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Tough Spot

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  • 17-06-2020 9:36pm
    #1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6


    I just wondered if anyone had any advice for me on a difficult situation. Around 2 weeks ago the owner of our company has suddenly made it clear he is pushing me out, despite being with the company for just under 2 years, with no major problems.
    To start at the beginning, I was awaiting next instructions on an assignment from him and was told to work on another piece of work when I waited. The following week completely out the blue he emailed saying I had done nothing on the assignment (I was waiting) to which I was very surprised and defended myself. As its lockdown email is the go to. He then proceeded to call me up and just let rip, saying how I was the worst professional they had worked with, they have had doubts about me for a while and others in the company agreed (which didn’t seem as first I had heard). I didn’t know what to say apart from that I was doing my best despite the overwhelming workload. I asked that it sounded like they didn’t want me in the job any more. I didn’t get much of a response to this which left me distraught.
    I was shell shocked as it was completely out of the blue. I decided to take a time off in which to assess and look at the job market. Currently during the lock down there is not much out there but at least I have the knowledge of this and have an up to date CV.
    When I returned to work what I would class bullying has intensified significantly. The admission from me about my workload seems to have been used against me by overloading me even more. I have suffered aggressive emails scrutinising every detail of my work and told I can’t even do basics. It has been relentless.
    I am at my wits end and had to stop a panic attack earlier as it has been nearly a fortnight now of just intense bombardment, pulling other colleagues into it and spreading this notion that I am incompetent to others like poison.
    We have no HR person to go to so he answers to no-one.
    I am contemplating due to the severe stress and anxiety what I should do. I am not sleeping at all which then means I am not at my best and making mistakes I normally wouldn’t, which of course are then picked up on and so the vicious circle continues.
    All I can think is they have need to cut some staff and I am on that list.
    Lockdown is stressful on its own without this. I don’t think I can stand much more but the job market is dead so I am in tough spot.
    Any help welcome.
    Pete


«1

Comments

  • Registered Users Posts: 3,043 ✭✭✭Wabbit Ears


    Draw up a careful, considered plan and research whats required for a successful unfair dismissal case and then follow through with the plan. Perhaps ask advice on a lawyer who specialises in the area, it would be money well spent. You're getting fired/Let go/redundant regardless, may as well make the best of it.

    for now, document everything.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,106 ✭✭✭turbot


    Pete, keep a diary of of everything that happened.
    Print out key emails / messages so you have proof in case you need to rely upon them.
    Express in writing that you are feeling psychological stress from this situation, linked to the events you describe, and that you request support fro the company as you have done your best and acted in good faith.
    Stay calm, reasonable and professional.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 157 ✭✭Liamo57


    Thats how bulkying operates in the workplace. Its exa tly what happened to me 10 years ago. Its horrible. No sleep, anxiety etc. Do not destroy your kmhealth as a result. Go out on sick leave and fight your corner from there. You are the dmscapegoat for his business not going well. Life will get better, but make the decision to go out on sick leave through stress and get legal advice. He will **** himself. Put him under stress because you are out the door regardless. Best of luck.


  • Registered Users Posts: 19,417 ✭✭✭✭road_high


    Sounds awful op, no job is worth that level of grief. The fact you mentioned it’s a family run type thing does not surprise me. That attitude so often goes with the territory.
    It’s a hiding to nowhere so I’d get all my ducks in a row, go out on sick leave (legally they cant sack yet you just like that) and engage the legal profession from there. Sounds like a very strong harassment/constructive dismissal case. Print off all those emails ASAP and document all calls


  • Registered Users Posts: 6,491 ✭✭✭con747


    A relation had a similar problem years ago and as previously said document everything and keep a diary of it all because you can take this to the labour relations court where my relation won his case and received compensation for loss of earnings and undue stress and bullying.

    Don't expect anything from life, just be grateful to be alive.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 139 ✭✭PerryB78


    Agree 100% with all posters here, get those emails and anything else you can and go on sick leave. Whatever you do dont let it get to you, consult a solicitor asap, preferably one who specializes in this particular field and let the pr*ck know you wont be rolled over, good luck


  • Registered Users Posts: 25,974 ✭✭✭✭Mrs OBumble


    You're there just under two years. He probably know that the current economic situation means he needs to make someone redundant, and if you go before 2 years, he doesn't have to pay you out.

