What are your views on Multiculturalism in Ireland? - Threadbanned User List in OP

Wibbs

Wibbs wrote: »

Desperately fleeing conflict OK, "desperately fleeing" economies? G'way to feck. If they're at the bottom of the heap in their own countries they're hardly likely to be moving up in ours and the proportion on social welfare bears this out. Though that's apparently down to racism. Never mind that when our economy dips as economies do, then we've an even bigger issue added on top of the native population. Though when our economy dips the chancers tend not to bother nearly so much. How many were "desperately fleeing" on economic grounds in 1980's Ireland? Funny that.

The sad part is that western nations have been providing developmental aid to Africa for decades, in many cases, since the independence of their countries. All that's done is to encourage corruption, power plays, and purges. And yet, we must assume that every migrant that wants to come to Ireland or Europe is innocent of that behavior, and doesn't have any of the cultural indoctrination/conditioning that encourages such behavior. In fact, if you compare the aid sent to Asia vs what has been sent to Africa, lack of developmental aid is more likely to have the population turn to fixing their own problems.

Added to this is the idea that by accepting migrants into Europe, we are draining poorer nations of the population that would be needed to reform their societies. Rather than encourage the desire for people to fix their own nations, they're being allowed to believe that they can find something better elsewhere. They just have to show up to get it.

It worked for Australia. Closer to home when the Irish people overwhelmingly voted to close the birthright clause funny how the numbers of those looking for pregnancy passports standing on Rosslare pier with their waters breaking fell right off a cliff. We're an island on the edge of Atlantic Europe so should have more control of our borders on a practical level if nothing else.

It's going to have to work for Europe too, at some stage. This is what the pro-immigration crowd refuse to acknowledge. Populations in poorer and unstable regions are rising and will continue to put strain on their existing systems, which means that the numbers coming to Europe will continue to rise. Allowing in the numbers now, is not going to do anything to reduce the numbers later... if anything, it'll just increase the belief that Europe is the place to travel to.

TheCitizen

Beechwoodspark wrote: »

An EU wide asylum processing centre located in North Africa (or on border with Turkey) for example would be much better than the “ah sure twill be grand” approach that you seem to have

Deleted User wrote: »

Nope. I'm done with trying to have any kind of rational/logical discussion with you. I have posted up long passages with specifics about my views, and I've received deflections, and dismissals from you. No actual debate happening. Almost all of your posts consist of a vague statement, followed by insinuations about the posters in this thread.

Nah. Waste of time trying to have any kind of reasonable discussion with you. I'll leave it to others to deal with your vague nonsense, and snide remarks.

:pac: Amazing what passes for debate on here. Totally misrepresenting others opinions, strawmanning par for the course. The online equivalent of the Yellow Vest Brigade. Waste of time is right.

TheCitizen

Wibbs wrote: »

Desperately fleeing conflict OK, "desperately fleeing" economies? G'way to feck. If they're at the bottom of the heap in their own countries they're hardly likely to be moving up in ours and the proportion on social welfare bears this out. Though that's apparently down to racism. Never mind that when our economy dips as economies do, then we've an even bigger issue added on top of the native population. Though when our economy dips the chancers tend not to bother nearly so much. How many were "desperately fleeing" on economic grounds in 1980's Ireland? Funny that.

Some of these people pay criminals to ship them over in the back of a truck or try to sail across the Mediterranean in a rubber dingy. And you don't think that's desperate?, and you're comparing that with Irish people emigrating in the 80's? We need better solutions for the migration crisis but seeking better solutions doesn't not mean dispensing with reality entirely, and then of course your ridiculous post gets support from others. This place has turned into a totally unrepresentative echo chamber.

Ridiculous, reality denial lunacy.

_Kaiser_

TheCitizen wrote: »

:pac: Amazing what passes for debate on here. Totally misrepresenting others opinions, strawmanning par for the course. The online equivalent of the Yellow Vest Brigade. Waste of time is right.

TheCitizen wrote: »

Some of these people pay criminals to ship them over in the back of a truck or try to sail across the Mediterranean in a rubber dingy. And you don't think that's desperate?, and you're comparing that with Irish people emigrating in the 80's? We need better solutions for the migration crisis but seeking better solutions doesn't not mean dispensing with reality entirely, and then of course your ridiculous post gets support from others. This place has turned into a totally unrepresentative echo chamber.

