Detective Garda Colm Horkan killed in Castlerea, Roscommon - [MOD WARNING POST #1]

Oscar_Madison · 20-03-2023 2:25pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120379127#Comment_120379127

Using that analogy, you could say that one of the players, whilst in possession of an injury, is not injured enough to prevent him playing.

nacho libre · 20-03-2023 2:28pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120379154#Comment_120379154

12 other Individuals didn't though. The fact he killed him and fired 11 bullet into him is not in doubt

The defense never disputed that. What is disputed is his state of mind at the time.

It is reasonable to assume the jury were heavily persuaded by the evidence of the state's expert witness and the main witness to the events that Silver was of sound mind when he carried out this act. Let me be clear, I am not trying to diminish what happened to Colm Horkan. He seemed to be one of the good guys in life. He was a credit to the force. It's terribly sad what happened to happened to him. However , right or wrongly, I am of the view Silver was mentally ill when this happened. Although in the final analysis he is to blame for not taking his medicine. He knew what had happened in the past when he stopped taking it. Maybe state services did let him down, and Covid certainly did not help matters ,but no one can force you to take your medication.

Green Peter · 20-03-2023 2:31pm

I'm sure if it was one of the do gooders own family that was shot and murdered they would have an entirely different view. I trust in the jury of 12 regular people that heard the evidence. I hope he lives every day of his sentence and that they are long, boring and depressing days.

Oscar_Madison · 20-03-2023 2:37pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120379243#Comment_120379243

There’s consequences for one’s actions- if you don’t take your medicine- the thing that keeps you sane- and you end up shooting someone, you could be tried and convicted of murder- which has happened in this case- his excuse was that it made him put on weight and he was drowzey - well being fat and sleepy is far better than being in prison for the rest of your life.

Also you can’t compare both trials- the defence changed their legal team for trial 2- that in itself could have made all the difference - in addition, unless the two trials were conducted exactly the same, an impossibility, then you can’t compare the decisions of both except to say that in trail 2, either the prosecution sharpened up their evidence to make it water tight, or the defence didn’t do such a great job of creating doubt second time around

nacho libre · 20-03-2023 2:48pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120379277#Comment_120379277

So are you in agreement this probably would never have happened if he took his medicine.

I was not aware he changed his defence team, but it's interesting you mentioned this as from reading the reports of the second trial I felt their viewpoints were not as persuasive as they were in the first trial. I did not hear much evidence that was new from the prosecution, aside from the testimony of the ESB contract workers. Did the defense call the Australian woman who was with Silver during the days leading up to the shooting to give evidence? I can't recall if they did in either trial.

nacho libre · 20-03-2023 2:54pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120379228#Comment_120379228

You could also extend that further by saying you or he would not be best placed to make that decision. That it should be in the hands of a qualified expert to make that determination, one who is impartial,preferably.

Oscar_Madison · 20-03-2023 2:57pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120379343#Comment_120379343

I didn’t follow the trial closely in terms of all of the reports so cannot comment- and even if I did, I would never have obtained the view the jury got, so in some way, I don’t see that being overly productive in that we’ll never see and hear what the jury saw and heard so can’t ever be 100% sure what exactly drove them to this decision.

However I don’t think the prosecution would disagree that Silver was mentally unwell- but that’s not the issue here- the question is, was he well enough to make a conscious decision on the day in question to kill the victim - the jury believed that he was.

Oscar_Madison · 20-03-2023 3:04pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120379392#Comment_120379392

It’s our legal system- it’s not “perfect” but it’s all we got- but you keep going back to the expert medical evidence- true it’s a significant part of what secured this conviction but it’s not the only part-

In America, for high profile child abuse trials, there was a particular “expert” that has appeared in many of these trials spouting “false memory” theory to juries to create doubt on abuse victim testimonies- it was apparently successful in a number of cases. I don’t agree with that approach either but at some stage, at some time, SOMEONE needs to make a decision - otherwise we’ll have murderers rapists etc all walking around free, because the medical evidence is all too complicated for us mere mortals to understand.

I think not but since we’re here, who do you believe should have testified on behalf of the prosecution and why? And who do you believe should make the guilty not guilty verdict decisions?

The prosecution chose their “man”- the defence chose theirs- the prosecution argument won- that’s about as fair as it gets in our legal system

MegamanBoo · 20-03-2023 3:08pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120379228#Comment_120379228

I think the manager in this analogy would be happier with that possible. Having somebody who's possibly injured playing, is clearly preferable to having somebody who's probably injured playing.

Oscar_Madison · 20-03-2023 3:11pm

Also in terms of medical evidence- it’s only ever a “view”-and assuming it’s a view based on the most up to date research possible- in years to come, research or whatnot may overturn these “views” of how a person might behave in these circumstances- then Silver may have a chance of an appeal based on new scientific evidence that refutes such testimony- but right now, the view put forward by the prosecution is the view taken on by the jury. The defence also had a medical “view”- this apparently wasn’t accepted by the jury- maybe the defence should have obtained a more robust “view”?

MegamanBoo · 20-03-2023 3:14pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120379422#Comment_120379422

I think that's quite inaccurate. The jury didn't find that Mr Silver was well at all.

They only found there was doubt as to whether he was entirely unwell.

I appreciate it's impossible to legislate for every scenario but for me there's a barn door between those positions.

I'm not sure how our laws on these matters compare to other countries but I believe we should allow for a finding of 'guilt unknown' in cases like these and still have the individual committed for a minimum period.

Out of interest, and as something of an aside, what would happen if I was part of this jury and refused to give a verdict?

