

I too agree that migration, in general, is okay. However, that is not what is being discussed. Migration does not create multiculturalism. Small numbers of immigrants either get along or they leave. They cannot create their own cultures alien to the indigenous people so there is no systematic effect. Multiculturalism on the other hand requires mass migration. Massive numbers of immigrants can create their own communities where there is little or no need to interact with, let alone integrate with, the indigenous people.

We might be violently agreeing, so I'll leave it at that but I still don't accept that the problem is that the vast number of migrants is not 'integrating'. I don't blame them for that. When migration is so huge, they don't have to integrate and they wont any more than British and Irish tourists do when holidaying in Spain. The root cause of the problem is mass migration. It is a numbers game. Period.

Tony EH

Sand wrote: »

I too agree that migration, in general, is okay. However, that is not what is being discussed.

What's being discussed are people's views on multiculturalism.

For my part, and the post you replied to, I mentioned only that I think that "immigration is fine". I didn't state anything else about it. You saw that as "mass immigration" and started going off about ideology and Alan Shatter.

There was nothing in my post that prompted your reply to it, other than what you thought you saw.

The actual thrust of my post is that I don't think multiculturalism works, or can work. Nor have I seen it work anywhere else.

olestoepoke

TomTomTim wrote: »

I was just checking your post history. You're actually trying to shame advertisers now because people are talking about thing you don't like. That's pathetic to say the least.

You know what else is pathetic, checking another members post history.:D

2u2me

Sand wrote: »

I still don't accept that the problem is that the vast number of migrants is not 'integrating'. I don't blame them for that. When migration is so huge, they don't have to integrate and they wont any more than British and Irish tourists do when holidaying in Spain. The root cause of the problem is mass migration. It is a numbers game. Period.

Perhaps that is the hangup here in the word 'integrate'.

Maybe the ones pushing multiculturalism the most are using it as a stick to beat people with "If only you were all nicer; things would be going a lot better but for all you racists" etc.. etc..

That's not what I mean though and I believe others.

To integrate you need a willingness on the party entering the country.

Grab All Association

Integration is the key here. There’s Africans acting like total scumbags in Dublin City, Cork City etc yet here in Thurles an African boy cycles a mountain bike through the town with a Hurley and helmet on the handle bars. Will probably make the Tipperary team some day. The young African girls are mixed in well with Irish students and don’t stick with other black students. Fact is you never see two Africans together in Thurles.

There’s a black lady who works in AIB as a cleaner and she always smiles and says hello to everyone.

Maybe the problem is Dublin, Cork and Limerick? Because every black persons I’ve met here in Tipperary obeys the law and works very hard in their jobs.

Dyr

Sand wrote: »

There is a problem with the ideology that mass migration would be fine if they integrated. It ignores the reality that Africans, Asians and Amerindians cannot 'integrate' with a European culture anymore than Europeans were able to integrate with African, Asian and Amerindian cultures. Irish is a European ethnicity, not an African one, not an Asian one and not an Amerindian one.

The best definition of multicultural society Ive seen is the expectation that a host population should abandon their own culture while immigrant populations should cling to theirs.

ThunbergsAreGo

I think immigration has been great for Ireland.

Our position within the EU, and ability to attract high quality skilled workers from within has contributed largely to many large companies especially within IT setting up here.

Dyr

Grab All Association wrote: »

Integration is the key here. There’s Africans acting like total scumbags in Dublin City, Cork City etc yet here in Thurles an African boy cycles a mountain bike through the town with a Hurley and helmet on the handle bars. .

There is a tipping point for integration though, I've met recent immigrants in Dublin (mostly ones who work for the big tech companies), who have asked me where I'm from because they still havent figured out what Irish people sound like. They havent interacted with the local populace much.

The GAA are one of the few cultural institutions we have that immigrants can assimilate through and they do a good job of it.

ShatterAlan

KungPao wrote: »

It doesn’t work. And I’m sad to see the Ireland I grew up in lose it’s character.

If you come here, integrate.

I asked this in the Dijon thread but what do you mean by "integrate"?

chosen1

Grab All Association wrote: »

Integration is the key here. There’s Africans acting like total scumbags in Dublin City, Cork City etc yet here in Thurles an African boy cycles a mountain bike through the town with a Hurley and helmet on the handle bars. Will probably make the Tipperary team some day. The young African girls are mixed in well with Irish students and don’t stick with other black students. Fact is you never see two Africans together in Thurles.