Ridiculous, reality denial lunacy.

You seem to have no solutions or anything to offer beyond childish insults and jibes. Just like the migrants, no-one is forcing you to come/be here if you don't like the conditions when you get here.

I, and others, have offered suggestions and ideas as to how the situation can be better managed. I've yet to see anything from people like yourself about how you propose to deal with the situation.

Ireland in particular has more than enough domestic challenges as it is that we can't deal with, with external factors like Brexit unlikely to improve the situation, let alone the ongoing CV-19 concerns and the recession it has pushed us back into.

I fail to see how allowing thousands upon thousands of unskilled, unverifiable economic migrants with nothing to offer into the country is going to benefit Ireland - because make no mistake, immigration should certainly benefit the host nation and its people, not just the new arrivals.

But, I'm willing to have my mind changed. Can you list those benefits? Can you outline how you would vet and control the numbers entering? (because I think we can all agree that unlimited access is a non-starter). Can you describe what we should do with unverifiable migrants who arrive in a container rather than at the border?

Can you do any of those things - or is it just "morality" grandstanding you're interested in?

weldoninhio

TheCitizen wrote: »

Yep. These people that have suffered terribly in this fire and your man you quoted labels them criminals. Disgusting.

I’m sure they all lovely, upstanding citizens and they only stopped the Greek fire brigade from getting to the fires and putting them out, in case any of the brave Greeks got hurt. Such heroes these immigrants.

Hamachi

TheCitizen wrote: »

Some of these people pay criminals to ship them over in the back of a truck or try to sail across the Mediterranean in a rubber dingy. And you don't think that's desperate?...We need better solutions for the migration crisis but seeking better solutions doesn't not mean dispensing with reality entirely, and then of course your ridiculous post gets support from others. This place has turned into a totally unrepresentative echo chamber.

Ridiculous, reality denial lunacy.

Having passed through multiple safe countries before reaching the shores of North Africa or Turkey, before sailing across to Europe. Those arriving on lorries tend to arrive from known hellholes like France and Belgium.

Once again, the solution that will inevitably be implemented, is that asylum applications should be processed outside Europe. Those who fulfill the criteria, are transported safely and distributed around the continent in an equitable manner. Those deemed ineligible, are repatriated.

Economic migration is predicated entirely on skills. If migrants possess the skill set to address labor shortages in developed economies, they should be welcomed and provided with a transparent path to citizenship. If potential migrants do not meet this bar, moving to Europe and the wider developed world is off the table.

There’s nothing particularly controversial or unrepresentative in this plan. It’s pretty much on par with Australia’s approach to inward migration.

Honestly, your last couple of statements make you sound unhinged.

TomTomTim

TheCitizen wrote: »

:pac: Amazing what passes for debate on here. Totally misrepresenting others opinions, strawmanning par for the course. The online equivalent of the Yellow Vest Brigade. Waste of time is right.

The reality is, as tedious as you are, people here have been far more respectful to you than vice versa. How many names have you been called? How many people have you called names? It's quiet audacious for you to even pretend to be here in good faith.

TheCitizen

TheCitizen wrote: »

Some of these people pay criminals to ship them over in the back of a truck or try to sail across the Mediterranean in a rubber dingy. And you don't think that's desperate?, and you're comparing that with Irish people emigrating in the 80's? We need better solutions for the migration crisis but seeking better solutions doesn't not mean dispensing with reality entirely, and then of course your ridiculous post gets support from others. This place has turned into a totally unrepresentative echo chamber.

Ridiculous, reality denial lunacy.

The consistent snide, dismissive remarks indicate to me that you're overly emotional about all of this, and therefore not really thinking from a practical, logical perspective. Whilst I, and I think, most others here, are all for accepting/helping genuine refugees, we also recognise there's a limit. The current influx of economic migrants is NOT sustainable and will impact Ireland negatively in the longer-term. This is the actual reality.

As for this being a "totally unrepresentative echo chamber", I would place a substantial bet that the majority of people in this country would vote for a more conservative approach moving forward; just as they did in 2004. You ironically dismissed the idea of a referendum earlier on such an issue. That's because deep down you know what the results would be.

I don't doubt your good intentions, and I don't believe you're just virtue signalling. Unfortunately though, your emotions are clouding your judgement, and it's clear that you, are in fact, the one who is in denial.