Oscar_Madison · 20-03-2023 3:19pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120379538#Comment_120379538

You would have to give a verdict as it’s your sworn duty to do so but it may be one that’s not aligned with the other 11 jurors- I don’t know what conditions are required for a judge to accept a majority verdict but it’s possible a majority rather than unanimous verdict would be asked for in this case- I think majority is classed as 10:2 at most (ie two decenting jurors) but stand correct corrected if say a 9:3 or indeed 8:4 is allowed but I think it’s 10:2 max.

MegamanBoo · 20-03-2023 3:24pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120379575#Comment_120379575

Interesting, can you refuse that duty on the grounds of believing it's not always possible to ascertain?

Oscar_Madison · 20-03-2023 3:32pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120379602#Comment_120379602

Well if you can’t make up your mind, even for a guilty of manslaughter verdict with diminished responsibility, then maybe you’re not a fit person to take on the role of juror in the first place- at the start of the trial your task would have been outlined to you before being sworn in- it’s at that point you have the chance to state you’re not capable of deciding a verdict- not at the end of the trial.

nacho libre · 20-03-2023 4:01pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120379422#Comment_120379422

Well I think given they reached a verdict of capital murder we can reasonably assume that what drove them to the decision was the evidence put forward by the prosecution suggesting he knew what he was doing and was essentially lying about being in fear for his own safety. We may not have heard all the evidence the jury did , but that has not stopped people forming an opinion either way. Would the jury have convicted Silver of Capital Murder without the testimony of Professor Harry Kennedy? We, of course, can't say for definite that they would have,but it's highly unlikely without it in my view

Oscar_Madison · 20-03-2023 4:19pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120379816#Comment_120379816

The judge, if asked by the jury, can also outline the legislation in place as to what elements need to be in place in order to find a guilty verdict of murder. I would imagine the jury asked or was possibly even given such guidelines by the judge considering the seriousness of the case and the complexity- as I’ve said many times the medical testimony is a major part but not the only part to this case.

nacho libre · 20-03-2023 4:26pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120379473#Comment_120379473

Since you ask, I believe Silver should have been tried by a Jury of Psychiatrists. I think it is an unfair imposition on a jury of lay people to be asked to determined what should be an issue for experts to decide on.

Oscar_Madison · 20-03-2023 4:39pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120379926#Comment_120379926

Fair enough- but we don’t have the facility in law to do that and anyway, there’s the medical evidence aspect but there’s also the rest of the non medical evidence to consider - you’re then considering a verdict purely on medical evidence alone

BUT- let’s play along with your suggestion and say for a minute, it required a panel of 5 psychiatrists with a majority of 4/5 to convict - how do you think that would roll? 😀

You're back to each psychiatrist having their own view- just like this trial- at some stage someone has to make a decision - in our country that’s a jury of 12 people.

MegamanBoo · 20-03-2023 5:43pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120379646#Comment_120379646

So unless you're happy to see everything as black and white, you shouldn't be on a jury in the first place?

Oscar_Madison · 20-03-2023 5:47pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120380281#Comment_120380281

Nowhere did I say that.

MegamanBoo · 20-03-2023 5:55pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120380301#Comment_120380301

Correct me if my paraphrasing is inaccurate.

You're saying that if you weren't certain about being able to reach a conclusion before the trial, ie before you say the evidence, you should withdraw?

Oscar_Madison · 20-03-2023 5:59pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120380337#Comment_120380337

I said nothing of the sort

If you cannot commit to the oath you swear as a juror then don’t do jury duty.

kirk. · 20-03-2023 6:22pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120379203#Comment_120379203

I doubt that's true

A majority might have either addiction or mental health issues

nullzero · 20-03-2023 7:23pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120379926#Comment_120379926

If that was the case what should the outcome be?

A more lenient sentence served in a psychiatric facility? Education services to rehabilitate him and get him back out into the workforce?

Do you believe that being mentally unwell to the point that you disarm a Detective Garda and shoot them eleven times with their own weapon because you feel police have if coming because of something that happened in another country is something that can be "cured" or "managed" to the point that the person can be reintroduced to society?

I'm seeing a lot of posts about the defendants mental capacity being a factor in how they should have been charged and then sentenced. There's not a whole lot being said about the danger this man poses to society.

As usual the rights of criminals are given more weight than the crimes they commit and the impact on their victims and their families.

Ultimately this guy was an is a seriousy dangerous individual, he will receive the treatment needs at the tax payers expense but his victim will still be dead the whole way through that process and will remain dead while this man serves the sentence some here seem to feel isn't completely fair or justified.

Oscar_Madison · 20-03-2023 7:35pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120380442#Comment_120380442

A report on Irish prisons from a number of years ago granted, stated 60% of women prisoners had mental health issues- I don’t see much changing since

MegamanBoo · 20-03-2023 11:22pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120380738#Comment_120380738

Big difference between mental health issues and being mentally unwell to the point it was a causative factor.

nacho libre · 27-03-2023 9:08am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120379991#Comment_120379991

True, and I knew would say that. I would prefer the opinion of people who were experts in these matters. I would have more faith in it. I mean if I am sick, I would trust the opinion of someone qualified to assess me than say four mechanics , whose expertise is in dealing with fixing cars.

nacho libre · 27-03-2023 9:26am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120380702#Comment_120380702

To answer your question, there was a case sometime ago, in which a man in Sligo, who killed his wife and mother in law, was released from The Central Mental Hospital. He was assessed as no longer being a risk to the public. I would assume his release came with strict conditions. I think one of these conditions should be that, if you are on medication for mental illness, you must continue to take your medicine, failure to do so after release should be an automatic recall to prison. I had thought if Silver had not met Derek Mannion that day, maybe none of this would have happened, or maybe it would have just delayed something terrible happening to someone else. With this in mind It is unquestionably better he is off the streets. If he is truly remorseful he will surely regret not taking his medicine for the rest of his life.