Detective Garda Colm Horkan killed in Castlerea, Roscommon - [MOD WARNING POST #1]

Gregor Samsa

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120364186#Comment_120364186

”beyond a reasonable doubt” is not a threshold of certainty. There is still room for some doubt in it. And “all observers” have no say in the matter - it’s entirely in the hands of the jury and only the jury. Which is why you can’t get an appeal simply based on the fact that you think the jury got it wrong (unless they acted unlawfully in some way).

astrofool

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120364186#Comment_120364186

I would argue that time limits could also mean more guilty verdicts as juries may not have the time to fully consider the evidence presented, the defendant's legal team would generally see a longer deliberation as a good thing for their client. That's without getting into the various verdicts that can be delivered in some trials beyond just guilty/not gulity.

If we're going to doubt jury verdicts that are too quick or too slow then we may as well default to a judge's panel.

MrMusician18

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120364228#Comment_120364228

It is a threshold of certainty, where it is unreasonable to consider that the accused is not guilty. It's not absolute certainty but the level of uncertainty permitted is small.

The truth is there are no consequences for juries applying standards that fall below reasonable doubt and convict on those grounds.

In this case, the jury came to a conclusion that beyond reasonable doubt that Silver was fully aware and in charge of his faculties when he committed this crime. This being a man that has a long documented history of serious mental illness. The jury were certain of this, despite another jury hearing the same evidence and not being fully convinced.

Strumms

One thing that strikes me from this case is how utterly ridiculous it is to have armed detectives on patrol, alone.

If Garda Horkan had an armed colleague with him that evening, he’s more than likely still alive to tell the tale… This Silver lad goes for the Garda’s gun, the Garda colleague shoots Silver… end of problem.

what if tonight, in a rural spot a pub is being robbed at closing…. Does a single armed Garda race to the scene ? Or …Does he park up half a kilometre away and await backup ? Which is fûcking pointless for the clients and business and owners of the pub, or put himself at significant risk by taking on a team of armed robbers… ? Armed Gardai shouldn’t be alone… makes zero sense, especially in rural areas where said necessary backup is likely to be a significant wait away…. Emergencies involving / requiring firearms cannot wait.

Also, during the trial….consultant psychiatrist Professor Harry Kennedy told the jury that he found “no positive evidence” that Silver had suffered a relapse of bipolar affective disorder at the time he shot dead Gda Horkan. Professor Kennedy is Clinical Professor of Forensic Psychiatry….. so that debunks thoroughly any supposed notion that Silver was ‘unwell’ as opposed to just a plain old horror show of a creature.

Potential-Monke

It is ridiculous, and it's only going to get worse especially if Sinn Fein get into power (they've been known to not support AGS). It's always been that way tbh. A Garda shouldn't do any job solo, there should always be at least 2 for anything. But that's in an ideal world where AGS are not understaffed. But as noted by someone earlier, D/Garda Donohue had backup but didn't matter. Having a second member there could have resulted in 2 dead Gardai, who knows!

Happy he's been convicted. No one is saying he doesn't have issues, but evidence was given and accepted that he wasn't relapsing at the time, thus the guilty murder conviction. Probably will be an appeal but can't see it being reduced tbh. Then again, it is the 2020's so anything can happen.

tayto lover

Pretending to be insane thankfully didn't work for this murderer. Justice is done.

Packrat

I'm normally in the hang em high camp on these cases - I had two family members murdered in cold blood by a mentally ill (now dead) man several years ago in a case which shocked the country at the time.

I want what most here want - this fxxcker out of where he can do any further harm until he dies.

However, - it's as obvious as a nose on a face that this guy is severely mentally ill at times, probably including at the time of the murder and that the correct verdict was guilty but insane.

He could be out in under 30 years if he behaves himself, which wouldn't ever happen if he went to the CMH.

In fact it would be a better punishment for him being locked up with other crazies rather than prison where he'll be a feared unpredictable hero to many of the other prisoners.

nacho libre

It must be difficult for people who were both friends with the victim and with Stephen Silver. I feel sorry for his sister too. Of course I have the most sympathy for Colm Horkan's family. They have a void that will never be filled. Silver's sister can still see him again. He has deprived the Horkan family of that. Colm Horkan seemed like a good man who wanted to help people through his work. If Silver had taken his medication this killing might not have happened. I suppose those who think he was just 'bad' will be of the view it would have happened whether he was taking his medication or not. I am not sure I agree with this or the learned impunity argument either, I mean who in their right mind thinks they are going to walk away free after killing a Guard. Does this not suggest he was delusional?

kirk.

Will there definitely be an appeal ?

No guarantee that verdict would be upheld

Boggles

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120365381#Comment_120365381

They can appeal on whatever grounds they think would be successful, but that doesn't mean it will be upheld and a retrial ordered.

kirk.

So they're not guaranteed to be given a retrial ?