TheCitizen

Deleted User wrote: »

The consistent snide, dismissive remarks indicate to me that you're overly emotional about all of this, and therefore not really thinking from a practical, logical perspective. Whilst I, and I think, most others here, are all for accepting/helping genuine refugees, we also recognise there's a limit. The current influx of economic migrants is NOT sustainable and will impact Ireland negatively in the longer-term. This is the actual reality.

As for this being a "totally unrepresentative echo chamber", I would place a substantial bet that the majority of people in this country would vote for a more conservative approach moving forward; just as they did in 2004. You ironically dismissed the idea of a referendum earlier on such an issue. That's because deep down you know what the results would be.

I don't doubt your good intentions, and I don't believe you're just virtue signalling. Unfortunately though, your emotions are clouding your judgement, and it's clear that you, are in fact, the one who is in denial.

I'm going to ignore the above rank hypocrisy, not least because I'd be wasting all my time here arguing it:pac:.

I'm being accused of saying things I never said on here. Where did I say there should be no limit to immigration? What is the approach exactly to non EU immigration in this country, all I know is that the direct provision centres system is unsatisfactory. We don't in fact have an open border policy for non EU migrants here at all but you wouldn't think that given the commentary and rhetoric on here. Where is all this chat coming from that current levels of immigration are "unsustainable" where is the evidence for this exactly?

Evidently I'm right given the proliferation of guff above that this place us becoming an echo chamber, an hysterical echo chamber at that.

enricoh

So no solutions at all from the citizen and instead we are all participants in an hysterical echo chamber- quelle surprise!

Hamachi

TheCitizen wrote: »

I'm going to ignore the above rank hypocrisy, not least because I'd be wasting all my time here arguing it:pac:.

I'm being accused of saying things I never said on here. Where did I say there should be no limit to immigration? What is the approach exactly to non EU immigration in this country, all I know is that the direct provision centres system is unsatisfactory. We don't in fact have an open border policy for non EU migrants here at all but you wouldn't think that given the commentary and rhetoric on here. Where is all this chat coming from that current levels of immigration are "unsustainable" where is the evidence for this exactly?

Evidently I'm right given the proliferation of guff above that this place us becoming an echo chamber, an hysterical echo chamber at that.

One last time. Can you please drop the aggression and petulance? It’s reminiscent of my toddler daughter stamping her feet when the adults in the room fail to bend to her will. She has the excuse of extreme youth..

The approach to non-EU migration is scattergun in Ireland. There is a work permit system for non-EU migrants. In theory, employers are obligated to try source labor domestically or across the wider EU, before applying for a work permit. This approach works reasonably well to address skill shortages in tech and healthcare. There are also on-going efforts to upskill more Irish people in tech, which will likely reduce our future dependence on non-EU migrants in this sector.

On the other hand, there are many thousands of language students here, the vast majority of whom come from Latin America, primarily Brazil. They arrive on temporary student visas and are permitted to work for 20 hours a week to support their studies. It’s widely known that the conditions of their visas are blatantly abused and many overstay by multiple years, often falling into low skilled, precarious employment e.g. bicycle couriers delivering food. This non-EU migration stream needs to be examined closely and properly regulated.

Asylum seekers and their accommodation in direct provision centers is an entirely distinct non-EU migration stream. The statistics tell us that the vast majority of asylum applicants to Ireland do not have a legitimate right to be here and ought to be repatriated. In fact, a negligible % are ever removed. Direct provision is a model used across Europe to house asylum seekers. There’s no Irish exceptionalism here. In fact, when I lived in Germany, many applicants there were accommodated in shipping containers, due to a lack of other options. What’s your proposed alternative solution? Own door accommodation for all asylum seekers, regardless of their rights to be in Ireland? Let’s put that option to the electorate to temperature check their response...

The demographic change in Ireland throughout the last two decades has been astounding. We’ve gone from ~98% indigenous to having a ca. 17% foreign born population within 20 years. This pace of change is unprecedented in Western Europe and simply isn’t sustainable in a country facing significant domestic pressures e.g. enormous national debt, brexit, Covid-induced recession. The time has come to consolidate and try to properly integrate those have arrived in recent years. Build a decent, cohesive society, rather than one riven by division with little social capital.

Finally, if your response to my post is abusive, I won’t be engaging with you again.