There’s a black lady who works in AIB as a cleaner and she always smiles and says hello to everyone.

Maybe the problem is Dublin, Cork and Limerick? Because every black persons I’ve met here in Tipperary obeys the law and works very hard in their jobs.

I don't personally know anything about the numbers of African immigrants in Thurles but I would guess from the way you describe it, they would be small. This is ideal for integration and it is great to see them adapt to Irish lifestyle while maybe maintaining some aspects of their own cultures. This is similar to Irish Americans in most places, where an outsider would consider them American while they maintain elements of Irish culture.

The problem arises when you put large numbers of any immigrants into certain areas and they outnumber Irish people. In pockets of Blanch, Balbriggan, Tallaght etc. there is little to no integration. They aren't even following the culture of their parents who are sometimes lovely people. Instead in a social media age, they are mimicking Afro-Caribbean culture from the streets of London. You only have to listen to the accent they put on and their slang to get this. There are even white gobsh*ites hanging around with them who sound like this. It sounds harmless enough until you realise they form these postcode gangs and they go around causing mayhem when they decide to travel around in very large groups. The government needs to set an example for these before it escalates into regular muggings and stabbings etc.

Overall I have no major problem with immigration in general but the powers that be need to learn from the mistakes of other countries where ghettos are a regular feature. I do feel though that it is too late for some of these areas mentioned.

ShatterAlan

suicide_circus wrote: »

there is an inescapable link between those in favour of mass immigration and those who generally do not have to compete with those immigrants for jobs.

What's "mass" immigration as opposed to just immigration and who supports it?

biko

ShatterAlan wrote: »

I asked this in the Dijon thread but what do you mean by "integrate"?

Usually integrate means assimilate.

The opposite of multiculturalism is assimilation with the goal of monoculturalism, or the notion that if you come to Ireland you are expected
to adopt Irish customs and kinda abandon your own.

For instance. If you go live in a country where the drinking of alcohol is prohibited you are expected to not drink alcohol.

Eric Cartman

suicide_circus wrote: »

there is an inescapable link between those in favour of mass immigration and those who generally do not have to compete with those immigrants for jobs.

the same with those who championed the ballaghaderreen migrant centre, who champion mass social housing developments, who champion the super mosque being built in blanchardstown or halting sites. Its academics, students or people working for the likes of NGOs who live in settled areas with tiny crime rates and no space to ever possibly impose these things on their community.

Its usually absolute classism, championing working class areas being burdened by these things and calling everyone in the area who objects 'dumb racists' . 'We know better than you , you'll be better for this diversity' they shriek from their Georgian 3 storey over basement in ranelagh.

olestoepoke

biko wrote: »

Usually integrate means assimilate.

The opposite of multiculturalism is assimilation with the goal of monoculturalism, or the notion that if you come to Ireland you are expected
to adopt Irish customs and kinda abandon your own.

For instance. If you go live in a country where the drinking of alcohol is prohibited you are expected to not drink alcohol.

Another example would be if you move to a country where mutilating the genitals of a baby is illegal you'd be expected not to do that.

Yurt2

ShatterAlan wrote: »

What's "mass" immigration as opposed to just immigration and who supports it?

An mode of immigration where the powers the state that are charged with enforcing the law that shrugs its shoulders at significant amounts of overstayers and rejected asylum seekers. And has mindless cheerleaders encouraging it, who will ignore the detrimental effects of such immigration and grossly exaggerate the benefits to the host society.

I'd say we're approaching mass immigration in Ireland. The UK certainly experienced it from the 90s onwards, countries like Sweden and France also.

All peachy there am I right?

RobbieTheRobber

olestoepoke wrote: »

Another example would be if you move to a country where mutilating the genitals of a baby is illegal you'd be expected not to do that.

Its great to hear another voice calling for a ban on male circumcision in Ireland!

biko

Hungarian Prime Minister Viktor Orbán

I also see that law enforcement and police are on the streets and yet there is a wave of violence.
Statues are being toppled, the conditions are deplorable, and there are gang wars on the beautiful streets of small towns in civilized Western European countries,"

"I look at the countries of those who are advising us how to conduct our lives properly and on good governance, proper operation of democracy,
and I don't know whether to laugh or cry."

https://rmx.news/article/article/hungary-s-pm-orban-says-western-europe-pursues-liberal-imperialism

double jobbing

biko wrote: »

Hungarian Prime Minister Viktor Orbán

"I also see that law enforcement and police are on the streets and yet there is a wave of violence.
Statues are being toppled, the conditions are deplorable, and there are gang wars on the beautiful streets of small towns in civilized Western European countries,"

"I look at the countries of those who are advising us how to conduct our lives properly and on good governance, proper operation of democracy,
and I don't know whether to laugh or cry.""


https://rmx.news/article/article/hungary-s-pm-orban-says-western-europe-pursues-liberal-imperialism

This here is leadership.

Off the top of my head, in the last few days/ weeks

- RBB and Mick Barry have called for no deportations in seemingly any circumstance, and the allocation of houses/ flats to newly arrived asylum seekers in the middle of a national housing crisis

- FG have mooted minority quotas for some state positions

- politicians who rightly criticised Gemma O'Doherty's goons holding their days out at the Four Courts openly encouraged wasters days out to the American Embassy to protest police violence in a faraway place. Only sheer luck prevented this having an effect on the virus spreading- had the George Floyd incident happened in the middle of April the event would still have went ahead and the infections would have set us back weeks

- a demand of a junior coalition partner is the abolition of a direct provision system that already treats residents preferentially to Irish citizens (how many returning Irish emigrants are given free accommodation while they get back on their feet, free food, a medical card etc)

- Eoin O'Broin shared a link to this absolute scutter

https://inar.ie/10-things-you-can-do-about-racism-in-ireland/

Start your anti-racism work from the perspective of recognising your own circumstances and privilege, this is key to understanding any role you could inadvertently play in reinforcing systemic racism. It may be an unpleasant and uncomfortable exercise to many. White privilege may be hard to see for those of us born with access to power and resources. On the other hand, it is very visible for those to whom privilege was not granted. This words by Harry Brod can help you understand it better:

“We need to be clear that there is no such thing as giving up one’s privilege to be ‘outside’ the system. One is always in the system. The only question is whether one is part of the system in a way that challenges or strengthens the status quo. Privilege is not something I take and which therefore have the option of not taking. It is something that society gives me, and unless I change the institutions which give it to me, they will continue to give it, and I will continue to have it, however noble and equalitarian my intentions.”

Five years ago you'd laugh when you read about all this type of thing happening in Sweden, that it showed their men as being weak. We're just as bad now.

Dyr

biko wrote: »

Hungarian Prime Minister Viktor Orbán


https://rmx.news/article/article/hungary-s-pm-orban-says-western-europe-pursues-liberal-imperialism

In fairness, most of the countries lecturing him arent being run by a kleptomaniac like the bould Victor

Snickers Man

KungPao wrote: »

If you come here, integrate.

You can't have integration without differentiation.

People who come here from abroad, speaking different languages, preferring different foods, listening to different music, playing different sports etc etc must be allowed to differentiate themselves without being REQUIRED to learn how to dance the Waves of Tory, make boxty and coddle, and attach themselves to their resident county's GAA team.

The strength of our cultural institutions, if allied with a generous and welcoming spirit, will see their adoption by enough newcomers to thrive as long as it is not forced.

Can't have one without the other.
Ask Isaac Newton

(Sorry, that's a bit too much like student humour and I'm really too old for that sort of ****e )

WrenBoy

Snickers Man wrote: »

You can't have integration without differentiation.

People who come here from abroad, speaking different languages, preferring different foods, listening to different music, playing different sports etc etc must be allowed to differentiate themselves without being REQUIRED to learn how to dance the Waves of Tory, make boxty and coddle, and attach themselves to their resident county's GAA team.

The strength of our cultural institutions, if allied with a generous and welcoming spirit, will see their adoption by enough newcomers to thrive as long as it is not forced.

