Detective Garda Colm Horkan killed in Castlerea, Roscommon - [MOD WARNING POST #1]

Tacitus Kilgore

walshb wrote: »

Yes, but this is the big big problem now.

People wanting to use mental health (whatever the fook that means in many cases) as an excuse for nearly any heinous crime...

"Ah, sure the mental health flared up. What was I to do?"

That's some horseshit there pal, showing great ignorance


Mental health ≠ mental illness, maybe you should have a read about the differences

Galwayguy35

They put O Donnell in Dundrum Mental Hospital after what he did, guessing it might be somewhere like that he would go.

walshb

Tacitus Kilgore wrote: »

That's some horseshit there pal, showing great ignorance


Mental health ≠ mental illness, maybe you should have a read about the differences

Semantics rubbish from you

Simple: Society is full of people excusing bad behaviors due to mental health and mental illness and mental whatever....In many cases it's a crock of sh1t. Just bad people in the world a lot of the time....nasty people.

Get it?

Hamsterchops

The shooter was riding a "moped" (presumably a petrol engined scooter) when he was stoped by the law. If his mental health & drug issues were as bad as some claim, how did he get road tax and insurance to ride his machine on the roads?

HildaOgdenx

For Forks Sake wrote: »

It's not a new phenomenon, there were four people killed in my local hospital in the space of four months back in the late 80s, (one a double murder, the other a murder-suicide).

https://www.pressreader.com/ireland/the-sligo-champion/20080917/282205121694813

A lot of murder cases tend to slide from the public consciousness pretty quickly, apart from a couple of either high-profile (eg Veronica Guerin) or particularly gruesome (eg Graham Dwyer/Elaine O'Hara) cases.

I remember those cases so well. Shocking.

Tacitus Kilgore

Hamsterchops wrote: »

The shooter was riding a "moped" (presumably a petrol engined scooter) when he was stoped by the law. If his mental health & drug issues were as bad as some claim, how did he get tax & insurance to ride his machine on the roads?

You know mopeds still work without tax & insurance yeah?

also, since when do you need a psychiatric report to tax a moped?

seamus

CrankyHaus wrote: »

Unfortunately this is what happens with care in the community.

I think that's overstating it a bit. The vast, vast majority of those with mental illness pose no danger to the public. This kind of incident is thankfully rare. We don't need to stigmatise mental illness because a tiny number of individuals are a risk. Tens of thousands of people living in the community have a far better quality of life than they would if they were committed to an institution, and they pose to no risk to the public.

You seem to be suggesting that care in the community is a mistake and should be abandoned, but it seems more likely that there are some holes in the system that allow very seriously ill individuals to be discharged into public.

And there's no great link-up between the health and justice system. As you say, these people end up getting embroiled in the standard justice system, and all sorts of issues arise. Criminal behaviour of course has to be dealt with, but someone who is under the auspices of the HSE under the care in the community scheme, shouldn't end up being handled by the Gardai and the court system.

The mental health services should be getting involved to reasses their suitability for public release as soon as they come to the attention of Gardai at all.

Otherwise what you're doing is making them a burden on the Gardai, and even if all they do is a little bit of petty theft from shops, they become a "local character" that the Gardai have to deal with on a constant basis.

lillycakes2

He should be put on death row, cold blooded murderer................

jimgoose

seamus wrote: »

I think that's overstating it a bit. The vast, vast majority of those with mental illness pose no danger to the public. This kind of incident is thankfully rare. We don't need to stigmatise mental illness because a tiny number of individuals are a risk. Tens of thousands of people living in the community have a far better quality of life than they would if they were committed to an institution, and they pose to no risk to the public...

I know a couple of people with schizophrenia, one chap in particular will tell you all about it quite candidly over a pint. He says his medication is excellent and keeps things on an even keel most of the time, but when it's bad it's horrible. Executive summary: it's less chainsaws-and-hockey-masks and more I-haven't-slept-for-three-weeks-and-I'm-terrified-of-my-walls.

Tacitus Kilgore

walshb wrote: »

Semantics rubbish from you

Simple: Society is full of people excusing bad behaviors due to mental health and mental illness and mental whatever....In many cases it's a crock of sh1t. Just bad people in the world a lot of the time....nasty people.

Get it?

Semantics? Really?


One is a range of illnesses, actual certifiable illnesses, the other is a state of mind.

The only crock of shit here is the post I have just quoted, are you living in the 1950s or something?

Nermal

Let's see some skin in the game.

When a criminal is released back into the community and re-offends, both the criminal and the professional who signed off on his release should serve the same sentence.

For Forks Sake

lillycakes2 wrote: »

He should be put on death row, cold blooded murderer................

