Can we have some fcuking control on the airports from high risk countries please?

Feria40

fm wrote: »

He also said that the eu digital green certificate was a good idea to get travel going again this summer . Did you miss that part?

There you are now, I didn't hear the interview but see how we hear what we want to hear in it, or at least only report what we want from it:pac:

saabsaab

Main thing is to keep out the variants till vaccinations are rolled out.

faceman

Donnelly willing to cap travellers coming in to Ireland if need be. :rolleyes:

Also if people have to do MHQ on arrival there’s little point in them getting a pcr test before they travel

ninebeanrows

ShadowTech wrote: »

Thank you for this post! I was trying to find out if there was a sunset clause and because of your post I was able to find it in the legislation itself (because I now knew what I was looking for).

I hope you're wrong about it being extended but nothing would really surprise me anymore.

Anyway, I'm still trying to find the criteria the government is using for adding/removing a country. I suppose it's in the legislation too and I'll just need time to read it all thoroughly.

The issue is the variant issue, reports of variants are usually anecdotal and cannot really be measured.

A nation that carries out extensive genomic testing is therefore penalized. There are likely 100s of variants of COVID out there, maybe more?

The COVID rate thing seems fair enough once it is updated weekly, I hear they were using 500 per 100k 14 day average as a measure. This seems fair once it is continuously updated and not running on months old data.

We need an open and transparent list of measures for this to be fair, at the moment it isn't.

Rodin

ZX7R wrote: »

Everything has been in place since Last March, except the changes to home quarantine for travellers it was changed slightly 2 weeks ago

It's clearly not working then.
Poland's Covid figures are shocking.

monkeybutter

faceman wrote: »

Just to clarify, I’m not trying to suggest that the hse test result isn’t good enough. Just asking the question.

There was a family law court case a few years ago. I knew the barrister. Long story short it was a messy divorce with kids involved. The mother claimed the father wasn’t fit to be a father. HSE investigated and corroborated her story and prepared a report for the court. The father who was innocent, obtained 2 independent reports which l cleared his name. The judge took the independent reports over the hse and the father sued the hse.

Obviously different circumstances similar to my blood test but given quarantine is untested in courts it begs the question as to whether it could be argued that the impartiality in testing is important

what grounds did the father sue the HSE on exactly?

saabsaab

Professor Kingston Mills on new variants threat and vaccines RTE yesterday. Worth a listen, about 8 mins.
Judge for yourselves where he put his emphasis.

Travel restricted until vaccine roll out.


https://www.rte.ie/radio/radioplayer/html5/#/radio1/21934736

ZX7R

Rodin wrote: »

It's clearly not working then.
Poland's Covid figures are shocking.

Poland chose to do things differently, they try keep as much retail open as possible, schools are mostly on line, every time the schools close the numbers drop.
Social activities are closed ect.
Nearly 50 million people here you have to take that into account, only thing they really slipped up on was not stopping flight's from England quick enough.
Christmas was disastrous to be honest.
Different culture here they are definitely not scared of covid they respect it live with it.

faceman

monkeybutter wrote: »

what grounds did the father sue the HSE on exactly?

There was a couple but I can’t remember. I’d have to ask.

faceman

Was chatting to an Irish legal person friend about the “Dubai 2”. He is of the belief they have a very strong case on technical grounds and if they win it will open the floodgates to further challenges. Seemingly “absolute liability” is at play here. You can’t commit a criminal offence if you didn’t intend to break the law. It was quite technical how he explained.

He is also of the belief that they will get compensation for illegal detention as the state acted beyond its powers.

It will require a judicial review and will take time however. But if they win, it could mean other victims of MHQ can roll in behind them.

Alast

This is madness: https://www.irishexaminer.com/news/arid-40260536.html?fbclid=IwAR3Gas-OcZGhkcMJKYNtVojZYIhXBpK8Kd_Ky1Ep3qnFBYS1IJc3KqHvfMM

Travel is already down by 95-97% compared to pre-covid. Most people coming in to Ireland are probably living here, insane to force Irish citizens and residents to pay for MHQ, if you can safely quarantine in your home.