Seems to me this insanity could come back into play

Bobblehats

This is the fellow who cited a climate of BLM as motivation. Very little made of that, in sharp contrast to if it happened in actual America indeed you might say it has been curiously removed but if he was prone to that I would suggest a retrial on the grounds of insanity…

hoodie6029

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120364368#Comment_120364368

Wasn’t a Garda in solo patrol in a border town last year given a very serious assault? Either had to run for his life or was lucky that back up arrived when it did. No surprise, that ‘no one saw nothing’ when it was investigated.

The attempted murder of a Garda in Inchicore too on solo patrol a couple of years ago. Perpetrator walked with a conviction of assault causing harm. The Garda would’ve been killed if DFB hadn’t arrived to intervene when they did.

They’ve been dithering on introducing specific crimes of assault on Gardai. I don’t know why. Maybe s(um would see it as a badge of honour to have that on their ‘CV’. At the very least sentencing guidelines should be increased for these crimes.

Boggles

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120365560#Comment_120365560

Well the appeal judges would have to rule that the trial was flawed.

On grounds would that be?

Get another expert in to say he wasn't insane at the time? That would be pointless.

Personally IMO he shouldn't have been let near the stand, but that's not grounds for appeal.

MegamanBoo

Just because this case might not meet the legal criteria for a retrial doesn't make the conviction ethically or logically sound.

The system isn't infallible and this looks like a perfect example why.

It looks like the jury decided to go with one expert in a field with a clear degree of subjectivity, over another equally qualified expert.

It wasn't like the defense brought out some questionable 'expert for hire'.

The guy was going to be incarcerated for a long time anyway. I don't know what purpose is served by having a jury of lay people settle an academic argument on defining what stage of a mental breakdown had been reached, other than the indefensible effect it might have Mr Silvers and his family.

Glaceon

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120363384#Comment_120363384

Also, he pleaded guilty to manslaughter so "not guilty by reason of insanity" wasn't an option the jury could choose.

hoodie6029

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120365803#Comment_120365803

I don’t think you understand the legal system or the Constitution that underpins all our laws and how trials are conducted. There are many nuances to legal proceedings. You wanting it to be different or not understanding it does not make it wrong and make your opinion valid.

I doubt you have ever even sat in a Court to see how it works.

MegamanBoo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120365882#Comment_120365882

Yup I've seen it work in Court and I'm familiar with the process.

Law and ethics aren't necessary the same thing, is that what you have a problem with?

hoodie6029

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120365901#Comment_120365901

No but I’ve better things to do than engaging with the likes of you. You know everything that is wrong but are mute on solutions. Ignore list.

MegamanBoo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120366093#Comment_120366093

I guess I might not have grasped your legal 'nuances' anyway. Sounds very big and complicated.

An Ri rua

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120363770#Comment_120363770

It is totally down to ineffective protocol. An accident waiting to happen.

Its why you never introduce a weapon into a fight unless you intend to use it. An unarmed Garda accompanying an Armed Detective would have been more effective. Once the armed Garda was compromised, the whole thing has gone upside down. Effectively, the weapon cannot be unholstered or fired except in prescribed circumstances. In which case an armed Garda getting too close to punters is a big tactical mistake. Unless they have another weapon to draw on e.g. pepper spray, baton, stun gun. But a streetfight when having a weapon, be it a knife, gun, bat or brick is a disaster waiting to happen unless you use it before it gets used on you. Joe Soap can do that, a Garda can't. God rest him, a huge waste of precious life. Garda management need to wake up and do their jobs.

Always_Running

What new if any new evidence came into place since the last trial? In November the jury was unable to reach a decision and now its unanimous decision of capital murder.

Strumms

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120365560#Comment_120365560

If an experienced expert in the field of psychology says that there wasn’t any evidence to support him being insane…. It’s highly probable that another expert will simply uphold that opinion. Can’t see where any evidence would emanate from to have it challenged….

Boggles

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120368498#Comment_120368498

If an experienced expert in the field of psychology says that there wasn’t any evidence to support him being insane

TBF the go to guy for the DPP in these cases is Professor Harry Kennedy, I don't think I have seen him agree that someone has diminished responsibility in any case using it as a defence.

Faugheen

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120364625#Comment_120364625

How will he be out in under 30 years if he behaves himself?

Have you any idea what a minimum sentence means?

HeidiHeidi

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120369407#Comment_120369407

He's entitled to 25% remission, even on a capital sentence, if he doesn't misbehave.

Strumms

Silver is 46 now. So the likelihood is he won’t be seeing freedom till he’s 70 plus.

not much of a life left for him then, having to start completely over, at that age… his making, his decision, zero sympathy…

kirk.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120369669#Comment_120369669

Unlikely he had much of a life anyway

TooTired123

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120364172#Comment_120364172

Bebo user in 22, the most eminent Amateur Armchair Professor of Psychiatry at the University of Hard Knocks.

TooTired123

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120363292#Comment_120363292

The Judge explains to the jury in great detail and at great length how to approach the different reports into the capacity of the defendant. The jury proceeds then from his advice.