Ahem.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twenty-first_Amendment_of_the_Constitution_of_Ireland

begbysback

Nermal wrote: »

Let's see some skin in the game.

When a criminal is released back into the community and re-offends, both the criminal and the professional who signed off on his release should serve the same sentence.

Just spit me tea out here

LuasSimon

Be interesting to see had this killer many convictions??.....was he a drug user?....who are the drug dealers in Castlerea??

walshb

Nermal wrote: »

Let's see some skin in the game.

When a criminal is released back into the community and re-offends, both the criminal and the professional who signed off on his release should serve the same sentence.

I would agree for certain type crimes...

Armed robbery, home invasions, murder etc.......

Anyone signing off a lifer for release that kills again; the person(s) signing him out need to be removed from society...

Tell you one thing, we'd likely have a far safer overall society if people were held more accountable

TheCitizen

Reading an article from the mirror online that says there were Gardai in Castlerea Garda station 5 minutes walk away who heard the shots and were obviously quick on the scene. If there was Gardai in the station 5 minutes away, why was the detective on his own in this situation? Why bring a gun into an incident like that when the assailant is unarmed? If they need to arrest him outnumber him and use taser guns or whatever.

I’m no expert and obviously it’s no help to the unfortunate Garda in this incident but I’d imagine they’ll be reviewing their procedures after this.

is_that_so

LuasSimon wrote: »

Be interesting to see had this killer many convictions??.....was he a drug user?....who are the drug dealers in Castlerea??

According to the Indo he was a "nuisance" and had mental issues.

Witcher

TheCitizen wrote: »

Reading an article from the mirror online that says there were Gardai in Castlerea Garda station 5 minutes walk away who heard the shots and were obviously quick on the scene. If there was Gardai in the station 5 minutes away, why was the detective on his own in this situation? Why bring a gun into an incident like that when the assailant is unarmed? If they need to arrest him outnumber him and use taser guns or whatever.

I’m no expert and obviously it’s no help to the unfortunate Garda in this incident but I’d imagine they’ll be reviewing their procedures after this.

Detectives are always armed and he wasn't attending an incident.

walshb

Tacitus Kilgore wrote: »

Semantics? Really?


One is a range of illnesses, actual certifiable illnesses, the other is a state of mind.

The only crock of shit here is the post I have just quoted, are you living in the 1950s or something?

What are you on about?

You didn't read what I wrote...

Society today uses mental health tags and words and lines....they use the whole area of mental health to excuse so much bad behavior

Not sure what you are even arguing here.....

Read what I wrote....mental health, mental illness, or whatever other label/tag etc; people are using it incessantly to explain and excuse bad behaviours.

Tacitus Kilgore

walshb wrote: »

Semantics rubbish from you

Simple: Society is full of people excusing bad behaviors due to mental health and mental illness and mental whatever....In many cases it's a crock of sh1t. Just bad people in the world a lot of the time....nasty people.

Get it?

walshb wrote: »

What are you on about?

You didn't read what I wrote...

Society today uses mental health tags and words and lines....they use the whole area of mental health to excuse so much bad behavior

Not sure what you are even arguing here.....

Read what I wrote....metal health, mental illness, or whatever other label/tag etc; people are using it incessantly to explain and excuse bad behaviours.

Have it right here, it's pure scutter, you're not arguing anything. Society doesn't do anything of the sort, most of society doesn't conflate mental health to mental illness either.

You are the one simplifying it to "bad people"

nonsense of the highest order.

Hamsterchops

Tacitus Kilgore wrote: »

You know mopeds still work without tax & insurance yeah?

Indeed they do, it was a rhetorical question.

Gregor Samsa

TheCitizen wrote: »

Reading an article from the mirror online that says there were Gardai in Castlerea Garda station 5 minutes walk away who heard the shots and were obviously quick on the scene. If there was Gardai in the station 5 minutes away, why was the detective on his own in this situation? Why bring a gun into an incident like that when the assailant is unarmed? If they need to arrest him outnumber him and use taser guns or whatever.

I’m no expert and obviously it’s no help to the unfortunate Garda in this incident but I’d imagine they’ll be reviewing their procedures after this.

My understanding is that he was just out on a routine patrol, and came across yer man acting the nuisance on a moped/motorbike. Seems that a conversation with the guy quickly escalated into something very unexpected. Detectives carry guns as a matter of course - if he came across kids rescuing a kitten up a tree, he'd still have his gun on him. As to why he was on his own, that's a question alright, but I see plenty of Garda cars driving around my town with just one occupant

CrankyHaus

seamus wrote: »

You seem to be suggesting that care in the community is a mistake and should be abandoned, but it seems more likely that there are some holes in the system that allow very seriously ill individuals to be discharged into public.