Allinall

faceman wrote: »

Was chatting to an Irish legal person friend about the “Dubai 2”. He is of the belief they have a very strong case on technical grounds and if they win it will open the floodgates to further challenges. Seemingly “absolute liability” is at play here. You can’t commit a criminal offence if you didn’t intend to break the law. It was quite technical how he explained.

He is also of the belief that they will get compensation for illegal detention as the state acted beyond its powers.

It will require a judicial review and will take time however. But if they win, it could mean other victims of MHQ can roll in behind them.

Sounds like rubbish to me.

ignorance of the law is no defence......, and all that.

Alast

Alast wrote: »

This is madness: https://www.irishexaminer.com/news/arid-40260536.html?fbclid=IwAR3Gas-OcZGhkcMJKYNtVojZYIhXBpK8Kd_Ky1Ep3qnFBYS1IJc3KqHvfMM

Travel is already down by 95-97% compared to pre-covid. Most people coming in to Ireland are probably living here, insane to force Irish citizens and residents to pay for MHQ, if you can safely quarantine in your home.

Quoting the Article:
Meanwhile, Higher Education Minister Simon Harris said students returning home from Erasmus programmes should face hotel quarantining if more countries are added to the list.

That is such an unfair burden to put on students/their families.

faceman

Allinall wrote: »

Sounds like rubbish to me.

ignorance of the law is no defence......, and all that.

Thats not their defence. That’s a different concept to absolute liability.

In some circumstances absolute liability is unconstitutional in Ireland.

Wallander

Alast wrote: »

Quoting the Article:
Meanwhile, Higher Education Minister Simon Harris said students returning home from Erasmus programmes should face hotel quarantining if more countries are added to the list.

That is such an unfair burden to put on students/their families.

Also would likely collapse demand for Irish students going on Erasmus programmes next year, students will want to pull out. Same for those considering coming here.

expectationlost

Alast wrote: »

Quoting the Article:
Meanwhile, Higher Education Minister Simon Harris said students returning home from Erasmus programmes should face hotel quarantining if more countries are added to the list.

That is such an unfair burden to put on students/their families.

whats it been like doing Erasmus this past year?

Jizique

Alast wrote: »

Quoting the Article:
Meanwhile, Higher Education Minister Simon Harris said students returning home from Erasmus programmes should face hotel quarantining if more countries are added to the list.

That is such an unfair burden to put on students/their families.

It is nuts - 12 months later and we have just started thinking about this. Whether Harris likes it or not, Ireland is a small open economy that relies on its links to Europe to ensure the high number of foreign corporates have successfully set up here; if they keep this up, there will be a queue of senior managers looking to move their businesses back to mainland Europe to get away from the madness that is being inflicted on them and their families

faceman

faceman wrote: »

You can’t commit a criminal offence if you didn’t intend to break the law.

'Jesus was that the speed limit Guard? I'd no idea!'.

saabsaab

Jizique wrote: »

It is nuts - 12 months later and we have just started thinking about this. Whether Harris likes it or not, Ireland is a small open economy that relies on its links to Europe to ensure the high number of foreign corporates have successfully set up here; if they keep this up, there will be a queue of senior managers looking to move their businesses back to mainland Europe to get away from the madness that is being inflicted on them and their families

It won't continue forever and it's not like it's not as bad or even better elsewhere.

Alast

expectationlost wrote: »

whats it been like doing Erasmus this past year?

I'm not a student so couldn't tell you

ninebeanrows

saabsaab wrote: »

It won't continue forever and it's not like it's not as bad or even better elsewhere.

How does one define if there is lots of variants of concern in one country or not? What is the level of variant of concern needed to have it listed?

What makes a variant worse than another variant? Has there been any evidence vaccines dont prevent severe illness or death in any variant?

It all seems extremely arbitrary and open to manipulation.

There are no clear metrics.

How can a country get removed from the list? The variant just isn't going to disappear from the acountry in the next 6 months.

ninebeanrows

I have no problem with them saying countries with say a figure of 500 per 100k 14 day rolling average must enter hotel quarantine and this list will be updated weekly.