TheCitizen

Hamachi wrote: »

One last time. Can you please drop the aggression and petulance? It’s reminiscent of my toddler daughter stamping her feet when the adults in the room fail to bend to her will. She has the excuse of extreme youth..

What aggression and petulance? You accusing me of acting like a toddler that kind of petulance is it? Aren't you very easily offended.

Hamachi wrote: »

The approach to non-EU migration is scattergun in Ireland. There is a work permit system for non-EU migrants. In theory, employers are obligated to try source labor domestically or across the wider EU, before applying for a work permit. This approach works reasonably well to address skill shortages in tech and healthcare. There are also on-going efforts to upskill more Irish people in tech, which will likely reduce our future dependence on non-EU migrants in this sector.

On the other hand, there are many thousands of language students here, the vast majority of whom come from Latin America, primarily Brazil. They arrive on temporary student visas and are permitted to work for 20 hours a week to support their studies. It’s widely known that the conditions of their visas are blatantly abused and many overstay by multiple years, often falling into low skilled, precarious employment e.g. bicycle couriers delivering food. This non-EU migration stream needs to be examined closely and properly regulated.

This is reminiscent of illegal Irish in the US in the 80's and 90's and still happens today but less so I'm guessing. We may have things to learn from the US and Australia on this as this is a newish phenomenon for us, you'll still get illegal people here working here in the black market because it's better than where they came from. These issues aren't going to go away, all you can do is manage them.

Hamachi wrote: »

Asylum seekers and their accommodation in direct provision centers is an entirely distinct non-EU migration stream. The statistics tell us that the vast majority of asylum applicants to Ireland do not have a legitimate right to be here and ought to be repatriated. In fact, a negligible % are ever removed. Direct provision is a model used across Europe to house asylum seekers. There’s no Irish exceptionalism here. In fact, when I lived in Germany, many applicants there were accommodated in shipping containers, due to a lack of other options. What’s your proposed alternative solution? Own door accommodation for all asylum seekers, regardless of their rights to be in Ireland? Let’s put that option to the electorate to temperature check their response...

That's not my option, never said it was. A VISA system like they had in the US or Aus, where certain criteria needs to be met before hand. You'll still get people slipping through the net, and then genuine asylum seekers. A humanitarian approach towards families of children would be required.

Hamachi wrote: »

The demographic change in Ireland throughout the last two decades has been astounding. We’ve gone from ~98% indigenous to having a ca. 17% foreign born population within 20 years. This pace of change is unprecedented in Western Europe and simply isn’t sustainable in a country facing significant domestic pressures e.g. enormous national debt, brexit, Covid-induced recession. The time has come to consolidate and try to properly integrate those have arrived in recent years. Build a decent, cohesive society, rather than one riven by division with little social capital.

Our society isn't riven by division. a handful of cranks in the yellow vest brigade that talk a lot of shíte is not evidence of a society riven by division. This is more hyperbole that's becoming par for the course on this thread.

Hamachi wrote: »

Finally, if your response to my post is abusive, I won’t be engaging with you again.

Amazing, you come out with a load of condescending claptrap and then accuse me of being abusive.

In case you didn't notice I was ignoring you first above, I wasn't responding to you, I was responding to another poster yet you couldn't stop yourself jumping in with both feet. Pathetic.

Stick me on ignore there before I do and get your pals to join you. The echo chamber will be complete on here then.:pac:

TheCitizen

enricoh wrote: »

So no solutions at all from the citizen and instead we are all participants in an hysterical echo chamber- quelle surprise!

I have offered lots of solutions on here as a matter of fact, but the posters who don't like them ignore them and pretend I haven't offered solutions because I don't pander to their Right wing sensibilities.

This place is becoming hysterical, hysterically right wing. Since when was Ireland "riven with division" exactly? Yes there's problems in certain communities, are these problems over and above or any worse than problems that have always been in certain communities. I think not. The usual thing of blaming the "other" for society's ills.

When Dublin had a heroin epidemic in the 80's there was less immigrants to blame, yet there was still serious problems in certain communities. A lot of hyperbole and hysteria on here.

I love how when told not to make associations with Stormfront, you switch to the "yellow vest brigade".

Both of which aren't, in the least bit, representative of the opinions here... :rolleyes:

TheCitizen

Deleted User wrote: »

I love how when told not to make associations with Stormfront, you switch to the "yellow vest brigade".