I'm not suggesting it. I'm saying it. In fact I think the word mistake is too generous, as we've had decades of experience from the US and elsewhere to show us where this policy leads.



It is a deliberate policy to kick the can down the road and save money today. We will create enormous social problems by putting people who need residential care out into environments where they cannot look after themselves and place an impossible burden upon family who may attempt to look after them.


As part of my work I visit residential care centres; which IME do a great job of providing dignity and care to vulnerable people. The negative stereotypes from works of fiction are deeply misleading. However in most instances the people running them tell me that they're in the process of shutting down and moving their service users into care in the community.



People who should be in residential care going off at the deep end and mudering people is only the most visible manifestation of this problem, the tip of the iceberg. Below it is a whole mountain of entirely preventable human suffering, enabled by this deeply flawed policy.

walshb

Tacitus Kilgore wrote: »

Have it right here, it's pure scutter, you're not arguing anything. Society doesn't do anything of the sort, most of society doesn't conflate mental health to mental illness either.

You are the one simplifying it to "bad people"

nonsense of the highest order.

More nonsense arguing...

You are not reading what I am writing, or are and cannot interpret its simplicity

Simple: Society today are excusing so much bad behaviors as being due to persons suffering with mental health issues......whether that be serious psychiatric disorders or whatever....

Just look at the amount of postings the minute someone does anything heinous....it's straight to the: "ah, sure he must have been suffering with mental health."

jimgoose

Gregor Samsa wrote: »

My understanding is that he was just out on a routine patrol, and came across yer man acting the nuisance on a motorbike. Seems that a conversation with the guy quickly escalated into something very unexpected. Detectives carry guns as a matter of course - if he came across kids rescuing a kitten up a tree, he'd still have his gun on him. As to why he was on his own, that's a question alright, but I see plenty of Garda cars driving around my town with just one occupant

It seems the killer and the chap with the motorcycle are two different people - the latter scarpered before the event, and the other fella had a "reaction" to being questioned by the Garda.

jimgoose

walshb wrote: »

Just look at the amount of postings the minute someone does anything heinous....it's straight to the: "ah, sure he must have been suffering with mental health."

No-one in their right mind is going to decide to take a detective's gun and empty it in his direction on the main street of Castlerea on a perfectly unremarkable evening for the craic, as part of some grand plan, the Illuminati, loyalty to Jeff Bezos, or for any reason other than being out of his mind.

Tacitus Kilgore

walshb wrote: »

More nonsense arguing...

You are not reading what I am writing, or are and cannot interpret its simplicity

Simple: Society today are excusing so much bad behaviors as being due to persons suffering with mental health issues......whether that be serious psychiatric disorders or whatever....

Just look at the amount of postings the minute someone does anything heinous....it's straight to the: "ah, sure he must have been suffering with mental health Illness."

FYP for you there

walshb

Tacitus Kilgore wrote: »

FYP for you there

Thanks....

And this may see us coming to an agreement...

I agree with you....but people just throw the words mental health about so willy nilly......

Mental health and mental health illness are absolutely linked....

So many today jump straight to the whole mental health "angle."

Many many many heinous acts are committed by nasty people. End of...

Vast majority of people suffering with mental health conditions/illnesses do not harm and hurt others.

Anyway, whatever excuses are given, any persons who commit heinous acts like this one need to be removed permanently from society.

walshb

jimgoose wrote: »

No-one in their right mind is going to decide to take a detective's gun and empty it in his direction on the main street of Castlerea on a perfectly unremarkable evening for the craic, as part of some grand plan, the Illuminati, loyalty to Jeff Bezos, or for any reason other than being out of his mind.

Yes, may well be the case here....

I never said it wasn't

Mad, bad, evil, having an off day, or whatever other reason/excuse is found; lock the man up and keep him away from society forever...

TheCitizen

Gregor Samsa wrote: »

My understanding is that he was just out on a routine patrol, and came across yer man acting the nuisance on a moped/motorbike. Seems that a conversation with the guy quickly escalated into something very unexpected. Detectives carry guns as a matter of course - if he came across kids rescuing a kitten up a tree, he'd still have his gun on him. As to why he was on his own, that's a question alright, but I see plenty of Garda cars driving around my town with just one occupant

A routine patrol? Any time I've seen a routine patrol or Garda road checkpoint there would be at least two Guards or more. Why would a detective be doing routine patrols. You don't need armed Gardai for routine patrols.

It was a very random incident that maybe couldn't have been prevented but hopefully there will be some tightening of safety procedures for Gardai arising from it.