The variant thing is just an absolutely impossibility to measure and opens the system to being manipulated by people who seek to go the zero covid route and ban travel to this country for the medium term.

JojoLoca

Alast wrote: »

This is madness: https://www.irishexaminer.com/news/arid-40260536.html?fbclid=IwAR3Gas-OcZGhkcMJKYNtVojZYIhXBpK8Kd_Ky1Ep3qnFBYS1IJc3KqHvfMM

Travel is already down by 95-97% compared to pre-covid. Most people coming in to Ireland are probably living here, insane to force Irish citizens and residents to pay for MHQ, if you can safely quarantine in your home.

So last week there was a strong opposition and concern over expanding MHQ with EU countries and now it sounds like they are all agreeing on it?

NSAman

So even if you are vaccinated, get a negative test result before coming home, they now want you to quarantine for two weeks in a hotel?

ninebeanrows

NSAman wrote: »

So even if you are vaccinated, get a negative test result before coming home, they now want you to quarantine for two weeks in a hotel?

I am hopeful the system will be more nuanced when it goes to cabinet next week....but you never know.

The bottom line is Donnelly and co want to appease the Zero Covid and close our borders populists...so it will be put across strongly but hopefully the details will be less restrictive...

I am thinking something like your resleased to home quarantine on day 5 if you have a negative test.

And a automatic expiry of the advice after a certain date,

these may be some of the middle grounds met.

saabsaab

ninebeanrows wrote: »

How does one define if there is lots of variants of concern in one country or not? What is the level of variant of concern needed to have it listed?

What makes a variant worse than another variant? Has there been any evidence vaccines dont prevent severe illness or death in any variant?

It all seems extremely arbitrary and open to manipulation.

There are no clear metrics.

How can a country get removed from the list? The variant just isn't going to disappear from the acountry in the next 6 months.

There is a strong chance that a new variant could cause havoc with vaccination programmes. Best to delay reduce to a minimum international travel so any intake can be traced quickly and stopped.

Linsten to the Kingston Mills RTE I posted earlier.

caveat emptor

Yeah the latest one now is the Indian double mutant. Doubly worrying. Is India on the list. They should be.

https://twitter.com/ArisKatzourakis/status/1379501050747613190?s=20

saabsaab

A more deadly variant is most likely to arise in a country where there is high density, little control and large populations. You can work out the places where it will come from.

saabsaab

Away With The Fairies wrote: »

And variants not being picked up by PCR as well.

True see below


https://www.irishtimes.com/news/health/breton-variant-causes-concern-as-it-may-not-be-easily-picked-up-in-tests-1.4528628

Kaisr Sose

faceman wrote: »

Seemingly “absolute liability” is at play here. You can’t commit a criminal offence if you didn’t intend to break the law. It was quite technical how he explained.

He is also of the belief that they will get compensation for illegal detention as the state acted beyond its powers.

It will require a judicial review and will take time however. But if they win, it could mean other victims of MHQ can roll in behind them.

I don't get it also. Let's say the charge is assault.

You are charged with assault causing injury but you get off because it was not your intention to assault the person? But the issue remains that you assaulted the person.

There is also the charge of theft by finding. You find something on a road or wherever and take it knowing its not your property. You are seen / identified and charged with theft by finding. In court you argue you found it/did not steal it/ never meant to steal it but you are convicted of theft by finding.

And so it goes on..

They were detained because they refused to go into quarantine. It was not a random detention. The ammendment to the Health Act provides for arrest and imprisonment or fine or both for refusing to quarantine or leaving quarantine. Their detention was in line with that. You can't release them on bail back to liberty as that makes a mockery of the charge of refusing to quarantine. They would not loose the assumption of innocence by being detained, although by their own admissions, they clearly did refuse to enter mandatory hotel quarantine.

A judicial review will take ages and they don't come cheap. This whole thing stinks and the only ones that will benefit will be the legal profession employed to argue the case.