Both of which aren't, in the least bit, representative of the opinions here... :rolleyes:

The hyperbole such as "our society is riven with division" etc. fits right in with the crank yellow vest brigade. Less of the hyperbole and hysteria and perhaps the comparisons will become less obvious.

TheCitizen

weldoninhio wrote: »

I’m sure they all lovely, upstanding citizens and they only stopped the Greek fire brigade from getting to the fires and putting them out, in case any of the brave Greeks got hurt. Such heroes these immigrants.

So you're going to tar them all with the one brush, is that it? Everyone in the camp was responsible for setting the fires and then trying to stop the firefighters?

TheCitizen

TheCitizen wrote: »

The hyperbole such as "our society is riven with division" etc. fits right in with the crank yellow vest brigade. Less of the hyperbole and hysteria and perhaps the comparisons will become less obvious.

Care to find any of my posts which says "our society is riven with division"? Or that of Wibbs? or... nope.

You take a single poster or maybe two posters, making them to be representative of the whole thread, as a way to justify your ignorance, and pushing of opinions, differing than yours, into the "right wing". You do realise that this thread is open to everyone, and we're not part of some kind of team or secret society... anyone can come in and post whatever they wish.

The comparisons won't stop because they come from posters like yourself, who are too lazy to formulate specific arguments against what has been said. What have you successfully argued or debated against? Where have you engaged with other peoples opinions, giving them the benefit of the doubt and provided supporting information to back up your claims? The closest that you've done that was with regards to the suggestion about a referendum, and still you misrepresented what had been said.

haha. The funny thing is that you have more in common with Stormfront, than we do. The intolerance of others opinions and the unwillingness to engage in a logical discussion. The need to push people into boxes, and assign labels to them.

And where is all this hysteria that's supposedly happening since you joined the thread?

TheCitizen

Deleted User wrote: »

Care to find any of my posts which says "our society is riven with division"? Or that of Wibbs? or... nope.

Wibbs ironically as it happens was engaging in hysterical denial, trying to claim that people trying to traverse the Med in a rubber dingy or paying criminals to transport them in the back of a truck wasn't an act of desperation. Wibble Wibble. I'm sure I'll find some hysteria from you as well if i have time to look.

Deleted User wrote: »

You take a single poster or maybe two posters, making them to be representative of the whole thread, as a way to justify your ignorance, and pushing of opinions, differing than yours, into the "right wing". You do realise that this thread is open to everyone, and we're not part of some kind of team or secret society... anyone can come in and post whatever they wish.

The comparisons won't stop because they come from posters like yourself, who are too lazy to formulate specific arguments against what has been said. What have you successfully argued or debated against? Where have you engaged with other peoples opinions, giving them the benefit of the doubt and provided supporting information to back up your claims? The closest that you've done that was with regards to the suggestion about a referendum, and still you misrepresented what had been said.

haha. The funny thing is that you have more in common with Stormfront, than we do. The intolerance of others opinions and the unwillingness to engage in a logical discussion. The need to push people into boxes, and assign labels to them.

You're accusing me exactly of what you are guilty of. Intolerance of others opinions, amazing lack of self awareness.

Deleted User wrote: »

And where is all this hysteria that's supposedly happening since you joined the thread?

The hysteria is all over the thread. "Our society is riven with division"...."we can't sustain the numbers that are flooding in" etc etc.. But that's your currency, hysteria, driving division in society and then point at it and say; "Look, I told you what would happen".

Beechwoodspark

So, “the citizen”, any solutions to propose as yet?

A few posters including Myself proposed a processing centre in North Africa or possibly on borders with turkey.

What do you propose other than “ah sure twill be grand”?

Hamachi

Can somebody please explain to me what the Yellow Vest movement stands for in an Irish context?

It’s always nice to know the organizational principles of a group, of which one is apparently a card-carrying member.

TheCitizen

Beechwoodspark wrote: »

So, “the citizen”, any solutions to propose as yet?

A few posters including Myself proposed a processing centre in North Africa or possibly on borders with turkey.

What do you propose other than “ah sure twill be grand”?

I already dealt with your glib comment in 2583, now you're here repeating it, pathetic stuff. I have offered solutions as well btw, but you probably didn't bother reading them either.

briany

Beechwoodspark wrote: »

So, the citizen, any solutions to propose as yet?