Can't have one without the other.
Ask Isaac Newton

(Sorry, that's a bit too much like student humour and I'm really too old for that sort of ****e )

I feel that those examples, Waves of Tory, making boxty etc are hyper specific and aren't what people are concerned about, speaking for myself Im more concerned about their views on the treatment/acceptance of Women and Homosexuals as well as private property and freedom of speech/expression as it is in Western Europe.

And before ye say we have people here that don't have respect for women or acceptance of homosexuals I would posit thats a minority that exist within a culture that is for the most part very accepting of these groups.

ShatterAlan

Eric Cartman wrote: »

Allowing our EU friends in has proved to be a positive for Ireland, high employment rates, compatible culture, a lot of integration and very friendly people who put roots down and contribute to the community.

Some non EU migrants such as tech workers from the states and Asia work pretty well, although integration into our customs is pretty low among among the asian community but there are no real negatives associated with such.

migration from South America, Africa, the Middle East and some west asian nations (Pakistan etc..) has proven disastrous. High Unemployment, High welfare dependance, low education, high levels of criminality, almost no integration, remunerating a lot of money to their home countries and not spending in the local economy, complete cultural incompatibility and a lack of co-operation with gardai. We were promised their doctors and engineers, we got their equivalent to 'Anto from the flats'

It's their money. They can do whatever they want with it. I thought we were supposed to live in a "global" economy. What's the difference between some guy from Cameroon setting aside some money each month and sending is to his home country and an Irish person setting aside some money each month and then taking it all on a 2 week blowout in Las Vegas? Or people saving up all year and then going Christmas shopping in New York? Or buying a holiday home in Malaga? It's money leaving the country. It's THEIR money. What's your problem with it?


And what's this "almost no integration" of which you speak? Could you be a bit more specific? Every single immigrant I know works, speaks English and their kids go to Irish schools. What more integration are you clamouring for? Walk around town on any given weekday and you'll see black and Asian kids in Irish school uniforms on their way home from school, weighed down by satchels of schoolbooks.....schoolbooks on IRISH history, IRISH Geography, IRISH poetry.....the FCUKING IRISH language. I'd say a lot of them have a better grasp of Irish than you do.

ShatterAlan

ShatterAlan wrote: »

It's their money. They can do whatever they want with it. I thought we were supposed to live in a "global" economy. What's the difference between some guy from Cameroon setting aside some money each month and sending is to his home country and an Irish person setting aside some money each month and then taking it all on a 2 week blowout in Las Vegas? Or people saving up all year and then going Christmas shopping in New York? Or buying a holiday home in Malaga? It's money leaving the country. It's THEIR money. What's your problem with it?


And what's this "almost no integration" of which you speak? Could you be a bit more specific? Every single immigrant I know works, speaks English and their kids go to Irish schools. What more integration are you clamouring for? Walk around town on any given weekday and you'll see black and Asian kids in Irish school uniforms on their way home from school, weighed down by satchels of schoolbooks.....schoolbooks on IRISH history, IRISH Geography, IRISH poetry.....the FCUKING IRISH language. I'd say a lot of them have a better grasp of Irish than you do.

You still dont get it do you,what proper integration means?

Odhinn

Deleted User wrote: »

You still dont get it do you,what proper integration means?

Please do tell us then.

Eric Cartman

ShatterAlan wrote: »

It's their money. They can do whatever they want with it. I thought we were supposed to live in a "global" economy. What's the difference between some guy from Cameroon setting aside some money each month and sending is to his home country and an Irish person setting aside some money each month and then taking it all on a 2 week blowout in Las Vegas? Or people saving up all year and then going Christmas shopping in New York? Or buying a holiday home in Malaga? It's money leaving the country. It's THEIR money. What's your problem with it?


And what's this "almost no integration" of which you speak? Could you be a bit more specific? Every single immigrant I know works, speaks English and their kids go to Irish schools. What more integration are you clamouring for? Walk around town on any given weekday and you'll see black and Asian kids in Irish school uniforms on their way home from school, weighed down by satchels of schoolbooks.....schoolbooks on IRISH history, IRISH Geography, IRISH poetry.....the FCUKING IRISH language. I'd say a lot of them have a better grasp of Irish than you do.

Its our tax money, renumerating welfare oayments is immoral and should be illegal, and that goes for anyone doing it.

Odhinn

Odhinn wrote: »

Please do tell us then.

I allready did in another thread covering the same subject