    You can choose to do the document everything, take it legal route. But you don't have to. You can just focus on getting another job, and not waste your energy on his BS. It's your call which way you want to go. The legal route will likely get you awarded compensation - and he may end up paying you this. Or he may find a way to weasel out of it.


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,017 ✭✭✭bilbot79


    I just wondered if anyone had any advice for me on a difficult situation. Around 2 weeks ago the owner of our company has suddenly made it clear he is pushing me out, despite being with the company for just under 2 years, with no major problems.
    To start at the beginning, I was awaiting next instructions on an assignment from him and was told to work on another piece of work when I waited. The following week completely out the blue he emailed saying I had done nothing on the assignment (I was waiting) to which I was very surprised and defended myself. As its lockdown email is the go to. He then proceeded to call me up and just let rip, saying how I was the worst professional they had worked with, they have had doubts about me for a while and others in the company agreed (which didn’t seem as first I had heard). I didn’t know what to say apart from that I was doing my best despite the overwhelming workload. I asked that it sounded like they didn’t want me in the job any more. I didn’t get much of a response to this which left me distraught.
    I was shell shocked as it was completely out of the blue. I decided to take a time off in which to assess and look at the job market. Currently during the lock down there is not much out there but at least I have the knowledge of this and have an up to date CV.
    When I returned to work what I would class bullying has intensified significantly. The admission from me about my workload seems to have been used against me by overloading me even more. I have suffered aggressive emails scrutinising every detail of my work and told I can’t even do basics. It has been relentless.
    I am at my wits end and had to stop a panic attack earlier as it has been nearly a fortnight now of just intense bombardment, pulling other colleagues into it and spreading this notion that I am incompetent to others like poison.
    We have no HR person to go to so he answers to no-one.
    I am contemplating due to the severe stress and anxiety what I should do. I am not sleeping at all which then means I am not at my best and making mistakes I normally wouldn’t, which of course are then picked up on and so the vicious circle continues.
    All I can think is they have need to cut some staff and I am on that list.
    Lockdown is stressful on its own without this. I don’t think I can stand much more but the job market is dead so I am in tough spot.
    Any help welcome.
    Pete

    Is your name Pete?


  • Registered Users Posts: 7,870 ✭✭✭Grumpypants


    Go out on stress leave then start looking for a job that doesn't make you ill.

    Cutting staff is a simple enough thing to do. Bullying someone out isn't needed.

    I'd be a right pain. I'd clearly mark out your day/week and month. If he gives you more work ask him to send you a mail outlining what he needs and then give a realistic time frame for when it will be done. If he wants it faster just reply saying he will need the adequately resource the project.

    If he pulls apart work then just thank him for the feedback and mention the concerns you raised that he failed to address.

    I'd also ask him to clearly document any areas you need to improve so that you can focus on those areas. If you get put on a performance review you have to be given time you make improvements.

    Basically drag the arse out of it. You are leaving anyway what's the point in getting worked up about it. You may as well have some fun now you have the power.


  • Registered Users Posts: 25,466 ✭✭✭✭Strumms


    Can I ask that in your around 2 years with the company, have you ever had any formal performance reviews ? If so how roughly did you score ? Any disciplinary issues ?

    I know in my last job I too was overloaded with work, I’d had a long term personal conflict with a supervisor which management didn’t have the stones to try and diffuse and my health ended up in the shît.

    You need to escalate high up the management chain.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 19,417 ✭✭✭✭road_high


    You're there just under two years. He probably know that the current economic situation means he needs to make someone redundant, and if you go before 2 years, he doesn't have to pay you out.

    You can choose to do the document everything, take it legal route. But you don't have to. You can just focus on getting another job, and not waste your energy on his BS. It's your call which way you want to go. The legal route will likely get you awarded compensation - and he may end up paying you this. Or he may find a way to weasel out of it.

    That did enter my mind too- wanting to push someone out before they’re entitled to redundancy payment. It wouldn’t be uncommon


  • Registered Users Posts: 19,417 ✭✭✭✭road_high


    Strumms wrote: »
    Can I ask that in your around 2 years with the company, have you ever had any formal performance reviews ? If so how roughly did you score ? Any disciplinary issues ?

    I know in my last job I too was overloaded with work, I’d had a long term personal conflict with a supervisor which management didn’t have the stones to try and diffuse and my health ended up in the shît.

    You need to escalate high up the management chain.

    I think the problem here is the manager is the owner of the company. This is why I’d never work in a small family type business.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 6 coeurdalene24


    Thank you all for your feedback and time taken. I appreciate it. Its a small family run business so we don't have performance reviews or any of that corporate stuff! I will keep a diary and carefully plan my next move. Are there any repercussions of stress leave i need to be aware of??


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,551 ✭✭✭The White Feather


    I was in a quite similar position as you OP a few years ago. I was in a small company probably bigger than yours but my boss basically had full control of the office. The owner/manager was only there the odd time. My boss wanted me out as I wasn't one of his "guys" type of thing. Meaning I didn't kiss his rear!

    Like you, I was stressed out from being given out to and from being blamed. You feel like packing up and going. I was all about to go out on stress leave or quit when I decided not to be pushed out. Rather than being in constant worry about the job both at home and at the office, I started to kind of work to rule. Like others have said, I started saving every email and made sure to try to get everything in email so I could document things.

    Whatever my boss said to me I just smiled and said "sure,ok" That drove him more berserk so that made me happy. I would do what I could and once times up off I went home. They overloaded me too.

    As its lockdown or probably work from home, I think you should just do what you can in the time you are meant to work. Then shut it down and don't answer calls or emails until the next morning.He wants you out like my boss did so I was determined to get another job that suited me and not jump ship into nothing or a bad job. If you leave on your own, he probably doesn't have to pay you so don't give him the satisfaction.

    You can only control yourself so who cares what he says or does. Just have a clock in and clock out mentality. Do what you can in the work hours and keep track of every email in case he tries to dismiss you. Then focus on what your next job will be. Get your CV ready and send it out everywhere. Companies might not be hiring right now but you should be first on the list when they do and maybe they actually are. Don't just take any old job. Wait until it really suits you too by the way.

    I didn't go on stress leave although I thought about it. I said why am I stressed, let him stress about getting rid of me. So I just went in, did what I could and off home then.What made me think like that was a scene in the Office TV show. Its the finale where David Brent says "They are all laughing at me and its embarrassing" and the woman he just met says "What do you care? You are getting paid. Take the money and run" This made me just clock in and clock out doing my work. I went from almost throwing up at work with worry to just thinking whatever and not caring what he thought. My indifference started making him annoyed so I said good. Rather him than me. So just do what you can and forget about it. All the while documenting everything and looking for your next job.

    These small companies are very hard as its the whim of the owner. When he wakes up and wants someone off his wage list then you or me gets the brunt of it. Save or print out those emails as he may lock you out or do an update to the server where old emails are erased to make room.My place did that when my boss said at a meeting that he always had to email me instructions meaning I was an idiot and I said yes I have them all on my computer. After work the next day, they wiped my computer to make room for "storage and updates" I had them all printed out already though!


  • Registered Users Posts: 19,417 ✭✭✭✭road_high


    I was in a quite similar position as you OP a few years ago. I was in a small company probably bigger than yours but my boss basically had full control of the office. The owner/manager was only there the odd time. My boss wanted me out as I wasn't one of his "guys" type of thing. Meaning I didn't kiss his rear!

    Like you, I was stressed out from being given out to and from being blamed. You feel like packing up and going. I was all about to go out on stress leave or quit when I decided not to be pushed out. Rather than being in constant worry about the job both at home and at the office, I started to kind of work to rule. Like others have said, I started saving every email and made sure to try to get everything in email so I could document things.

    Whatever my boss said to me I just smiled and said "sure,ok" That drove him more berserk so that made me happy. I would do what I could and once times up off I went home. They overloaded me too.

    As its lockdown or probably work from home, I think you should just do what you can in the time you are meant to work. Then shut it down and don't answer calls or emails until the next morning.He wants you out like my boss did so I was determined to get another job that suited me and not jump ship into nothing or a bad job. If you leave on your own, he probably doesn't have to pay you so don't give him the satisfaction.

    You can only control yourself so who cares what he says or does. Just have a clock in and clock out mentality. Do what you can in the work hours and keep track of every email in case he tries to dismiss you. Then focus on what your next job will be. Get your CV ready and send it out everywhere. Companies might not be hiring right now but you should be first on the list when they do and maybe they actually are. Don't just take any old job. Wait until it really suits you too by the way.

    I didn't go on stress leave although I thought about it. I said why am I stressed, let him stress about getting rid of me. So I just went in, did what I could and off home then.What made me think like that was a scene in the Office TV show. Its the finale where David Brent says "They are all laughing at me and its embarrassing" and the woman he just met says "What do you care? You are getting paid. Take the money and run" This made me just clock in and clock out doing my work. I went from almost throwing up at work with worry to just thinking whatever and not caring what he thought. My indifference started making him annoyed so I said good. Rather him than me. So just do what you can and forget about it. All the while documenting everything and looking for your next job.

    These small companies are very hard as its the whim of the owner. When he wakes up and wants someone off his wage list then you or me gets the brunt of it. Save or print out those emails as he may lock you out or do an update to the server where old emails are erased to make room.My place did that when my boss said at a meeting that he always had to email me instructions meaning I was an idiot and I said yes I have them all on my computer. After work the next day, they wiped my computer to make room for "storage and updates" I had them all printed out already though!

    Did you take a case against them or sit it out?


  • Registered Users Posts: 19,417 ✭✭✭✭road_high


    Those type of small family run businesses I deal with in my job and can see how employees are treated like possessions who’s every move is micro managed and watched- hell I worked in too. But “the Bosses “ were forever snooping about.
    I remember one of them even reported us to our line manager for taking too long breaks (all professionals I might add). Fair enough I guess but gives an idea of the kind of attitude that’s there. Left soon after as it wasn’t for me.
    Worked with two multinationals since then and none of that mindless nit picking and people watching. Much more of an equalitarian place- you do your work and make an impact


  • Registered Users Posts: 19,417 ✭✭✭✭road_high


    Thank you all for your feedback and time taken. I appreciate it. Its a small family run business so we don't have performance reviews or any of that corporate stuff! I will keep a diary and carefully plan my next move. Are there any repercussions of stress leave i need to be aware of??

    You’re legally entitled to take it if certified by a doctor far as I know, don’t know the full legal ins and outs though. Perhaps a union can advise you?
    No doubt it’ll go down well with your living boss but may sharpen minds a little as he’s moves into shaky ground.
    Definitely start planning an exit re moving jobs, but on your terms of course


  • Registered Users Posts: 6,740 ✭✭✭Wanderer2010


    road_high wrote: »
    Those type of small family run businesses I deal with in my job and can see how employees are treated like possessions who’s every move is micro managed and watched- hell I worked in too. But “the Bosses “ were forever snooping about.
    I remember one of them even reported us to our line manager for taking too long breaks (all professionals I might add). Fair enough I guess but gives an idea of the kind of attitude that’s there. Left soon after as it wasn’t for me.
    Worked with two multinationals since then and none of that mindless nit picking and people watching. Much more of an equalitarian place- you do your work and make an impact

    Yeah id be very wary of family businesses. I know of a few where they are sweetness and light to their clients and absolute tyrants to the staff. The worst kind are the ones where the father/son or mother/daughter are running the show. You have no comeback on any issue or complaint as the family unit always sticks up for itself. Im sure some family businesses are ok but ive yet to hear of one.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 6 coeurdalene24


    Thank you everyone, I think I will try to stick it out for now keeping a diary and reserve the sick leave if it becomes completely intolerable. Hopefully when I am off next week he will appreciate what i do around the place but I won't hold my breath! It would be nice to return with a new found appreciation but as you all say the wheels are in motion now so why care? I am going to put all my energy into the job market and diary now!


  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 11,670 Mod ✭✭✭✭devnull


    When someone is trying to push you out they will try every trick under the sun to get rid of you and unsettle you and try and force you into resigning if they cannot get rid of you another way.

    My advice is to keep calm and do not let them provoke you into any actions or words which might give them some leverage. If you have to take time off for stress then do not hesitate to do so. If you can get a doctor to write a letter explaining this to your employer even better.

    In my experience when someone is suffering from anxiety, stress or other related conditions most employers tend to back off for the time you are signed off. Even the ones that are really desperate to manage you out. It also might buy you some time to get your head in order, look for other jobs and get out of the circle so to speak.

    I'd also urge you to try and keep as many communications as possible via email / writing and try and avoid person to person conversations on your own with him if at all possible because anything you say to him in such conversation he can later deny and also anything he said himself.

    The other thing I've noticed is when employers really badly want to get rid of a staff member they often make mistakes because they are so eager to get rid of you that they forget to stick to their own procedures or even employment law. The old adage, never stop your opponent when they are making a mistake applies, just use it to strengthen your case when the time comes.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 25,466 ✭✭✭✭Strumms


    devnull wrote: »
    When someone is trying to push you out they will try every trick under the sun to get rid of you and unsettle you and try and force you into resigning if they cannot get rid of you another way.

    My advice is to keep calm and do not let them provoke you into any actions or words which might give them some leverage. If you have to take time off for stress then do not hesitate to do so. If you can get a doctor to write a letter explaining this to your employer even better.

    In my experience when someone is suffering from anxiety, stress or other related conditions most employers tend to back off for the time you are signed off. Even the ones that are really desperate to manage you out. It also might buy you some time to get your head in order, look for other jobs and get out of the circle so to speak.

    I'd also urge you to try and keep as many communications as possible via email / writing and try and avoid person to person conversations on your own with him if at all possible because anything you say to him in such conversation he can later deny and also anything he said himself.

    The other thing I've noticed is when employers really badly want to get rid of a staff member they often make mistakes because they are so eager to get rid of you that they forget to stick to their own procedures or even employment law. The old adage, never stop your opponent when they are making a mistake applies, just use it to strengthen your case when the time comes.

    One old trick used is to overload the employee with work and assignments. It will affect the employees work life, moral and health and wellbeing outside of their job that they have little option but to leave. For health and sanity. I’ve seen this happen first hand in what had been a reputable company. The employee questioned it, as did I...

    We were told that the employee was a ‘resource’ and that resources would be used as necessary. He was being assigned about 30% more work over the week when compared to his older colleagues, the most labor intensive tasks and the least enjoyable too. Previously the tasks were rotated from week to week and rotated between employees but now it was mostly lumped on him, he eventually left and I was for a time looking like the next fall guy. We both had things in common such as a dislike for our supervisor and an older generally incapable colleague who was of value to ‘them’ as a ‘yes man’ and silent back stabber.

    ‘Managing out’ is a term but it’s a contradiction. It’s actually impossible to ‘manage’ an employee out of anywhere. ‘Bullying’ out for sure, I’ve witnessed it at close quarters.. you need to be savvy and alive to it. Also be ready to fight back.


  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 11,670 Mod ✭✭✭✭devnull


    Strumms wrote: »
    One old trick used is to overload the employee with work and assignments. It will affect the employees work life, moral and health and wellbeing outside of their job that they have little option but to leave. For health and sanity. I’ve seen this happen first hand in what had been a reputable company. The employee questioned it, as did I.

    The other well known ones are spending a large amount of time, going through a employees work, reviewing it in minor detail, trying to find something they can bring up, whilst not reviewing any of the work of their colleagues. There was one manager I had where the quality assurance was done by another unconnected team using a random number generator to determine what to sample. The manager brought it back in house and then ordered a yes man to only pull for quality excellent work for the people he wanted to promote and to only pull the worst of the work for the people he wanted to move on. So you ended up with excellent staff member where 99.5% of their work was good always randomly having their 0.5% of not so good work and staff who churn out terrible stuff most of the time never having that terrible work sampled.

    Also he started putting words like 'discretion' and 'judgement call' into the quality guidelines and making them more vague than they previously were, which made it harder for people to complain that they were not being treated fairly. His argument was essentially that you cannot have strict quality guidelines as they don't always fit, but his only motivation behind it was that by building in vagueness, it made it easier for him to treat people different since it was around the same time that quality and performance levels were considered to be confidential information and any communication with colleagues was considered unacceptable.
    ‘Managing out’ is a term but it’s a contradiction. It’s actually impossible to ‘manage’ an employee out of anywhere. ‘Bullying’ out for sure, I’ve witnessed it at close quarters.. you need to be savvy and alive to it. Also be ready to fight back.

    To me, managing out, means management actions that are designed to intimidate an employee or make him or her feel very uncomfortable in the workplace in the hope that they will resign or the pressure and the bullying will lead them to doing something where the employee will be sacked.

    The managing out process can go on for many months, depending on the resilience of the employee, but normally work, but every now and then you get a stubborn, well advised employee who will keep their cool and be happy to play the long game and drag it out for 6-9 months or more by clever tactics and detailed knowledge of employment law, company policy and principles of natural justice and fairness. Most of these employees do all of their submissions to the company in writing and say very little in meetings arranged to catch them out with gotchas.

    Such employees hope that their employer will either make a mistake through their desperation to get rid of them, that creates an opportunity for a good constructive dismissal case or the employer will just get fed up and offer them a lucrative settlement agreement with a reference wording of the employees choice to get it over and done with once they've realised that the employee is not going to resign and they can't find a way to sack them.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 6 coeurdalene24


    Hi All. Just wanted to give you all an update... So unfortunately the bullying has intensified to the point where the anxiety was just too much to take. My insomnia has resurfaced for the first time in 30 years and anxiety to the point of nausea, panic attacks. I tried to soldier on but could not and had to call the docs on monday. This was hard ; I find it difficult to talk about myself let alone with a stranger. They prescribed me medicine and self cert for now and phone in a week. I called work and told them my mental health was wrecked and the doctor has said to take some time out.

    Later on in the day despite saying the doctor wants me away from this I got a personal email from you know who demanding I call him. I had only just calmed down and was thrown back into the anxiety. I have yet to reply.


  • Registered Users Posts: 831 ✭✭✭Diziet


    Reply to the email saying you will call him as soon as you are back at work. Then chill, you need the break.


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,551 ✭✭✭The White Feather


    Sorry to hear that update. I would do as Diziet suggests or get someone to ring him on your behalf. Get them to just tell the facts. You are out on sick leave for your mental health and don't wish to talk. Tell them to hang up without a discussion. They are just passing on the facts. Or if you are doing it, the same thing. Even ring his voicemail if you can't bear to talk to him. This way you are covering yourself as you can say later that he asked you to call and you did. Not your problem if he missed it and it went to voicemail!

    Then just switch off everything. Phones, email and etc

    Did you sort out your CV? Sent it out? Ring recruitment companies now that you have time as well. They might have a temporary job that might suit you for a month or 2. Then you could email saying it hasnt worked out and you are off to a new job!

    This is about you taking time for you now and getting back on track. Don't think about that job. Start doing things you like to do such as a walk, run or watching netflix or dvds. Whatever it is that will get you back to your regular self. You will be fine. Don't worry its just a job. Its not your life. It will get better. Best of luck with everything.


  • Registered Users Posts: 7,870 ✭✭✭Grumpypants


    Just reply saying you are unable to call at the moment, that the doctor has ordered you to rest and you will be in touch once you feel better.

    When you go back ask for a meeting, and just say the constant bullying has had a negative impact on your health. It stops now, as a manager you have a duty of care for your employees.

    To be honest no job or any amount if money is worth it. I'd rather be on the dole than get that sick.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 6 coeurdalene24


    Thank you everybody.

    Just wondering when I speak to the doctor on Monday whether i have any other choice than to have a week or two of official sick leave. I know I am not ready to go back and as you say nowhere near feeling my normal self yet. Not only am I anxious about going back but also anxious about having sick on my official work/health record... what a catch 22. I know i shouldn't but feel ashamed and like I have somehow failed. Maybe that's an old school male mentality towards mental health and I should be trying to treat it like any other physical injury like my friends keep telling me.

    Above all else i just want to be in a state where I can have a normal nights sleep again and be rid of this constant nauseating feeling in the pit of my stomach.

    Appreciate the support and yes the job hunt is well and truly under way.


  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 11,670 Mod ✭✭✭✭devnull


    Sorry to hear that update. I would do as Diziet suggests or get someone to ring him on your behalf. Get them to just tell the facts. You are out on sick leave for your mental health and don't wish to talk. Tell them to hang up without a discussion. They are just passing on the facts. Or if you are doing it, the same thing. Even ring his voicemail if you can't bear to talk to him. This way you are covering yourself as you can say later that he asked you to call and you did. Not your problem if he missed it and it went to voicemail!

    Sorry but the OP absolutely should avoid phone calls as a method of communication where you are being bullied by a manager at work. Managers like this like to have conversations in person when nobody else is present or over the phone because there is no proven record of what was said.

    All communication should be carried out in written form where possible, ideally via email because it doesn't allow anyone to claim something was not said that they did say or claim you said something that you didn't later on. Unfortunately misrepresentation of conversations is a frequent tactic used.

    Something like this is perfect I find for such absences
    Dear <name>

    As you are aware, I attended <doctor> at <GP Practice> in relation to my recent absence from work.

    During the consultation, due to a number of factors such as <list reasons in general terms>, Dr <name> came to the opinion that due to my <list symptoms>, I should be certified off from work for a period initially of <number of weeks> weeks for the benefit of my mental health and well-being which may be subject to further review depending on the situation at the end of the <number of weeks> week period.

    Dr <name> has suggested that if following the expiry of the <number of weeks> weeks I still do not feel in a position to work, counselling or medication may be required, however hopefully the rest and time out from the stress and a total disconnect from work and work related conversations to focus on my health and wellbeing will allow me to refresh myself to a degree where this is not necessary.

    This certified period will cover me from <date range>. I have been given a social welfare form and a medical certificate which I have scanned/posted to you. For your part could you please send me a copy of the company sick leave policy so I can ensure I can adhere to it in full.

    Many thanks for your understanding with the above and I will contact you if the situation changes, otherwise I look forward to returning to work on <first date after cert runs out>.

    You are effectively telling the manager in an indirect way that you hope to be back at a certain time but it may be longer if they do not leave you alone. Such email response should serve as a wake up call for the manager as to where this is heading and that if they carry on you could be off for longer.

    It is possible that the manager may still not get the hint, but the number one test of a constructive dismissal claim is essentially 'what would a reasonable employer do?' and to get such a mail and to outline the health concerns and the symptoms and effect it is having on your life, backed by a medical professional, his actions would not be considered reasonable.


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,551 ✭✭✭The White Feather


    Yes I would agree to send that email and not ring in as Devnull says. I almost forgot for a second that he was a bully and would end up saying you never rang him anyway.

    I wouldn't worry about having sick leave on your record at all. Where I worked that I said in an earlier post , I used a guy in the office that I trusted to say that he oversaw my work when he didn't really. I used him as my reference. I was out sick a load of times as I hated going in but he didn't say that of course. That way I didn't have to use my boss.

    Originally I said to ride it out, but as its affecting your health and wellbeing to that extent, you need to get out asap. I would take any job that comes up to give you a reset button effect and off you go again. Even if its temporary, it gets you out of there.Then you won't be worried about sick leave,emails phone calls to him etc Then you will be able to sleep at night and all this is a distant memory.

    If you have to, drop down your usual salary demands as even if you are on lower pay you will be happier out of there. Whatever it takes to start a new job asap. Then its the most happiest email ever to your boss,"I'm gone, send out my p45, adios"

    Bet on yourself. You know that you can build yourself up again in a new job even if its lower pay. Bullies don't win. You will regroup and come back better and stronger in a different job. This is what I said to myself and it has worked out for me eventually.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 626 ✭✭✭Meeoow


    I was signed off with work related stress for 2 weeks before. I am like you, I hate talking about my feelings, and felt like I was weak for having to be signed off. But look at it this way, you have been shouldering all the stress, now you have put it back to them. They should try to work with you to resolve it.
    Your work should not contact you if you have submitted the sick note. The note says all they need to know.
    Take time out to rest, go back and look for another job.


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