A few posters including Myself proposed a processing centre in North Africa or possibly on borders with turkey.

A processing center in North Africa sounds like a reasonable idea, although there would be more that needs working out.

You process the claim of someone without papers and decide their claim of asylum is bogus or insufficient. Do you send them away? Where to? Leave them in the processing center? How do you house an ever-growing population?

Someone without papers hears that the processing center could be a dead-end for their hopes of getting to Europe. They manage to get directly to Europe, and that country sends them back to the processing center. See above paragraph.

If their claim of asylum is found to be genuine, where do you send them to? Logically, you would have to send them to different countries, as I'm guessing no one country would want to, or could, take them all. Do you have a scheme where every country has to take a certain amount? How would countries like this? Did they like it when Merkel was talking about European countries taking a certain proportion of Syrian refugees?

TheCitizen

I guess there's a wider consequence for major western democracies electing arseholes like Trump and Johnson as premiers. The far right loons become emboldened, moderate and reasoned opinion becomes marginalised especially online, even what was previously called the centre right or conservative opinion, ridiculed with terms like "cuckservative". The lunatics have taken over the asylum and hysteria reigns as certain agendas like this anti immigration stuff and buttons are pushed.

I promised myself I wouldn't get sucked in to this spiral of bullshít that passes for debate on here :pac:. Slán a chara, enjoy your echo chamber.

enricoh

Thanks for the memories citizen!

Beechwoodspark

TheCitizen wrote: »

I already dealt with your glib comment in 2583, now you're here repeating it, pathetic stuff. I have offered solutions as well btw, but you probably didn't bother reading them either.

You didn’t provide any proposals as far as I can see??

Edit: you’ve bowed out of the forum. Slàn Leat.

TheCitizen

TheCitizen wrote: »

I promised myself I wouldn't get sucked in to this spiral of bullshít that passes for debate on here :pac:. Slán a chara, enjoy your echo chamber.

Not to worry, you haven't managed to actually commit to answering, or countering anything that I've said about multiculturalism or immigration. The only times you've addressed anything I've said is when it related to my observations about your posting style, and behavior towards other posters on the thread.

You are, simply put, full of crap. The spiral of Bull**** is very much of your own making. And yes, I'm quite happy you're shoving off again, although, no doubt you'll return soon to call us all hypocrites, racists, etc. and still refuse to actually debate anything of substance.

Wibbs

Deleted User wrote: »

no doubt you'll return soon to call us all hypocrites, racists, etc. and still refuse to actually debate anything of substance.

Because he has nothing of substance to say on the subject. And this did surprise me when this and similar threads have come up. The "progressive" posters and those who've bought into the propaganda on the matter have little beyond "diversity is its own reward", though usually the only rewards they posit are ethnic restaurants and food. Add in a side order of well the Irish were welcomed through out the world(they weren't, and in very different times) and a genuine and understandable appeal to charity. When all that falls on its arse as positives they pretty soon after let loose with "racists!! Alt Right!!! Stormfronters!!! That's how piss poor their side of the debate is. And they know it. Some I suspect have never actually been questioned too deeply on their third hand position and certainly didn't probe too deeply into it themselves.

TheCitizen wrote: »

I guess there's a wider consequence for major western democracies electing arseholes like Trump and Johnson as premiers.

Ever wonder why idiots like the above are getting votes and quite substantial votes too? Because they were (stupidly) seen as an alternative to the different day, same bullsh1t of existing politics. Ireland hasn't seen it yet and I doubt it will as we tend not to go to extremes and we don't have the divisions of wealth and ethnicity seen elsewhere. Though the latter will happen here. It has happened in every single state that runs this diversity(of the Correct Kind) nonsense. Even so the vote to close the pregnancy passport loophole was a clear majority, so I doubt those kind of questions will again be put to the population any time soon.

I promised myself I wouldn't get sucked in to this spiral of bullshít that passes for debate on here :pac:. Slán a chara, enjoy your echo chamber.

No amount of smilies and constant references to "right wing echo chambers" can hide the obvious paucity of your position.

Rodney Bathgate

Good riddance.

Hamachi

Wibbs wrote: »

No amount of smilies and constant references to "right wing echo chambers" can hide the obvious paucity of your position.

I believe that’s called Game, Set, and Match.

TheCitizen

enricoh wrote: »

Thanks for the memories citizen!

It's been emotional:pac: